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This is something I haven't seen discussed yet, but the new ultima founding article made it pretty clear both chapters have official primaris successor chapters. It may be a temporary thing, they have stressed it's unknown how the genetic mutations of some will play out, but I was surprised. It seemed like a big part of both chapter's history was being isolated and viewed suspiciously by the wider imperium, having successors changes that dynamic.

So what, if anything do people think about this?

I don't make too much of it at this point; if they want to, they can say that the Space Wolf gene seed still has its unique characteristics and the Primaris marines are assimilated into the culture and structure of the chapter.

Primaris marine wolfen?

The last time the Space wolf gene-seed was diluted and made into a successor chapter things did not go well... perhaps with the Primaris they managed to stabilize the genetic code that made the last attempts deteriorate into non-viable wulfen and the like.

The canix helix can work with non fenrisian humans but you have to be really picky you can't just grab any population and expect to convert them.

The plus side is you don't have to recruit kids to make space wolves you can elivate adults with something like a 60% success rate.

hobojebus wrote:
The canix helix can work with non fenrisian humans but you have to be really picky you can't just grab any population and expect to convert them.

The plus side is you don't have to recruit kids to make space wolves you can elivate adults with something like a 60% success rate.

True, plus it sounds like the gene seed for Primaris is much more adaptable than for regular Astartes, who can incidentally be converted into Primaris (and somehow grow a full 2 feet taller)

Also how is there enough SW geneseed to create successor chapters? Last time I checked their system was all but destroyed and their legion was in disrepair, can the SW really spare any of what is left of their geneseed?

Sw will have stocks on Mars.

Given they been tithing a fraction for 10k years, that could be fairly substantial suplies of gene seed to create new primus forces for them and rebuild there forces.

It is worth noting that in the preview of the new chapters, salamander and space wolf successors were noticeably absent from the image.

 jhe90 wrote:
Sw will have stocks on Mars.

Given they been tithing a fraction for 10k years, that could be fairly substantial suplies of gene seed to create new primus forces for them and rebuild there forces.

Didn't the SW have arguments with the inquisition over geneseed tithes or was it something else?

hobojebus wrote:
The canix helix can work with non fenrisian humans but you have to be really picky you can't just grab any population and expect to convert them.

The plus side is you don't have to recruit kids to make space wolves you can elivate adults with something like a 60% success rate.

using adults for the space wolves treatment though leads to stability issues later on, they have a MUCH higher rate of "wulfenism" apparently

Space wolves have no successor chapters because of the Canis Helix, unless they somehow magically fixed the problem of them turning into wolves.

Salamander successors are a thing and there are a few of them.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Also how is there enough SW geneseed to create successor chapters? Last time I checked their system was all but destroyed and their legion was in disrepair, can the SW really spare any of what is left of their geneseed?

It really depends on how big the Space Wolves were before Magnus attacked this last time. Personally I've always been on the side that the Space Wolves were massive, each Great Company at least half the size of a normal chapter. If that was the case, they would still have a large force. After they beat Magnus, they immediately headed off to Cadia to fight there, if the Space Wolves were as bad off as most people think, I would imagine they would stick around Fenris and do their best to rebuild and shore up their system.

SW genestock on mars should do the trick, and even with the invasion of Fenris they're nowher near as best up as the BA or comparable staple chapters at this point.

Ravingbantha wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Also how is there enough SW geneseed to create successor chapters? Last time I checked their system was all but destroyed and their legion was in disrepair, can the SW really spare any of what is left of their geneseed?

It really depends on how big the Space Wolves were before Magnus attacked this last time. Personally I've always been on the side that the Space Wolves were massive, each Great Company at least half the size of a normal chapter. If that was the case, they would still have a large force. After they beat Magnus, they immediately headed off to Cadia to fight there, if the Space Wolves were as bad off as most people think, I would imagine they would stick around Fenris and do their best to rebuild and shore up their system.

the problem is they detailed ragnar blackmane's company which was described as the second biggest as being around around 150 or so Marines. the matter has been discussed a fair bit but generally a high end estimate for the space wolves size was about 2000 strong

 Asherian Command wrote:
Space wolves have no successor chapters because of the Canis Helix, unless they somehow magically fixed the problem of them turning into wolves.

Salamander successors are a thing and there are a few of them.

Cawl did, you can read about it in the article from today. Specifically mentions all nine loyal chapters. Cawl is apparently to science/the mechanicusas Kaldor Draigo is to killing demons/the grey knights.

Didn't know that about salamanders, I had thought they were the other no successor chapter.

Cawls also been working on the issue for ten thousand years,

was the emperor's lab destroyed in deliveriance lost? if not then it's possiable he had access to that

Interesting blurb about cawl.... seems a little too convenient fluff-wise for me but it could make for an interesting force on the tabletop; I may have to try fielding some form of primaris with my wolves.

Ravingbantha wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Also how is there enough SW geneseed to create successor chapters? Last time I checked their system was all but destroyed and their legion was in disrepair, can the SW really spare any of what is left of their geneseed?

It really depends on how big the Space Wolves were before Magnus attacked this last time. Personally I've always been on the side that the Space Wolves were massive, each Great Company at least half the size of a normal chapter. If that was the case, they would still have a large force. After they beat Magnus, they immediately headed off to Cadia to fight there, if the Space Wolves were as bad off as most people think, I would imagine they would stick around Fenris and do their best to rebuild and shore up their system.

It's possible that the reason Fenris gets a free pass on so many moments that would get other chapters excommunicated or worse is because the Space Wolves play hero first and put themselves second - they have a good reputation on planets with information - consider a parallel, if Australia decided to remove New Zealand without a damn good reason a lot of countries wouldn't really know or care but all the allies that Australia shares with New Zealand would either cut ties with Australia as untrustworthy or do to Australia the same as Australia did to New Zealand.

Grimnar makes oddball decisions - maybe he decided playing hero on Cadia would limit the damage the Grey Knights would inflict on Fenris, admittedly that's giving a lot more credit to the Grey Knights than they've ever deserved but I've never considered Grimnar to be a 'smart' person. He has impressive military cunning but he also makes some awful decisions that extend outside the battle.

If you want an example of what a Primaris Wulfen might be like look up Bran Redmaw the Curs'd Lord and imagine something sitting statistically between him and a 'normal' Wulfen.

Love the redmaw profile from forgeworld... can picture it now. Time will tell if primaris will become tailored to chapters like the SW

Fenris could stand up to the high Lords because that entire sub sector is loyal to them unlike some chapters they constantly patrol all those star systems and reply to calls for aid quickly.

To those people the wolves have their first loyalty not the IOM.

The imperium would win but not without massive cost to forces needed elsewhere.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Space wolves have no successor chapters because of the Canis Helix, unless they somehow magically fixed the problem of them turning into wolves.

Salamander successors are a thing and there are a few of them.

Cawl did, you can read about it in the article from today. Specifically mentions all nine loyal chapters. Cawl is apparently to science/the mechanicusas Kaldor Draigo is to killing demons/the grey knights.

Didn't know that about salamanders, I had thought they were the other no successor chapter.

Salamanders have two suspected successors (Black Dragons and Storm Giants) - neither confirmed - and one Chaos 'successor' (Dragon Warriors). That's all the known canon 'successors'.

hobojebus wrote:
Fenris could stand up to the high Lords because that entire sub sector is loyal to them unlike some chapters they constantly patrol all those star systems and reply to calls for aid quickly.

To those people the wolves have their first loyalty not the IOM.

The imperium would win but not without massive cost to forces needed elsewhere.

Hopefully that issue will never need to be resolved... the emperor's executioner will remain loyal I pray

BrianDavion wrote:

Ravingbantha wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Also how is there enough SW geneseed to create successor chapters? Last time I checked their system was all but destroyed and their legion was in disrepair, can the SW really spare any of what is left of their geneseed?

It really depends on how big the Space Wolves were before Magnus attacked this last time. Personally I've always been on the side that the Space Wolves were massive, each Great Company at least half the size of a normal chapter. If that was the case, they would still have a large force. After they beat Magnus, they immediately headed off to Cadia to fight there, if the Space Wolves were as bad off as most people think, I would imagine they would stick around Fenris and do their best to rebuild and shore up their system.

the problem is they detailed ragnar blackmane's company which was described as the second biggest as being around around 150 or so Marines. the matter has been discussed a fair bit but generally a high end estimate for the space wolves size was about 2000 strong

The list in the codex puts his for around 180 marines, this is the force he commanded during the battle of Alaric Prime. However I;m pretty sure that the Sanctus Reach books say that Ragnar only took a part of his Great Company, so that could mean anything. Personally I took it to mean 'less than half', perhaps a third of a fourth of his company. There's a lot of contradicting information about the Space Wolves and their chapter size. But there's no need to rehash this topic, over and over. The fact is, whatever casualties the Space Wolves suffered at the hands of Magnus, they still had enough to continue manning he Fang as well as muster a strong enough force to try and defend Cadia, which from the sound of things, they still made a good showing there too.

Ravingbantha wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Ravingbantha wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Also how is there enough SW geneseed to create successor chapters? Last time I checked their system was all but destroyed and their legion was in disrepair, can the SW really spare any of what is left of their geneseed?

It really depends on how big the Space Wolves were before Magnus attacked this last time. Personally I've always been on the side that the Space Wolves were massive, each Great Company at least half the size of a normal chapter. If that was the case, they would still have a large force. After they beat Magnus, they immediately headed off to Cadia to fight there, if the Space Wolves were as bad off as most people think, I would imagine they would stick around Fenris and do their best to rebuild and shore up their system.

the problem is they detailed ragnar blackmane's company which was described as the second biggest as being around around 150 or so Marines. the matter has been discussed a fair bit but generally a high end estimate for the space wolves size was about 2000 strong

The list in the codex puts his for around 180 marines, this is the force he commanded during the battle of Alaric Prime. However I;m pretty sure that the Sanctus Reach books say that Ragnar only took a part of his Great Company, so that could mean anything. Personally I took it to mean 'less than half', perhaps a third of a fourth of his company. There's a lot of contradicting information about the Space Wolves and their chapter size. But there's no need to rehash this topic, over and over. The fact is, whatever casualties the Space Wolves suffered at the hands of Magnus, they still had enough to continue manning he Fang as well as muster a strong enough force to try and defend Cadia, which from the sound of things, they still made a good showing there too.

Twelve companies averaging about 100 marines I'd guess at about 1200 marines.
They picked up about four fifths of the missing Thirteenth Great Company of wild recruits from around the galaxy that make the Blood Claws appear tame, they did take casualties during the effort. Buff them up to about 2000 even though calling Wulfen Marines is stretching figures.
They took a massive beating on Fenris.
I'd put the Wolves universe wide numbers at just over 1000 when they arrived on Cadia.
Closer to 600, maybe less, after losing the Firehowlers Great Company in a meaningless suicide mission and the Ironwolves Great Company in direct warfare, as well as Ragnar losing around ten that we know of from his little bookie.
Add in general casualties from such a massive firefight I'd probably put them in the 400-500 numbers and their only planet for recruitment is in the hands of the Grey Knights.

They be hurting.

SilverAlien wrote:

Didn't know that about salamanders, I had thought they were the other no successor chapter.

They had no 2nd Founding successors, as their numbers were too depleted at that time. I don't think there's ever been anything said about them not having successors later on.

 insaniak wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

Didn't know that about salamanders, I had thought they were the other no successor chapter.

They had no 2nd Founding successors, as their numbers were too depleted at that time. I don't think there's ever been anything said about them not having successors later on.

Which is still weird to me given that the raven guard (and iron hands of we wanna talk istavaan in general) managed to have three confirmed 2nd founding chapters each at least.

I know the salamanders got messed up, but it never made sense for them to be that depleted.

The wolves are too loyal to have a war with the IOM, and the IOM isn't foolish enough to turn on the wolves (even willing to accept the wulfen). If the SW were to get burned from the IOM it would have been when everyone figured out their flaw. I mean SW basicly utilize Chaos and used to defend the IOM against other Chaos. None of this will matter once Russ shows up and punches Papa Smurf square in the jaw and saves the IOM and SW from everything by presenting and selling, at a reasonable price of course, his Chaos brew he has been working on for however many thousands of years.

When exactly do SW use Chaos...

I mean, not really but wulfen are pretty bad as far as imperium standards.