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 ross-128 wrote:
I suppose one interesting/oddball change is that the lasgun arrays "can only be used if a unit is embarked on the transport". It doesn't say anything about having enough models to man the lasguns, if there's "a unit" of any size in the Chimera, both lasgun arrays (all six lasguns) can fire. And with the loss of firing arcs, they can all fire at the same target.

The only unit I can think of that is both cheaper than six lasgun guardsmen and capable of boarding a Chimera though is an Astropath, and it's such a small thing that it's more of an amusing curiosity than anything actually useful.

I guess an Astropath psychically controlling six lasguns technically is legit though.

DRIVE ME CLOSER I WANT TO HIT THEM WITH MY SIX LASGUNS! Maybe commissars?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

There's also the problem that more than likely matched play will limit formations, which if we're going to be honest here, most metas will likely do. This means that infantry guard is facing a very real risk of not having enough slots (even with brigades) to deploy their army. If this happens, infantry squads will be dead in the water, and odds are you'll see most players default to conscripts and stormtroopers, or running the elite formation for a core of veteran squads. I know people are already saying "well how the heck are you going to run out of formations with guard?" but when many of our best choices in each slot cost 30-40pts KITTED OUT, slots will be at a premium, especially if you try to take allies which will eat up an entire formation..

Out of curiosity how many infantry squads you would like to field if 36 troop choices(3 brigades, suggested limit for 2k) isn't enough? Even if tournament is stricter than suggested with 2 that's still 24 infantry squad. 240 models. Tough to field and half the points already O_o

Useless Sidekick wrote:
What's everyone's take on the hunter killer missile? It's still one shot but it's price has dropped sharply and with d6 damage it could be interesting?

Split fire and 6 points ensures that I'll be running them on essentially every vehicle. But I'm also experiencing that giddy rush on heavy stubbers for 4 points. Thank God I've been hoarding stubbers for years now! Premium salvage for the win.




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FunJohn wrote:

 Humble Guardsman wrote:
Am I right in thinking that the Valkyrie disembark rules allow a unit to move after they have disembark, thus circumventing the the 9" rule? I read that as the unit only have to set up outside of 9" once while disembarking, they can still move closer as part of their normal move.

I'm not familiar with the disembark rules yet, are you allowed to move after disembarking? If so I read it the same way. I would think of it this way: they are not deep-striking, they just have a "worse" disembark rule then normal transports, that states that they must be setup within 3 of the vehicle and 1 inch away from any enemies. in this case it's just 9 instead of 1.

Meltas feel like the big disappointment now. Ability to jump out of a Valk, walk, get within 6", and nukashot might be the consolation prize they need.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ross-128 wrote:
Hmm, I guess one way to deal with line of sight would be to model officers kneeling, ducking, or in some other pose that makes sure they're shorter than your infantry models. Then deploy your infantry squads in tight, staggered ranks in front of the officer to block line of sight to him, since they don't have to worry about templates anymore.

It'd be modeling for advantage a bit but if you put some variety into the poses you can avoid being too blatant about it.

This I suspect might be a new (and potentially vitriolic) problem with my local group. Is line of sight from face to whatever? Is it true line of sight that way, because it almost instantly hits micromanagement absurdity. My back rank of guys in the same squad? My squad to the squad in front? I'm shooting at your guy behind a squad... he's more visible the further back I am since the angle is shallower. Oh look, Steel Legion heavy bolters have the good sense to lay prone when firing... so get an advantage? Basically it can get knife-pulling infuriating VERY quickly if one is pedantic.

Everyone I know has been treating intervening models as cover for multiple editions now. But now they just flat dont since in lots of ways it's like 4th edition cover.

I'm glad I'm not a tournament organizer trying to rule on this in the first month.

Hmm, now I'm wanting to mathhammer 12 half-range meltaguns (in three four-man command squads) vs 8 overcharged plasmaguns re-rolling 1s as an anti-tank drop force (the officer to let them re-roll 1s unfortunately doesn't leave enough room in the transport for a third squad). Against an LRBT I guess, it's beefy enough to be a benchmark.

12 meltagun shots hitting on 3 should give 9 hits, wounding on 4s is 4.5, AP-4 means no save. 2d6 discarding lowest is a bit tricky, but with 4.5 wounds a 1d6 was already averaging enough to kill it, so with the melta bonus yeah it's probably dead.

8 plasma guns in rapid-fire gives 16 shots, hitting on 3s re-rolling 1s gives 10.6 hits and 2.6 1s, which get rerolled to another 1.7 hits for 12.3 hits total. Wounding on 4s gives 6.15, -3AP is a 6+ save for 5 wounds doing 10 damage.

Though it looks like if you don't mind sacrificing some people to Gets Hot, you could do a 12-man plasma drop too and it would more or less get the same results as the melta drop.

Cost-wise, a 12-man melta drop will cost 216 points plus their transport (72 for 12 vets, 144 for 12 melta guns). The 8-man plasma drop will either cost 134 plus the transport (30 for a commander, 48 for 8 vets, 56 for 8 plasma guns) or 168 with no transport, since the plasma gun's 12" rapid-fire range allows it to function with a scion deep-strike (40 for a Tempestor with command stick, 72 for 8 scions, 56 for 8 plasma guns).

8 rapid fire supercharged plasma reroll 1s has an aggregate average of 6.481 repeating damage. It will also kill .4 reapeating of your models from overheat.

12 meltas, no reroll 1s, half range, will do 20.115 damage.

Both are calculated at 3+ bs.

8 meltas do 13.41 damage btw.

I'm largely happy with the rules. Just two little nit picks:

It would have been really easy to keep the chimeras mobile command vehicle rule. Just say that an officer embarked upon it can still use their voice of command rule, measuring from any point on the vehicles hull. And whilst embarked upon the chimera the range of their voc is 18", because it has its own vox casters.

I would also love a baneblade commander, representing a really high ranking IG officer joining the battle. It's a baneblade that has both the voice of command rule (with an 18" range) and the tank orders rule too.

But overall I'm liking the direction they're going in.

Half range melta average dam is pretty close to 4.5 in regards to math above

Question about the new rules. Can you give a unit two orders and have the effects stack?

Also, how do sniper rifles work? It says if you roll a 6 the target takes a mortal wound in addition to any normal damage. Does this mean that if you roll a 6 to wound, the target rolls their armor save as normal and takes that wound + another mortal wound?

IronJack wrote:
Question about the new rules. Can you give a unit two orders and have the effects stack?

Also, how do sniper rifles work? It says if you roll a 6 the target takes a mortal wound in addition to any normal damage. Does this mean that if you roll a 6 to wound, the target rolls their armor save as normal and takes that wound + another mortal wound?

Orders don't stack and that is a correct description of how snipers work now.

tneva82 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

There's also the problem that more than likely matched play will limit formations, which if we're going to be honest here, most metas will likely do. This means that infantry guard is facing a very real risk of not having enough slots (even with brigades) to deploy their army. If this happens, infantry squads will be dead in the water, and odds are you'll see most players default to conscripts and stormtroopers, or running the elite formation for a core of veteran squads. I know people are already saying "well how the heck are you going to run out of formations with guard?" but when many of our best choices in each slot cost 30-40pts KITTED OUT, slots will be at a premium, especially if you try to take allies which will eat up an entire formation..

Out of curiosity how many infantry squads you would like to field if 36 troop choices(3 brigades, suggested limit for 2k) isn't enough? Even if tournament is stricter than suggested with 2 that's still 24 infantry squad. 240 models. Tough to field and half the points already O_o

The main slot guard players will want is elite choices

Commissars, Ratlings, company command squads, veterans, and Platoon Commanders all compete for elites slots, and all are very good/important to make your list the best it can be.

I feel like spammed Plasma Scions are going to "that guy's" army. I say that as I'm converting my Scion meltas to plasmas or course, but I fear taking too many squads of these guys because it seems borderline broken.

IronJack wrote:
Also, how do sniper rifles work? It says if you roll a 6 the target takes a mortal wound in addition to any normal damage. Does this mean that if you roll a 6 to wound, the target rolls their armor save as normal and takes that wound + another mortal wound?

Not sure if your wording implied it, but just in case: you take the mortal wound no matter if the save is a pass or fail, it is separate.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
I feel like spammed Plasma Scions are going to "that guy's" army. I say that as I'm converting my Scion meltas to plasmas or course, but I fear taking too many squads of these guys because it seems borderline broken.

It is always bittersweet when a unit you love gets a power boost. People sometimes give you flak about being a bandwagon jumper or whatever, yet you've been playing Scions for ages. I know people who have played Scion only armies since they came out, struggling with a mediocre list because they really love them. Now they get thrust to the top of the pile.

Basically, taking scions will be meta, everything else dog poo, besides 500 conscripts.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
The main slot guard players will want is elite choices

Commissars, Ratlings, company command squads, veterans, and Platoon Commanders all compete for elites slots, and all are very good/important to make your list the best it can be.

Well 36 troops and 24 elites still sound like you should be safe

tneva82 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
The main slot guard players will want is elite choices

Commissars, Ratlings, company command squads, veterans, and Platoon Commanders all compete for elites slots, and all are very good/important to make your list the best it can be.

Well 36 troops and 24 elites still sound like you should be safe

Not really, still got points to worry, and there is better for cost units in the elite option.

Looking at the cost of the LR and we went from 150 for a basic LR to 162 points. As far as what a lot of vehicles got bumped 12 points is not to bad for the durability part of the cost anyways.

The damage of the LR well at first glance it looks like it is really low, but in truth how many times did the template miss completely and/or get the hit for three wounds. so not really that upset by it but would like two d3 or a d6 plus one would be nice.

I played the punisher since fifth as i like them for close support with out a chance of killing my own men, but the LR was so easy to destroy i ended up playing tau. punisher was 160 points with sponsons, now it comes in at 168 pts add in the storm bolter for two more points 170 points.

10 points for a far more durable LR, and an extra couple of shots yeah i think they are playable.

Is it wrong that I'm over the moon now that we seem to have a meta unit? Storm troooers finally being as good as they should be.

 Rpant wrote:
Looking at the cost of the LR and we went from 150 for a basic LR to 162 points. As far as what a lot of vehicles got bumped 12 points is not to bad for the durability part of the cost anyways.

The damage of the LR well at first glance it looks like it is really low, but in truth how many times did the template miss completely and/or get the hit for three wounds. so not really that upset by it but would like two d3 or a d6 plus one would be nice.

I played the punisher since fifth as i like them for close support with out a chance of killing my own men, but the LR was so easy to destroy i ended up playing tau. punisher was 160 points with sponsons, now it comes in at 168 pts add in the storm bolter for two more points 170 points.

10 points for a far more durable LR, and an extra couple of shots yeah i think they are playable.

That doesn't sound right at all.

basic LR 132pts battle cannon 22, heavy bolter 8= 162 pts

punisher 132 pts, punisher cannon 22, 3 heavy bolter 24 storm bolter 2= 180

sorry forgot to carry one or something, eating ice cream and typing not my strong suit

Punisher cannon is actually 20 points, for what little difference 2 points makes.

But yeah, IG was largely spared the price hikes that other factions' vehicles got. The only thing that really put our vehicles in a tough spot is our infantry got buffed so much, and I suppose having one part of our army buffed so much that it overshadows another part is kind of a "first world problem".

It's just that the removal of templates has been a rather big deal for infantry hordes. Having so many models on the table that you can't space them adequately is no longer a weakness, the staying power of hordes has improved dramatically, and dealing with the fact that the only way to remove them is sheer volume of fire has required a lot of adjustment.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Commissars, Ratlings, company command squads, veterans, and Platoon Commanders all compete for elites slots, and all are very good/important to make your list the best it can be.

Platoon Commanders being Elite instead of HQ kind of tees me off, tbh. I don't see a balance reason for it, and the 2 HQ requirement/competitive slot means many armies are going to have their lieutenants outnumbered by their captains.

 ross-128 wrote:
Punisher cannon is actually 20 points, for what little difference 2 points makes.

But yeah, IG was largely spared the price hikes that other factions' vehicles got. The only thing that really put our vehicles in a tough spot is our infantry got buffed so much, and I suppose having one part of our army buffed so much that it overshadows another part is kind of a "first world problem".

It's just that the removal of templates has been a rather big deal for infantry hordes. Having so many models on the table that you can't space them adequately is no longer a weakness, the staying power of hordes has improved dramatically, and dealing with the fact that the only way to remove them is sheer volume of fire has required a lot of adjustment.

sorry my sheet looks like 22 but the print is not a good one.

infantry are going to be a new thing there is no doubt, but we have lots of things to deal with them. (morters look amazing)

LR may be the new anti tank not sure but i really do like the look of tanks this time around.

chimeras got the bat but not as bad as some in my opinion but i will not be fielding 10 of them anymore.

i plan on a bunch of infantry running with the tanks much like the soviet advances you see in the films.

Yeah, I'd definitely rather have PCs in the HQ slot. They are commanders after all, the command slot is under-populated, the elite slot is over-populated, it would just make sense.

Also I'm pretty frequently finding myself already having all the Orders I want when building a list, but still taking more Company Commanders because they're the cheapest way to unlock a detachment I want. It would be nice if I could use a 20-point platoon commander for that instead.

 ross-128 wrote:
Yeah, I'd definitely rather have PCs in the HQ slot. They are commanders after all, the command slot is under-populated, the elite slot is over-populated, it would just make sense.

Also I'm pretty frequently finding myself already having all the Orders I want when building a list, but still taking more Company Commanders because they're the cheapest way to unlock a detachment I want. It would be nice if I could use a 20-point platoon commander for that instead.

Personally I'm house-ruling it in my group. I don't play Matched anyway and am not using it to cheese out my elite slots; it just makes the units I field more sensibly organized.

Yeah, it's pretty weird that Platoon Commanders are an elite choice now - they should totally be HQ units.

Also, Scions+Taurox Prime's are the new meta - shame, I like those units; but they're just too good to pass up nowadays. Everyone will be running them and heavy weapons teams.

Also, tanks for IG not being so great anymore, sadface.

Vets are pretty useless now.

It's a shame that the platoon commanders aren't HQ. It would have been nice to build small armies around a single platoon.

I'm actually happy that I'll still have things to do in the proposed rules forum.

 Rpant wrote:
Looking at the cost of the LR and we went from 150 for a basic LR to 162 points. As far as what a lot of vehicles got bumped 12 points is not to bad for the durability part of the cost anyways.

The damage of the LR well at first glance it looks like it is really low, but in truth how many times did the template miss completely and/or get the hit for three wounds. so not really that upset by it but would like two d3 or a d6 plus one would be nice.

I played the punisher since fifth as i like them for close support with out a chance of killing my own men, but the LR was so easy to destroy i ended up playing tau. punisher was 160 points with sponsons, now it comes in at 168 pts add in the storm bolter for two more points 170 points.

10 points for a far more durable LR, and an extra couple of shots yeah i think they are playable.

I agree about the LRBT. People forget just how bad the LRBT was in 7th, probably because they stopped using them so long ago. As someone who doggedly tried to make them useful vs Tau and drop podding SWs with TWC, I think that 8th has only improved them. I also think we will see the rise of the Heavy Flamer Russ as a close support assault deterrent. From another thread:

In 7th your troops protected your tanks, but I feel like your tanks are going to be protecting your troops in this edition. Our infantry will be vaporized by melee units if they don't have some vehicles protecting them. a LRBT with heavy flamers, maybe a lascannon and a battle cannon is going to be a great anchor for our line; a big threat at range and quite the melee deterrent too. Picture this, you have a gunline of infantry, advancing or stationary, with Heavy Flamer equipped tanks out front, facing an assault based army. They close to the critical distance so that you have 1 more turn before they are charging you. Rather than bubble wrap your tanks, you advance your Russes to meet the oncoming assault units, getting within 8" of them with your generous movement stat, and open up with up to 3D6 Str 5 AP-1 auto hits as well as the main cannon. That could very well toast a squad right there as well as induce terrible battle shock, but the magic is yet to come. Your Russ is now positioned between your infantry and the Assault unit. If they charge it they immediately face 3D6 auto heavy flamer hits again. Remember, this enemy squad is already depleted because of the initial toasting. They may not be willing to even make that charge but what option do they have? If they don't engage your Russ and eat the overwatch you are going to toast them again. If they do, your Russ has a great chance of surviving and you will disengage on your turn and then open up with your unscathed infantry. They are damned if they charge, and damned if they don't.

This is why I'm bringing infernus pistols to the party

Martel732 wrote:
This is why I'm bringing infernus pistols to the party

Exactly, because you really don't want to charge that thing. I think people advocating pure infantry Guard though are going to be surprised them a squad of Khorne Berserkers insta-gibs 2 squads on a multicharge, consolidates into another squad, gibs them mercilessly and then consolidates into another. Or your commissar gets sniped and men start dropping like flies to battleshock. I don't even want to think of facing something like Nu BAs or SWs with pure infantry because between first turn charges, charges out of deep strike and charges out of transports I think they will lawnmower right through you regardless of how many men you bring. Combined arms seems the best approach to me, an the LR definitely has a role to play. I think they did a really good job internally balancing the IG list, with a couple exceptions.