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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kandela wrote:
So... you are comparing a unit with an obvious counter-unit and bemoaning the fact that a counter-unit wins? What did you expect with 18 Heavy Bolter shot? That the normal infantry albeit with a better save and higher AP will just shake this kind of firepower off and wipe the squad next turn?


"Obvious counter unit"

You see, that's what is interesting. Both units are made to do the same thing, more or less: kill infantry, particularly heavier infantry. They have both offensive and defensive bonuses geared towards dealing with them. One is just notably better, due to having a significantly higher firepower. Rubric only draw even against guard equivalent or weaker, as the str 5 guns and toughness 5 don't come into play there. Even then, it's drawing even, not coming out ahead.

Also, why do people assume chapter tactics/marks will change things such that rubrics are better off? Are we suggesting that chapter tactics will be weaker than the chaos equivalent, and that interceptors won't have the benefit of having a wider array of options to chose from (given rubrics are locked in by nature).

We have the core rules and both units sheets. That's 90% of the information. Assuming that the remaining 10% will be roughly equivalent for each isn't a huge jump in logic, particularly given the remaining 10% are the army wide bonuses.

   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




Phoenix, Arizona

SilverAlien wrote:
 Kandela wrote:
So... you are comparing a unit with an obvious counter-unit and bemoaning the fact that a counter-unit wins? What did you expect with 18 Heavy Bolter shot? That the normal infantry albeit with a better save and higher AP will just shake this kind of firepower off and wipe the squad next turn?


"Obvious counter unit"

You see, that's what is interesting. Both units are made to do the same thing, more or less: kill infantry, particularly heavier infantry. They have both offensive and defensive bonuses geared towards dealing with them. One is just notably better, due to having a significantly higher firepower. Rubric only draw even against guard equivalent or weaker, as the str 5 guns and toughness 5 don't come into play there. Even then, it's drawing even, not coming out ahead.

Also, why do people assume chapter tactics/marks will change things such that rubrics are better off? Are we suggesting that chapter tactics will be weaker than the chaos equivalent, and that interceptors won't have the benefit of having a wider array of options to chose from (given rubrics are locked in by nature).

We have the core rules and both units sheets. That's 90% of the information. Assuming that the remaining 10% will be roughly equivalent for each isn't a huge jump in logic, particularly given the remaining 10% are the army wide bonuses.



Wrong. We don't have full rules for the CSM, OR Marines. We don't know what unit synergies will unfold. We have no clue what Chaptor (or Legion) tactics will involve. We don't know the full rules on all the add'l scenario rules available in the BRB. We don't have access to any of the other available TS/Chaos psy-powers. We don't know what a TS Sorc HQ will do for the Rubrics. We still have far less than 90% of the info. What we do have is most of the basic rules. I.E. the rules that are available free and simply allows for folks to set up a basic game with little flair and no add'l special rules.

I understand that claiming units/models/rules are DOA before said things become fully available is a Dakka tradition, but using a system that the dev's themselves claim is used to roughly equate models/squads and saying that one is clearly better than the other simply because they have an equal power level is stretching this well past the breaking point. And the OP putting this out there, then basically saying "You can't take anything else into consideration" is the equivalent of my 5yo, after getting told to go to his room for having a bad attitude, yelling "I'm going to my room and you can't talk to me anymore!", then slamming the door.

Power Levels were never intended to create absolute balance between two units. It is a rough approximation of the value of the unit, not a direct comparison between units to see which one is 'better'.

Sometimes, the only truth people understand, comes from the barrel of a gun.
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

We have most of the info. Not all of it-but most.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in ca
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





 Kandela wrote:
So... you are comparing a unit with an obvious counter-unit and bemoaning the fact that a counter-unit wins? What did you expect with 18 Heavy Bolter shot? That the normal infantry albeit with a better save and higher AP will just shake this kind of firepower off and wipe the squad next turn?


Fine pick a unit that counters Inceptors.

 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Anything that deals multiple wounds, has high Strength, and decent Rend.

So... Devastator Squad, maybe? Capable of removing an Inceptor per shot.

What's their PL?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in ca
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





 greatbigtree wrote:
There's no metric given here


Power Level 8. Power Level 8. Power Level 8

Did you get it that time?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Anything that deals multiple wounds, has high Strength, and decent Rend.

So... Devastator Squad, maybe? Capable of removing an Inceptor per shot.

What's their PL?


Oh okay a devastator squad that's fine you lose 4 wounds on the first turn since they can DS next to you and unload 18 rounds before you shoot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/27 17:53:47


 
   
Made in lu
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought






*Sarcasm senses tingling*

Worst case scenario for rubrics, the inteceptors drop shy of 9 inch, shoot and assault. Rounding down for 50%, so 0,444444 wounds is still no wound on average, but 0,500001 is a wound.
They fire all non pistols, so 6 shots a piece for 18 shots.
They kill 3, then charge doing nothing due the rubrics having a 2+ save in melee since their all is dust rules only cares about damage, not damage vs shooting. (as far as we know and apparently we know enough to make a final decision)
And their charge does nothing as 3 models isn't enough to trigger moral wounds.
The rubrics kill none on overwatch and neither can they kill anybody in melee.

Interceptors back out of combat on their turn and shoot the remaining rubrics down due to fly.
6 wounds remaining.

Worst case for interceptors, the rubrics are somehow within 8 inch due to a command ability or feth if I know, doesn't matter due to this being the worst case scenario. Maybe the interceptors just whiffed hard after deepstriking.
Either way it wouldn't cost more and from what we know this could totally be a thing so let's make it a certainty too because we know enough.
All warpflamers, auto hits, so 12 hits (and a bolt pistol), killing one and putting a wound on another. Loose one guy to overwatch.
But we also have the psyker putting out 1 mortal wound, killing another, so there is one guy after charging.
In melee, the sorcerer and the 3 remaining guys cause a 1 wound all together. If the sorcerer caused the wound, the last remaining guy dies.
Either unit walks back out of CC and the interceptor dies to the sorcerer since falling back prevents shooting, not psychic powers.
If the interceptor walks out he gets to kill one more rubric, but that isn't enough to kill the sorcerer who can walk back out on his turn or simply manifest if the interceptor already fell back and deal the last wound.

Rubrics win.
4 wounds remaining.

Yay, the power system works and is a great measure for relative strength.

*/sarcasm*

All I'm saying is, we don't know jack. All in all they seem indeed ROUGHLY equal from what we know, so the power points in this case seem fine for now.
We don't know all the rules, we don't know how army synergy matter, we don't know points, which are going to be a much better standard to go by, we don't know how faction specific bonuses and command points shake things up and we don't know how much rubrics being troops affects this match up.
There is also no guarantee at all that the interceptors will actually make the charge. Luck is also always a factor. Blessing of tzeentch might still be there in some form and could very well mean that the rubrics are even tougher than we think.
That could give them a real chance of not taking a single wound from shooting and the bolter backlash would then kill a guy and smite puts another wound on there, pretty much neutering the inteceptors.
We also don't know if you can manifest in combat, which would cause another wound in the case of the interceptor best case, making it 5-4 wounds. Not that the example is worth much, but yea.

So yea, again, we don't have enough to go on.
99% of a car is still a pile of junk if the battery is that last percentage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/27 17:58:00


 
   
Made in ca
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





 Vryce wrote:
Wrong. We don't have full rules for the CSM, OR Marines. We don't know what unit synergies will unfold. We have no clue what Chaptor (or Legion) tactics will involve. We don't know the full rules on all the add'l scenario rules available in the BRB. We don't have access to any of the other available TS/Chaos psy-powers. We don't know what a TS Sorc HQ will do for the Rubrics. We still have far less than 90% of the info. What we do have is most of the basic rules. I.E. the rules that are available free and simply allows for folks to set up a basic game with little flair and no add'l special rules.

I understand that claiming units/models/rules are DOA before said things become fully available is a Dakka tradition, but using a system that the dev's themselves claim is used to roughly equate models/squads and saying that one is clearly better than the other simply because they have an equal power level is stretching this well past the breaking point. And the OP putting this out there, then basically saying "You can't take anything else into consideration" is the equivalent of my 5yo, after getting told to go to his room for having a bad attitude, yelling "I'm going to my room and you can't talk to me anymore!", then slamming the door.

Power Levels were never intended to create absolute balance between two units. It is a rough approximation of the value of the unit, not a direct comparison between units to see which one is 'better'.


Find a unit that has the same power level that does to Inceptors what Inceptors do to Rubric Marines.

 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
 McGibs wrote:
Like, are they just all alone fighting each other on an empty table? Who's going first? The Rubriks are troops for TSons, so are there 4 more squads backing them up in a gunline? Are they in a Rhino like they should be? What about how they synergize with other tson characters?
Comparing units like this has so little value when there's so many other factors going on in any given game.


Any context you add to one side you can add to another. Context is irrlevent here.


Not reallv. Heard phrase whole is bigger than sum of it's parts?

Unit vs unit comparisons are worthless.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in ca
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





 Roknar wrote:
*Sarcasm senses tingling*

Worst case scenario for rubrics, the inteceptors drop shy of 9 inch, shoot and assault. Rounding down for 50%, so 0,444444 wounds is still no wound on average, but 0,500001 is a wound.
They fire all non pistols, so 6 shots a piece for 18 shots.
They kill 3, then charge doing nothing due the rubrics having a 2+ save in melee since their all is dust rules only cares about damage, not damage vs shooting. (as far as we know and apparently we know enough to make a final decision)
And their charge does nothing as 3 models isn't enough to trigger moral wounds.
The rubrics kill none on overwatch and neither can they kill anybody in melee.

Interceptors back out of combat on their turn and shoot the remaining rubrics down due to fly.
6 wounds remaining.

Worst case for interceptors, the rubrics are somehow within 8 inch due to a command ability or feth if I know, doesn't matter due to this being the worst case scenario. Maybe the interceptors just whiffed hard after deepstriking.
Either way it wouldn't cost more and from what we know this could totally be a thing so let's make it a certainty too because we know enough.
All warpflamers, auto hits, so 12 hits (and a bolt pistol), killing one and putting a wound on another. Loose one guy to overwatch.
But we also have the psyker putting out 1 mortal wound, killing another, so there is one guy after charging.
In melee, the sorcerer and the 3 remaining guys cause a 1 wound all together. If the sorcerer caused the wound, the last remaining guy dies.
Either unit walks back out of CC and the interceptor dies to the sorcerer since falling back prevents shooting, not psychic powers.
If the interceptor walks out he gets to kill one more rubric, but that isn't enough to kill the sorcerer who can walk back out on his turn or simply manifest if the interceptor already fell back and deal the last wound.

Rubrics win.
4 wounds remaining.

Yay, the power system works and is a great measure for relative strength.

*/sarcasm*

All I'm saying is, we don't know jack. All in all they seem indeed ROUGHLY equal from what we know, so the power points in this case seem fine for now.
We don't know all the rules, we don't know how army synergy matter, we don't know points, which are going to be a much better standard to go by, we don't know how faction specific bonuses and command points shake things up and we don't know how much rubrics being troops affects this match up.
There is also no guarantee at all that the interceptors will actually make the charge. Luck is also always a factor. Blessing of tzeentch might still be there in some form and could very well mean that the rubrics are even tougher than we think.
That could give them a real chance of not taking a single wound from shooting and the bolter backlash would then kill a guy and smite puts another wound on there, pretty much neutering the inteceptors.
We also don't know if you can manifest in combat, which would cause another wound in the case of the interceptor best case, making it 5-4 wounds. Not that the example is worth much, but yea.

So yea, again, we don't have enough to go on.
99% of a car is still a pile of junk if the battery is that last percentage.



Except the probelm is if you have a unit of Rubrics with all warpflamers a decent player isn't going to DS 9" away they are going to DS 18" away and stay out of your range. This is the problem, for the Rubrics win you have to have a Marine player that is absolutely abysmal. You can't say Oh well they all have flamers if they charge me, because if you have all flamers NO ONE is going to charge that unit. You have to look at it from a temporally logically perspective. What will the enemy know BEFORE the game begins, how would he act in that case. But, I will say this if TS can some how swap weapons during the charge phase sure Inceptors lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
 McGibs wrote:
Like, are they just all alone fighting each other on an empty table? Who's going first? The Rubriks are troops for TSons, so are there 4 more squads backing them up in a gunline? Are they in a Rhino like they should be? What about how they synergize with other tson characters?
Comparing units like this has so little value when there's so many other factors going on in any given game.


Any context you add to one side you can add to another. Context is irrlevent here.


Not reallv. Heard phrase whole is bigger than sum of it's parts?

Unit vs unit comparisons are worthless.


Tell why not really. Dont just assert that I am wrong because you said so. If we assume that they will both have access to the same abilities for about the same price you end up with the same result.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 greatbigtree wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

A direct comparison of two things is not "making up" statistics.

You apparently dont understand the difference of total ignorance and specific ignorance. We know enough. We know that by adding 0 power points to Rubric Marines you would have to double thier move and give them better deployment options at the very least. Which in my humble opnion is an absurdity that sholudn't be considered. They have also given us a metric by which to measure which is what I did. I compared directly two units THE GAME DEVS say are about equal. And did a pretty good job of showing how they are far from it.


Lulz... you are specifically ignorant about most of the premise you present. You are creating a specific scenario in which your numbers... which I'm going to have to double check now... favour a bias you had before you even began. You have 10 pieces of a 100 piece puzzle and believe yourself capable of predicting the remaining 90 pieces. Congratulations! What's tomorrows lottery numbers? You only need 7/45 pieces to get that one right.

There's no metric given here, as that would indicate sufficient information given to make a clear decisions. You're speculating based on incomplete information. Period. There's no other endgame. And you're upset that in the specific scenario that you envision, that no one else is allowed to alter, that the worst-case scenario is that Rubrics bite it to the other models.

How agrievating that I'll need to crunch those numbers today.


Tell me what the following word is "comparis_n" oh look that is SPECIFIC ignorance we CAN extrapolate information from what Devs have told us and by comparing current rules with new rules. Like AP in general goes like this. AP 4/3/2/ transfers to AP-1/-2/-3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BoomWolf wrote:
The fun part here is, that even assuming his calculations were spot-on, and the inceptors did easily beat rubrics at the same power level, it still ignores two important factors:

1-power level is a really rough estimate, same power level=/=same point cost.

2-not all units are equal versus all units. bad matchups and good matchups exist. and inceptors are probably some of the worst matchup possible for rubrics. they are just not made to fight that king of enemy, they are made to butcher line infantry.


Then show a "bad matchup" for Inceptors

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/27 18:13:10


 
   
Made in lu
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought






You completely missed my point it seems. Besides, I said it's the worst case scenario for interceptors, how you get there is irrelevant as far as math is concerned.

With all that we do know, there is still EVERYTHING that can change with what we don't know. And even if mathwise, the rubrics lose completely to interceptors in terms of doing damage, that is STILL not a measure of how valuable one unit is compared to another. Rubrics could still be more valuable at taking objectives just as an example, while still having decent firepower. Or by virtue of being troops, allow you to gain more CP than interceptors or they could be better in a million other ways. Other ways that could even mean that the rubrics are no less deadly/durable.

You're putting too much stock into the information we have and power levels in particular.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's another example. Assuming power levels are maxed units, then rubrics could be much cheaper in points. The interceprs don't have any options to be cheaper, rubrics do. Their bolters are already decent, but with the points difference you could maybe get some tzangors/cultists to shield the rubrics. Combined with terrain, the intecerptors might not even be able to get a shot at rubrics, while the rubrics can shoot at them due the longer range while the interceptors then get charged by cultists.

The interceptors need line of sight to the rubrics and need to stay 9 inch away from BOTH units. That example could be worthless or it could be viable, we just don't know.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/27 18:23:11


 
   
Made in ca
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





 Roknar wrote:
You completely missed my point it seems. Besides, I said it's the worst case scenario for interceptors, how you get there is irrelevant as far as math is concerned.

With all that we do know, there is still EVERYTHING that can change with what we don't know. And even if mathwise, the rubrics lose completely to interceptors in terms of doing damage, that is STILL not a measure of how valuable one unit is compared to another. Rubrics could still be more valuable at taking objectives just as an example, while still having decent firepower. Or by virtue of being troops, allow you to gain more CP than interceptors or they could be better in a million other ways. Other ways that could even mean that the rubrics are no less deadly/durable.

You're putting too much stock into the information we have and power levels in particular.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's another example. Assuming power levels are maxed units, then rubrics could be much cheaper in points. The interceprs don't have any options to be cheaper, rubrics do. Their bolters are already decent, but with the points difference you could maybe get some tzangors/cultists to shield the rubrics. Combined with terrain, the intecerptors might not even be able to get a shot at rubrics, while the rubrics can shoot at them due the longer range while the interceptors then get charged by cultists.

The interceptors need line of sight to the rubrics and need to stay 9 inch away from BOTH units. That example could be worthless or it could be viable, we just don't know.


Oh I do get your point but what I'm saying is why is the worst case scenario for rubrics a competent Inceptor player and a worse case for an Inceptor is an incompetent Inceptor player. What would happen if you had an incompetent Rubric player that kept trying to chase down these guys with flamers.

Except we know that PL is not maxxed out units. To add 5 Rubricae you have to add 6 PL to the unit.

 
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut






Find a unit that has the same power level that does to Inceptors what Inceptors do to Rubric Marines.

Would you kindly tell me how? How are we going to find a unit that has same power level if the rules for Inceptors and Rubric all come from LEAKS and we know next to nothing about power level for pretty much anything?
   
Made in lu
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought






I meant with maxed in the sense of maxed unit options. So potentially the cost of warp flamers and other force weapons and warpflame pistols. It's most likely not going to contribute much, but the fact of the matter is that we don't know, which was my main point.

The rubrics being within 8 inch in the interceptors worst case scenario is completely independent of player ability. What is the worst case for interceptors? Being within a full force rubric marine unit with warp flamers. The math doesn't account for how likely that specific case is to actually manifest.

My main point however was that the math doesn't account for a whole slew of things. And why does it have to be an incompent interceptor player for this to occur? There could be a command ability that let's you deepstrike rubrics for example. There is currently a warlord trait that allows this. It could VERY much be possible without any control on the opponents side. And being a CP means it would be free and furthermore, with the rubrics being troops might make it so that it's actually easier to acquire CP with rubrics than it is with a marine player wanting to use inteceptors. That could be one factor that in favour of rubrics too.

The math makes no assumptions on how you got into that worst case, only that it's a potential situation. And when we take the worst case for either unit, the two end up fairly close in performance. The rubrics are only slightly weaker but possibly cheaper in actual points.
This all being a vacuum as well makes the math pretty pointless.
In a real game a TSons player migth now want to take the odd pure flamer unit as a defense for all the T1 madness. And maybe there is a cost difference that allows the purchase of a rhino to get them close pretty fast.
So your so called competent player might have to burn a unit off an objective and the interceptors are the only unit that can do it, and the turn after the TSons player brings in the flamer rubrics.
Comparing two units in a vacuum is already loaded with issues and doing so without even knowing all the rules makes it no better than playing the lottery.
   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
 Roknar wrote:
You completely missed my point it seems. Besides, I said it's the worst case scenario for interceptors, how you get there is irrelevant as far as math is concerned.

With all that we do know, there is still EVERYTHING that can change with what we don't know. And even if mathwise, the rubrics lose completely to interceptors in terms of doing damage, that is STILL not a measure of how valuable one unit is compared to another. Rubrics could still be more valuable at taking objectives just as an example, while still having decent firepower. Or by virtue of being troops, allow you to gain more CP than interceptors or they could be better in a million other ways. Other ways that could even mean that the rubrics are no less deadly/durable.

You're putting too much stock into the information we have and power levels in particular.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's another example. Assuming power levels are maxed units, then rubrics could be much cheaper in points. The interceprs don't have any options to be cheaper, rubrics do. Their bolters are already decent, but with the points difference you could maybe get some tzangors/cultists to shield the rubrics. Combined with terrain, the intecerptors might not even be able to get a shot at rubrics, while the rubrics can shoot at them due the longer range while the interceptors then get charged by cultists.

The interceptors need line of sight to the rubrics and need to stay 9 inch away from BOTH units. That example could be worthless or it could be viable, we just don't know.


Oh I do get your point but what I'm saying is why is the worst case scenario for rubrics a competent Inceptor player and a worse case for an Inceptor is an incompetent Inceptor player. What would happen if you had an incompetent Rubric player that kept trying to chase down these guys with flamers.

Except we know that PL is not maxxed out units. To add 5 Rubricae you have to add 6 PL to the unit.


Are you still going on about this? Dude you can math hammer, theory hammer, etc until the heatdeath of the universe but you won't actually know which unit is better until you play them within the greater context of the armies they're a part of.

All you're doing is spinning your wheels angrily and making yourself upset for no reason.


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Dark Elder have Disintegrators which deal 2 damage flat, so get some Warriors with those. Done. And then those Warriors obviously aren't a great counter to Rubric Marines.

Oh look. Counters exist for different units. Imagine that, huh?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in lu
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought






We also don't know how crowded some slots might be. With old marines and nu marines both sharing the adeptus astartes keyword you effectively end up having two factions worth of options per slot. Given how many slots the new detachments appear to have that might be a non issue but yea, still comes back to not knowing enough to make definitive judgments.
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut






It's just a little bit silly to compare Fast Attack with Troops...
Troops are meant to be a swiss army knife and you compare it to a machete and complain that it won't cut wood the same.
Iceptors are in my opinion meant to have an absolutely devastating alpha strike in order to force trade between units (maybe some pesky devastator unit that dig in some terrain and pop-ed your precious tank, maybe some troops that are sitting backfield guarding some objective) and most probably draw huge amount of fire from your opponent as he make sure that won't happen again. They can come on turn 2 or 3. Sometimes only those 2-3 turn matter as your opponent tables you...
   
Made in ca
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





 Roknar wrote:
I meant with maxed in the sense of maxed unit options. So potentially the cost of warp flamers and other force weapons and warpflame pistols. It's most likely not going to contribute much, but the fact of the matter is that we don't know, which was my main point.


That's fine but then you should consider how a person would play if you had all flamers.

 Roknar wrote:
The rubrics being within 8 inch in the interceptors worst case scenario is completely independent of player ability. What is the worst case for interceptors? Being within a full force rubric marine unit with warp flamers. The math doesn't account for how likely that specific case is to actually manifest.


It is not independent of player ability. One unit has a 10" move and can deploy after the other restricted by 9" away from enemy units. 100% of the time Inceptors will be able to out maneuver Rubrics. 100% of the time they will be in a better position after deployment, as long as you assume both players are competent. ANY change you make to anything the Rubrics can do you have to allow a change for the Inceptors as well, and because Rubrics are playing catch up they are going

 Roknar wrote:
My main point however was that the math doesn't account for a whole slew of things. And why does it have to be an incompent interceptor player for this to occur? There could be a command ability that let's you deepstrike rubrics for example. There is currently a warlord trait that allows this. It could VERY much be possible without any control on the opponents side. And being a CP means it would be free and furthermore, with the rubrics being troops might make it so that it's actually easier to acquire CP with rubrics than it is with a marine player wanting to use inteceptors. That could be one factor that in favour of rubrics too.


Except its not free is it. It costs CP and anything you give to one your going to give to another so now I give a some sort of bonus to the Inceptors. This is what I mean when I say adding context doesent matter its an equation and these two units are supposed to be around equal so if you add something to one side you have to add it to the other, which is going to be a push, Rubrics are going to be paying catch up the entire time.

 Roknar wrote:
The math makes no assumptions on how you got into that worst case, only that it's a potential situation. And when we take the worst case for either unit, the two end up fairly close in performance. The rubrics are only slightly weaker but possibly cheaper in actual points.
This all being a vacuum as well makes the math pretty pointless.
In a real game a TSons player migth now want to take the odd pure flamer unit as a defense for all the T1 madness. And maybe there is a cost difference that allows the purchase of a rhino to get them close pretty fast.
So your so called competent player might have to burn a unit off an objective and the interceptors are the only unit that can do it, and the turn after the TSons player brings in the flamer rubrics.
Comparing two units in a vacuum is already loaded with issues and doing so without even knowing all the rules makes it no better than playing the lottery.


No the math doesn't. YOU have to you have to assume a player would think the best thing to do is to charge a unit full of flamers, which I find unreasonable. Now if you want to say that units are all total unknowns at the start of the game sure except that is not how I play and as far as I can tell its not how most people play. The cost difference should be around 15% which allows 25 points for a Rhino, again unreasonable, and I'm not going to address the rest since you made an assumption without checking how likely it could happen. Comparing two units in a vacuum is only a problem for people that don't understand that if things are balanced then you can add all the context you want, but in the end all it will do is push the end result farther down the road with the same gap as you started with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Dark Elder have Disintegrators which deal 2 damage flat, so get some Warriors with those. Done. And then those Warriors obviously aren't a great counter to Rubric Marines.

Oh look. Counters exist for different units. Imagine that, huh?


Whats the range how many shots what the toughness of the models, if its what I think your referring too this isn't going to end well for the Rubrics.

Roknar wrote:We also don't know how crowded some slots might be. With old marines and nu marines both sharing the adeptus astartes keyword you effectively end up having two factions worth of options per slot. Given how many slots the new detachments appear to have that might be a non issue but yea, still comes back to not knowing enough to make definitive judgments.


Now your getting into the "just pick the units the devs want you to pick".

Kandela wrote:It's just a little bit silly to compare Fast Attack with Troops...
Troops are meant to be a swiss army knife and you compare it to a machete and complain that it won't cut wood the same.
Iceptors are in my opinion meant to have an absolutely devastating alpha strike in order to force trade between units (maybe some pesky devastator unit that dig in some terrain and pop-ed your precious tank, maybe some troops that are sitting backfield guarding some objective) and most probably draw huge amount of fire from your opponent as he make sure that won't happen again. They can come on turn 2 or 3. Sometimes only those 2-3 turn matter as your opponent tables you...


Here is what you just said. Its just silly to compare two units that should be around the same power level.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/27 20:10:57


 
   
Made in us
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Ute nation

Rubric marines are a fine match for interceptors, between mortal wounds, a soul reaper cannon, better range, and better AP, they are a great answer for the absurd amount of shots the interceptors have.

Aspiring sorc
4 x rubric marines
+ soulreaper cannon

Aspiring sorc
2/3 chance of one mortal wound a round = .66 wound
1/6 chance of doing an additional mortal wound = .16 Wound
2/3 * 1/3 * 2/3 = .15 wounds unsaved wounds a round

Soul reaper cannon
2/3 * 1/2 * 5/6 * 4 = 1.11 unsaved wounds a round

3 x Rubric Marine
2/3 * 1/3 * 2/3 = .15 wounds unsaved wounds a round

24" - 18"+ = 1.71 wounds per round
18" - 12"+ = 2.53 wounds per round
12"- = 3.13 wounds per round

3 Interceptors
Interceptors
2/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 3 = .45 * 2 = .9 wounds per round * 3 = 2.7 wounds per round

who wins depends on who goes first,
If interceptors go first:
First round the interceptors knock down 3 rubrics
Rubrics respond with 2 wounds killing one interceptor
Second round Interceptors get 1.8 wounds thru finishing the fight

If rubrics go first:
First round rubrics get 2.5 wounds thru
Interceptors get 1.8 wounds in return, rounded up to two rubrics dead
Next round rubrics get 2.2 wounds thru killing another interceptor
Interceptor gets 1 and then the rubrics finish him off.

that seems pretty balanced, and that's before we even know what death to the false emperor does, if it's hatred style reroll ones that could be a check mark in the rubrics favor.

How did this get to three pages without anyone going over the OPs math?

Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.  
   
Made in us
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How did it get to 3 pages? It's an idiotic comparison based on incomplete information. We don't know what all their special rules do yet. We don't know what force multipliers will exist for them. We haven't seen a single army in a index yet let alone 2 to compare them. We don't know if we are comparing a FA to a Troop/elite. We have no idea what we are actually looking at.

What an incredible waste of time.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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Soul Reaper cannons can't be used until it's a 10 man unit. So a more comparative point is that with two Interceptor Squads. At that point it evens out.

Just because someone is named Thousand-Son-Sorcerer doesn't mean they know what's going on with Rubric Marines. They actually look good to me, and I'm hardcore along with my regular group.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





 Grimgold wrote:
Rubric marines are a fine match for interceptors, between mortal wounds, a soul reaper cannon, better range, and better AP, they are a great answer for the absurd amount of shots the interceptors have.

Aspiring sorc
4 x rubric marines
+ soulreaper cannon

Aspiring sorc
2/3 chance of one mortal wound a round = .66 wound
1/6 chance of doing an additional mortal wound = .16 Wound
2/3 * 1/3 * 2/3 = .15 wounds unsaved wounds a round

Soul reaper cannon
2/3 * 1/2 * 5/6 * 4 = 1.11 unsaved wounds a round

3 x Rubric Marine
2/3 * 1/3 * 2/3 = .15 wounds unsaved wounds a round

24" - 18"+ = 1.71 wounds per round
18" - 12"+ = 2.53 wounds per round
12"- = 3.13 wounds per round

3 Interceptors
Interceptors
2/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 3 = .45 * 2 = .9 wounds per round * 3 = 2.7 wounds per round

who wins depends on who goes first,
If interceptors go first:
First round the interceptors knock down 3 rubrics
Rubrics respond with 2 wounds killing one interceptor
Second round Interceptors get 1.8 wounds thru finishing the fight

If rubrics go first:
First round rubrics get 2.5 wounds thru
Interceptors get 1.8 wounds in return, rounded up to two rubrics dead
Next round rubrics get 2.2 wounds thru killing another interceptor
Interceptor gets 1 and then the rubrics finish him off.

that seems pretty balanced, and that's before we even know what death to the false emperor does, if it's hatred style reroll ones that could be a check mark in the rubrics favor.

How did this get to three pages without anyone going over the OPs math?


Because they did you cant have a soul reaper cannon in a 5 man squad. You have a 1/6 chance of doing no wounds with Smite which means the average is .66 mortal wounds per turn. Lastly even if all your math is right Inceptors are all but guaranteed to get the first go every game since they can DS when and where you want them.

 
   
Made in us
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Chicago, Illinois

 Lance845 wrote:
How did it get to 3 pages? It's an idiotic comparison based on incomplete information. We don't know what all their special rules do yet. We don't know what force multipliers will exist for them. We haven't seen a single army in an index yet let alone 2 to compare them. We don't know if we are comparing an FA to a Troop/elite. We have no idea what we are actually looking at.

What an incredible waste of time.


You're telling me, I think most of these complaint threads are just knee-jerking not too similar to their favorite toys being replaced. It is not complete argument otherwise.

For all, we know the new Thousand Sons are less powerful or more powerful. We don't know anything yet, it's far too early to call anything. We have incomplete information for us to reliably argue anything other than the looks of the models (but even then there is an argument that we still can't even about that!)

I thought about making a thread asking people's thoughts whether these Primarius Marines will replace regular space marines, but again I thought critically and said: "No we don't have enough information and would cause unnecessary friction."


From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kandela wrote:
Find a unit that has the same power level that does to Inceptors what Inceptors do to Rubric Marines.

Would you kindly tell me how? How are we going to find a unit that has same power level if the rules for Inceptors and Rubric all come from LEAKS and we know next to nothing about power level for pretty much anything?


We could look at units we do have that are similar. Like plague marines, 7 power for a unit of 5.

Well, at range plague marines are better against inceptors than rubrics, assuming two blight launchers and one plasma gun. They are actually better against every target, even inside rapid fire/pistol range. Even against single wound infantry plague marines outperform rubrics. I don't want to type the math out for every single encounter, but against single wound normal marines, rubrics average out 2 wounds shooting in rapid fire range (assuming the sorc kept his pistol) while plague marines manage 2.4ish.

Plague marines are also tougher against interceptors as well as everything else. So point plague marines.

Rubrics again have the rather odd distinction of.... doing better in melee. Again. Less so this time, as the plague marines get there single power fist to balance the force weapon, but more because the pistol shots when locked in cc beat the plague knives. Well, they also have the advantage of a sorc who wipes the unit 1/18 times he casts a spell. Which isn't really that great.

And again, this is a comparison to a unit cheaper than the rubrics. And the rubrics still come out looking not great/downright bad.

At this point, a tsons army has to have a way to mitigate perils for this unit to work. Otherwise that sorcerer is dead weight.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/27 21:49:11


 
   
Made in ca
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Soul Reaper cannons can't be used until it's a 10 man unit. So a more comparative point is that with two Interceptor Squads. At that point it evens out.

Just because someone is named Thousand-Son-Sorcerer doesn't mean they know what's going on with Rubric Marines. They actually look good to me, and I'm hardcore along with my regular group.


Okay lets compare 10 Rubrics to 1 unit of 6 Inceptors

Deployment comes you put your squad on the table, I DS 18" away unload 36 shots into the unit. you lose 4-5 guys, you move up 5" your range is 13" you get 7 shots 4 at S 5 AP -3 resulting in 1.089 wounds then 4 bolter shots cause .431 wounds. Smite causes another .66 wounds. total of 2 wounds 1 guy lost. I move forward 10" shoot 30 more rounds take another 4 guys leaving 1-2 guys in the unit 3" charge .825 wounds lets assume you kill 1 guy with overwatch you still lose the unit and I am left with 66% of my unit.

MAYBE just MAYBE I do know what im talking about and there is a problem. Had that even crossed your mind?

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think that people are approaching this slightly wrong

Don't compare Rubric killing Interceptors and vice/versa

Instead, let's see how they fare against a few standards.

vs T4, Av3+ MEQ
vs T3, Av5+ GEQ
vs T5, Av4+ Transport
vs T7, Av3+ Dreadnaught
vs T8, Av3+ Tank


6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
Made in ca
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





 Asherian Command wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
How did it get to 3 pages? It's an idiotic comparison based on incomplete information. We don't know what all their special rules do yet. We don't know what force multipliers will exist for them. We haven't seen a single army in an index yet let alone 2 to compare them. We don't know if we are comparing an FA to a Troop/elite. We have no idea what we are actually looking at.

What an incredible waste of time.


You're telling me, I think most of these complaint threads are just knee-jerking not too similar to their favorite toys being replaced. It is not complete argument otherwise.

For all, we know the new Thousand Sons are less powerful or more powerful. We don't know anything yet, it's far too early to call anything. We have incomplete information for us to reliably argue anything other than the looks of the models (but even then there is an argument that we still can't even about that!)

I thought about making a thread asking people's thoughts whether these Primarius Marines will replace regular space marines, but again I thought critically and said: "No we don't have enough information and would cause unnecessary friction."



OMG your right we know nothing. I mean I'm assuming their T, weapon S, Wounds, Movement, Deployment Options, Unit Options, What they need to wound, Armor saves, what the rules are for weapons...or

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/724730.page

we know a lot.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Talamare wrote:
I think that people are approaching this slightly wrong

Don't compare Rubric killing Interceptors and vice/versa

Instead, let's see how they fare against a few standards.

vs T4, Av3+ MEQ
vs T3, Av5+ GEQ
vs T5, Av4+ Transport
vs T7, Av3+ Dreadnaught
vs T8, Av3+ Tank


I've already done that the reason why I'm comparing the two is because its a faster way to get an Idea of what will happen when these individual units will do when they go up against units like that. Inceptors preform better in ever catagory except in T10+ where rubric marines preform 50% better problem is 50% of .10 is laughable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/27 20:51:24


 
   
Made in lu
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought






 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Spoiler:
 Roknar wrote:
I meant with maxed in the sense of maxed unit options. So potentially the cost of warp flamers and other force weapons and warpflame pistols. It's most likely not going to contribute much, but the fact of the matter is that we don't know, which was my main point.


That's fine but then you should consider how a person would play if you had all flamers.

 Roknar wrote:
The rubrics being within 8 inch in the interceptors worst case scenario is completely independent of player ability. What is the worst case for interceptors? Being within a full force rubric marine unit with warp flamers. The math doesn't account for how likely that specific case is to actually manifest.


It is not independent of player ability. One unit has a 10" move and can deploy after the other restricted by 9" away from enemy units. 100% of the time Inceptors will be able to out maneuver Rubrics. 100% of the time they will be in a better position after deployment, as long as you assume both players are competent. ANY change you make to anything the Rubrics can do you have to allow a change for the Inceptors as well, and because Rubrics are playing catch up they are going

 Roknar wrote:
My main point however was that the math doesn't account for a whole slew of things. And why does it have to be an incompent interceptor player for this to occur? There could be a command ability that let's you deepstrike rubrics for example. There is currently a warlord trait that allows this. It could VERY much be possible without any control on the opponents side. And being a CP means it would be free and furthermore, with the rubrics being troops might make it so that it's actually easier to acquire CP with rubrics than it is with a marine player wanting to use inteceptors. That could be one factor that in favour of rubrics too.


Except its not free is it. It costs CP and anything you give to one your going to give to another so now I give a some sort of bonus to the Inceptors. This is what I mean when I say adding context doesent matter its an equation and these two units are supposed to be around equal so if you add something to one side you have to add it to the other, which is going to be a push, Rubrics are going to be paying catch up the entire time.

 Roknar wrote:
The math makes no assumptions on how you got into that worst case, only that it's a potential situation. And when we take the worst case for either unit, the two end up fairly close in performance. The rubrics are only slightly weaker but possibly cheaper in actual points.
This all being a vacuum as well makes the math pretty pointless.
In a real game a TSons player migth now want to take the odd pure flamer unit as a defense for all the T1 madness. And maybe there is a cost difference that allows the purchase of a rhino to get them close pretty fast.
So your so called competent player might have to burn a unit off an objective and the interceptors are the only unit that can do it, and the turn after the TSons player brings in the flamer rubrics.
Comparing two units in a vacuum is already loaded with issues and doing so without even knowing all the rules makes it no better than playing the lottery.


No the math doesn't. YOU have to you have to assume a player would think the best thing to do is to charge a unit full of flamers, which I find unreasonable. Now if you want to say that units are all total unknowns at the start of the game sure except that is not how I play and as far as I can tell its not how most people play. The cost difference should be around 15% which allows 25 points for a Rhino, again unreasonable, and I'm not going to address the rest since you made an assumption without checking how likely it could happen. Comparing two units in a vacuum is only a problem for people that don't understand that if things are balanced then you can add all the context you want, but in the end all it will do is push the end result farther down the road with the same gap as you started with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Dark Elder have Disintegrators which deal 2 damage flat, so get some Warriors with those. Done. And then those Warriors obviously aren't a great counter to Rubric Marines.

Oh look. Counters exist for different units. Imagine that, huh?


Whats the range how many shots what the toughness of the models, if its what I think your referring too this isn't going to end well for the Rubrics.

Roknar wrote:We also don't know how crowded some slots might be. With old marines and nu marines both sharing the adeptus astartes keyword you effectively end up having two factions worth of options per slot. Given how many slots the new detachments appear to have that might be a non issue but yea, still comes back to not knowing enough to make definitive judgments.


Now your getting into the "just pick the units the devs want you to pick".

Kandela wrote:It's just a little bit silly to compare Fast Attack with Troops...
Troops are meant to be a swiss army knife and you compare it to a machete and complain that it won't cut wood the same.
Iceptors are in my opinion meant to have an absolutely devastating alpha strike in order to force trade between units (maybe some pesky devastator unit that dig in some terrain and pop-ed your precious tank, maybe some troops that are sitting backfield guarding some objective) and most probably draw huge amount of fire from your opponent as he make sure that won't happen again. They can come on turn 2 or 3. Sometimes only those 2-3 turn matter as your opponent tables you...


Here is what you just said. Its just silly to compare two units that should be around the same power level.


Sigh, you're twisting my words and taking them out of context.
I'm saying that a judgement made not knowing 100% if the facts is the the same as knowing 0%.

You keep saying that adding context doesn't matter since both get it, but that's not true.
Take the humble rhino for example. space marines and csm get it, but you don't know about formations.
Let's just assume for the purpose of discussion that being able to add a havoc launcher is a big deal and so SM rhino << CSM rhino

Space marines then get a formation which makes them free, which is huge, but so what..then csm can get some thing too...except they never did.
So now free rhino >>>>>>>not free rhino.

And don't go picking that apart. Rhinos being free is 1, ONE special rule, and yet it makes a HUUUGE difference.
So despite knowing just about everything, you're world is suddenly turned upside down.
But even then things get complicated, because in order to take that you need a specific list etc, etc.

Point being (and my ONLY point), you simply cannot go ahead and make a decisive judgment about any unit in the game right now.
We don't have all the facts, all you can do at this point is be concerned and wait.
   
Made in us
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 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

I've already done that the reason why I'm comparing the two is because its a faster way to get an Idea of what will happen when these individual units will do when they go up against units like that. Inceptors preform better in ever catagory except in T10+ where rubric marines preform 50% better problem is 50% of .10 is laughable.

Aye, and I'm actually on your side on this matter.

The 1AP advantage is basically a wash to the 1STR advantage.
They we just need to consider the vast weight of fire advantage that Interceptors have.


6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
 
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