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 Lance845 wrote:
Yeah? Did you take into account the fact that a inceptor unit cannot be expanded? That 3 models is as big as tbe unit gets? Or how about that since this thread has started the core rules have leaked and there is no longer contesting an objective. The unit with the most models within 3 inches of an objective has ownership.

Right. You didn't. Because we didnt know. And we still dont know everything. Until we have some real context for how it will actually work on the table you are trying to come to a absolute conclusion based on partial information.

I.e. a total waste of time.

The fact that the comparison is based around power and not points already was a red flag that it was a waste of time.

Assault weapons like flamers can run and shoot at minus 1 to hit. Flamers hit automatically.

3"+5"+3.5"+8"= 19.5" threat range on average for an all flamer unit on a disembark.

Average roll for hits would be 3.5 so for Rubrics (warpflame
pistol out of range) alone that's 14 hits.

14 wounds that wound on 5s means 4.6666666666667 wounds get through. Of those the Inceptors save on a 5+ (3+ degraded by -2) means that of those they save 1.5 wounds which means that 2.5 wounds go through on average.

This is of course not taking in anything other than pure statlines into consideration so who knows if the banner could push up the number of wounds the target unit takes, or if a Chapter Tactic could make the Inceptors harder to hit or able to shrug off wounds.

Edit: 4.67-1.5 is 3.17. So basically 3 wounds go through on avg, not 2.5.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Huh. Okay, so 3" disembark, 5" move, meaning they need a 2+ advance to hit the Inceptors, with 5d6 (17.5) S4 Rend-2 hits, or 4 wounds.

So even in the best case scenario (they have a rhino (putting their PL above the Inceptors), the Inceptors choose to go after them, they don't flub the advance roll) they don't manage to wipe out the Inceptors with shooting.

Is it confirmed you can advance and charge?

Can you advance after disembarking?

I believe you can do everything normally after disembarking, so yes.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Tyran wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Most likely T7, somewhere from 7-10 wounds, 3+ armour save.

So, Inceptors, with their 18 shots, 12 hits, 4 wounds, 2 go through. Likely not enough to do any real damage.

And then the Rubrics do what? Sit scared in their Rhino, and do paltry damage to the Inceptors, or get out, get the first volley, and then get crumped?

If they are all armed with warpflamers, they can easily kill the Inceptors with shooting followed by assault.

Inceptors drop in 18" away (no scatter).

Rubrics disembark 3" from their Rhino, move up 6", and end 9" away. Warpflamers help how?

No warpflamer range is 8

I know. But I got a few things wrong-Rubrics move 5", and they can advance and shoot.

So they need a 2+ on their advance to shoot. THAT BEING SAID-that'll kill MAYBE TWO Inceptors, and likely less.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I believe you can do everything normally after disembarking, so yes.

Disembarked models may act as normal after disembarking. Granted they say "move" in the example list of things you can do, but I assume they mean "advance" and not "move as normal" as that would be effectivley an 8" move out of the transport...

Basically if both players are playing well it's a close goddam fight that comes down to either what else is going on in the battle, dice, equipment choices or how on fire the aspiring sorcerer is.

Seriously, in a vacuum chamber 'I stand 17" away in cover you stand 17" away in cover' fight, how fire the aspiring sorcerer is is the single biggest determining factor since he can kill the entire squad of inceptors in 2 psychic phases despite their defenses if he rolls extremely well, whereas the entire inceptor squad needs 4ish turns to kill the rubrics if they're full strength for all 4.

If close combat happens the rubrics are at a MASSIVE advantage, even with less attacks swinging secons AND wounding on 5s for the regular guys.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I know. But I got a few things wrong-Rubrics move 5", and they can advance and shoot.

So they need a 2+ on their advance to shoot. THAT BEING SAID-that'll kill MAYBE TWO Inceptors, and likely less.

On average the four Inferno flamers kill one and wound another. Not enough to fail Battleshock as the highest the Marines would roll would be a 7 (d6+1 casualty).

That said, it does shownthat flamers actually might be more dangerous that people currently expect since Rubrics should run less than half the cost per model of an Inceptor in points.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Really? So... What bonuses do Thousand Sons get from their LT?

What about from being Tzeentch?

What bonuses or penalties do the Inceptors get from their CT?

What does the Thousand Sons banner do?

Are we accounting that 1 in 6 attacks by CSM in melee get an extra attack?

Why aren't we looking at how many wounds from shooting the Inceptors will take at 19-24"? You know, the range they can't shoot but be shot for situations where they don't start inside their range band (perhaps they landed and wiped out some cultists and are now focusing on the Rubrics)?

Why assume they make the charge when averages mean they need to roll a 9+ to make the charge and even with a reroll are less likely to make it on turn one instead of being Overwatched, then shot again the next turn and counter-charged?

I don't see the objectivity of having all information present and accounted for, not fairness by accounting for situations that would hurt the Inceptors. Everything in this thread is geared towards supporting the assumption that in a straight fit the Inceptors will ALWAYS have and advantage despite the fact that it's impossible for that to actually be true.

So many irrelevant demands. Unless you're expecting that they will double the effectiveness of their shooting, which is just delusional.

SilverAlien proved that Interceptors are anywhere around 150% to 250% the shooting capability of Rubrics. They also better in melee too.

 Talamare wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Really? So... What bonuses do Thousand Sons get from their LT?

What about from being Tzeentch?

What bonuses or penalties do the Inceptors get from their CT?

What does the Thousand Sons banner do?

Are we accounting that 1 in 6 attacks by CSM in melee get an extra attack?

Why aren't we looking at how many wounds from shooting the Inceptors will take at 19-24"? You know, the range they can't shoot but be shot for situations where they don't start inside their range band (perhaps they landed and wiped out some cultists and are now focusing on the Rubrics)?

Why assume they make the charge when averages mean they need to roll a 9+ to make the charge and even with a reroll are less likely to make it on turn one instead of being Overwatched, then shot again the next turn and counter-charged?

I don't see the objectivity of having all information present and accounted for, not fairness by accounting for situations that would hurt the Inceptors. Everything in this thread is geared towards supporting the assumption that in a straight fit the Inceptors will ALWAYS have and advantage despite the fact that it's impossible for that to actually be true.

So many irrelevant demands. Unless you're expecting that they will double the effectiveness of their shooting, which is just delusional.

SilverAlien proved that Interceptors are anywhere around 150% to 250% the shooting capability of Rubrics. They also better in melee too.

Current banner can potentially deal more wounds. We could see the same for the new one.

Tzeentch rules might give the rerolling 1s on saves like on Tzeentch Daemons.

Hardly irrelevant when the rules in question have potential to impact the durability and offensive power of the unit.

And people seem to have found Rubrics BETTER in melee, not worse.

Also, those Inceptors still have to make a charge that statistically they aren't likely to make to even get stuck in turn one and attack first...

Just going to point out we have 0 clue as to what the Icon of Flame does.

For all we know it could case To Hit rolls of a 6 to cause Mortal Wounds or something like that.

Tyran wrote:
The fact that the comparison is based around power and not points already was a red flag that it was a waste of time.

This. I didn't even bother posting after reading the OP because any player who uses the power ratings as a reference for game balance obviously has no idea how the game works and isn't worth the time.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Just going to point out we have 0 clue as to what the Icon of Flame does.

For all we know it could case To Hit rolls of a 6 to cause Mortal Wounds or something like that.

Or does more wounds. Or gives Inferno Weapons +1S. Or does d6 additional wounds to a unit for each unsaved wound they had this turn. Or...

It can do a lot of things, and yet I've been told that a wargear option that could change the way the numbers crunch is irrelevant,

Seems silly to me...

I'll do some maths myself.

T3, 5+, 0-12"
4 Wounds from Rubrics
6.67 Wounds from Inceptors

T3, 5+, 12-18"
1.78 Wounds from Rubrics
6.67 Wounds from inceptors

T3, 5+, 18-24"
1.78 Wounds from Rubrics
0 Wounds from Inceptors

Inceptors do more than 50% more damage in rapid fire range, and more than triple past that.

T4, 3+, 0-12"
2 Wounds from Rubrics
4 Wounds from Inceptors

T4, 3+, 12-18"
.89 Wounds from Rubrics
4 Wounds from Inceptors

T4, 3+, 18-24"
.89 Wounds from Rubrics
0 Wounds from Inceptors

Inceptors do double damage in rapid fire, and over quadruple outside it.

T7, 3+, 0-12"
1.33 Wounds from Rubrics
2 Wounds from Inceptors

T7, 3+, 12-18"
.59 Wounds from Rubrics
2 Wounds from Inceptors

T7, 3+, 18-24"
.59 Wounds from Rubrics
0 Wounds from Inceptors

Not quite twice as good at rapid fire range, but nearly four times as good past it.

T8, 3+, 0-12"
.67 Wounds from Rubrics
2 Wounds from Inceptors

T8, 3+, 12-18"
.30 Wounds from Rubrics
2 Wounds from Inceptors

T8, 3+, 18-24"
.30 Wounds from Rubrics
0 Wounds from Inceptors

Inceptors are, once again, three times as good at rapid fire range, nearly SEVEN TIMES as good outside that...

Rubrics ARE better in the 18-24" range, but with Inceptors greater movement, that's AT BEST a wash.

Edit: Again, the Icon of Flame is going to have to literally double their effectiveness for it to make them compare. And it's vulnerable to being sniped out, potentially, if Snipers get a rule like that.

See? That's a better comparison at least.

What about flamers vs Interceptors in short range? We all know Interceptors will rock them over 8" but since 16.5" threat range of Rubrics with Inferno Flamers is a thing (5" move + 3.5" avg advance + 8" flamer) means they can at least be a useful threat with 3.5 autohits from 4 models...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the only thing we,ve heard about snipers was them being able to ignore the "can't target charcters" set of targetting rules. We don't know if they can allocate hits and wounds.

14 hits, 4.67 wounds, 3.11 past the saves.

Then 12 shots, 8 hits, 5.33 wounds, 1.78 past the saves. But the Inceptors can simply move away, and while they might sacrifice a little shooting power, they can perpetually kite the Rubrics with the two remaining Inceptors.

Edit: So what do you THINK it'll do? Because again-it will have to literally at least DOUBLE their effectiveness to bring them on par with Inceptor SHOOTING. That's not even touching mobility.

I meant comparing the flamers vs the Interceptor shooting against a range of targets in short range, like you did with the bolter.

And 10" move isn't enough to kite a 16.5" avg threat radius of a flamer unit. So Inteceptors advancing to increase the distance and decreasing their BS to kite?

18" away to start. Rubrics move up 8.5"... Meaning they can't even touch them unless the Inceptors mess up.

Let's assume 10". Rubrics move up 8.5", leaving them 1.5" away.

Inceptors kill the closest model, adding an extra 1"-2.5". Then move 13.5"-putting them 16" away, or outside the MINIMUM threat range.

The issue is, Inceptors aren't going to BE that close in the first place, barring outside circumstances. Which is all fine and dandy, there are other parts to the army, but that applies equally to both sides.

 JNAProductions wrote:
18" away to start. Rubrics move up 8.5"... Meaning they can't even touch them unless the Inceptors mess up.

Let's assume 10". Rubrics move up 8.5", leaving them 1.5" away.

Inceptors kill the closest model, adding an extra 1"-2.5". Then move 13.5"-putting them 16" away, or outside the MINIMUM threat range.

The issue is, Inceptors aren't going to BE that close in the first place, barring outside circumstances. Which is all fine and dandy, there are other parts to the army, but that applies equally to both sides.

You said close enough to lose a model to the flamers. That means you were within 8" to start. That means the other two can,t move far enoug away to kite anything.

Now if you,re kiting from the start that,s different, but is not in context with the original scenario where you were close enough to lose a guy in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also why would Inceptors kill the closest model? Defender allocates wounds. He can pull from back.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Tyran wrote:
The fact that the comparison is based around power and not points already was a red flag that it was a waste of time.

This. I didn't even bother posting after reading the OP because any player who uses the power ratings as a reference for game balance obviously has no idea how the game works and isn't worth the time.

he only further confirmed he's looking for something to complain about when I noted the Lascannon predator would proably have a similer points cost and be more then capable of effortlessly killing the inceptors, and he started some ran t about how "what if I don't wanna take any tanks cause I'm an air cav and besides, how is needing to take a unit to deal with something giving me freedom is list building?"" or some such rubbish.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Just going to point out we have 0 clue as to what the Icon of Flame does.

For all we know it could case To Hit rolls of a 6 to cause Mortal Wounds or something like that.

Or does more wounds. Or gives Inferno Weapons +1S. Or does d6 additional wounds to a unit for each unsaved wound they had this turn. Or...

It can do a lot of things, and yet I've been told that a wargear option that could change the way the numbers crunch is irrelevant,

Seems silly to me...

None of what you mentioned would put the rubrics even on par with inceptors, barring the ability to multiply the number of wounds the unit deals by d6 which is so absurd I refuse to entertain it.

If it turned every wound by an inferno weapon into a mortal wound, it'd almost be good enough to give rubrics equal firepower in rapid fire range. Not quite as good, but almost. +1 str wouldn't be enough either, +2 might shift the balance in a couple matchups but again not that much.

Now, the one rule I continue to mention could potentially change this is something that lets the sorcerer cast smite without worrying about destroying his own unit. That brings them up into a more level playing field with inceptors and generally above plague marines. So cross your fingers tsons can mitigate perils.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Tyran wrote:
The fact that the comparison is based around power and not points already was a red flag that it was a waste of time.

This. I didn't even bother posting after reading the OP because any player who uses the power ratings as a reference for game balance obviously has no idea how the game works and isn't worth the time.

Considering my comparison showed them being outshot by both lower and the same power units, I'd say it likely indicates something. It may indicate power isn't just a vague measure but a generally useless one, or that rubrics are over priced, or that their is a rule that makes the sorcerer more than dead weight/a melee deterrent.

We can actually learn quite a bit if people would stop and think.

ERJAK wrote:

Guess it is inceptors, despite what a waste that is. Second Rubricae will be getting a 2+ save against anyone that chooses to drop interceptors in, that is objective and true. (Cover+rubric abilities)

Sure and outside of 12" Inceptors do 3x the damage to Rubric marines.

ERJAK wrote:
Inceptors will get AT BEST a 4+ save against rubrics, that is objective and true.

See above

ERJAK wrote:
An entire unit of inrceptors will get crumped by just the aspiring sorceror in CQC that is objective and true (2+ save against interceptors)

No he would probably die in the first round. They would kill him with a mortal wound on the charge or strike first and weight of fire him to death.

ERJAK wrote:
Inceptors can't shoot once in CQC, Rubrics CAN and with very good pistols, this is objective and true.

Rubrics dont have pistols only the sorcerer.

ERJAK wrote:
Increasing squad size to the next higher point will benefit rubricae VASTLY more than it will inceptors. This is objective and true.

No it dosent ive already gone over this it only makes the TS more vulnerable to loseing guys to morale. You would lose 5 guys to shooting and 1 to the charge on average. Plus another 1 to CC 7 means a 3 leaves you with one guy.

ERJAK wrote:
Dropping in inceptors give them a 5/18 chance to make their initial charge which if they fail means they get wiped off the board by the rubricae next turn as they stand useless with their wangs in their hands, this is objective and true.

How are they going to get wiped out? What? You going to shoot them? Oh noes .4 wounds lost. You lose 2-3 if your in the open or 1-2 if your not when they DS if you charge them your probably going to lose 1 to overwatch. So your losing 2-4 before you get into combat. And if you fail the charge your dead.

 JNAProductions wrote:
14 hits, 4.67 wounds, 3.11 past the saves.

Then 12 shots, 8 hits, 5.33 wounds, 1.78 past the saves. But the Inceptors can simply move away, and while they might sacrifice a little shooting power, they can perpetually kite the Rubrics with the two remaining Inceptors.

Edit: So what do you THINK it'll do? Because again-it will have to literally at least DOUBLE their effectiveness to bring them on par with Inceptor SHOOTING. That's not even touching mobility.

Ignoring the fact that rubrics will likely grind out inceptors in an attrition shooting war due to their defenses being better suited to inceptor damage than inceptor defenses are to rubric damage and that rubrics are much better in melee.

I think taking the Sorceror out of the equation in terms of damage output is unfair to the Rubrics. Part of the reason they're likely rated as high as they are is their access to psychic powers. Smite alone is a handy and fairly reliable way to dish out mortal wounds (just don't roll double sixes and kill your unit).

Who knows what other powers they may have access to.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Guess it is inceptors, despite what a waste that is. Second Rubricae will be getting a 2+ save against anyone that chooses to drop interceptors in, that is objective and true. (Cover+rubric abilities)

Sure and outside of 12" Inceptors do 3x the damage to Rubric marines.

ERJAK wrote:
Inceptors will get AT BEST a 4+ save against rubrics, that is objective and true.

See above

ERJAK wrote:
An entire unit of inrceptors will get crumped by just the aspiring sorceror in CQC that is objective and true (2+ save against interceptors)

No he would probably die in the first round. They would kill him with a mortal wound on the charge or strike first and weight of fire him to death.

ERJAK wrote:
Inceptors can't shoot once in CQC, Rubrics CAN and with very good pistols, this is objective and true.

Rubrics dont have pistols only the sorcerer.

ERJAK wrote:
Increasing squad size to the next higher point will benefit rubricae VASTLY more than it will inceptors. This is objective and true.

No it dosent ive already gone over this it only makes the TS more vulnerable to loseing guys to morale. You would lose 5 guys to shooting and 1 to the charge on average. Plus another 1 to CC 7 means a 3 leaves you with one guy.

ERJAK wrote:
Dropping in inceptors give them a 5/18 chance to make their initial charge which if they fail means they get wiped off the board by the rubricae next turn as they stand useless with their wangs in their hands, this is objective and true.

How are they going to get wiped out? What? You going to shoot them? Oh noes .4 wounds lost. You lose 2-3 if your in the open or 1-2 if your not when they DS if you charge them your probably going to lose 1 to overwatch. So your losing 2-4 before you get into combat. And if you fail the charge your dead.

Fine, if you want to cherry pick best case scenarios the inceptors land kill 1 guy the rubrics kill 2 between 3 mortal wounds in the psychic phase and 1 bolter wound. The last guy fails to do anything and the sorc pips him with 2 more mortal wounds.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I believe you can do everything normally after disembarking, so yes.

Disembarked models may act as normal after disembarking. Granted they say "move" in the example list of things you can do, but I assume they mean "advance" and not "move as normal" as that would be effectivley an 8" move out of the transport...

Does doubling your movemet on average seem reasonable? It doesnt to me im willing to bet that disembarking will disallow advancing in the same turn.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I think taking the Sorceror out of the equation in terms of damage output is unfair to the Rubrics. Part of the reason they're likely rated as high as they are is their access to psychic powers. Smite alone is a handy and fairly reliable way to dish out mortal wounds (just don't roll double sixes and kill your unit).

Who knows what other powers they may have access to.

Given that the data sheet is said to tell you, rubrics have access to lesser smite, and that's it.

As for why it isn't being included, while it brings damage closer inline (not actually equal but closer) you lose half your rubrics+sorcerer on a double 1 or 6. 1/18 chance to basically kill off your own unit. Which equates to an average of .166 mortal wounds inflicted on your own squad, vs .888 average mortal wounds on the enemy. That's a net gain, but a really risky one.

So if that's a big part of the power, tsons must have more reliable psykers than the default.

ERJAK wrote:
Fine, if you want to cherry pick best case scenarios the inceptors land kill 1 guy the rubrics kill 2 between 3 mortal wounds in the psychic phase and 1 bolter wound. The last guy fails to do anything and the sorc pips him with 2 more mortal wounds.

LMAO 3 mortal wounds. LMAO and that has a 16% chance of happening. Its not worst case senario, im taking the averages how the dice would roll on average. LOL so bad.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I believe you can do everything normally after disembarking, so yes.

Disembarked models may act as normal after disembarking. Granted they say "move" in the example list of things you can do, but I assume they mean "advance" and not "move as normal" as that would be effectivley an 8" move out of the transport...

Does doubling your movemet on average seem reasonable? It doesnt to me im willing to bet that disembarking will disallow advancing in the same turn.

They specifically say you can move in the rules.