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What happens if a unit of daemonettes charges a unit of daemonettes?
Does anybody else see the logical paradox that this would entail?
No, it'll just revert to a process as if neither was damonettes (charger strikes first.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/13 22:27:40
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Galef wrote:While this is great from a balance standpoint
Of course it is. "Free" anything, especially free models/upgrades, by definition is imbalancing. It's a stupid rule and they should have never implemented it in the first place.
it literally means the Split rule will be worthless. If you are paying points for them already, why wouldn't you just deploy them as normal?
A lot of this will depend on the rule set that we finally end up with.
I suspect that one use will be reliable objective camping.
If you have an objective, say, behind a wall, it's a lot easier to hide a smaller number of models with the option to split later.
If nothing else, the split rule will give you options.
What happens if a unit of daemonettes charges a unit of daemonettes?
Does anybody else see the logical paradox that this would entail?
Simple, the rule will probably say something along the lines of "this does not apply if charged by a unit that has a special rule that does the same"
Well the striking first in combat rule could just be "always strike first" unless the enemy unit has the same rule, like it was in fantasy. But since they said all most always get the charge I'd be bet that it's a dice roll to steal the charge, maybe on a 2+. If both units have rule the attack simultaneously, or roll off for it.
-If Slaanesh units only get nu-rending when on large squads then this is ultimately a net nerf to them compared to their old rules. At i5 they were already hitting before 90% of units in the game, so *almost* always hitting first isn't much of a change. Meanwhile requiring large squad sizes to get Graceful Killers makes MSU daemonettes and Seeker squads seem pretty useless.
Graceful Killers:
Is nearly a straight port over from AOS, but now effects units of 20+ rather than effecting units of 10+ of 6+ wound roll; and units of 20+ on a 5+ wound roll. So a bit weaker.
Piercing Claws:
Spoiler:
Slaaneshi daemons got to keep rending attacks at AP-4. I was almost certain that they would be just a flat AP-1, and 2-3 attacks. If we're lucky they might still have base attacks at AP-1.
Not as good as 7th Edition rending since Terminator still get a 6+ save and unit can potentially improve their saves with blessing and the like.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly, for Slaanesh I don't care if we don't have a strike first rule. I rather have run and charge and 2D6 run moves ported over form AOS. That and greater movement would virtually guarantee charges anyway.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/13 23:45:30
Well the striking first in combat rule could just be "always strike first" unless the enemy unit has the same rule, like it was in fantasy. But since they said all most always get the charge I'd be bet that it's a dice roll to steal the charge, maybe on a 2+. If both units have rule the attack simultaneously, or roll off for it.
Eww no...
Please 1 die roll off to determine these things.
I rather just have it either cancel each other out, so that the charger strikes first...
or they strike simultaneously, similar to how same initiative works currently.
I'd vastly prefer charger striking first overriding ASF. It's a known quantity and known factors are always superior to random factors in strategy games.
The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
BlaxicanX wrote: In fact I can't think of a single melee unit that is both i6+ and also a competitive, fairly oftenly seen unit.
DCA.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
oldzoggy wrote: I would not be supersized if daemons got some serious nerfs. Since the article started with the competitive scene daemon abuse and made it sound as a rule not the exception of current daemon lists.
Actually they need some serious buffs. Sure, there's a couple of builds that have been strong, but there's whole swathes of the current Codex that you'd never take outside of fluff reasons.
Thats basically the situation of every "OP" faction. Eldar, Tau and Marines only have OP some specific build, normally based in 1-2 OP units or detachments. In general, the balance of 40K was as bad between codexs as just in every codex internally. Every factions need buffs and nerfs, but in different things/aspects/units, to be better balanced internally and externally.
You're right, of course, balance is awful currently whichever way you look at it, internal or external, but I'd argue Daemons are more tied to certain builds than others, purely because all the random means you've got to build to mitigate it, whereas you don't have to take an extra unit of Grav Cents in a Marine army to make sure one of them turns up with the correct armament!
Daemons are the most unpleasant army in the game to play against. 2++ rerollable invul saves on any unit they feel needed it. Blech, rather play taudar.
How are they getting "a 2++ re-rollable invuln on any unit that needed it"? Someone lied to you, son. The ONLY units in the codex that can even reliably get a 2++ are Tzeentch units, let alone a re-rollable. That excludes over 75% of the units in the codex.
Azreal13 wrote:And almost 100% of what was fielded in competitive lists...
And even then of those Tzeentch units, only about 50% saw play.
When is the last time you saw The Changeling, The Blue Scribes, Brimstone Horrors, Flamers, Flaming Chariots or Exalted Flamers, Tzeentch Furies or Tzeentch Soul Grinders taken as anything other than taxes (if even that).
(Just to make sure it's 100% clear I'm agreeing with you guys)
Galef wrote:While this is great from a balance standpoint
Of course it is. "Free" anything, especially free models/upgrades, by definition is imbalancing. It's a stupid rule and they should have never implemented it in the first place.
it literally means the Split rule will be worthless. If you are paying points for them already, why wouldn't you just deploy them as normal?
A lot of this will depend on the rule set that we finally end up with.
I suspect that one use will be reliable objective camping.
If you have an objective, say, behind a wall, it's a lot easier to hide a smaller number of models with the option to split later.
If nothing else, the split rule will give you options.
It's looking just like AoS so you will never see the split do to if you know the opposition has put points into splitting you can ignore the unit till the end and they are fighting under points
A better way whoud have had them baked into the point cost
2000 6000 with Reaver Titan guard 2k
2500 (imperial force)
2500 (trimming down in 8th)
TS 30k at 5k points
Yes I have a problem
Galef wrote:While this is great from a balance standpoint
Of course it is. "Free" anything, especially free models/upgrades, by definition is imbalancing. It's a stupid rule and they should have never implemented it in the first place.
it literally means the Split rule will be worthless. If you are paying points for them already, why wouldn't you just deploy them as normal?
A lot of this will depend on the rule set that we finally end up with.
I suspect that one use will be reliable objective camping.
If you have an objective, say, behind a wall, it's a lot easier to hide a smaller number of models with the option to split later.
If nothing else, the split rule will give you options.
It's looking just like AoS so you will never see the split do to if you know the opposition has put points into splitting you can ignore the unit till the end and they are fighting under points
A better way whoud have had them baked into the point cost
Oldmike wrote:It's looking just like AoS so you will never see the split do to if you know the opposition has put points into splitting you can ignore the unit till the end and they are fighting under points. A better way whoud have had them baked into the point cost
What you are saying doesn't make sense to me.
The points cost should be exactly the same either way.
If unit A costs x points and B costs y points, then you end up paying z.
If the cost of B were already part of A, then, once again, you would STILL end up paying z.
At least the split rule gives you options, since your reinforcement points don't HAVE to be spent (at least, I would assume) on the models that would use the Split rule. They can be used on summoning instead.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/14 03:00:28
Oldmike wrote:It's looking just like AoS so you will never see the split do to if you know the opposition has put points into splitting you can ignore the unit till the end and they are fighting under points. A better way whoud have had them baked into the point cost
What you are saying doesn't make sense to me.
The points cost should be exactly the same either way.
If unit A costs x points and B costs y points, then you end up paying z.
If the cost of B were already part of A, then, once again, you would STILL end up paying z.
At least the split rule gives you options, since your reinforcement points don't HAVE to be spent (at least, I would assume) on the models that would use the Split rule. They can be used on summoning instead.
Not if you got the split guys for a discount price i.e. If pinks are 100 blues are 80 and brims are 40 but you can get a set for 200
As it is summoning is bad as you basically have units in reserves that may never even come in as your casters can be targeted and sniped
2000 6000 with Reaver Titan guard 2k
2500 (imperial force)
2500 (trimming down in 8th)
TS 30k at 5k points
Yes I have a problem
Oldmike wrote:It's looking just like AoS so you will never see the split do to if you know the opposition has put points into splitting you can ignore the unit till the end and they are fighting under points. A better way whoud have had them baked into the point cost
What you are saying doesn't make sense to me.
The points cost should be exactly the same either way.
If unit A costs x points and B costs y points, then you end up paying z.
If the cost of B were already part of A, then, once again, you would STILL end up paying z.
At least the split rule gives you options, since your reinforcement points don't HAVE to be spent (at least, I would assume) on the models that would use the Split rule. They can be used on summoning instead.
Not if you got the split guys for a discount price i.e. If pinks are 100 blues are 80 and brims are 40 but you can get a set for 200
As it is summoning is bad as you basically have units in reserves that may never even come in as your casters can be targeted and sniped
Except you are are forgetting that summoning lets you pick your unit at the time of summoning so you get to tailor your list mid game
Oldmike wrote:It's looking just like AoS so you will never see the split do to if you know the opposition has put points into splitting you can ignore the unit till the end and they are fighting under points. A better way whoud have had them baked into the point cost
What you are saying doesn't make sense to me.
The points cost should be exactly the same either way.
If unit A costs x points and B costs y points, then you end up paying z.
If the cost of B were already part of A, then, once again, you would STILL end up paying z.
At least the split rule gives you options, since your reinforcement points don't HAVE to be spent (at least, I would assume) on the models that would use the Split rule. They can be used on summoning instead.
Not if you got the split guys for a discount price i.e. If pinks are 100 blues are 80 and brims are 40 but you can get a set for 200
As it is summoning is bad as you basically have units in reserves that may never even come in as your casters can be targeted and sniped
Except you are are forgetting that summoning lets you pick your unit at the time of summoning so you get to tailor your list mid game
If you play mono god it's not nearly as useful so for me it sucks to get charged to have the power to summon and make it a piss poor tactic
2000 6000 with Reaver Titan guard 2k
2500 (imperial force)
2500 (trimming down in 8th)
TS 30k at 5k points
Yes I have a problem
Oldmike wrote:It's looking just like AoS so you will never see the split do to if you know the opposition has put points into splitting you can ignore the unit till the end and they are fighting under points. A better way whoud have had them baked into the point cost
What you are saying doesn't make sense to me.
The points cost should be exactly the same either way.
If unit A costs x points and B costs y points, then you end up paying z.
If the cost of B were already part of A, then, once again, you would STILL end up paying z.
At least the split rule gives you options, since your reinforcement points don't HAVE to be spent (at least, I would assume) on the models that would use the Split rule. They can be used on summoning instead.
Not if you got the split guys for a discount price i.e. If pinks are 100 blues are 80 and brims are 40 but you can get a set for 200
As it is summoning is bad as you basically have units in reserves that may never even come in as your casters can be targeted and sniped
Except you are are forgetting that summoning lets you pick your unit at the time of summoning so you get to tailor your list mid game
If you play mono god it's not nearly as useful so for me it sucks to get charged to have the power to summon and make it a piss poor tactic
Well tactically you are already shooting yourself in the foot going mono god so of course stuff is going to be bad when you handicap yourself
What happens if a unit of daemonettes charges a unit of daemonettes?
Does anybody else see the logical paradox that this would entail?
It's quite easy to see that there will be a rule that dictates what happens... for example, charging unit takes predecence, or the players unit whose turn it is.
Also the "equal points and no freebies" argument is invalid (currently) since some stuff (half of the Eldar book) is undercosted, which is essentially just the same thing, how it translates onto the tabletop.
Altough it's obvious there will be undercosted units in the new edition aswell. Atleast now it seems realistic there might be fixes coming, during some timeframe.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/14 07:01:39
2. Since Galef has been talking about this, he'll be interested to read, and I quote:
"Have some Reinforcement Points for Blue Horrors and Brimstone Horrors as well, as these still split out of their parent unit like a series of Russian Dolls and are great for grabbing objectives and keeping enemy units busy long after other units would have been destroyed."
So. No. No free models for you.
While this is great from a balance standpoint, it literally means the Split rule will be worthless. If you are paying points for them already, why wouldn't you just deploy them as normal?
Versatility. I'd imagine you could buy them from the start, or set the points aside that could be used for multiple things, including splitting them off later, or summoning in other demons elsewhere. You have the options of spending the points up front for more initial power and consistency on the board vs leaving some in reserve for some later game flexibility with a bit more risk. So you could buy a unit of pinks and a unit of blues to run together, or you could save those points to see if it's worth more to split the blues off to hang onto an important objective or summon something else on a different part of the board.
Runic wrote:Also the "equal points and no freebies" argument is invalid (currently) since some stuff (half of the Eldar book) is undercosted, which is essentially just the same thing, how it translates onto the tabletop.
This isn't an argument in favor of freebies. This is an argument in favor of GW doing more playtesting and imposing better balance on their games.
Runic wrote:Also the "equal points and no freebies" argument is invalid (currently) since some stuff (half of the Eldar book) is undercosted, which is essentially just the same thing, how it translates onto the tabletop.
This isn't an argument in favor of freebies..
You're right. It's an argument in favour of costing disadvantages appropriately. Deploying blue horrors with the split rule gives them less value than deploying on the board at the beginning of the game and that should be reflected in the points costs.
Let me put it to you in a way I think you can empathize with: Assume GW, in all of their wisdom, gave rhinos a new special rule called targeted reinforcement. This rule means that rhinos and the squad inside them, have to start the game in reserve and select a friendly unit at the beginning of the game (could be a landraider, bikes, tactical squad, whatever...) and the rhino (and it's squad) only deploy on the turn when the selected friendly unit is completely destroyed. Now suddenly the rhino may not show up until the last half of the game, maybe it doesn't show up at all. This can have some very limited niche advantages but overall it's a rather large disadvantage. Now answer me honestly, would rhinos have the same value with this change?
It's important to remember the purpose of points; to price units based on their value. If their value goes down, as they would with the split rule, points should go down proportionately to reflect this.
chalkobob wrote:You're right. It's an argument in favour of costing disadvantages appropriately. Deploying blue horrors with the split rule gives them less value than deploying on the board at the beginning of the game and that should be reflected in the points costs.
No, it doesn't.
If you had the option to deploy the blue horrors as normal, but instead chose to use the Split rule, then that's on you.
You should pay the full points costs.
No freebies.
No discounts.
Really, by your argument, any model which can deep-strike should have a points-discount (which is, of course, an utterly ridiculous idea).
Let me put it to you in a way I think you can empathize with: Assume GW, in all of their wisdom, gave rhinos a new special rule called targeted reinforcement. This rule means that rhinos and the squad inside them, have to start the game in reserve and select a friendly unit at the beginning of the game (could be a landraider, bikes, tactical squad, whatever...) and the rhino (and it's squad) only deploy on the turn when the selected friendly unit is completely destroyed. Now suddenly the rhino may not show up until the last half of the game, maybe it doesn't show up at all. This can have some very limited niche advantages but overall it's a rather large disadvantage. Now answer me honestly, would rhinos have the same value with this change?
This is a bull gak comparison.
You have the option to deploy your entire force at the beginning of the game. If you choose not to deploy your entire force and instead use the Split rule later in the game, then that's on you, not on the rule set.
Talamare wrote:My point is... They should have just kept some of the basic USRs...
Because APPARENTLY THEY STILL EXIST...
The effects still exist.
However, because the rules are placed on the relevant datasheets, it means that you don't need to keep flipping back through the BRB to figure out what it means. If you have the datasheet for every unit you're using, then if you need something with that unit, you just check their sheet. At the moment, it's "check the unit, then check the rulebook". If you cut out the "check the rulebook" stage, then it shortens the time by at least half.
2. Since Galef has been talking about this, he'll be interested to read, and I quote:
"Have some Reinforcement Points for Blue Horrors and Brimstone Horrors as well, as these still split out of their parent unit like a series of Russian Dolls and are great for grabbing objectives and keeping enemy units busy long after other units would have been destroyed."
So. No. No free models for you.
While this is great from a balance standpoint, it literally means the Split rule will be worthless. If you are paying points for them already, why wouldn't you just deploy them as normal?
I'm personally disappointed because I bought 2 boxes of Blue/Brims and never got to play will the Split rule at all because once I new 8th was coming, I stopped playing 7th.
At least 2 boxes was all I bought
If you had the option to deploy the blue horrors as normal, but instead chose to use the Split rule, then that's on you.
If you had the option to replace the bolters on space marine with lasguns with no additional benefit that would be on the player as well, but in a balanced rule set, that would come with a points reduction to reflect the decrease in value. In other words, putting it on the player for taking the weaker of 2 options is fair to an extent, but in a balanced rule set neither option would be worse, they would come with trade-offs (like points adjustments) to make either option viable.
Really, by your argument, any model which can deep-strike should have a points-discount (which is, of course, an utterly ridiculous idea).
That's disingenuous. Deep strike has the advantage of deploying almost anywhere, and the overwhelming majority of the time by turn 3 or earlier. It's an advantage, not a drawback like deploying with the split rule is.
You have the option to deploy your entire force at the beginning of the game. If you choose not to deploy your entire force and instead use the Split rule later in the game, then that's on you, not on the rule set.
No. If there is no reason to ever to deploy with the split rule over usual deployment it is most definitely on the rule set. If options exist, they should be balanced. You could also put it on the player for taking heavy bolters on devastators instead of grav-cannons, after all, it is their choice. I, however, would prefer if grav-cannons and heavy bolters were appropriately balanced (be it with point cost or power) so that they were both worth using.
They are balanced, you can either start them on the table and get full value or have them pop up later into multiple units as a distraction and a punishment for killing your objective huggers.
Use your tactics here. The point for splitting are summoning points, if your opponents leave the pink horrors alone, the use the summoning points to summon the unit in normally, or use them to summon more useful units up field. Since you're not locked into taking the horrors as your summon it's a huge advantage and a mind game for your foe.
2000 
6000 with Reaver Titan 
guard 2k
2500 (imperial force)
2500 (trimming down in 8th)
