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The only issue with killpoint missions is the loss of the option to blob. But then we are just going to have to use tactics now aren't we?

But, hey, that is the risk we guard players take.

As far as the single-model character units: every army has those now; and we have some options to keep them alive(command squads with medi-packs and nork)

What really sucks now is wyrdvanes and astropaths:
The astropath can only manifest smite 1/6th of the time(only rolls 1 die when attempting smite) but cannot perils. The wyrdvane only ever roll 1 die to cast or deny, and get to a dd 1 or 2 to the roll depending on how many models are left. This means a bigger unit is only casting 3/4 of the available powers half the time, and a smaller unit 1/3. If you got visions and your unit goes below 3 models you can never cast it. Most of the time they cannot deny either. Strangely enough the unit has rule for how you handle perils, but unless something else is going to cause perils the unit will never be able to roll them(can't roll double 1 or 6 if you are only rolling 1d6)

Isen't the Astropath stupidly cheap though? And can we also only deny with 1d6? I might be wrong but I read it as he manifsted with 1d6 bout could actually deny with 2d6

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The only issue with killpoint missions is the loss of the option to blob. But then we are just going to have to use tactics now aren't we?

But, hey, that is the risk we guard players take.

As far as the single-model character units: every army has those now; and we have some options to keep them alive(command squads with medi-packs and nork)

What really sucks now is wyrdvanes and astropaths:
The astropath can only manifest smite 1/6th of the time(only rolls 1 die when attempting smite) but cannot perils. The wyrdvane only ever roll 1 die to cast or deny, and get to a dd 1 or 2 to the roll depending on how many models are left. This means a bigger unit is only casting 3/4 of the available powers half the time, and a smaller unit 1/3. If you got visions and your unit goes below 3 models you can never cast it. Most of the time they cannot deny either. Strangely enough the unit has rule for how you handle perils, but unless something else is going to cause perils the unit will never be able to roll them(can't roll double 1 or 6 if you are only rolling 1d6)

Blob was a tactic.

Yes Astropaths are only 21 points (and can do a ignores cover thing too, though that's less good now), also Mortar HWS are only 27 points which is a laugh.

Well the Astropath only needs a 5+ to smite, which isn't that bad for the cost. A full wyrdvane squad needs 3+ to cast. You should probably not pick terrifying visions as a power, and stick to one of the other 2. 4+ isn't great but it's something I suppose. I would probably just stick to the Primaris.

What I'm curious about is how much <Regiment> is going to play a part in determining things like Detachments. In the case of stuff like Traitor Legions and Chapters I imagine it would be pretty important to make sure everything is marked as say... <Death Guard> but compared to them we have a lot of stuff that doesn't fall under <Regiment>. Storm Troopers, Commissars, Valkyries, Priests, Advisors, all our Psykers, etc. Could be that it's an intentional off-set to how easily we fill a Detachment compared to everybody else, but...

Well, in a pinch, if you need to avoid having non-regiment stuff in a detachment, you can take a separate Elites detachment with just one command squad that has all your Commissars and such in it.

AdMech has to do a similar thing if they want to bring Imperium allies but still use Canticles (their version of Orders), because AdMech can only use canticles if their detachment is 100% pure AdMech. So if they want to bring an assassin or something like that, they bring a second detachment to stick it in so it won't contaminate their primary.

 Shadelkan wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I just realized all arc of sight is gone.

All vehicle weapons can now fire through the rear corner, for example.

Yes but vehicle rotation (aside from flyers) is infinite, so why wouldnt you turn your vehicle to shoot at your target and look cool in the process.

Depends when. During movement? Fine. During shooting? No. Why?

'cause that way you gain in-game benefit by moving in a turn more than you should have? I would call shenigans on that in tournament.

Say tank is like this:

XXX

Pointing left. You then keep moving sideways full ahead. If you then on shooting phase rotate it toward enemy your front is actually closer to enemy than it was...

Also of course there's all sort of micromanagement bonus shenigans you can do by exposing only corner or something...Expect to see that in a tournaments a lot.

How am I going to keep track of how many wounds my tanks have?

I'm probably going to have to re-mark them so I can prep up a tracker sheet and know which tank corresponds to which tank on the tracker sheet.

I should re-mark them anyway, since their markings aren't really correct.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
How am I going to keep track of how many wounds my tanks have?

I'm probably going to have to re-mark them so I can prep up a tracker sheet and know which tank corresponds to which tank on the tracker sheet.

I would put a dice on top of them, increasing the number for every wound you take. That would be 2 dice max. Also, if you have 2 dice on it then you know a russ is below half wounds and has lower stats.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
How am I going to keep track of how many wounds my tanks have?

I'm probably going to have to re-mark them so I can prep up a tracker sheet and know which tank corresponds to which tank on the tracker sheet.

I would put a dice on top of them, increasing the number for every wound you take. That would be 2 dice max. Also, if you have 2 dice on it then you know a russ is below half wounds and has lower stats.

That's what we do now for Hull Points. But there's no convenient place to put dice on the Leman Russ because it's not big and flat, and more than once after a turn or two I've stopped, looked at it, and gone "now how many HP did this tank have remaining?"

I usually just use the tracks, wide enough for dice and flat. Have to be careful about knocking it, but you could say that about any model in the game.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
How am I going to keep track of how many wounds my tanks have?

D12 and bluetack

 master of ordinance wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well, I am very disappointed with GW. Our tanks have been over nerfed yet again, our Veterans are now a useless and expensive Elites choice and our HWT cannot give any covering fire.
GG GW, well played. You actually had me excited there for a second.

And you've got a detachment entirely dedicated to elites (plus I see vets to be quite decent choices still) so that doesn't matter. And you can rack command points to boost tanks effectively quite a bit too. But yep, doom and gloom it is (plus don't lie, you've been like that since day one).

Since Day 6 actually, when our 6th edition codex was released and pretty much nerfed our entire army, but yes I suppose that is exactly the same as Day 1.

My point is veterans should be Troops not Elites. Right now (and assuming that some other Elites units have been buffed) they have been thrust into an already well populated (although underpowered) section of the list, whereas our troops choices have now been reduced to a single choice: The platoon. We used to have Penal Troopers in here, and Veterans which together gave us three choices. We lost Penal Troopers and now Veterans have been moved to Elites for no good reason other than "GW thought it was a good idea".

Uhhh... I got some bad news about the platoon buddy...

On the other hand, stormtroopers are troops now, and conscript squads can be taken individually, that's a thing.

.

Waitwaitwait, so your are telling me that a Guardsman whom has been in three or more battles somehow merits a radical rise from a grunt to some kind of elite unit, but the Storm troopers, the elite shock troops of the Scholar Commissariat, the literal Commando's of the 40K universe whom are specially trained and equipped with above-standard grade equipment and are pretty much the definition of elite infantry are only Troops?
How does that make any sense?

The Platoon has gone has it? Waht about Heavy weapon Squads, Special Weapon Squads and Platoon Command Squads?

1. Yeah I don't get it either honestly. Our 3 troops choices are Conscripts (literally unchanged from last codex) Single Infantry squads, and Stormtroopers. I'm 100% this was just the most convenient way to roll the stormtrooper codex into the Index for GW, I highly doubt stormtroopers are staying troops for IG once we get our "real" codex. In the meantime we can abuse the heck out of them though, especially as a 10 man squad gets to bring 4 special weapons. If you ran grenadier vets, just proxy them as stormtroopers for the time being, as long as you didn't use heavy weapons they'll fulfill the same role for not much more points. Hopefully when the main codex drops this will be fixed, but we'll see.

2. The platoon is gone in that it is no longer a single troops choice that is a force org within a force org. All of our platoon options that we know and love are available in the index, they're just spread across the sections one would expect to see them. There were price drops across the board (except for conscripts which honestly don't need it)

Platoon commanders, command squads, and Special weapon squads are in the elite section

Infantry squads and Conscripts are troops choices

Heavy weapon squads are in the heavy support section.


What GW was going for from the look of it is that IG is expected to use the various formations to build our platoons again. Essentially nothing has changed at first glance. If anything, IG is basically being swamped in command points, your average platoon that you took in 7th is going to net you just as many command points as most people's armies in 8th will, and it's looking like hitting 20+ command dice for IG is going to be hilariously easy.

HOWEVER, we lost the combined squads rule, which is a huge blow. It's now making a lot more sense why our orders go off automatically and we get so many officers, because we're going to desperately need them. Infantry squads will always be deployed individually now, there is no option to combine them. This means that IG is going to be hell in killpoint missions, and all but the most elite of mech guard forces are going to be taking turn 2 most of the time.

There's also the problem that more than likely matched play will limit formations, which if we're going to be honest here, most metas will likely do. This means that infantry guard is facing a very real risk of not having enough slots (even with brigades) to deploy their army. If this happens, infantry squads will be dead in the water, and odds are you'll see most players default to conscripts and stormtroopers, or running the elite formation for a core of veteran squads. I know people are already saying "well how the heck are you going to run out of formations with guard?" but when many of our best choices in each slot cost 30-40pts KITTED OUT, slots will be at a premium, especially if you try to take allies which will eat up an entire formation.

Now I could be fretting over nothing, maybe we won't see a formation limit and it'll be fine, but mark my words, if the meta trends toward a limit on formations or Command points, IG will be hit the hardest because of it. It's pretty clear right now that being able to take advantage of that system is one of our most important strengths going into 8th edition.

@ MrMoustafa...

Good post, mirrored my thinking pretty closely. I wonder how few points a guard double-Brigade could run.



Too bad about the Vendetta going away. But it's overshadowed the Valkyrie and been hated by opponents literally since day 1. Not really surprised.

Some of you are mentioning Astropaths, which I can't find on the in-house Guard lists at all. Ditto Wyrdvanes or whatever they're called this edition. Do we not have psyker access at all anymore without allying out? Could be I just missed it?

Heavy Stubbers seem like a steal at 4 points. Vehicles split fire now too, right? If so at 4 points I'm not sure I wouldn't put them on virtually everything.

Voxes don't take up a special weapon position anymore in grunt squads... but sadly still do in Command Squads.

Massed storm trooper plasma drop feels like it will be really nasty.

Do Command Point rerolls include misc chart rolls and such (Deathstrike launches perhaps)? Or just attack rolls, to-wound rolls, and armor saves?

Edit: Also, are other factions going to have protective rules for their characters? Because Ratling snipers seem absurdly good when fielded in large numbers. I suspect our own characters are going to be hideously vulnerable to massed sniper fire too (unless hiding in a Chimera or such). Hmm. Can orders even still be issued from a Chimera in 8th? I'm not seeing anything similar to the Command Vehicle rule.

Ivan wrote:
Too bad about the Vendetta going away. But it's overshadowed the Valkyrie and been hated by opponents literally since day 1. Not really surprised.

It'll probably be in the FW rule collection available later this month.

Ivan wrote:
Some of you are mentioning Astropaths, which I can't find on the in-house Guard lists at all. Ditto Wyrdvanes or whatever they're called this edition. Do we not have psyker access at all anymore without allying out? Could be I just missed it?

They are in the Adeptus Astra Telepathica list near the end of the book. It isn't really allying, as they have the Astra Militarum faction keyword. You can also get priests and enginseers from other lists because of keywords.

Ivan wrote:
Heavy Stubbers seem like a steal at 4 points. Vehicles split fire now too, right? If so at 4 points I'm not sure I wouldn't put them on virtually everything.

They are decent if you don't plan to move the vehicle: they get -1 to hit when moving as they are heavy weapons. If you plan to move then the stormbolter is really nice, rapid fire 2 and only 2 points.

Ivan wrote:
Do Command Point rerolls include misc chart rolls and such (Deathstrike launches perhaps)? Or just attack rolls, to-wound rolls, and armor saves?

I think they can reroll any single dice in the game once a phase. It is pretty nice for really important things, such as a shadowsword's shot number or a critical charge range. You can even use them on the seize the initiative roll.

Ivan wrote:
Edit: Also, are other factions going to have protective rules for their characters? Because Ratling snipers seem absurdly good when fielded in large numbers. I suspect our own characters are going to be hideously vulnerable to massed sniper fire too (unless hiding in a Chimera or such).

I haven't checked but I know that we have two, Nork and Kell can both take wounds for a character near them.

Ivan wrote:
Hmm. Can orders even still be issued from a Chimera in 8th? I'm not seeing anything similar to the Command Vehicle rule.

Units inside transports cannot do anything unless specifically given rules saying they can. So no orders or auras. Pretty much the only thing they can do is use firepoints.

Hey guys anyone else notice the hell hammer gets a lasgun in it's profile?

Is there something I'm missing here?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Hey guys anyone else notice the hell hammer gets a lasgun in it's profile?

Is there something I'm missing here?

Yeah it is really weird. No reason it should be there at all, not on model or ever mentioned previously. Maybe we should model the tank commander holding one? (-:

That actually made me think that tank commander's fighting totally makes sense now. You could have a pistol weapon for the tank, and have a powersword with a rule like "gets 2 attacks in addition to track attacks".

 Trickstick wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Hey guys anyone else notice the hell hammer gets a lasgun in it's profile?

Is there something I'm missing here?

Yeah it is really weird. No reason it should be there at all, not on model or ever mentioned previously. Maybe we should model the tank commander holding one? (-:

That actually made me think that tank commander's fighting totally makes sense now. You could have a pistol weapon for the tank, and have a powersword with a rule like "gets 2 attacks in addition to track attacks".

If GW is listening, it better be called "Drive me closer"

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Hey guys anyone else notice the hell hammer gets a lasgun in it's profile?

Is there something I'm missing here?

Nope, take a took at the back of the turret. If you leave the bustle off there is a little ball mounted lasgun that can be fitted instead, kind of like the machine gun in a KV-1's turret. It is meant for close defence against infantry whom flank the tank.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Hey guys anyone else notice the hell hammer gets a lasgun in it's profile?

Is there something I'm missing here?

Yeah it is really weird. No reason it should be there at all, not on model or ever mentioned previously. Maybe we should model the tank commander holding one? (-:

That actually made me think that tank commander's fighting totally makes sense now. You could have a pistol weapon for the tank, and have a powersword with a rule like "gets 2 attacks in addition to track attacks".

If GW is listening, it better be called "Drive me closer"

If they did it then it would be a minor PR victory, as it would get pretty wide attention for such a small rule. It wouldn't even be that good. You could keep the 6+ ws to account for how hard it is to fight from a turret. Or you could give the weapon +1 to hit, like a revers power fist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Hey guys anyone else notice the hell hammer gets a lasgun in it's profile?

Is there something I'm missing here?

Nope, take a took at the back of the turret. If you leave the bustle off there is a little ball mounted lasgun that can be fitted instead, kind of like the machine gun in a KV-1's turret. It is meant for close defence against infantry whom flank the tank.

Lol, never noticed that.

So, in other news, medics will probably not be as good as I initially thought. I'm going to copy the rule in it's entirety and then explain why

"At the end of any of your movement phase, a model with a medi-pack can attempt to heal a single model. Select a friendly ASTRA MILITARUM INFANTRY unit within 3" and roll a d6. On a roll of a 4+, one model in the unit recovers a wound it lost earlier in the battle (if the unit has a wounds characteristic of 1, one model slain earlier in the battle is returned to the unit instead) A unit can only be the target of this ability once each turn."


So, what this means is we probably can't bring characters back from the dead. Because we need to be able to target a unit. Characters are a unit of 1, and once they're dead, they're removed from the battlefield as far as I'm aware. This means there would be no unit to target to heal a wound to, as it is gone.

Essentially, as far as I can tell, you can heal officers if they're still standing, but you will not be able to bring them back from the dead. Pretty big hit to the medic's utility in my opinion

I haven't checked but I know that we have two, Nork and Kell can both take wounds for a character near them.

Unfortunately it looks like Kell is <Cadian> not <MyRegiment>. I guess I could kitbash a Nork though. Bah. Is my understand that if you're using <MyRegiment> there is no "counts as <guy from Notmyregiment>" anymore, correct?



I really am a little concerned by potential mass sniper rifle abuse (THAT is a sentence I never thought I'd hear myself say). Our characters are NOT fancy space marine heroes running around in artificier armor. We go squish too easy. Marines can do it with sniper scouts too. Deathmarks too maybe?

Also, taurox primes are worth taking just as fire support units. A single vehicle is putting out 28 S4 shots (8 with AP -2) at BS 3+ for 96pts.

I'm halfway tempted to take a stormtrooper squad just so I can deepstriking them in and let their taurox just provide fire support in my main line, it's pretty insane. Only downside is it can only carry stormtroopers and commissars, but that's not a big deal if you're using it solely for shooting.

Ivan wrote:

I haven't checked but I know that we have two, Nork and Kell can both take wounds for a character near them.

Unfortunately it looks like Kell is <Cadian> not <MyRegiment>. I guess I could kitbash a Nork though. Bah. Is my understand that if you're using <MyRegiment> there is no "counts as <guy from Notmyregiment>" anymore, correct?

Well don't forget that Pask is Cadian too, and I can guarantee that people are going to use him in their own regiments. People have been using named characters as their own versions for years, there really is no problem doing it against most normal opponents. The keyword system does introduce one restriction though: you can't mix the regiments up. So no taking Straken and Kell and calling them both the Tvashtan 422nd.

Really, just call them your own regiment. If anyone has a problem with that, just say "actually, these totally ARE cadian. They are wearing super rare arctic warfare camo. And they changed all their heraldry because of a bureaucratic mix up. And Kell is insisting that everyone calls him Steve for some reason".

Ivan wrote:

I haven't checked but I know that we have two, Nork and Kell can both take wounds for a character near them.

Unfortunately it looks like Kell is <Cadian> not <MyRegiment>. I guess I could kitbash a Nork though. Bah. Is my understand that if you're using <MyRegiment> there is no "counts as <guy from Notmyregiment>" anymore, correct?



I really am a little concerned by potential mass sniper rifle abuse (THAT is a sentence I never thought I'd hear myself say). Our characters are NOT fancy space marine heroes running around in artificier armor. We go squish too easy. Marines can do it with sniper scouts too. Deathmarks too maybe?

Most of our characters have at least 3 wounds and 5+ Invulns. Not to mention a lot of them are 20-30pts. The opponent is going to be investing far more points than that to ensure just a single IG character dies per turn. Now keep in mind any sane IG player running infantry is going to have 10-20 characters or so. In order for your opponent to have enough shots to wipe out your characters with sniper fire within the first 2-3 turns, his army will be hideously gimped against your main force, even without orders and commissars. Youre also acting like there is no terrain to hide things behind, or even just hiding the model physically with ogryn or vehicles. Remember, the sniper still needs to see the target to shoot it. I wouldn't be surprised to see ogryn anchored in a line not just as a counterattack element, but as a mobile bunker for your officers to hide behind if snipers are present. Ive been hearing ogryn got buffed and if so they could do the trick. Those slabshields especially would do wonders at blocking line of sight.

That being said many armies will rely on characters in this edition so how knows, sniper spam could well become a thing that we'll need to prepare for.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So, in other news, medics will probably not be as good as I initially thought. I'm going to copy the rule in it's entirety and then explain why

"At the end of any of your movement phase, a model with a medi-pack can attempt to heal a single model. Select a friendly ASTRA MILITARUM INFANTRY unit within 3" and roll a d6. On a roll of a 4+, one model in the unit recovers a wound it lost earlier in the battle (if the unit has a wounds characteristic of 1, one model slain earlier in the battle is returned to the unit instead) A unit can only be the target of this ability once each turn."


So, what this means is we probably can't bring characters back from the dead. Because we need to be able to target a unit. Characters are a unit of 1, and once they're dead, they're removed from the battlefield as far as I'm aware. This means there would be no unit to target to heal a wound to, as it is gone.

Essentially, as far as I can tell, you can heal officers if they're still standing, but you will not be able to bring them back from the dead. Pretty big hit to the medic's utility in my opinion

Actually, I can see some synergy there with Commissar Yarrick since he can essentially come back from the dead. Then heal him up. Its a limited/unique cicumstance but something. Additionally you can heal bullgryn with them.

I see alot of people upset about the slots units fill in 8th. While I agree some of them make you scratch your head, I think they are designed that way for what is to come. I have no inside knowledge but I think regiment doctrines are coming back.

Take a look at the chimera for example. Its not great in 8th. Lost its firing access point rule & command vehicle rule and costs over 100 points. It may be possible to give orders from vehicle but now that characters can only be targeted by snipers its not as useful. Additionally it does not fill a spot in our bread and butter brigade detachment.

If however Steel legion regiment specific rules come into play. I can easily see them becoming a fast attack slot. Not amazing, but certainly better than they are now. Something to think about.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So, in other news, medics will probably not be as good as I initially thought. I'm going to copy the rule in it's entirety and then explain why

"At the end of any of your movement phase, a model with a medi-pack can attempt to heal a single model. Select a friendly ASTRA MILITARUM INFANTRY unit within 3" and roll a d6. On a roll of a 4+, one model in the unit recovers a wound it lost earlier in the battle (if the unit has a wounds characteristic of 1, one model slain earlier in the battle is returned to the unit instead) A unit can only be the target of this ability once each turn."


So, what this means is we probably can't bring characters back from the dead. Because we need to be able to target a unit. Characters are a unit of 1, and once they're dead, they're removed from the battlefield as far as I'm aware. This means there would be no unit to target to heal a wound to, as it is gone.

Essentially, as far as I can tell, you can heal officers if they're still standing, but you will not be able to bring them back from the dead. Pretty big hit to the medic's utility in my opinion

You wanted a 10pt piece of wargear to bring characters back from the dead? On the upside they can still bring Heavy Weapon Teams and whatnot back, so it's not completely useless.

 Fenris-77 wrote:
On the upside they can still bring Heavy Weapon Teams and whatnot back, so it's not completely useless.

Actually they can't. They can only bring back dead models in a unit with a wound characteristic of 1. They can just heal a wound on HWTs.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So, in other news, medics will probably not be as good as I initially thought. I'm going to copy the rule in it's entirety and then explain why

"At the end of any of your movement phase, a model with a medi-pack can attempt to heal a single model. Select a friendly ASTRA MILITARUM INFANTRY unit within 3" and roll a d6. On a roll of a 4+, one model in the unit recovers a wound it lost earlier in the battle (if the unit has a wounds characteristic of 1, one model slain earlier in the battle is returned to the unit instead) A unit can only be the target of this ability once each turn."


So, what this means is we probably can't bring characters back from the dead. Because we need to be able to target a unit. Characters are a unit of 1, and once they're dead, they're removed from the battlefield as far as I'm aware. This means there would be no unit to target to heal a wound to, as it is gone.

Essentially, as far as I can tell, you can heal officers if they're still standing, but you will not be able to bring them back from the dead. Pretty big hit to the medic's utility in my opinion

Medics also can't bring back characters because characters have more than 1 wound, and the medic can only revive 1-wound models.

This also means medics cannot revive Ogryns or Heavy Weapon Teams.

Other factions with medic-equivalents can revive multi-wound models as far as I can tell, and restore d3 wounds with their heal ability instead of 1 wound. Not sure why the IG medic got the short end of the stick there when he already has fewer valid targets, and those targets aren't worth as many points even when he succeeds.

Oh well, a minor loss. Not like the medic was ever worth his points before.