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 Gloomfang wrote:
People bitched all the time about Tervigon spawning being OP. Honestly they were. Used to get TS and AG upgrades for free, spawn 6, move 6 and charge for a 12"+d6 charge range turn they came on. Oh and spawning onto the other side of a wall the Tervigon was hiding behind was great.

And add in catalyst...

People hated Tervigons and the fact that 3 of them gave you a few hundred extra points in models and upgrades. What do you think we ran before Flyrant spam?

Let's see:

The biggest thing Tervigons had besides spawning and buffing was guaranteed Catalyst. Only problem being this was an edition where denying powers was hideously easy (Space Wolves, Runes of Warding, etc). IIRC, Termagants also did not have Fleet either (the only shooting units with Fleet were Raveners/Lictors/Trygons).

At best, they could tickle a Rhino so it was shaken up, bunch up because no consolidate, get Tank-shocked if the Tyranid player wasn't careful with defense-in-depth, and proceed to lose a mass of troops to No Retreat Wounds...

Depends on the edition of 40k with the old codex on the powers. The 5 "tervifex" list was really popular and OP for a while.

And the issue we are talking about us broken summoning units. Tervigons were WAY undercosted and the tax to take then was a joke. They camped objectives, wrecked tanks and produced hordes of tarpit units for free. And you still had a ton of points to spend on the rest of your army to deal with stuff the they couldn't.

They nerfed them hard and increased the cost and that's why you don't see them spammed now. The cost of the units it can build has been sort of priced in properly.

The original question was that only demons have had this issue. Other armies had this issue too.

 Gloomfang wrote:
Depends on the edition of 40k with the old codex on the powers. The 5 "tervifex" list was really popular and OP for a while.

And the issue we are talking about us broken summoning units. Tervigons were WAY undercosted and the tax to take then was a joke. They camped objectives, wrecked tanks and produced hordes of tarpit units for free. And you still had a ton of points to spend on the rest of your army to deal with stuff the they couldn't.

They nerfed them hard and increased the cost and that's why you don't see them spammed now. The cost of the units it can build has been sort of priced in properly.

The original question was that only demons have had this issue. Other armies had this issue too.

They didn't wreck tanks. Hive Guard wrecked tanks, or at least damaged them enough for the short run. You could make a Nid list work if you abused 5e cover mechanics and distributed AT throughout every slot that could take it, but the largest issue 5e Nids had was that 40k is a game where "one unit shoots at one unit", and it was an edition known for mass Razorbacks (or Meltavets in Chimeras, etc).

Not to drag this into the demon topic, but it applies I think as we are still talking about psykers and summoning.

A tervifex had 3 powers, you swapped it for biomancy to try and get iron arm, endurence and warp speed in some combination. You also crushing claws for the extra D3 attacks. As the powers were generally self targeting you rarely could stop them from going off. Smash at the time only cost them one attack and then you added all the extra attacks at the much higher strength it was 4 to 6 attacks on a charge and HoW. They wrecked tanks and anything else in thier path and punched WAY above points cost.

Demons are currently in the same position. Undercosted units that produce free units that get some wargear or othet buffs that were never considered when they were created. Then the unit got spammed.

Demons are getting the correction now. I hope it isn't as bad as it was for Nids.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Asura Varuna wrote:
I don't understand how people seem to overlook the fact that Summoning ISN'T ACTUALLY FREE. Have people never heard of opportunity cost? To be able to summon units you have to invest points into units with those abilities. With the new summoning rules, you basically pay twice for the units you want to summon in game - first when you pick the psyker who'll summon them, because his cost includes the cost of his powers, and then a second time when you choose to use summoning over making use of his other offensive/utility spells. And you risk having those psykers destroyed and preventing you making effective use of your summoning points. The issue however, was that summoning allowed you to double dip into more summoning and that the units who could summon were not appropriately priced.

All of this, effectively. Not to mention that most Psykers only have 2 wounds, non-Daemon Psykers Perils on any double, Perils has a 2 in 3 chance of a wound (with several results either forcing ld checks to disable powers, Warp charge, or kill the Psyker outright), summoning in a crowded table was suicide if you weren't Battle Brothers with Daemons and didn't have access to Icons or Cursed Earth...

...it's this same mindset that led to people complaining that Lash was OP in 5th mechhammer, when Chaos struggled to cram whatever AT in that it could.

And yet somehow.. They still managed to dominate the top tables at tournaments no matter where they go unlike 5th edition CSM.. And then they competed with Barkstar or Superfriends which added a ton of Librarians with Conclave/Runepriests.. And of course CAD Eldar.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Asura Varuna wrote:
I don't understand how people seem to overlook the fact that Summoning ISN'T ACTUALLY FREE. Have people never heard of opportunity cost? To be able to summon units you have to invest points into units with those abilities. With the new summoning rules, you basically pay twice for the units you want to summon in game - first when you pick the psyker who'll summon them, because his cost includes the cost of his powers, and then a second time when you choose to use summoning over making use of his other offensive/utility spells. And you risk having those psykers destroyed and preventing you making effective use of your summoning points. The issue however, was that summoning allowed you to double dip into more summoning and that the units who could summon were not appropriately priced.

All of this, effectively. Not to mention that most Psykers only have 2 wounds, non-Daemon Psykers Perils on any double, Perils has a 2 in 3 chance of a wound (with several results either forcing ld checks to disable powers, Warp charge, or kill the Psyker outright), summoning in a crowded table was suicide if you weren't Battle Brothers with Daemons and didn't have access to Icons or Cursed Earth...

...it's this same mindset that led to people complaining that Lash was OP in 5th mechhammer, when Chaos struggled to cram whatever AT in that it could.

And yet somehow.. They still managed to dominate the top tables at tournaments no matter where they go unlike 5th edition CSM.. And then they competed with Barkstar or Superfriends which added a ton of Librarians with Conclave/Runepriests.. And of course CAD Eldar.

If you look at Nanivati's Adepticon builds, he generally avoided using Summons, over going for buff-stacking via the Grimoire, Locus of Fecundity, etc. His Magnus build was shortly after WoM (there's usually a grace period for a new army to do well in events, because most 40k players are fairly dense when it comes to facing new foes) and ran Masque&Magnus. The best Daemon list this year at ITC was a Screamerstar serving as a mobile wall for an Ordnance Tyrant list...

...really, none of this actually deals with Summoning itself being a reason for Daemons doing well.

 Gloomfang wrote:
Not to drag this into the demon topic, but it applies I think as we are still talking about psykers and summoning.

A tervifex had 3 powers, you swapped it for biomancy to try and get iron arm, endurence and warp speed in some combination. You also crushing claws for the extra D3 attacks. As the powers were generally self targeting you rarely could stop them from going off. Smash at the time only cost them one attack and then you added all the extra attacks at the much higher strength it was 4 to 6 attacks on a charge and HoW. They wrecked tanks and anything else in thier path and punched WAY above points cost.

Demons are currently in the same position. Undercosted units that produce free units that get some wargear or othet buffs that were never considered when they were created. Then the unit got spammed.

Demons are getting the correction now. I hope it isn't as bad as it was for Nids.

sure not a 5th edition tervi, considering in 5th edition those power didn't exist. then tyr lost access to bio so no way to use those kind of powers

My hope for Daemons is that they have a combination of the 'good parts' of their last 2 codices.
I liked the 5th ed codex because you had a bit more control over what you got and the Daemons felt menacing. The 6th ed codex was nice in that you could build a proper horde.

Hopefully 8E Daemon lists can have tons of wounds (whether that be in lots of single wound models or over several multi-wound models).
I am actually excited about the idea that many models will get set powers. Random was fun for a while, but got old fast and severely limited playstyle if you wanted to avoid it.

-

 Galef wrote:
My hope for Daemons is that they have a combination of the 'good parts' of their last 2 codices.
I liked the 5th ed codex because you had a bit more control over what you got and the Daemons felt menacing. The 6th ed codex was nice in that you could build a proper horde.

Hopefully 8E Daemon lists can have tons of wounds (whether that be in lots of single wound models or over several multi-wound models).
I am actually excited about the idea that many models will get set powers. Random was fun for a while, but got old fast and severely limited playstyle if you wanted to avoid it.

-

hope they just strip off all that random stuff in demon codex and we are fine.

Agreed. The main rule provide enough random. Armies should be designed to mitigate that randomness, not add to it.
The 5E Daemon codex had very little random to it. I suspect the 8E Daemons to be more similar to that.
The only difference will likely be that Daemons will be less 'elite' than 5E where units were tougher but more expensive. 8E Daemons are likely to be cheaper and more plentiful like the 7E Daemons.

Who else is stoked about Daemon Princes not being targetable? That is if they stay characters and less than 10 wounds (both seem likely to me)

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The 5E Daemon codex had very little random to it. I suspect the 8E Daemons to be more similar to that.

Aside from half your army being available to deepstrike on the beginning die roll.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The 5E Daemon codex had very little random to it. I suspect the 8E Daemons to be more similar to that.

Aside from half your army being available to deepstrike on the beginning die roll.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Probably because I built my lists with either 2 of everything and split the list in half so the roll didn't matter, or had 2 distinct halves that spammed the same kinds of threat.

Not having random wargear/rewards and no Warp Storm would be enough to make them more like 5E.
My fingers are still crossed to 3 wound FleshHounds and Screamers, and 2 wound Seekers

-

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The 5E Daemon codex had very little random to it. I suspect the 8E Daemons to be more similar to that.

Aside from half your army being available to deepstrike on the beginning die roll.

was never a big problem for me and i played that codex in many tournaments


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The 5E Daemon codex had very little random to it. I suspect the 8E Daemons to be more similar to that.

Aside from half your army being available to deepstrike on the beginning die roll.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Probably because I built my lists with either 2 of everything and split the list in half so the roll didn't matter, or had 2 distinct halves that spammed the same kinds of threat.

Not having random wargear/rewards and no Warp Storm would be enough to make them more like 5E.
My fingers are still crossed to 3 wound FleshHounds and Screamers, and 2 wound Seekers

-

the fact now you can assault after DS can be a great add to our codex with so many cac specialists.

It remains to be seen if some units get charge re-roll like 7E Fleet. If that exists, than super melee Daemons is a very viable 8E list.

 Galef wrote:
It remains to be seen if some units get charge re-roll like 7E Fleet. If that exists, than super melee Daemons is a very viable 8E list.

some units like demonettes for example will have sure a bonus for charge, btw some characters sure will give bonus just looking at AoS and that is clear.

 blackmage wrote:
[the fact now you can assault after DS can be a great add to our codex with so many cac specialists.

It's confirmed that all units can assault out of deepstrike? Is this based off the Tyranids reveal?

Asura Varuna wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
[the fact now you can assault after DS can be a great add to our codex with so many cac specialists.

It's confirmed that all units can assault out of deepstrike? Is this based off the Tyranids reveal?

this is what seems, they told that in a previous article

The 6th Ed Tyranids codex in 7th gave us access to biomancy until the 7th edition codex dropped.

 Gloomfang wrote:
The 6th Ed Tyranids codex in 7th gave us access to biomancy until the 7th edition codex dropped.

lasted short

 Galef wrote:
I just hope there is a distinct difference between Pinks and Blues besided -1S & T. With the new To-Wound chart and being able to always wound on 6, I really don't see any point in taking Pinks over equal points of Blues/Brims.
Maybe each level casts its power more easily? Or does more damage?

And if the current points proportion between all 3 horrors is roughly the same, I could easily see players taking units of 10 Blues and 10 Brims instead of 10 Pinks. You would get more out of them that way as Brims are really cheap (and thus less risky to leave in your reserve points) and with no Instant Death this edition, Brims seem twice as durable as they were in 7th.

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You're forgetting about morale and t1-2. Bolters will kill way more t1 and t2 models.

As for summoning vs deepstrike. It's hinted that you can charge from deepstrike but can't place the squad closer than 9". Nothing about summoning. So, it might be possible to summon a squad closer to the enemy and emidiately charge in. That's a huge thing worth the extra hassle with paying points and going through a more dangerous process of casting a spell. Another thing to consider is that you will likely not get forced to summon something you don't want to summon this turn. Whereas you must deepstrike half the reserved squads.

 koooaei wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I just hope there is a distinct difference between Pinks and Blues besided -1S & T. With the new To-Wound chart and being able to always wound on 6, I really don't see any point in taking Pinks over equal points of Blues/Brims.
Maybe each level casts its power more easily? Or does more damage?

And if the current points proportion between all 3 horrors is roughly the same, I could easily see players taking units of 10 Blues and 10 Brims instead of 10 Pinks. You would get more out of them that way as Brims are really cheap (and thus less risky to leave in your reserve points) and with no Instant Death this edition, Brims seem twice as durable as they were in 7th.

-

You're forgetting about morale and t1-2. Bolters will kill way more t1 and t2 models.

As for summoning vs deepstrike. It's hinted that you can charge from deepstrike but can't place the squad closer than 9". Nothing about summoning. So, it might be possible to summon a squad closer to the enemy and emidiately charge in. That's a huge thing worth the extra hassle with paying points and going through a more dangerous process of casting a spell. Another thing to consider is that you will likely not get forced to summon something you don't want to summon this turn. Whereas you must deepstrike half the reserved squads.

If both those things happen it would be great i think, Right now i think GW needs to put the basic rules out for everyone to see. SO these teasers mean something more to the discussion, would help them also in case they are still working on things for the factions themselves.