Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup

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**ross-128**

Using them as charge-blockers is a potentially interesting application. Though I wonder if Hellhounds or even Sentinels might be better in that application. They're not nearly as durable of course, but Hellhounds give you a heavy flamer and inferno cannon for 110 points, while Sentinels can put heavy flamers down for 52 points each. A triple-flame and Punisher LRBT is looking at 203 points. Though, bringing higher saves and a Punisher to the party certainly is potentially worth it.

Of course, I would certainly vastly prefer a Punisher over the battle cannon in that application because if you're using a flamer wall to block charges, you're going to be well within 24" anyway. Might as well bring the dakka.

**Formerly Wu**

Otto von Bludd wrote:

In 7th your troops protected your tanks, but I feel like your tanks are going to be protecting your troops in this edition. Our infantry will be vaporized by melee units if they don't have some vehicles protecting them. a LRBT with heavy flamers, maybe a lascannon and a battle cannon is going to be a great anchor for our line; a big threat at range and quite the melee deterrent too. Picture this, you have a gunline of infantry, advancing or stationary, with Heavy Flamer equipped tanks out front, facing an assault based army. They close to the critical distance so that you have 1 more turn before they are charging you. Rather than bubble wrap your tanks, you advance your Russes to meet the oncoming assault units, getting within 8" of them with your generous movement stat, and open up with up to 3D6 Str 5 AP-1 auto hits as well as the main cannon. That could very well toast a squad right there as well as induce terrible battle shock, but the magic is yet to come. Your Russ is now positioned between your infantry and the Assault unit. If they charge it they immediately face 3D6 auto heavy flamer hits again. Remember, this enemy squad is already depleted because of the initial toasting. They may not be willing to even make that charge but what option do they have? If they don't engage your Russ and eat the overwatch you are going to toast them again. If they do, your Russ has a great chance of surviving and you will disengage on your turn and then open up with your unscathed infantry. They are damned if they charge, and damned if they don't.

Hellhounds also work well for this. Only D6 hits, but S6, 2 damage, and longer range. Plus they're faster and explode on a 4+ instead of a 6+, meaning an aggressively placed Hellhound is both a speedbump and a Mortal Wound threat.

**Trickstick**

I think that the fireball russ will be my go to variant if I want to run an advancing army, the -1 to hit on other weapons really makes me want to never move them. In fact, I am pretty much going to treat vehicles as immobile for most of the game if they lose BS on the move. It doesn't even really matter if it is a bad decision or not, I just see that -1 and think "better stay still then". The demolisher and punisher may be reasonable as advancing tanks, which is what I always tried to use them as.

I am actually coming around on the idea of mech (well, Armoured Battle Group in my case). The ability to vastly reduce the units that you put on the board and get within reach of going first is really appealing. Cheap armoured fist squads in chimeras/taurox, with extra chimera slots filled with various buff characters, could make a reasonably mobile fighting force. You also are not losing to much by leaving your units inside transports until they are needed.

Mech could work so well with Krieg too, as their grenadiers in Centaurs could be extremly effective if given the right price, as I am guessing that the Centaur is still open-topped and fast.

**Martel732**

Otto von Bludd wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
This is why I'm bringing infernus pistols to the party

Exactly, because you really don't want to charge that thing. I think people advocating pure infantry Guard though are going to be surprised them a squad of Khorne Berserkers insta-gibs 2 squads on a multicharge, consolidates into another squad, gibs them mercilessly and then consolidates into another. Or your commissar gets sniped and men start dropping like flies to battleshock. I don't even want to think of facing something like Nu BAs or SWs with pure infantry because between first turn charges, charges out of deep strike and charges out of transports I think they will lawnmower right through you regardless of how many men you bring. Combined arms seems the best approach to me, an the LR definitely has a role to play. I think they did a really good job internally balancing the IG list, with a couple exceptions.

There's actually quite a bit of stuff BA don't want to fight in CC, but that's why we've got the Baal predator and a crap ton of melta still.

**NenkotaMoon**

Yea, full infantry IG is getting somewhat annoying in the tactics thread.

**kurhanik**

I for one am loving the buff that Volley Guns have received - the guns themselves are cheaper, as are the platforms they come on, and instead of salvo 2/4, they are just heavy 4. I look forward to dropping a few of them down to just mulch infantry, considering heavy only brings a -1BS anymore. They are worse at killing marines than they previously were, but the volume of fire will make up for it somewhat I would imagine.

Long story short, I am glad I have somehow amassed a large number of scions, kasrkin, and 3rd edition stormtroopers over the past year or two (I seriously don't remember how, I went from about 3 boxes of scions total to something like 25 scions, 50 kasrkin, and 50 stormtroopers over a 6 month period...).

**Otto von Bludd**

Formerly Wu wrote:
Otto von Bludd wrote:

In 7th your troops protected your tanks, but I feel like your tanks are going to be protecting your troops in this edition. Our infantry will be vaporized by melee units if they don't have some vehicles protecting them. a LRBT with heavy flamers, maybe a lascannon and a battle cannon is going to be a great anchor for our line; a big threat at range and quite the melee deterrent too. Picture this, you have a gunline of infantry, advancing or stationary, with Heavy Flamer equipped tanks out front, facing an assault based army. They close to the critical distance so that you have 1 more turn before they are charging you. Rather than bubble wrap your tanks, you advance your Russes to meet the oncoming assault units, getting within 8" of them with your generous movement stat, and open up with up to 3D6 Str 5 AP-1 auto hits as well as the main cannon. That could very well toast a squad right there as well as induce terrible battle shock, but the magic is yet to come. Your Russ is now positioned between your infantry and the Assault unit. If they charge it they immediately face 3D6 auto heavy flamer hits again. Remember, this enemy squad is already depleted because of the initial toasting. They may not be willing to even make that charge but what option do they have? If they don't engage your Russ and eat the overwatch you are going to toast them again. If they do, your Russ has a great chance of surviving and you will disengage on your turn and then open up with your unscathed infantry. They are damned if they charge, and damned if they don't.

Hellhounds also work well for this. Only D6 hits, but S6, 2 damage, and longer range. Plus they're faster and explode on a 4+ instead of a 6+, meaning an aggressively placed Hellhound is both a speedbump and a Mortal Wound threat.

The other great option is going to be a dual HF Chimera I think. At first I was scared of the point cost, but a Chimera with dual HF is no longer a mere transport, it's nearly a Hellhound and a real threat. I am really warming up to (no pun intended) that idea. Armored Fist squads rolling up to objectives in a mini Hellhound for a turn 2 assault after a turn 1 smoke sounds very viable.

**MrMoustaffa**

Otto von Bludd wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
This is why I'm bringing infernus pistols to the party

Exactly, because you really don't want to charge that thing. I think people advocating pure infantry Guard though are going to be surprised them a squad of Khorne Berserkers insta-gibs 2 squads on a multicharge, consolidates into another squad, gibs them mercilessly and then consolidates into another. Or your commissar gets sniped and men start dropping like flies to battleshock. I don't even want to think of facing something like Nu BAs or SWs with pure infantry because between first turn charges, charges out of deep strike and charges out of transports I think they will lawnmower right through you regardless of how many men you bring. Combined arms seems the best approach to me, an the LR definitely has a role to play. I think they did a really good job internally balancing the IG list, with a couple exceptions.

They don't get to keep going and going in a single turn though. Yes, the initial unit will be mulched because they're guardsmen, but then you pull back your next unit, order "Get back in the fight" so they can shoot, and unload into the melee unit at close range.

I'm interested in trying the Fireball russ, but I don't think infantry army is going to get mulched in two turns like you're claiming it will.

**usmcmidn**

Well there goes my beautifully converted all carapace army...

**Trickstick**

usmcmidn wrote:
Well there goes my beautifully converted all carapace army...

Why? Not like you can't just run it anyway. Nowhere is it defined that carapace models can't be used as normal Guardsmen. I know it kinda sucks to lose the 4+ but it's not like you need to rip apart your conversions to get them to look like a 5+ save.

Also, you could always consider running a dkok army with them. The combat engineers and grenadiers are both carapace models, so will likely keep a 4+.

**SU-152**

No talk about artillery?? it seems pretty powerful to me, no penalties for indirect fire, hard hitting, not that expensive...

**Trickstick**

SU-152 wrote:
No talk about artillery?? it seems pretty powerful to me, no penalties for indirect fire, hard hitting, not that expensive...

Manticore looks really fun. I only own Manticores and Hydras though, I'm not too sure about the other variants. The Manticore seems really good at targeting any unit with multiple wounds. I don't know if having only 4 shots will turn out badly, but front loading your damage into the first 4 turns seems like a decent idea to me.

Thinking some more about the Fireball Punisher/Demolisher. It gets decent shooting and overwatch, but if even a single model gets within 1" it is locked in combat and can't do a thing. One option is to sit there, not killing much because of the 6+ to hit. Or you can fall back, being useless but letting other units fire at the target. I guess you could also move up some combat support, but the Russ is still useless for a turn.

**usmcmidn**

Trickstick wrote:
usmcmidn wrote:
Well there goes my beautifully converted all carapace army...

Why? Not like you can't just run it anyway. Nowhere is it defined that carapace models can't be used as normal Guardsmen. I know it kinda sucks to lose the 4+ but it's not like you need to rip apart your conversions to get them to look like a 5+ save.

Also, you could always consider running a dkok army with them. The combat engineers and grenadiers are both carapace models, so will likely keep a 4+.

I may look into DKOK, I never thought about that. Are the grenadiers and/or engineers troop choices by any chance?

**Trickstick**

usmcmidn wrote:
I may look into DKOK, I never thought about that. Are the grenadiers and/or engineers troop choices by any chance?

Well we won't know for sure until the FW indices are released later this month. However, going off the previous rules grenadiers were elites and engineers were troops.

**Kommissar Kel**

How about a quuck discussion on scout sentinels. At first they didn't seem too great, then I took a closer look.

At 54 ppm for a heavy flamer and chainsaw(60 if you add a hunter-killer), and the scout move not having a charge restriction; they can make for a really good first turn damage-and-die unit.

While the scout move must end more than 9" away, the first turn still allows a move... Of 9", so you can absolutely end them under 2" for a guaranteed charge, fire the heavy flamer for auto-hitting(and target a vehicle or other large model with the H-K), then charge them in for a delaying tactic(single attack with the same profile as the heavy flamer).

It is not the toughest nut for your oppinent to crack, but a squadron of 2 or 3 of them might even keep a unit(or 2) in the enemy DZ until turn 3.

**Trickstick**

Kommissar Kel wrote:
How about a quuck discussion on scout sentinels.

Hmmm, first turn charging sentinels are an interesting idea. You would have to be careful about being inside the enemies charge range if going second. However, if you can charge a unit that wants to come and munch your forces, then I can see it working well as a delaying tactic. For instance, if you take 3 single sentinels then the enemy has to decide how many attacks to put on each one. This can lead to overkill and make some wounds just disappear. It all depends on the chances of surviving your own charge though, if you die then you are just giving them extra inches. But I can think of worse ways to use up the 3 fast attack choices in a brigade.

**ross-128**

Trickstick wrote:
SU-152 wrote:
No talk about artillery?? it seems pretty powerful to me, no penalties for indirect fire, hard hitting, not that expensive...

Manticore looks really fun. I only own Manticores and Hydras though, I'm not too sure about the other variants. The Manticore seems really good at targeting any unit with multiple wounds. I don't know if having only 4 shots will turn out badly, but front loading your damage into the first 4 turns seems like a decent idea to me.

Thinking some more about the Fireball Punisher/Demolisher. It gets decent shooting and overwatch, but if even a single model gets within 1" it is locked in combat and can't do a thing. One option is to sit there, not killing much because of the 6+ to hit. Or you can fall back, being useless but letting other units fire at the target. I guess you could also move up some combat support, but the Russ is still useless for a turn.

Yeah, I'm thinking the front-loaded damage will likely be worth. Especially since four turns is 80% of the game, so you're not missing out on much, and with 2d6 per turn you basically get to toss eight dice over the course of the game where most blast weapons would be tossing five.

The toughest challenger for the the Manticore is probably the Basilisk (mostly because the other significant rival, mortar teams, targets entirely different models). 2d6 drop low has the same ceiling as 1d6, but it does skew the Basilisk higher than a typical blast weapon and the Basilisk is 25 points cheaper.

So then the question becomes: is 25 points worth the difference between four turns of 2d6, and five turns of 2d6 drop low? Overall I think I'm leaning toward the Manticore, just because straight 2d6 can get 7+ about half the time, 2d6 drop low will get 3+ about 90% of the time, but it's capped at 6, I don't think one extra turn of shooting will make up for it, and I think the extra 25 points will likely be worth the difference.

However, if I happen to find that I need an extra multiple of 25 elsewhere in my list, downgrading Manticores to Basilisks would be a viable option to get those points.

**Kommissar Kel**

Trickstick wrote:
Kommissar Kel wrote:
How about a quuck discussion on scout sentinels.

Hmmm, first turn charging sentinels are an interesting idea. You would have to be careful about being inside the enemies charge range if going second. However, if you can charge a unit that wants to come and munch your forces, then I can see it working well as a delaying tactic. For instance, if you take 3 single sentinels then the enemy has to decide how many attacks to put on each one. This can lead to overkill and make some wounds just disappear. It all depends on the chances of surviving your own charge though, if you die then you are just giving them extra inches. But I can think of worse ways to use up the 3 fast attack choices in a brigade.

I was thinking more on it while working.

Our other options with scout sentinels are lascannon, missile launcher, or autocannons. All 3 of those guns paired with H-Ks will be extra nasty as a first-strike ranged tactic. Units of 3 deployed in the open but near cover-granting terrain. Bait deploy near-enough some proper targets(vehicles), then scout into cover and unload first turn. On average rolls with each weapon we should be able to strip a good 8w off most vehicle targets; who then, if they have 10 or more wounds are likely moving slow and barely able to hit anything.

Armored sentinels are even better with plasma cannons since you do not overheat if you don't supercharge. And Plasma in the overall shouldn't be supercharged except as a last resort(where you have likely lost to that target anyways).

**Inquisitor Lord Katherine**

ross-128 wrote:
Trickstick wrote:
SU-152 wrote:
No talk about artillery?? it seems pretty powerful to me, no penalties for indirect fire, hard hitting, not that expensive...

Manticore looks really fun. I only own Manticores and Hydras though, I'm not too sure about the other variants. The Manticore seems really good at targeting any unit with multiple wounds. I don't know if having only 4 shots will turn out badly, but front loading your damage into the first 4 turns seems like a decent idea to me.

Thinking some more about the Fireball Punisher/Demolisher. It gets decent shooting and overwatch, but if even a single model gets within 1" it is locked in combat and can't do a thing. One option is to sit there, not killing much because of the 6+ to hit. Or you can fall back, being useless but letting other units fire at the target. I guess you could also move up some combat support, but the Russ is still useless for a turn.

Yeah, I'm thinking the front-loaded damage will likely be worth. Especially since four turns is 80% of the game, so you're not missing out on much, and with 2d6 per turn you basically get to toss eight dice over the course of the game where most blast weapons would be tossing five.

The toughest challenger for the the Manticore is probably the Basilisk (mostly because the other significant rival, mortar teams, targets entirely different models). 2d6 drop low has the same ceiling as 1d6, but it does skew the Basilisk higher than a typical blast weapon and the Basilisk is 25 points cheaper.

So then the question becomes: is 25 points worth the difference between four turns of 2d6, and five turns of 2d6 drop low? Overall I think I'm leaning toward the Manticore, just because straight 2d6 can get 7+ about half the time, 2d6 drop low will get 3+ about 90% of the time, but it's capped at 6, I don't think one extra turn of shooting will make up for it, and I think the extra 25 points will likely be worth the difference.

However, if I happen to find that I need an extra multiple of 25 elsewhere in my list, downgrading Manticores to Basilisks would be a viable option to get those points.

I don't think the last round of shooting matters much. The battle is generally decided by that point. Manticores tend not to survive to the end of the game anyway, they're just too dangerous a unit to ignore.

**Trickstick**

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I don't think the last round of shooting matters much. The battle is generally decided by that point. Manticores tend not to survive to the end of the game anyway, they're just too dangerous a unit to ignore.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that. As much as I like the Manticore's front loaded damage, I think that last turn shooting to clear objectives can be really important.

**Future War Cultist**

The fact that sentinels are actually good now is a god send for me. I've got 18 of them!

Would heavy flamer and chainsaw equipped scout sentinels be too fragile to use as a line breaker unit? I'm thinking about small nids, tau infantry, genestealer Cultists. Those sorts of units.

**SuspiciousSucculent**

Thought on platoon commanders. With lots of people taking snipers to deal with buff characters, is it worth taking two platoon commanders instead of one company commander on occasion? You're paying 33% more for a 50% increase in durability (6 wounds vs 4). Two models vs one also means you can spread your orders around a bit easier if you don't want to invest in a vox network.

Obviously doesn't fill HQ requirement, but thems the brakes.

**Future War Cultist**

SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Thought on platoon commanders. With lots of people taking snipers to deal with buff characters, is it worth taking two platoon commanders instead of one company commander on occasion? You're paying 33% more for a 50% increase in durability (6 wounds vs 4). Two models vs one also means you can spread your orders around a bit easier if you don't want to invest in a vox network.

Obviously doesn't fill HQ requirement, but thems the brakes.

I think it is. What's the maximum amount of hq choices you can have?

Also, I just checked out the rules for smoke launchers...they go from shooting phase to shooting phase. Does the reduced to hit rule affect cc attacks as well? If so, those alpha striking scout sentinels suddenly look even better!

**Trickstick**

Future War Cultist wrote:
Also, I just checked out the rules for smoke launchers...they go from shooting phase to shooting phase. Does the reduced to hit rule affect cc attacks as well? If so, those alpha striking scout sentinels suddenly look even better!

It states "for ranged weapons that target it".

**Future War Cultist**

Damn. I guess I read what I wanted to read.

**xmbk**

Blacksails wrote:
I read that, but I must not have actually processed it. That's a really weird way to determine first turn.

Why? "Realism"-wise, certainly makes sense that bigger forces are more unwieldy. Balance-wise, morale penalizes big units for every scenario except No Mercy.

**Future War Cultist**

Wait, why do genestealer cultists get better smoke launchers than us? Their entry says that the enemy 'must subtract 1 from any hit rolls that target it' whilst they're deployed. No distinction is made between ranged and melee attacks. What the hell?

Is this a typo? Which one is the right one?

**Trickstick**

Future War Cultist wrote:
Wait, why do genestealer cultists get better smoke launchers than us? Their entry says that the enemy 'must subtract 1 from any hit rolls that target it' whilst they're deployed. No distinction is made between ranged and melee attacks. What the hell?

Is this a typo? Which one is the right one?

This plus the Vanquisher. I think there is a Genestealer infiltration within the Departmento Munitorum. They are diverting the best equipment to Genestealer Cults!

**Future War Cultist**

Trickstick wrote:
Future War Cultist wrote:
Wait, why do genestealer cultists get better smoke launchers than us? Their entry says that the enemy 'must subtract 1 from any hit rolls that target it' whilst they're deployed. No distinction is made between ranged and melee attacks. What the hell?

Is this a typo? Which one is the right one?

This plus the Vanquisher. I think there is a Genestealer infiltration within the Departmento Munitorum. They are diverting the best equipment to Genestealer Cults!

Damn those crafty slapheads!

**DanroMalaw**

Future War Cultist wrote:
The fact that sentinels are actually good now is a god send for me. I've got 18 of them!

Would heavy flamer and chainsaw equipped scout sentinels be too fragile to use as a line breaker unit? I'm thinking about small nids, tau infantry, genestealer Cultists. Those sorts of units.

I feel you there. Just got back into the game almost a year ago, only to have EVERYTHING i just re-learned change. Emperor's Talon formation looked like fun and Sentinels, armored and scout, were my favorite models. So next thing i knew i had 30 of em, and now the formation doesnt work.

Although, outrider detachment (theres your 18!) with a russ at the helm, maybe a couple more as backup, could also be interesting. I know i will definitely have at least one squad with plasma and hkms. Yay game-wide split fire