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2017/06/17 13:14:00
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Biophysical wrote: I'm basically spitballing here, but if you want to improve vehicle alpha strike efficiency of vehicles, you could do worse than Hunter Killer Missiles. 6 points for a s8 d6 wounds attack seriously increase the first turn damage efficiency.
Unfortunately, Pask and Tank Commanders can't get a hunter-killer. Which kind of sucks.
I can definitely see Hunter-Killers being basically a mandatory upgrade to Manticores and AT tanks that don't plan to move, though. But don't stick them on anti-infantry vehicles and vehicles that have to move to get range.
You definitely don't want it on tanks that move on turn 1. You use the missile on turn 1, since by turn 2 it's too late to crack a transport. And since you activate a tank and declare targets for all its weapons before resolving them, you can't try to nick the last wound off a transport with one and then open up on its contents with your Punisher, so it should stick to tanks that are going to lose no efficiency if there's no infantry to shoot on turn one when they activate.
It might not be great on the Manticore, if the Manticore is out of LoS, though, but that's based on the amount of terrain there is on the board in individual metas.
Holy crap, I can't believe Tank Commanders don't get HKs. I never noticed. That just seems petty. I think you can do fine putting HKs on anti infantry tanks, though. Remember, you can just split fire. The old "box art" pattern Russ with Battle Cannon, Hull Lascannon, and Heavy Bolter sponsors, with a Storm Bolter/Stubber and Hunter Killer Missile might be a decent choice if youre taking the LR at all. You can put Lascannon and HK into armor, heavy bolters and Storm Bolter into infantry, and Battle Cannon into whatever is most important.
2017/06/17 13:20:18
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Power levels are actually pretty accurate. My friend and I both made 50 power level lists with whatever upgrades we wanted. We assumed 50 power level was roughly 1000 points and sure enough, after we totaled up points including upgrades, his 50 PL list was exactly 1000 points while mine was 1100. That's pretty impressive for how easy PLs make things. We had a very balanced game after.
2017/06/17 17:52:43
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Doctoralex wrote: So has anyone done the Math hammer on when you want to use the order for re-roll 1's to wound instead of reroll one's to hit?
I can't see any use for it...
Sure there are uses for it. Some characters such as Harker allow you to reroll 1's without using an order. You could then use the order to allow wound rerolls of 1's to help ensure the enemy unit is destroyed.
2017/06/17 18:16:42
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
When you get your 50 conscripts within rapid fire range of an enemy vehicle.
Quuck math
100 shots, 33 hit, 5 wound normally(1 damage). 5 also get rerolls to wound; which would add about another wound.
But really it is better with heavy weapons teams, or plasma spam. Anything with a high rate of fire and around a 4+ or worse to hit.
The math is the same either way.
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
2017/06/17 18:55:59
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Hmm, well one factor (though one that won't show up much for IG) is when one of those rolls is on 2+.
Nearly all of our sources of re-rolls have been turned into "re-roll 1s", but on a 2+ roll, re-rolling 1s and full re-rolls are the same thing.
In general, the lower your target number the larger effect re-rolling 1s has. Because 1s will make up a larger share of your fails, and fewer of those re-rolls will fail again. So I'd say re-roll whichever one has the lower target number, and try to get through the other one with volume of dice.
Hmm, I suppose I can try to roughly math out the effect.
Glossary of terms:
"Hit": the roll succeeds on the first try
"Miss": the roll fails the first attempt
"Salvaged": the roll succeeds on the second attempt
6+: 1/6 hit, 5/6 miss, 1/5 re-roll, 1/6 salvaged. 1/6+(5/6*1/5*1/6)=7/36 succeed. Almost no improvement, only 1/36 better.
5+: 2/6 hit, 4/6 miss, 1/4 re-roll, 2/6 salvaged. 2/6+(4/6*1/4*2/6)= 7/18 succeed Twice as good as above with a 1/18 improvement, but double of microscopic is still tiny.
4+: 3/6 hit, 3/6 miss, 1/3 re-roll, 3/6 salvaged. 3/6+(3/6*1/3*3/6)=7/12 succeed. A 1/12 improvement, might almost be worth it on non-lasguns.
3+: 4/6 hit, 2/6 miss, 1/2 re-roll, 4/6 salvaged. 4/6+(2/6*1/2*4/6)=7/9 succeed. 3+ is pretty worth it with a 1/9 improvement, and is probably going to be the most common target of these orders. So if one of your rolls is 3+ and it's not a lasgun, put re-rolls on the 3+.
2+: 5/6 hit, 1/6 miss, all re-roll, 5/6 salvaged. 5/6+(1/6*1*5/6)=35/36 succeed. Suddenly, it turns into full re-rolls because all your misses are 1s. Looking at you, Pask.
This also means that if you have a mix of full re-rolls and re-roll 1s available, put the re-roll 1s on the best rolls first because they'll squeeze the most benefit out of it, and put the full re-rolls on the worse odds so you can re-roll the whole bucket full of misses.
Of course, there's an exception for Plasma. Always re-roll hits for plasma no matter what kind of re-roll it is, because that's not about hitting, that's about preventing Gets Hot. Also, never put re-rolls on lasguns. FRFSRF is strictly better in every situation.
Additional edit:
Also, if both rolls are equal, re-rolling to hit is preferred. More dice roll to hit than to wound (for obvious reasons, your dice count can only go down as you go through the filters), and more dice rolling means more dice to re-roll.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/17 19:08:33
2017/06/17 19:22:23
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
With the designer commentary indicating that -1 to hit (from moving, for example) means you overheat on a 1 or 2 with plasma, will anyone be taking plasmaspam Russes, or is this enough to push you towards other options? Or is the non-overcharged still good enough?
2017/06/17 19:30:48
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
SuspiciousSucculent wrote: With the designer commentary indicating that -1 to hit (from moving, for example) means you overheat on a 1 or 2 with plasma, will anyone be taking plasmaspam Russes, or is this enough to push you towards other options? Or is the non-overcharged still good enough?
The Plasmacutioner was kind of the high point in terms of firepower for the new Russ. It's a very large nerf.
2017/06/17 19:33:56
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
I definitely wouldn't want to fire a plasmacutioner after moving. Even with emergency vents preventing instant death, 6 wounds in incredibly painful on a 12 wound model. A 1/3 chance of that is not something I would want to bet on, especially since the Russ doesn't have any way to re-roll 2s anymore!
Man, if nothing else from Divination comes back, I hope our codex at least brings back the ability for primaris psykers to grant full re-rolls to hit. That was my favorite spell by far.
2017/06/17 19:42:18
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
I think that people need to consider using the basic plasma fire mode more. By making the overcharge punishing it really is a risk to use. If people are using the overcharge all of the time, then it really is a badly designed unit that doesn't force you to make a hard choice.
broxus wrote: Looks like the day one IG nerfs have been debunked. Guess you can't trust fourth hand information.
Just because it is not happening day one doesn't really debunk it. If it happens in a week, the rumour is still good even if not 100%. Not that I am arguing it is true, just that you need to be open to the possibility.
So, excepted for the punisher, LR are terrible, especially the LRBT ?
I have an armored battle group awaiting its first 8th ed fight, so any advice about 8th ed LR would help !
SuspiciousSucculent wrote: With the designer commentary indicating that -1 to hit (from moving, for example) means you overheat on a 1 or 2 with plasma, will anyone be taking plasmaspam Russes, or is this enough to push you towards other options? Or is the non-overcharged still good enough?
So this would mean that your Russ, being ordered to re-rolls 1s, would re-roll 2s and 1s if you had moved?
2017/06/17 23:48:03
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
SuspiciousSucculent wrote: With the designer commentary indicating that -1 to hit (from moving, for example) means you overheat on a 1 or 2 with plasma, will anyone be taking plasmaspam Russes, or is this enough to push you towards other options? Or is the non-overcharged still good enough?
So this would mean that your Russ, being ordered to re-rolls 1s, would re-roll 2s and 1s if you had moved?
I don't think so, as you apply re-rolls before modifiers.
2017/06/18 00:23:28
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
SuspiciousSucculent wrote: With the designer commentary indicating that -1 to hit (from moving, for example) means you overheat on a 1 or 2 with plasma, will anyone be taking plasmaspam Russes, or is this enough to push you towards other options? Or is the non-overcharged still good enough?
So this would mean that your Russ, being ordered to re-rolls 1s, would re-roll 2s and 1s if you had moved?
I don't think so, as you apply re-rolls before modifiers.
You're right I hadn't read the FAQ yet.
2017/06/18 00:51:25
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Enemy List:
10x Tac Marines, Plasmagun, Lascannon
6x Tac Marines, Missile Launcher
3x Bikers, I forgot what their upgrades were, and it didn't matter
1x Company Captain
The board: We had a big chaos fortress on my opponents side, a contiguous wall that basically spanned his entire deployment region, and a Wall of Martyrs line anchored by Imperial Bastions on mine. It was pretty cool. Smack in the middle of the Chaos fortress, between two watchtowers, was a gate that in the open position. In between the lines was a big field of craters.
I set up around one of the Bastions, using it as cover for the tanks. He sets up his big squad on the battlements of the fortress, small squad behind the wall, and bikes in the open gate. The Captain is hiding behind the small Tactical team.
I went first because I had fewer drops. Straightforward that way, he didn't seize.
IG1: Tanks advance a bit into Multimelta range. Pask rolls crap on the Battle Cannon, but between the Multimeltas, Lascannon, and the 1 Battle Cannon shot I did make, I erase the bikes. They fail their saves and cease to exist.Punisher opens up on the Tac Squad with Lascannon and Plasmagun, who are hiding on the battlements for a 2+, and kills 3. Stormies stay in reserve.
SM1: Shoot at Pask with the Lascannon. No effect. Small tac squad moves into the open gate of the big chaos fortress. Shoot at Pask with the missile launcher, causes 3 wounds.
IG2: I drop in the scions to assassinate his Warlord, but have no effect. The Pask takes a chunk out of the little squad, and the Punisher dramatically overkills what's left of it. I should have fired the gatling cannon at the guys on the battlements and let battleshock finish the guys in the gate, but no loss, no foul.
SM2: The Tac squad climbs down from the battlements. The Captain charges the Scions, flubs and kills 2.
IG3: As the remaining tac squad is hiding out of LoS behind the battlements, I'll have to go through the gate, the only way onto his side of the board, with my tanks, so they move up to midfield. The scions fall back, and the Captain, who is the only visible model, gets turned into bloody giblets by Pask and his Battle Cannon.
SM3: His remaining tac guys execute my stormtroopers.
IG4: Tanks move into the gate.
SM4: Marines climb back up onto the battlements, then fire and overcharge their plasmagun, taking a huge chunk out of Pask, dropping him to 3 wounds. I burn a command point to re-roll his save, but it doesn't do anything.
IG5: Tanks move to get a better line of fire. I burn a CP to re-roll the number of Battle Cannon shots, and do okay, killing one. The Punisher rips up even more of them, and there's 2 of them left. He passes battleshock though.
SM5: He fires his last Lascannon and Plasmagun on overcharge, and kills Pask's tank.
IG6: Punisher tank kills remaining Space Marines.
IG Victory.
Debrief: Punisher was less effective than I liked, and he messed up by not charging my tanks when they came through the gate. Hitting on 5's with the Punisher's secondaries was nasty, though. Stormies were useless.
Second Game, vs. Orks
Spoiler:
Enemy List
30x Boyz, 3x Big Shootas.
1x Wierdboy
1x Warboss
1x Painboy
1x Bubblechucka
5x Tankbustaz
I ended up assigned to the same table, so it looks about the same. The deployment pattern changed to having the rectangles at diagonal to each other, and we moved around the bastions, trench, and giant chaos fortress pieces [it was made out of like 4 sections of curtain wall, 2 tall watchtowers, 2 gates, and another section of big section of wall with an angle in it and a staircase on the back. It was so damn massive, I wish I had a Manticore and Wyvern so badly.], but it was pretty much the same sort of thing. We made a second hole in the chaos fortress wall, because that thing was obnoxiously big and the one gate was annoying.
Again, I set up clustered behind a Bastion, and set up my Stormtroopers on the Bastion parapet to shield the tanks from "Da Jump". He put his tankbustaz and bubblechucka on the battlements, and hid the rest of his big mob out of LoS behind the Chaos curtain wall.
I went first again:
IG1: Pask shoots the Bubblechucka, rolls crap on the Battle Cannon, I burn a CP and still get a 2. He kills 2 grots manning the gun. Punisher annihilates the Tankbustaz entirely with the gatling gun. Again, I should have targeted something else with the Heavy Bolters.
Orks1: Da-Jump happens, bringing the big mob in front of my tanks. He shoots the tanks with the Bubblechucka, and manages 2 wounds on Pask. He charges the Punisher with his big mob, fails the charge, re-rolls, and still fails. He loses 5 guys to my total overwatch. The Wierdboy charges, takes 2 wounds from overwatch, and then whiffs at the tank.
IG2: Punisher falls back. Stormies kill the Wierdboy. Pask rolls crap on the Battle Cannon again, and I burn a CP to get a 4. He kills a few Boyz.
Orks2: The boyz kill 3 Stormies, and the remaining 2 are removed by battleshock. They fail a 7" charge to get to Pask, spend a CP to re-roll, and still fail. Warboss and his attendant come out of the gate on the Chaos fortress. Bubblechucka fails to do anything.
IG3: Punisher, feeling better, erases the orkz. When it didn't move, and wasn't hitting on 5's with the Heavy Bolters and Storm Bolter, it was absolutely terrifying. It killed so many of them, and dropped the squad to a half-dozen models. Pask splits fire, using his Storm Bolter and Multimeltas on the Boyz and his Lascannon and Battle Cannon on the Mek Gun. The Boys are dropped to 3 models, and the Mek gun loses a single grot, because the Battle Cannon rolls crappy again. Boyz fail battleshock and are wiped.
Orks3: Mek Gun rolls well, sticks a hard hit on the Punisher because Pask is out of LoS behind the Bastion, but that's it.
Orks concede, IG Victory.
Debrief: Punisher was amazing. It shredded the orks. Pask's battle cannon was less so. Stormies were slightly less useless, but still useless.
More on Tanks, from the battle going on next to me during the second round of matches, IG vs. Deathwatch
Spoiler:
I wasn't paying particularly close attention, but the IG player's list looked somewhat similar to mine. He had a Pask Vanquisher with all the trappings, some Stormtroopers, and some rough riders. The Deathwatch guy had a Razorback, a Dreadnought, and the guys in the Razorback.
Their board didn't have a giant goddamn wall across it blocking Line of Sight, and was instead populated by promethium pipes and tall, but very thin, towers with decks at the top.
The IG guy seized the initiative and cracked open the razorback on turn 1. The Stormies annihilated the guys who got out.
The Deathwatch Dreadnought went after the Rough Riders, and the Watch Captain went after the stormies. The rough riders got their ass handed to them
There was a bit of melee through turn 2, but nothing much
Pask demolished the Dreadnought on turn 3, when it got out of combat with the rough riders.
The Deathwatch conceded.
One more, from the table next to me, in the first round of matches, on transports. Orks vs. Black Templar
Spoiler:
The Ork list had Ghazskull, a big mob of boyz, and some Lootaz. The BT had Helbrecht and a squad inside a Rhino, and a Dreadnought.
The BT went first, and rushed the Rhino up the board at all-ahead full.
The Orks ran up and charged the Rhino, completely surrounding it. They exploded it right there with a metric crap-ton of dice, and a big argument ensued about what happened to the guys inside it. In the end, only Helbrecht and one of his buddies survived, because the Orks were surrounding it so thoroughly. The Lootas took a chunk off the Dreadnought.
The Dready ran in to save Helbrecht, and the two killed some Orks. Ghazskull ripped the Dready apart, then, Ghazskull ripped Helbrecht apart, and that was game.
Moral of the story: Circle up your wagons!
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2017/06/18 03:01:01
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
So it looks like the punisher is overall not a bad choice, and that IG appear to be fairly powerful?
I'm playing at least a game tomorrow. Maybe two if time allows. Opponents wanted to do 50 power. I'd prefer points, but I'm willing to give it a shot at least once. I ran the numbers and my candidate list is 50 power and exactly 1000 points, so that's something.
List:
Spoiler:
Priest (Eviscerator)
Commissar (power fist, BP)
Company Commander
Infantry Squad (plasmagun, power sword)
Infantry Squad (plasmagun, power sword)
Priest (Eviscerator)
Commissar (power fist, BP)
Company Commander
Infantry Squad (plasmagun, power sword)
Infantry Squad (plasmagun, power sword)
Heavy Weapon Squad (3x LC)
Heavy Weapon Squad (3x LC)
5 Scions (2x plasma)
5 Scions (2x plasma)
Tempestor Prime (Plasma Pistol)
1 Basilisk
Master of Ordnance
Of course, since it's power, I'm probably going to go back and add every single upgrade to each unit that I can, whether I think it will be useful or not, because why not?
Of course, since it's power, I'm probably going to go back and add every single upgrade to each unit that I can, whether I think it will be useful or not, because why not?
Because at that point you're intentionally breaking the power level 'system,' especially with an army like guard that strains it in the first place.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2017/06/18 03:23:57
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Yeah, I dunno. Incidentally, if I was doing this with randos or something, I'd be inclined to agree with you on it. The guys I'm playing with though are the guys I started this silly business with years ago. We've not actually discussed the matter, but I'm willing to bet, given some 15 years of knowing the fellows and some 7-8 years of playing this game, that they're probably doing the same thing.
Iffy on it, honestly. The HWTs have 'kill us, we're squishy' painted on them, and the basilisk is the _only_ thing worth firing AT weapons at, which is bad, because it isn't built to take sustained fire.
At that point, beyond waiting for the scions to show up, the enemy has little to do but swat infantry. Against a monster/vehicle heavy army (or even just 2-3), it becomes impotent very quickly.
I'd say it will struggle a fair bit against MEQs- there just isn't enough output, or enough wounds to hold out.
The priests just confuse me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/18 03:38:32
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2017/06/18 03:48:58
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Yeah, my main recommendations would be to ditch the priests and power swords. One power sword does not a melee unit make, and the priest's +1 attack buff isn't that strong on a 10-man unit. You can use the 6PL for the priests to get two more infantry squads, which bring much more useful dakka to the table.
Then you can get rid of the HWS. Your infantry squads (if you take the advice about the priests) will have 6 heavy open heavy weapon slots. How convenient, you can put the lascannons in there. Now they're actually somewhat hard to kill, and you can split-fire them with ease. To sweeten the deal, because you're using power levels, those 6 lascannons will be free!
Which means you'll have some left-over PL you can spend on whatever you want.
2017/06/18 03:50:00
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Well, I mean, it's 1000 points, basically. There's not going to be a lot of the enemy to swat me with to begin with. I haven't looked very hard at Xenos yet, so I'm honestly not sure how many monsters can be brought at this point level, but I'm going to guess they're priced similar to vehicles. Maybe that's a bad move on my part.
I do not think the HWS will be so squishy, but I guess we'll see. Perhaps I'll swap them out for another Basilisk or something. Far as that goes, the plan is to try to get it out of LOS. Shouldn't be too hard with maybe some ruins on the table or something like that.
The preists are there for the same reason that the power weapons are. I'm trying a 5th ed style power blob. The CC keeps his own two squads ordered, the priest gives them extra attacks and lends a hand on the big stuff, and the commissar keeps them in the fight. They FRFSRF as they're moving up, and then charge in to do cleanup. A full squad kills an average of 4.5 MEQ in melee, so they're surprisingly not horrible at it, at least, for cleanup purposes.
Of course, since it's power, I'm probably going to go back and add every single upgrade to each unit that I can, whether I think it will be useful or not, because why not?
Because at that point you're intentionally breaking the power level 'system,' especially with an army like guard that strains it in the first place.
I'd argue that's exactly what the power level system is for, to allow people to finally take all those upgrades. If you're worried about stuff being OP or dislike the idea of someone taking all those upgrades you should just use points.
2017/06/18 03:58:49
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
broxus wrote: Looks like the day one IG nerfs have been debunked. Guess you can't trust fourth hand information.
Just because it is not happening day one doesn't really debunk it. If it happens in a week, the rumour is still good even if not 100%. Not that I am arguing it is true, just that you need to be open to the possibility.
Yes the rumor was a day one nerf because they were so "broken."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/18 04:00:37
2017/06/18 04:01:10
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Of course, since it's power, I'm probably going to go back and add every single upgrade to each unit that I can, whether I think it will be useful or not, because why not?
Because at that point you're intentionally breaking the power level 'system,' especially with an army like guard that strains it in the first place.
I'd argue that's exactly what the power level system is for, to allow people to finally take all those upgrades. If you're worried about stuff being OP or dislike the idea of someone taking all those upgrades you should just use points.
Uh, no. It specifically isn't. The designers have mentioned multiple times that power levels are set based on taking a median level of the available upgrades, and why it's the default assumption for _Narrative_ games.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2017/06/18 04:37:07
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
broxus wrote: Looks like the day one IG nerfs have been debunked. Guess you can't trust fourth hand information.
Just because it is not happening day one doesn't really debunk it. If it happens in a week, the rumour is still good even if not 100%. Not that I am arguing it is true, just that you need to be open to the possibility.
Yes the rumor was a day one nerf because they were so "broken."
I ran Pask with a Battle Cannon, Lascannon, and 2x Multimelta to crack tanks. I didn't end up facing any tanks that needed cracking, but he got good use against space marines.
Another guy ran Pask Vanquisher with Lascannons and 2x Multimelta, to similarly lethal effect. It's worth mention that Pask with a Battle Cannon has approximately equal antitank power to Pask with a Vanquisher cannon. I wasn't impressed with the Battle Cannon, though, since I had to keep burning CP to keep it operating.
I have a bunch of plots scattered around showing the probability distributions, which I think are more valuable than the averages.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/18 04:39:00
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
