Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?

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**Unit1126PLL**

Woahwoahwoah!

Everyone who are saying that the superheavies are troublesome doesn't realize how actually good they are.

They do have the -1 to hit when moving, true, but they are absolutely fantastic at melee and desire to be in melee where they are immune to enemy shooting but can themselves continue to fire to essentially full effectiveness.

The only one I wouldn't move into melee with is the Shadowsword but it's primary armament has a +1 to hit against its intended target types anyways, mitigating the -1.

**Evillain09**

Kaeldran wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
Evillain09 wrote:
Hello all,

I am struggling to find reliable and efficient tank killing other than melta guns on scions.

It doesn't exist in this edition, because tanks are much more durable.

6 lascannon impacts would do the trick, or two times this number of manticore misiles impacts, or four times this number of autocannon impacts, they are all reliable and efficient tank killing options. IG have plenty options about it.
But 12 lascannon are about 450 points, 4 manticores about 530... At this range of points you can also deploy a shadowsword, that is also, another way of kill an enemy tank per turn with some reliability.

A turox prime could be an even more efficient tank killer with hotshot volley and gatling, at close range and stationary, 3 of them kill a tank at average for les than 300 points, of course is hard to be at 12" of the enemy without any movement, but on the other hand, they are at the same time excellent anti-orde machines and fairly resistant for their cost, and versatilty comes with a price (not in points in this case).

And yes, cuatrimelta tempestus command squad are even more efficient, at 84 points the unit, two of them could deep strike and destroy a tank with reliability at just 170 points, ultra efficient, but after that, if they can shoot other things, is only because your opponent is doing very very weird things...

Are those options efficient? Well, yes, in 8° ed you will usually need between 2 and 4 times the points of the víctim in specialized weaponrry to kill it in one turn, so to kill tanks of more than 100 points you will have to invest in anti tank about 300-600, thats sound reasonable.
There are few armys, if any, with such a plethora of efficient ways of destroying enemy tanks.

Thanks for your opinons. I haven't played much, so I'm basing my information on math hammer. Maybe I am underestimating estimating my firepower. The lists I am making have 2xManticores, Taruox Primes, Vets with plasma and MG, Bullgyrns and Scions to deal with Tank/MCs.

I am super excited for this edition, I just think it will be really hard to build a list that can go through a tournament and be ready to face both an all Mechanized army and an Infantry army. But that's what I love about 8th, at least the idea of 8th. SO many armies seem improved that it should create more diversity and that makes the game better. Just harder for list builders

**Kaeldran**

iddy00711 wrote:
Mavnas wrote:
I think snipers are overrated since they're single shot and will have trouble putting wounds on anything major. Against IG though, I could see someone getting lucky and sniping a key commisar right before they unload one a blob or two.

Word on the street is that 2 Vindicares is a thing now. Ratlings are good but it all depends on what type of system you're playing in (ETC vs ITC etc), as they are an easy kill point.

Although unless you're investing heavily, snipers won't actually do that much (1-2 weak characters a game IF you can draw line of sight etc), what they are good at is forcing your opponent to play conservatively.

180 pts in two vindicares are not such a heavy inversion, I think, and they can kill with some reliability a weak character per turn, or a big one every 2-3 turns, two in a game, and that is pretty heavy damage for some armies.
From afar, nearly invulnerables to non mellee retaliation thanks to be characters, even they can deploy from deep strike to ensure LOS to their targets... certainly disrruptive for some armies very dependant of auras.
Another thing other armies strugle to achieve. All have some kind of sniper, cheaper ones (ratlings are among the best point wise anyway), can do more damage for 180 pts, but not such good positioning and with that invulnerability to retaliation that let vindicares to shoot more turns.

Yes, I'm agree with you, they are gonna be part of the meta.

**necron99**

I got my first 8E game in last night against a guy who only ever plays Eldar and is very good at it (although this was only his 3rd 8E game). I made a ton of tactical mistakes, errors in my list, just bad all around but I did learn a lot. My biggest problem against his Eldar was conceal and his rangers. Way too many 2+ cover saves. I haven't had a chance to really absorb the new AM rules but what tools do we have to get around 2+ cover saves in shooting?

**lash92**

Evillain09 wrote:
Kaeldran wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
Evillain09 wrote:
Hello all,

I am struggling to find reliable and efficient tank killing other than melta guns on scions.

It doesn't exist in this edition, because tanks are much more durable.

6 lascannon impacts would do the trick, or two times this number of manticore misiles impacts, or four times this number of autocannon impacts, they are all reliable and efficient tank killing options. IG have plenty options about it.
But 12 lascannon are about 450 points, 4 manticores about 530... At this range of points you can also deploy a shadowsword, that is also, another way of kill an enemy tank per turn with some reliability.

A turox prime could be an even more efficient tank killer with hotshot volley and gatling, at close range and stationary, 3 of them kill a tank at average for les than 300 points, of course is hard to be at 12" of the enemy without any movement, but on the other hand, they are at the same time excellent anti-orde machines and fairly resistant for their cost, and versatilty comes with a price (not in points in this case).

And yes, cuatrimelta tempestus command squad are even more efficient, at 84 points the unit, two of them could deep strike and destroy a tank with reliability at just 170 points, ultra efficient, but after that, if they can shoot other things, is only because your opponent is doing very very weird things...

Are those options efficient? Well, yes, in 8° ed you will usually need between 2 and 4 times the points of the víctim in specialized weaponrry to kill it in one turn, so to kill tanks of more than 100 points you will have to invest in anti tank about 300-600, thats sound reasonable.
There are few armys, if any, with such a plethora of efficient ways of destroying enemy tanks.

Thanks for your opinons. I haven't played much, so I'm basing my information on math hammer. Maybe I am underestimating estimating my firepower. The lists I am making have 2xManticores, Taruox Primes, Vets with plasma and MG, Bullgyrns and Scions to deal with Tank/MCs.

I am super excited for this edition, I just think it will be really hard to build a list that can go through a tournament and be ready to face both an all Mechanized army and an Infantry army. But that's what I love about 8th, at least the idea of 8th. SO many armies seem improved that it should create more diversity and that makes the game better. Just harder for list builders

How big is your list in total?

**Leth**

necron99 wrote:
I got my first 8E game in last night against a guy who only ever plays Eldar and is very good at it (although this was only his 3rd 8E game). I made a ton of tactical mistakes, errors in my list, just bad all around but I did learn a lot. My biggest problem against his Eldar was conceal and his rangers. Way too many 2+ cover saves. I haven't had a chance to really absorb the new AM rules but what tools do we have to get around 2+ cover saves in shooting?

Anything with -ap would be pretty good at helping against that.

Cover is negated by -1 or -2 depending on how good their cover is.

**necron99**

lash92 wrote:
Evillain09 wrote:
Kaeldran wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
Evillain09 wrote:
Hello all,

I am struggling to find reliable and efficient tank killing other than melta guns on scions.

It doesn't exist in this edition, because tanks are much more durable.

6 lascannon impacts would do the trick, or two times this number of manticore misiles impacts, or four times this number of autocannon impacts, they are all reliable and efficient tank killing options. IG have plenty options about it.
But 12 lascannon are about 450 points, 4 manticores about 530... At this range of points you can also deploy a shadowsword, that is also, another way of kill an enemy tank per turn with some reliability.

A turox prime could be an even more efficient tank killer with hotshot volley and gatling, at close range and stationary, 3 of them kill a tank at average for les than 300 points, of course is hard to be at 12" of the enemy without any movement, but on the other hand, they are at the same time excellent anti-orde machines and fairly resistant for their cost, and versatilty comes with a price (not in points in this case).

And yes, cuatrimelta tempestus command squad are even more efficient, at 84 points the unit, two of them could deep strike and destroy a tank with reliability at just 170 points, ultra efficient, but after that, if they can shoot other things, is only because your opponent is doing very very weird things...

Are those options efficient? Well, yes, in 8° ed you will usually need between 2 and 4 times the points of the víctim in specialized weaponrry to kill it in one turn, so to kill tanks of more than 100 points you will have to invest in anti tank about 300-600, thats sound reasonable.
There are few armys, if any, with such a plethora of efficient ways of destroying enemy tanks.

Thanks for your opinons. I haven't played much, so I'm basing my information on math hammer. Maybe I am underestimating estimating my firepower. The lists I am making have 2xManticores, Taruox Primes, Vets with plasma and MG, Bullgyrns and Scions to deal with Tank/MCs.

I am super excited for this edition, I just think it will be really hard to build a list that can go through a tournament and be ready to face both an all Mechanized army and an Infantry army. But that's what I love about 8th, at least the idea of 8th. SO many armies seem improved that it should create more diversity and that makes the game better. Just harder for list builders

How big is your list in total?

From what I found in my game last night was that, while killing tanks outright is preferable, reducing their ability to move and shoot can be a force multiplier in the opposite direction. Would it be better to destroy a tank a turn or neuter three tanks a turn?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leth wrote:
necron99 wrote:
I got my first 8E game in last night against a guy who only ever plays Eldar and is very good at it (although this was only his 3rd 8E game). I made a ton of tactical mistakes, errors in my list, just bad all around but I did learn a lot. My biggest problem against his Eldar was conceal and his rangers. Way too many 2+ cover saves. I haven't had a chance to really absorb the new AM rules but what tools do we have to get around 2+ cover saves in shooting?

Anything with -ap would be pretty good at helping against that.

Cover is negated by -1 or -2 depending on how good their cover is.

Ah, gotcha - I'm still figuring out how cover works and the new weapon stat lines but I see what you're saying now.

**mahddoc**

What are good options for Fast Attack slots? I don't have Sentinels so these as cheap fillers are out. I already have taken two Hellhounds and i am looking for something else, even from another Imperium army. Anyone got ideas for what to take to maybe fill a hole in a TAC army?

**Leth**

mahddoc wrote:
What are good options for Fast Attack slots? I don't have Sentinels so these as cheap fillers are out. I already have taken two Hellhounds and i am looking for something else, even from another Imperium army. Anyone got ideas for what to take to maybe fill a hole in a TAC army?

I am a fan of rough riders. Solid counter assault unit with their hunting lances, especially if you got a priest nearby. I want more of them in my list but sadly I run DKOK and it will be awhile before I can buy a second squad haha

**BunkhouseBuster**

So I have an important question that I haven't seen answered on this thread:

How about Ogryns and Bullgryns? I know that they are better just from not having to worry about Instant Death, but I haven't seen anything really mentioned about them yet.

And what loadout would be better for Bullgryns? Can't they mix up their weapons and shields now? Like, taking their maul with the Slabshield?

**Evillain09**

lash92 wrote:
Evillain09 wrote:
Kaeldran wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
Evillain09 wrote:
Hello all,

I am struggling to find reliable and efficient tank killing other than melta guns on scions.

It doesn't exist in this edition, because tanks are much more durable.

6 lascannon impacts would do the trick, or two times this number of manticore misiles impacts, or four times this number of autocannon impacts, they are all reliable and efficient tank killing options. IG have plenty options about it.
But 12 lascannon are about 450 points, 4 manticores about 530... At this range of points you can also deploy a shadowsword, that is also, another way of kill an enemy tank per turn with some reliability.

A turox prime could be an even more efficient tank killer with hotshot volley and gatling, at close range and stationary, 3 of them kill a tank at average for les than 300 points, of course is hard to be at 12" of the enemy without any movement, but on the other hand, they are at the same time excellent anti-orde machines and fairly resistant for their cost, and versatilty comes with a price (not in points in this case).

And yes, cuatrimelta tempestus command squad are even more efficient, at 84 points the unit, two of them could deep strike and destroy a tank with reliability at just 170 points, ultra efficient, but after that, if they can shoot other things, is only because your opponent is doing very very weird things...

Are those options efficient? Well, yes, in 8° ed you will usually need between 2 and 4 times the points of the víctim in specialized weaponrry to kill it in one turn, so to kill tanks of more than 100 points you will have to invest in anti tank about 300-600, thats sound reasonable.
There are few armys, if any, with such a plethora of efficient ways of destroying enemy tanks.

Thanks for your opinons. I haven't played much, so I'm basing my information on math hammer. Maybe I am underestimating estimating my firepower. The lists I am making have 2xManticores, Taruox Primes, Vets with plasma and MG, Bullgyrns and Scions to deal with Tank/MCs.

I am super excited for this edition, I just think it will be really hard to build a list that can go through a tournament and be ready to face both an all Mechanized army and an Infantry army. But that's what I love about 8th, at least the idea of 8th. SO many armies seem improved that it should create more diversity and that makes the game better. Just harder for list builders

How big is your list in total?

2k List: WIP mechanized AM with Conscript screen (that list is like 20 points over):
• HQ
CC- 30
Commissar – 30
Tempestor Prime, rod- 40

• Elites:
-10x Vets, 3 PG, HF, PP, PA
-Chimera 2x HF, SB
-10x Vets, 3x MG, PP PA
-Chimera 2x HF, SB
-10x Vets 3x Flamer, HF, PP, PA
-Chimera 2x HF, SB
1x Scion Command Squad - 4x PG
–Taurox Prime, 2x AC, ML
6x Bullgyrn, Maul

• Fast Attack
-1xBane wolf – Chem, HF
-1x Bane wolf – Chem, HF

• Troop
-5x Scions, 2xMG, PP
–Taurox prime, 2x AC, ML
-30x Conscripts

• Heavy Support
-1x HWT Mortars
-1x HWT Mortars
-1x Manticore
-1x Manticore

I want to test out if the Primes are worth the points also try Hellhounds vrs Banewolfs. I actually like idea of using 3 HF Scout Sentinels. I love the models and I think they are pretty good.

**Trickstick**

BunkhouseBuster wrote:
So I have an important question that I haven't seen answered on this thread:

How about Ogryns and Bullgryns? I know that they are better just from not having to worry about Instant Death, but I haven't seen anything really mentioned about them yet.

And what loadout would be better for Bullgryns? Can't they mix up their weapons and shields now? Like, taking their maul with the Slabshield?

I would say that bullgryns with Slabshield and maul, with a couple of brute shields for high AP weapons. Not perfect, as you would have to allocate to an already wounded model, but can save you some pain.

I'm actually liking the look of Nork. He is a good way to keep your warlord alive if you are having a problem with snipers, and he is pretty good in a fight.

**Evillain09**

Yeah I think Nork would be good at that, but if you run Bullgyrns, 2 Bullgyrns will probably do more damage in melee than Nork. But he could have his uses to protect an HQ. Him next Yarrick in an infantry list would make Yarrick incredibly difficult to kill.

**MinscS2**

I can't wait to field my 9 Bullgryns with Slabshields and Mauls in the new edition. (Grenadegauntlet is a no-go as it costs points)

Even without the Priest there to give them re-rolls and fearless, they pack a serious punch. Plus I almost always failed the Ld-check anyway.

With a Priest they have 5 WS3+ attacks each on the charge, S7 AP1 D2.

**Razerous**

necron99 wrote:
From what I found in my game last night was that, while killing tanks outright is preferable, reducing their ability to move and shoot can be a force multiplier in the opposite direction. Would it be better to destroy a tank a turn or neuter three tanks a turn?

That's actually a fairly good point and highlights the need to move out of 7th edition mindset.

Some tanks/beasts (or all/most, depending on the degradation) could really be hurt in terms of movement and to-hit modifiers. Great point

necron99 wrote:
I got my first 8E game in last night against a guy who only ever plays Eldar and is very good at it (although this was only his 3rd 8E game). I made a ton of tactical mistakes, errors in my list, just bad all around but I did learn a lot. My biggest problem against his Eldar was conceal and his rangers. Way too many 2+ cover saves. I haven't had a chance to really absorb the new AM rules but what tools do we have to get around 2+ cover saves in shooting?

Like as has been said - cover is no longer a separate form of invulnerable save, just go for the high AP weaponary.

Or mortal wounds

**tankboy145**

One vehicle I have seen talked about much is the hydra!

It isn't open topped and is more survivable like all other vehicles.

It actually fires at ground targets on 5's instead of 6's so it hits them more now-used to snap fire on 6's.

Against air targets it hits on 3's which is most flyers, skimmers, jump infantry and flying monsters which is more targets.

It's ap-1 and damage 2 with 8 shots has done very well for me! I took 1 hydra one game who brought down Magnus by himself. Then the following game brought 2 hydras and they brought down a helldrake and hellbute. The -1 and 2 damage makes short work at whatever it fires at.

Sure it went up in points as most vehicles did but I think the hydra is a pretty decent fire support unit with good range to sit back and take down flying units.

Along with 2 wyverns my list will also auto include 2 hydras.

**Trickstick**

tankboy145 wrote:
Against air targets it hits on 3's which is most flyers, skimmers, jump infantry and flying monsters which is more targets.

Don't forget that you still have to take the -1 from the "Hard to Hit" rule for most fliers, the +1 that the hydra gets just counteracts it and doesn't get rid of it. So you are only hitting something like a Valkyrie on a 4+ if it doesn't hover.

JB

tankboy145 wrote:
I'm uncertain if pask can issue orders to himself as well. Because under the "knight commander" ability it states the can issues orders to "other" cadian leman russ characters. I understand his profile both has leman russ and characters but it didn't say he could order himself.

The answer seems very simple. Yes, he can issue orders to his own tank. The logic is RAW in his Tanks Orders rule. His unit is Cadian, it is a Leman Russ [Keyword], and the tank is within six inches of Pask. He has no rule that prevents him from issuing orders to himself or to Cadian LR characters. The Knight Commander rule says that he "can" issue orders to other Cadian Leman Russ characters but it does not say that he cannot issue an order to himself.

**Mandragola**

Trickstick wrote:
tankboy145 wrote:
Against air targets it hits on 3's which is most flyers, skimmers, jump infantry and flying monsters which is more targets.

Don't forget that you still have to take the -1 from the "Hard to Hit" rule for most fliers, the +1 that the hydra gets just counteracts it and doesn't get rid of it. So you are only hitting something like a Valkyrie on a 4+ if it doesn't hover.

While that's certainly true, there are actually an awful lot of units that fly but are not hard to hit. Basically true flyers are mostly hard to hit (though helldrakes aren't) but skimmers, jetbikes, jump packs and jet pack units are all perfectly easy to hit. It's extremely likely that the Hydra will have something to shoot at.

The only downside to it is that you could almost have a bastion with a quad gun for the same price, and keep a bunch of guns inside. But actually the Hydra hits better and is reasonably tough, so it's still a very valid option.

**daedalus**

I just haven't been able to get past the bad to-hit on the hydra post 5th edition. I have, like, two of them.

I slapped a script together the other day to do some Katherine style simulations:

Chimera or eq:
A: 8 S: 7 AP: -1 D: 2 @ BS or WS: 5+
vs T: 7 sv 3+
Damage Outcomes percent
0 49815 49.8%
2 36097 36.1%
4 11709 11.7%
6 2132 2.1%
8 237 0.2%
10 9 0.0%
12 1 0.0%

MEQ:
A: 8 S: 7 AP: -1 D: 2 @ BS or WS: 5+
vs T: 4 sv 3+
Damage Outcomes percent
0 38930 38.9%
2 39047 39.0%
4 16995 17.0%
6 4322 4.3%
8 637 0.6%
10 66 0.1%
12 3 0.0%

I don't know what the profile on an average Wave Serpent or what have you looks like, but against a Valk:

Valk or eq:
A: 8 S: 7 AP: -1 D: 2 @ BS or WS: 3+
vs T: 7 sv 3+
Damage Outcomes percent
0 23295 23.3%
2 37224 37.2%
4 26169 26.2%
6 10209 10.2%
8 2633 2.6%
10 424 0.4%
12 43 0.0%
14 3 0.0%

It's good for anti-air, and maybe that'll come up more than it used to, but I really feel like it's not bringing much to the game otherwise.

**Mavnas**

xmbk wrote:
Overwatch is significant, especially when units can Fall Back and get charged multiple times in a game.

Again, I see many people suggesting 1-2 flamers would be scary. Consider that each flamer (not HF, those are decent) puts out 3.5 hits. Against the humble guardsmen that turns into 3.5 * 2/3 * 2/3 = 1.5 dead guardsmen. Against marines 1/2 wound * 1/3 unsaved that's less than a single dead marine per flamer.

There's a big difference between a guard super-heavy with 4 twin heavy flamers on its sponsons and some random squad with the odd flamer thrown in. I agree the first is scary, the second isn't much worse than the odd lucky roll of a 6 from normal guns.

**daedalus**

Oh. Hellstrike missiles don't appear to be one use only anymore.

**Mandragola**

daedalus wrote:
Oh. Hellstrike missiles don't appear to be one use only anymore.

Interesting, right? It's something that's happened across the board. Things like Storm Ravens, Nephilims and Burna Bommerz all just have a things that fire multiple times, but without the nova effect that they once had.

Notice therefore that the valk only has one Hellstrike launcher. It can only fire one a turn, but can keep on firing them.

**xmbk**

Mavnas wrote:
xmbk wrote:
Overwatch is significant, especially when units can Fall Back and get charged multiple times in a game.

Again, I see many people suggesting 1-2 flamers would be scary. Consider that each flamer (not HF, those are decent) puts out 3.5 hits. Against the humble guardsmen that turns into 3.5 * 2/3 * 2/3 = 1.5 dead guardsmen. Against marines 1/2 wound * 1/3 unsaved that's less than a single dead marine per flamer.

There's a big difference between a guard super-heavy with 4 twin heavy flamers on its sponsons and some random squad with the odd flamer thrown in. I agree the first is scary, the second isn't much worse than the odd lucky roll of a 6 from normal guns.

How is killing .58 marines on Overwatch shooting not a good deal? If the unit doesn't get wiped, you get another 1-2 shots when you Fall Back. Two dead marines for the cost of a flamer is a pretty good deal.

**ross-128**

Trickstick wrote:
tankboy145 wrote:
Against air targets it hits on 3's which is most flyers, skimmers, jump infantry and flying monsters which is more targets.

Don't forget that you still have to take the -1 from the "Hard to Hit" rule for most fliers, the +1 that the hydra gets just counteracts it and doesn't get rid of it. So you are only hitting something like a Valkyrie on a 4+ if it doesn't hover.

The Hydra has 72" range and is tall enough to see over your infantry line, just stick it in the middle of your deployment edge and it can hit the whole board without ever moving.

The Hydra is pretty much why I was excited about the Exterminator autocannon potentially getting Heavy 8, and disappointed it got turned into Heavy 4. As long as you're fighting something with lots of jump and skimmer units though (looking at you, Tau), the Hydra is a fine substitute.

**Mandragola**

I also don't like flamers. A considerable number of assaults are going to be launched from outside their range - especially by people who deep strike in. You don't even get to fire your flamers in that situation.

Meanwhile all the marines have to do is have their rhino charge first. You'll be extremely lucky to hurt it with a flamer (which is yet another reason why drop pods, which obviously can't do this, are dead).

I think that 8th is the edition of the plasma gun. Give your vets 3 plasma guns and have somebody order them not to blow themselves up. Many problems will go away.

Daedalus I'm not sure how you are getting those numbers (not arguing, just genuinely don't know). For reference, a Tau devilfish has the same toughness and save as a rhino. Crisis suits are T5 3+, 3 wounds (so every second wounding hit wastes a wound).

Best target for a hydra might be the new Primaris Intercessors (the flying ones). It averages 1.78 wounding hits on them, so it should tend to kill two, for a value of 150 points/turn.

**SuspiciousSucculent**

Kaeldran wrote:
6 lascannon impacts would do the trick, or two times this number of manticore misiles impacts, or four times this number of autocannon impacts, they are all reliable and efficient tank killing options. IG have plenty options about it.
But 12 lascannon are about 450 points, 4 manticores about 530... At this range of points you can also deploy a shadowsword, that is also, another way of kill an enemy tank per turn with some reliability.

A turox prime could be an even more efficient tank killer with hotshot volley and gatling, at close range and stationary, 3 of them kill a tank at average for les than 300 points, of course is hard to be at 12" of the enemy without any movement, but on the other hand, they are at the same time excellent anti-orde machines and fairly resistant for their cost, and versatilty comes with a price (not in points in this case).

And yes, cuatrimelta tempestus command squad are even more efficient, at 84 points the unit, two of them could deep strike and destroy a tank with reliability at just 170 points, ultra efficient, but after that, if they can shoot other things, is only because your opponent is doing very very weird things...

Are those options efficient? Well, yes, in 8° ed you will usually need between 2 and 4 times the points of the víctim in specialized weaponrry to kill it in one turn, so to kill tanks of more than 100 points you will have to invest in anti tank about 300-600, thats sound reasonable.
There are few armys, if any, with such a plethora of efficient ways of destroying enemy tanks.

Whoever convinced you to pay 450pts for 12 lascannons is robbing you blind. 12 lascannons on HWSs would only be about 288pts. For 450 you could get 18 lascannons. Furthermore, looking at the Taurox prime, you pay about 75pts per wound inflicted on T8 3+ targets, whereas with lascannon HWSs you only pay 25pts per wound, making lascannons much more efficient tank hunters. Scion command squads with melta are even more efficient points-wise, needing less than 18pts per wound, but you need to dedicated 2-3 to kill a vehicle reliably. They are still brokenly cheap.

**Mavnas**

Leth wrote:
mahddoc wrote:
What are good options for Fast Attack slots? I don't have Sentinels so these as cheap fillers are out. I already have taken two Hellhounds and i am looking for something else, even from another Imperium army. Anyone got ideas for what to take to maybe fill a hole in a TAC army?

I am a fan of rough riders. Solid counter assault unit with their hunting lances, especially if you got a priest nearby. I want more of them in my list but sadly I run DKOK and it will be awhile before I can buy a second squad haha

Priests only work on infantry now.

**Unit1126PLL**

I have used Hydras in my games supporting my Baneblade company and found them to be a thunderous 'meh.'

Against their designated targets (things with W2) then they're fantastic; they shred Terminators (every failed 3+ is a dead model - only Plasma can say that but it has to be overcharged!), Primaris Marines, and other light-armoured vehicles with the Fly keyword (fantastic against Land Speeders!).

However, against heavy armour (e.g. Leman Russ tanks or Land Raiders) that doesn't fly, or against 1W models, its potential is largely wasted.

I've also found that firing 8 Autocannon shots at 72" attracts inordinate amounts of attention from enemy anti-tank assets. Even with three Baneblades roaming the field, the enemy will dedicate some portion of their power to removing the Hydras first.

**Mavnas**

SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Whoever convinced you to pay 450pts for 12 lascannons is robbing you blind. 12 lascannons on HWSs would only be about 288pts. For 450 you could get 18 lascannons. Furthermore, looking at the Taurox prime, you pay about 75pts per wound inflicted on T8 3+ targets, whereas with lascannon HWSs you only pay 25pts per wound, making lascannons much more efficient tank hunters. Scion command squads with melta are even more efficient points-wise, needing less than 18pts per wound, but you need to dedicated 2-3 to kill a vehicle reliably. They are still brokenly cheap.

I think the question with HWS is are they still alive after turn 1? This question is extra relevant if you're constantly going second. I think some of the sturdier platforms for Lascannons make up for cost by firing for more than a round or two.