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 godardc wrote:
Have you tried SWS ? I can't find a good reason to use them. Except with flamers, but they would still be 6 T3 5+ guys with short ranged weapons...
And I was thinking about a priest + 6 crusaders as a little "counter assault" force in my lines.

The only uses I've seen is Elysians dropping in plasma, and Valhallans storing them in chimeras and then popping them out to fire into combat. For most other regiments it's better to just deepstrike in Stormtroopers if you want a lot of plasma in one spot.

Considering souping up my Catachan CP Battery to handle Orcs and Tyranids a bit better. I am thinking Company Commander, Straken, Ministorum Priest, and 4x10 Guardsmen with the Sergeants carrying Bolters.

Questions:
1) Is the lone Mortar team worth taking still? (I lose 2 attacks with this setup.)
2) What is up with the Ministorum Priest rules? Does the AM Codex really just let me take a Priest with Laspistol, Autogun, Chainsword, and K&F?

How you lose 2 attacks?

Two Guardsmen become one model. So instead of two models with 3 attacks each, it becomes one model with 4 attacks.

 godardc wrote:
Have you tried SWS ? I can't find a good reason to use them. Except with flamers, but they would still be 6 T3 5+ guys with short ranged weapons...
And I was thinking about a priest + 6 crusaders as a little "counter assault" force in my lines.

I've used a few SWS recently and I either dropped them out of a Valk or popped them out of a Chimera. I like to use a command squad with 4 meltas and a SWS with all demo charges with an officer to let them reroll to hit. Using the grenade stratagem is the only viable way for multiple demo charges to work, though. The benefit of dropping them out of a Valk should be pretty obvious. There aren't too many things that can handle 3d3 demo charges and 4 BS3+ meltas all rerolling 1s to hit ... I use this to strike at my enemy's heart and decimate something they thought was fairly safe or out of LoS of my firebase. Then I just charge the Chimera and SWS into a vehicle or anything to tie stuff up. I run my Catachans with usually at least 3 or 4 Chimeras/Taurox and a hefty squad of Bullgryn so often times even my command squad will find itself surviving due to all of my infantry and Bullgryn smashing into their lines at the same time with tons of support characters.

I thought only one of them could take a demo charge ?

Anyone have an opinion on the best loadout for a Ministorum Priest?

I am leaning toward Laspistol+Autogun+Chainsword. But what about Bolt Pistol+Bolter?

godardc wrote:I thought only one of them could take a demo charge ?

You can take up to 3 per SWS, but due to grenade rules can only throw one at a time without a strategem.

Suzuteo wrote:Anyone have an opinion on the best loadout for a Ministorum Priest?

I am leaning toward Laspistol+Autogun+Chainsword. But what about Bolt Pistol+Bolter?

Why would you bother with a bolter/bolt pistol? What I mean is what kind of actual benefit does that provide?

If you want better shooting you want plasma pistol/plasma gun. You don't even need to overcharge it. If you want cheap effective shooting the shotgun/autogun do about the same.

But he's a character designed purely for CQC and buffing units in CQC. He shouldn't be shooting, he should be busting heads, or just behind people busting heads so he's not killed too early. I'd say best bet is probably something like a power maul, power axe, or just keep him with a chainsword.

Suzuteo wrote:
Considering souping up my Catachan CP Battery to handle Orcs and Tyranids a bit better. I am thinking Company Commander, Straken, Ministorum Priest, and 4x10 Guardsmen with the Sergeants carrying Bolters.

Questions:
1) Is the lone Mortar team worth taking still? (I lose 2 attacks with this setup.)
2) What is up with the Ministorum Priest rules? Does the AM Codex really just let me take a Priest with Laspistol, Autogun, Chainsword, and K&F?

Catachans run best as a naked squad - I do give the sarg a boltgun though. You could also go for a plasma pistol if you have extra points. No reason to take a HWT though.

Suzuteo wrote:
Anyone have an opinion on the best loadout for a Ministorum Priest?

I am leaning toward Laspistol+Autogun+Chainsword. But what about Bolt Pistol+Bolter?

I usually just throw his krak or frag grenade if he's not in combat. And I've tried out the one relic on mine recently, the blade of conquest. I normally give a CC the Mamorph Tuskblade and Straken does his thing. Those 3 combined can wreck anything without low invuln saves or toughness greater than 6.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

godardc wrote:I thought only one of them could take a demo charge ?

You can take up to 3 per SWS, but due to grenade rules can only throw one at a time without a strategem.

Wow, I was so blind, thank you !
If I am not mistaking it, demo charges have to be taken from index ?

 Colonel Cross wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
Anyone have an opinion on the best loadout for a Ministorum Priest?

I am leaning toward Laspistol+Autogun+Chainsword. But what about Bolt Pistol+Bolter?

I usually just throw his krak or frag grenade if he's not in combat. And I've tried out the one relic on mine recently, the blade of conquest. I normally give a CC the Mamorph Tuskblade and Straken does his thing. Those 3 combined can wreck anything without low invuln saves or toughness greater than 6.

Interesting. So are you taking both Power Sword relics? While really cool, I worry about the impact these models would actually have. The biggest threats by and far are still enemies with powerful shooting like Castellans or durability and mobility like Wave Serpents.

Has anyone had any success with Nork Deddog?

They're not very good since they're still just Guardsmen. The problem with them becomes very apparent when they don't kill what they were launched at. They'll die to just about anything and in melee the characters are extremely vulnerable. It's still fun though. With lower amounts of CPs now, it's definitely not worth it.

Question about scions.

To feild scion command squad I have to take 1x tempestor prime per? Does taurox prime have any restriction?

If that is the case scion troop squads are actually better.

What is best build for taurox prime? Gat/auto/storm bolter?

Suzuteo wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
Anyone have an opinion on the best loadout for a Ministorum Priest?

I am leaning toward Laspistol+Autogun+Chainsword. But what about Bolt Pistol+Bolter?

I usually just throw his krak or frag grenade if he's not in combat. And I've tried out the one relic on mine recently, the blade of conquest. I normally give a CC the Mamorph Tuskblade and Straken does his thing. Those 3 combined can wreck anything without low invuln saves or toughness greater than 6.

Interesting. So are you taking both Power Sword relics? While really cool, I worry about the impact these models would actually have. The biggest threats by and far are still enemies with powerful shooting like Castellans or durability and mobility like Wave Serpent

I'd like to throw in my 2 cents regarding this topic. I have quite a bit of playtesting experience with these relic swords.

I'm running a Catachan Brigade with Straken and 2 Company Commanders as my 3 HQs, each wielding a relic sword. (and of course a Priest in my Elites)

After the last Big FAQ where command point regeneration was changed, I stopped taking Kurov's Aquila as my free Relic and started taking Blade of Conquest, and spend 1 CP for an extra Relic, the Tuskblade.

With this setup, Straken has SIX attacks at Str 7 -1 D2, and the CCs have 5 attacks each at Str 6, one at -4 Dd3, the other at -3 D2.

For less than 200 points, they cover my mandatory HQs to fill out a brigade, provide 6 Orders for my mandatory 6 Troops choices, and are a miniature close combat deathstar.

The key to getting effectiveness out of them is to use them defensively. They are for counter-charging. As I stated above, their damage output is quite ferocious due to the extra attacks and relics, so you need to make sure they actually get to attack. This means being the one to make the charge and not receive the charge.

I have found the best way to do this is hang these characters back behind the front line. Let some Infantry Squads take the initial charge and either get wiped out or locked in combat. Either way, the close combat threat will now be standing in front of Straken and the CCs. In your following turn, you move them up and charge in to save the remnants of the Infantry Squads.

I frequently go against Ynnari with Shining Spears that fly 44 inches across the table and first-turn charging me. Their assault gets absorbed by the Infantry, and then this little trio of Commanders have single-handedly wiped out the full 9 Shining Spears squad in one devastating counter-charge.

Again, the key is getting the charge off. These guys' offensive output is much stronger than their defenses. If they receive a charge, they can easily die before having a chance to attack. But if you pull it off correctly, they can do extreme damage. They punch much much higher than their weight and points cost would suggest and are well worth it!

 Xenomancers wrote:
Question about scions.

To feild scion command squad I have to take 1x tempestor prime per? Does taurox prime have any restriction?

If that is the case scion troop squads are actually better.

What is best build for taurox prime? Gat/auto/storm bolter?

Taurox has no such limitations.
yes you need to have 1 Tempestor Prime per Scion Command Squad you bring.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Question about scions.

To feild scion command squad I have to take 1x tempestor prime per? Does taurox prime have any restriction?

If that is the case scion troop squads are actually better.

What is best build for taurox prime? Gat/auto/storm bolter?

Taurox Prime follows transport rules, so you can take as many as you have non-transport units. For example, if you have one Scion squad, you can take one Taurox Prime, if you have two Scion squads, you can take two Taurox Primes.

Taurox Primes are gun platforms, as well. The missile launcher is too expensive now. Just like with Scion squads, you want to specialize Taurox Primes. Storm Bolters, Galtling cannons, and hot-shot volley guns for chaff chewing shots. Battle Cannon, autocannons and Heavy Bolter for MEQ/vehicles.

I've got a small Death Korps army, and it really bothers me that the Krieg get no benefits whatsoever to their artillery.

To rectify this I've been thinking of playing all of my infantry as Krieg, but run my Earthshakers and Cyclops as Catachans.

The best way to do that seems to be a Spearhead, but then that requires me to take an HQ choice. I'd rather not use a Company Commander, since that gets messy with it not being a Krieg unit, but I'm not sure what else would be appropriate. I'd rather not use a named character like Yarrick.

Are the Lord Commissar or Primaris Psyker of any use to a Krieg army? Are there any other ways to make this work that I'm missing?

 Apple Peel wrote:


Taurox Prime follows transport rules, so you can take as many as you have non-transport units. For example, if you have one Scion squad, you can take one Taurox Prime, if you have two Scion squads, you can take two Taurox Primes.

Well technically you don't need any Scions to take a Taurox Prime, just any other unit (including tanks and HQ's). Of course only MT guys can be transported in it, but you don't need them to be able to take one.

If You need single HQ for Catachan spearhead why not use Sly? For 65 points you have really nice deepstriking unit. 8 shots wounding on 2 or almost guaranted charge for 6 attacks.Do not forget to say/yell "AAAAAAAAAAaaAAAAAA" while rolling charge for him.

If you really do not want Sly (why?) then psyker. Psychic Maelstorm or Barrier is great. Nightshroud for bigger units also cool. And of course deny the witch so you can save one of this pesky smites from enemy

catbarf wrote:
I've got a small Death Korps army, and it really bothers me that the Krieg get no benefits whatsoever to their artillery.

To rectify this I've been thinking of playing all of my infantry as Krieg, but run my Earthshakers and Cyclops as Catachans.

The best way to do that seems to be a Spearhead, but then that requires me to take an HQ choice. I'd rather not use a Company Commander, since that gets messy with it not being a Krieg unit, but I'm not sure what else would be appropriate. I'd rather not use a named character like Yarrick.

Are the Lord Commissar or Primaris Psyker of any use to a Krieg army? Are there any other ways to make this work that I'm missing?

Tank commander? DKoK get zero bonuses for their vehicles anyway, so that gives you a useful regimental trait as well as filling the HQ slot.

catbarf wrote:
I've got a small Death Korps army, and it really bothers me that the Krieg get no benefits whatsoever to their artillery.

To rectify this I've been thinking of playing all of my infantry as Krieg, but run my Earthshakers and Cyclops as Catachans.

The best way to do that seems to be a Spearhead, but then that requires me to take an HQ choice. I'd rather not use a Company Commander, since that gets messy with it not being a Krieg unit, but I'm not sure what else would be appropriate. I'd rather not use a named character like Yarrick.

Are the Lord Commissar or Primaris Psyker of any use to a Krieg army? Are there any other ways to make this work that I'm missing?

A Lord Commissar could work. Not as expensive as something like a tank commander. Also, you can kit them out as pretty decent melee fighters, and they can work with dkok fine. I guess they are slightly less useful with dkok because of their morale rules, but still not completely useless.

A primaris psyker is useful in any army really.

 Lothar wrote:
Best regiment is Catachan, by far.

Not only those infamous S4 A3 LD8 guardsmen, but also reroll attacks artilery and tanks. And they have Harker.

Catachans are the reason so many people cry very loudly to nerf the infantry squad and the imperial guard in general. Dont blame them, because the infantry man for 4 points really is a joke, even with the added cost of straken and priest.

Sadly the other regiments now never make it to the top tournament positions. Not counting the heroic 32 mortar cadia for command points...

So, if you are looking for strong regiment, catachans is the best choice.

Yeah, the more I research the more I am inclined to agree. Its only ever catachan infantry melee, or the loyal 32 CP Cadian farm.

Maybe they should just make the other regiments better to make it harder to choose, rather than gak on the good stuff.

Valhallan, maybe have them get the old Commissar Conscript rule for morale (pre nerf)
Voystrayans, maybe everyone gets hot shot las guns, since they take better care of equipment.
Tallarn, let them move any unit 6" with an order after shooting.
Tempesuts-bs3+ across all models for all weapons, don't have the increase plasma cost, they can take it at 7 instead of 17 points.
Modrians-overwatch on 5s if it didn't move the prior phase. (basically the Tau tactic)
Armageddon-reroll wound rolls of 1 with rapid fire weapons.
Catachan and Cadian leave as is.

Really dreaming...
Elysians-Deep Strike Turn 1 anywhere on board (including outside deployment zone, more than 9" from enemy, basically old early 8th ed DS rules).
DKoK-Not sure hear, maybe better armor save, or always treat as in cover if the unit did not move. Artillary buffs?

 Dynas wrote:
Its only ever catachan infantry melee, or the loyal 32 CP Cadian farm.

Sounds like someone needs to try JSJ Tallarn tanks on a table with a decent amount of terrain.

Great insights here on Catachans... I've also been looking at some combination of Straken, Harker, Catachan infantry, HW squads, and Bullgryns/Ogryns, probably at the Battalion level based on the models I have. Any advice on how big to go, where to start, relics to add to non-named characters, sweet stratagem synergies, etc.? I'm mostly looking to get some classic models back into play alongside a battalion of Tempestus and/or my main Adepta Sororitas army, both of which struggle in the melee/screening department and the long range AT department. Thanks!

So GSC neophytes were moved to 5 points... So it means that guardsmen are going to 5ppm :(. My question: is this change making veterans more viable assuming they stay at 6ppm? Now it will be 20% more points, not 50% .

I do not know if +1BS make price hike acceptable but possibility to take 2 more special weapons is nice... And better solution to hide HWT inside

Part of me likes the thought of sniper/lascannon veterans in the rear lines. Tougher than ratlings and you don't lose important models from the start.

 Dynas wrote:


Yeah, the more I research the more I am inclined to agree. Its only ever catachan infantry melee, or the loyal 32 CP Cadian farm.

Maybe they should just make the other regiments better to make it harder to choose, rather than gak on the good stuff.

Valhallan, maybe have them get the old Commissar Conscript rule for morale (pre nerf)
Voystrayans, maybe everyone gets hot shot las guns, since they take better care of equipment.
Tallarn, let them move any unit 6" with an order after shooting.
Tempesuts-bs3+ across all models for all weapons, don't have the increase plasma cost, they can take it at 7 instead of 17 points.
Modrians-overwatch on 5s if it didn't move the prior phase. (basically the Tau tactic)
Armageddon-reroll wound rolls of 1 with rapid fire weapons.
Catachan and Cadian leave as is.

Really dreaming...
Elysians-Deep Strike Turn 1 anywhere on board (including outside deployment zone, more than 9" from enemy, basically old early 8th ed DS rules).
DKoK-Not sure hear, maybe better armor save, or always treat as in cover if the unit did not move. Artillary buffs?

The other regiments don't need nearly that level of bonkers changes. The Vostroyans one you proposed would make IG absolutely bonkers, while some of your other changes make a regiment worse, like the mordian one.

The regiments really don't need any changes, I would say they are all playable. The "worst" if I had to pick one would be Armageddon, and even they have some good abilities like the 18" rapid fire. If you are struggling with one of the other regiments I would suggest reading their rules again, they all have moments where they shine, they're just not as readily apparently because many of their bonuses don't really translate into mathhammer like Cadians and Catachans do.

Valhallans have the best morale rules, have tanks that can fight longer, and can shoot into combat.

Vostroyans really benefit tanks like punishers or baneblade with their increased range and +1bs strat, as well as having an increased rapid fire and range for their infantry.

Mordian have +1 ld and better overwatch, with a single tank able to hit on 4+s if played correctly. Their order allows them to snipe characters and their strat allows them to have bonkers levels of firepower, a great hidden gem.

Armageddon has 18" rapid fire, a couple of abilities that allow them to better use transports that would really shine if the vehicles themselves weren't kind of weak, and technically the most durable vehicles we have.

Tallarn is highly mobile, both with their basic traits, their strategem, and their order. They can be very powerful if played correctly and allow you to have a surprisingly mobile tank line.

Stormtroopers still have some very powerful abilities. They are still priced very competitively for what they are, their only really weakness being how they're forced to wait till turn 2. Their regiment trait gives you more shots as long as you aren't running into negative modifiers, and their order allows you to reroll wounds which is situational but a good tool to have. Their strat allows them to counter enemy deepstrike and their relic gives you additional orders without potentially spending CP and they have a good transport option.

None of them are quite as idiot proof as Catachan and cadia, but if you are smart and build your army with your trait in mind they all have merits and reason to exist. I've run all the traits at least once out of curiosity and have yet to see one even remotely as bad as some of the garbage poor codexes like Admech or space marines are forced to put up with.


As for the whole guardsmen going up a point thing, I don't see it being a big issue to IG players. For people just splashing us in for CP it'll be annoying, but even infantry spam players are going to see their list lose what, 100pts? That's maybe a basilisk or something, hardly the end of the world. Yes it sucks but everyone else is getting hit with it so it's not like chaos cultists are going to start outnumbering us and orks already got their price hike as well.

In regards to vets, you now pay 1pt for the privilege of better gear and +1 B's, with 0 survivability bonuses. On top of that you can only take 30. They still have the same issues they always did, they die to a stiff breeze for their price. They will need a transport or terrain to hide, and you'll need to move them into the open to get use from them. That limits them to 2 different roles. Euther a backline fire support unit, where you're probably better off spending points on tanks or specialized units like ratlings. Or you can make them a fire brigade style unit to counter a breakthrough or take advantage of a weakspot in the enemy line, in which case they compete with stormtroopers who can appear wherever you want on turns 2-3. Their biggest advantage is that they can take advantage of regiment abilities, meaning Valhallan ones can fire into combat, mordians can have theirs snipe with plasma and have exploding amount of shots, Vostroyans can hit at logner range on 2's, etc. I dunno, I'm sure there's ways to make them work, but nothing is really jumping out at me as amazing at the moment.

I'm considering 2x Tallarn melta vets with a commander, ambushing on turn 2. Plasma would probably be better, with 6 plasma guns and 3 pistols, but I have already used all of those models in basic infantry squads. You can bring more units with the Dagger of Tu'Sakh or some plasma rough riders if you want, although I try not to overdo reserves. Seems like a nice little force to pressure the backfield. Scions are probably better with obsec, but are more expensive and not as mobile.

Yea, still they will most likely only get to shoot once.
Opponent will most likely just slaughter them. t3 5+ models are really squishy.

I preferred option of sniper/lascannon vets.
For mobile stuff scions are plain better and only 3pts more expensive per model, but able to take more special weapons (2 per 5 plus PP on sgt) more armor and better doctrine for deepstrike/shoot/die stuff