Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup

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**Vaktathi**

Didn't get to play a game myself of 8E yet but have gotten to watch a couple. Thus far my impression of Russ tanks is unchanged, they appear to be woefully unimpressive, though artillery tanks (well, manticores and wyvers) hiding in corners with a Master of Ordnance work wonders, and conscript blobs work wonderfully as noticed by many. Definitely feels like an infantry dominated game, but an army without some high T stuff is still going to get shot off the board in short order we've found thus far.

**MrMoustaffa**

I'll be honest after getting a game of 8th in finally, I'd absolutely still pay for conscripts at 4pts per model IF they kept them absolutely the same in every other regard. This means

1. They're a normal troop unit, I.E. I can take three units of 50 men as 3 troop slots without the platoon "tax"

2. They can keep their unit size at 50 men

3. They can still get orders

I think it would be balanced as insane as that sounds and they would still be an excellent unit in the codex. They have a job, they die so your actually competent guardsmen may live, form a somewhat spikey meatshield for enemy assault units, and vomit out an intimidating amount of dice whenever something gets too close. They lack offensive killing power, but it is more than made up for by their objective taking utility, screening abilites, overwatch walls, and just tying up things that you don't want to deal with that turn. If they are going to stay at 3pts per model, then IG really does need platoons to come back, both for IG players and their opponent's sake. IG has no other way to form a screening "blob" so concripts are incredibly important to any infantry line. I personally believe that 30 is the optimal unit size, even in 8th, due to just how unwieldy a 50 man unit on a proper table is, but I don't blame people for wanting to try the maximum unit size. If you have the proper amount of terrain you'll notice that a lot of the time many models just straight up cannot get a shot or you have an odd split on rapid fire range or charges. You definitely will almost never see all conscripts swing in a single combat, that's for sure.

One thing that I had not anticipated at all is just how much IG will actually get their armor saves now, especially in the open. I had guys in the open getting wailed on by stormbolters and flamers and still passing armor saves. Yes, you're only passing on 5 or 6, but when you have 150+ guardsmen in your list that adds up far more quickly than you think. Especially on conscripts. Most enemy anti horde that they will be firing will be things like bolters, shootas, lasguns, etc. When you're saving a 1/3rd of these wounds on average, that's a big improvement from 7th. By turn 4 against a pretty scary looking GK list (I have no idea if it was optimal, but man there were a ton of stormbolters) I still had probably 70% of my army alive. That's unheard of for 7th as an infantry player.

Other than that in no particular order

Spoiler:

Vets and stormtroopers hit like a truck

Harker is excellent now if you have Catachans as he essentially gives you reroll 1's for shooting and wounding if you use orders. I would heartily recommend running him with veteran units and a commander if you're still doing mechanized guard stuff or want something to lurk in your backline to deal with a breakthrough.

Plasma + Take Aim = Profit. Seriously, it's a match made in heaven. Plasma is a reliable source of wounds since it always does 2 on high power and S8 is a big jump. I was pairing them with autocannons but weirdly enough I'm starting to think they would match up better with missile launchers. Once I get my missile launcher teams based I'll try it out.

Autocannons are exactly what they should be, jack of all trades, masters of none. They're pretty ok across the board but I felt like they covered my bases and while my opponent wasn't actively going out of his way to kill them that was only because there was so much friggin plasma on the board. Lascannons hit like a truck, no surprise there. After what I've seen I think an honest argument would be made to taking a healthy mix of all the heavy weapons in our armory, or at least most of them. Heavy bolters are the only one I'm iffy on and that's because I just have so many lasguns.

Transports actually seemed useful to me. They do not play like any previous edition, so you may as well just forget about comparing them now. They're a fairly tough battle taxi system to get from point A to point B. I shoved Harker, a company commander with a plasma pistol, and a vet squad kitted out with plasma/heavy flamer into a chimera and had a squad of meltas/heavy flamer in a taurox next to them and they definitely drew attention as a threat. The opponent had to decide whether he wanted to stop them on my side of the board or risk them getting into his backline and setting up on an objective. He proceeded to come to me, I piled out and killed him, and then had the freedom to hop back in if I had needed to.

Executioner was eh, it didn't do much, but I never overcharged it. It took a lot of hits though, worked well as a wall for blocking line of sight to important characters, and in general was more of a defensive brick that guarded a flank. It took a long time to chew through and believe it or not bought me the time I needed to stabilize my right flank. It didn't do a ton of damage but the grey knight player had to decide to either kill it or go around and neither was really a great choice.

IG will survive by target saturation now mthey more than ever. Yes, heavy weapon squads are super efficient but you are going to need a LOT of them if you want to seriously commit to bringing them. There are a lot of two damage weapons out there and if you don't seriously saturate your back line with them they will go down hard. I didn't use them this first game but I can already see what might have happened.

In an unrelated note, I think mortar teams have an excellent secondary purpose that nobody has mentioned yet, as a deepstrike/flanking denial unit. As you are an infantry guard player and should be moving up, you will inevitably leave gaps to the rear that the enemy can drop down into your deployment. By spreading out your mortar squads across your deployment zone and out of sight, they'll give you additional time to move up without worrying about your rear being threatened. In addition, regular infantry squads of 10 men worked well for this purpose too. They're so cheap even with upgrades that it's no big loss to set up a squad or two on the flanks just deny deepstrikers.

That's my main revelations from my very first game as an infantry player. I brought literally a bit of everything as I was kind of surprised on the spot by a GK player wanting to play a game twice the size I had mentally prepared for, so take that to mind when reading all this.

I fully expect some of my opinions on this stuff to change after a few more games. I don't have a competitive meta in the slightest but I can still get a good idea of what will and what won't work at least.

**NivlacSupreme**

JConscripts would probably be regarded like this in 7th as well if not for the fact that you had to bring 25 Guardsmen just to get a squad.

**broxus**

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
broxus wrote:
So I'm curious with Pask which LRBT is the best?

I am considering the following variants.

Battlecannon, Lascannon, 2x (not sure what)
Vanquisher turret, Lascannon, 2x meltas
Executioner plasma turret, Lascannon, 2x plasma cannons
Punisher turret, Lascannon, 2x heavy bolters
Some other variant.

The Lascannon seems to be an always include since hitting one 2+ with rerolls is a massive advantage to killing tanks.

Anyone want to crunch this numbers before I buy and build the model please.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Trickstick wrote:
broxus wrote:
Looks like the day one IG nerfs have been debunked. Guess you can't trust fourth hand information.

Just because it is not happening day one doesn't really debunk it. If it happens in a week, the rumour is still good even if not 100%. Not that I am arguing it is true, just that you need to be open to the possibility.

Yes the rumor was a day one nerf because they were so "broken."

I ran Pask with a Battle Cannon, Lascannon, and 2x Multimelta to crack tanks. I didn't end up facing any tanks that needed cracking, but he got good use against space marines.

Another guy ran Pask Vanquisher with Lascannons and 2x Multimelta, to similarly lethal effect. It's worth mention that Pask with a Battle Cannon has approximately equal antitank power to Pask with a Vanquisher cannon. I wasn't impressed with the Battle Cannon, though, since I had to keep burning CP to keep it operating.

I have a bunch of plots scattered around showing the probability distributions, which I think are more valuable than the averages.

Thanks, it is a hard choice for sure. Though if it shows that a battle cannon is the same as a vanquisher in terms of damage that makes the BC a clear winner for me. The main reason is that since the BC is multiple hits it can hurt diffrent targets if needed in different roles and then switch to an anti tank role. I keep thinking the punisher would be very nasty but hate that 24" range.

**Aenarian**

MrMoustaffa wrote:
I'll be honest after getting a game of 8th in finally, I'd absolutely still pay for conscripts at 4pts per model IF they kept them absolutely the same in every other regard.

I believe that's just wishful thinking. They will definitely increase the cost, reduce their stats, make them unable to benefit from auras and finally remove them from the codex. At least according to what I've heard.

I wish it was the 23rd so the Forge World-index was released, and we could actually see how our options there stack up. Considering that my present anti-tank basically consists of 5 Rapier Laser Destroyers, Leman Russ Vanquishers and Heavy Artillery, making a functional army right now is difficult.

**DoomMouse**

I would also pay for 4pt conscripts. 150 models for 600pts sounds pretty reasonable to me!

On an unrelated note, I think that they made a similar mistake with brimstone horrors this edition. They're only T1, but have a 4+ invulnerable and have the potential to deal mortal wounds for 2pts per model. Daemon players can currently plonk down 250 of them and still have 1500pts to play with in a 2000pt game. I know they don't do much offensively, but even IG would struggle to kill them!

**Punisher23**

Anyone have an opinion on bullgryns and whether the bruteshield or slabshield is better? Going for the mauls and trying to decide now that you can mix and match!

**Galas**

Punisher23 wrote:
Anyone have an opinion on bullgryns and whether the bruteshield or slabshield is better? Going for the mauls and trying to decide now that you can mix and match!

I can't decide in this too

The better save or the invulnerable? I think I'm gonna decide for the Invulnerable. Bullgrynns are pretty big and scary, so the enemy will try to focus is heavy fire in them to bring them down.
But at the same time, if you use them in a heavy tank list, probably the better save is more worth it, because the heavy AP weapons of your opponent will be focusing the tanks.

**Punisher23**

Galas wrote:
Punisher23 wrote:
Anyone have an opinion on bullgryns and whether the bruteshield or slabshield is better? Going for the mauls and trying to decide now that you can mix and match!

I can't decide in this too
The better save or the invulnerable? I think I'm gonna decide for the Invulnerable. Bullgrynns are pretty big and scary, so the enemy will try to focus is heavy fire in them to bring them down.
But at the same time, if you use them in a heavy tank list, probably the better save is more worth it, because the heavy AP weapons of your opponent will be focusing the tanks.

Definirely looks to be a magnet job. Probably depends on the size of the game as well, smaller battle means they'll dfinitely be the biggest targets.

**Trickstick**

Galas wrote:
Punisher23 wrote:
Anyone have an opinion on bullgryns and whether the bruteshield or slabshield is better? Going for the mauls and trying to decide now that you can mix and match!

I can't decide in this too
The better save or the invulnerable? I think I'm gonna decide for the Invulnerable. Bullgrynns are pretty big and scary, so the enemy will try to focus is heavy fire in them to bring them down.
But at the same time, if you use them in a heavy tank list, probably the better save is more worth it, because the heavy AP weapons of your opponent will be focusing the tanks.

You mix the shields. Take mostly slab shields for the 2+ and then a few brute shields to tank lascannons and stuff. You do have to worry about the "allocate to already wounded models" thing but it isn't that much of a problem.

**Colonel Cross**

I had a mixture of them in a unit and that seemed to work out pretty well for me. I had never used them before and they hit HARD.

**Inquisitor Lord Katherine**

broxus wrote:

Thanks, it is a hard choice for sure. Though if it shows that a battle cannon is the same as a vanquisher in terms of damage that makes the BC a clear winner for me. The main reason is that since the BC is multiple hits it can hurt diffrent targets if needed in different roles and then switch to an anti tank role. I keep thinking the punisher would be very nasty but hate that 24" range.

Here, I'll re-post the chart I made for Pask on the Battle Tank, Vanquisher, and Demolisher:

I'll run the numbers for Pask and ordinary TC's on other tanks.

Anyone want to take a crack at what the Conqueror Cannon's stats will be? It was S7, AP4, but it looks like it was FAQ'ed in IA1:2e to be Str.8, AP3, Small Blast. I'm guess Heavy D3, Str: 8, AP: -2, D: D3

**Trickstick**

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I'll run the numbers for Pask and ordinary TC's on other tanks.

Could you add the possibility of a str 9 vanquisher into that? Could be a possible errata with the str9 gsc vanquisher, although I doubt it.

**Inquisitor Lord Katherine**

Trickstick wrote:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I'll run the numbers for Pask and ordinary TC's on other tanks.

Could you add the possibility of a str 9 vanquisher into that? Could be a possible errata with the str9 gsc vanquisher, although I doubt it.

For sure.

**MinscS2**

Punisher23 wrote:
Anyone have an opinion on bullgryns and whether the bruteshield or slabshield is better? Going for the mauls and trying to decide now that you can mix and match!

Slabshields are better against AP- and AP-1.
They're equal against AP-2.
Bruteshields are better against AP-3 and AP-4

Add a coversave and Slabshields are better or equal against everything except AP-4. (Which are quite rare and often short-ranged.)

Mixing might be a good choice, but if it's one or the other I'd go with Slabshields. I also think they look better.

**Otto von Bludd**

I was able to play a game , 50PL

My list included

Pask in LRBT with lascannon and plasma
Creed
Commissar (PF)
Infantry Squad x 3 (ML, PG, PP)
Scount Sent x 3 (HF, HKM, Chainblades)
Rough Riders (PP / PS on sarge)
Ratlings x 5
Manticore

It was a team game, 50PL each vs 2 knights and Imperial fists.

Observations:

Knights are very scary and me and my teammate spent most of our time trapped in our deployment zone fighting off turn 1 deep striking/charging assault terminators with Lysander as well as the 2 knights, which are upon you almost instantly. We got 1 turn of shooting off which left 1 knight below 50% and 1 unscathed. We had to go second, which is seriously bad, and so were unable to shoot at the terminators before they got stuck in turn 1.

I'm pretty sure, as others have said, range isn't very important now; assault units are on you almost instantly. The infantry squads did great and I think Plasma pistol / gun will be my default load out for them now, though a meltagun would have helped a lot vs the knights. Fall back + Get back in the fight is a life saver. But there is a huge problem. You are trapped in your deployment zone and the objectives are not trapped there with you. Chimeras with HFx2 would have been amazing this game and I really missed them.

Speaking of Heavy Flamers, the Scout sentinels were MVPs. They torched an approaching knight taking 4! wounds off it, then another 4-5 on it on over watch when it charged. They put it below a damage threshold and as a result the knight whiffed all his attacks against them. They disengaged and ran off to torch a midfield tactical squad on an objective, killing 4/5 marines in 1 go. The remaining marine and chaplain were stuck unable to charge them and face the withering overwatch, but unable to outrun them and escape the flames. The game ended before they could take the objective.

Pask was decent but I will never take plasma sponsons on him again. The temptation to overcharge them because you can re-roll ones is too great. I rolled 6 shots on 2D3 to fire them overcharged and rolled 2 1s in a row after the re-roll. Instantly crippled him. He did a ton of damage to the second knight though, killing it before the game ended. The LR is very resilient, it lasted the whole game due to the infantry screen.

Ratlings whiffed all their shots, Rough Riders flanked and failed their charge even after CP re-roll and spent the game bogged down in melee with a tac squad, but they did well not having gotten a charge off.

Conclusion: Take lots of heavy flamers because assault units are going to be all over you anyway.

**drunken0elf**

I played my first 8th game today with IG.

LRBT were just garbage. Hard to kill garbage but still garbage. Their shooting was very lackluster.

The basilisk seemed not much better. I didn't have big cover to hide it so It didn't get to shoot much.

Chimeras are meh. I can see 1 or 2 being usefull but not more as they are expensive and if you move you're bound to miss everything.

Armoured sentinels didn't get many shooting options nor did thry kill much but were unharmed by regular troops and walked to and kept an objective all game. So they performed alright for their cheap cost.

Guardsman squad are now extra wounds for a heavy weapon i guess. Park em somewhere and shoot rockets or lascanon shots at stuff.

I didn't use HWT or manticores but would switch the 2 leman russ i used and the basilisk for them anyday.

Definatly need to try scions next time.

Thats my 1st game experience.

**master of ordinance**

Wait, you can turn 1 assault now?

**Trickstick**

master of ordinance wrote:
Wait, you can turn 1 assault now?

Yeah, no restriction against it.

**Inquisitor Lord Katherine**

With regards to Pask:

Here's Pask's CCDF's [Chance to inflict at least X wounds] on different varieties of Leman Russ, targeting a hypothetical Rhino or Predator:

At the 6-wound mark [and beyond], the Demolisher, Annihilator, and overcharged Executioner cannon run about equal. This is logical, since they all have about the same profile.

The Battle Tank and Vanquisher, come in second. While the Battle Tank has a similar damage profile to the Demolisher, Annihilator, and Executioner, the loss of AP hurts it. The Vanquisher simply has half the number of shots as the three other tanks, and while the re-roll on damage does edge it up a bit, a re-roll isn't nearly worth an extra shot.

We can reasonably set our target mark for our main gun in the antitank capacity in the region of 4-6 wounds. This is basically how many wounds it has to deal so that it and it's secondary weapons can cripple or crack a transport on turn 1.

I'll prepare charts for a Leman-Russ equivalent target.

I don't think we need to be concerned about Pask's anti-infantry performance, the winner is incredibly clear.

**Trickstick**

I spent longer than I would care to admit looking for the second vanquisher line. It's hot here and my brain is slow!

I'm actually liking the look of the demolisher here. Similar AT power to an annihilator yet larger AP fire due to blast. May have to give a fireball demolisher a go, although not with Pask.

**master of ordinance**

Trickstick wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
Wait, you can turn 1 assault now?

Yeah, no restriction against it.

I... Well.... That is just plain silly. There was a reason that they put the rule in in the first place you know, because gunline armies like IG would get hammered by certain things that could get really close really fast, and now, after years of power bloat and units being able to get in your face on turn one, they bring it back?
They do test play right?

**Voss**

It's not that big of a deal. Almost all forms of 'Deep Strike' involve being more than 9" away from any enemies, and every attempt at charging draws overwatch until the unit is engaged. If some really wants to show up on turn 1 and charge, they'll be praying to the dice gods a lot, and you get to shoot their models in the face every time they try.

For units in transports, it isn't a problem at all, as the unit has to get out before the transport moves.

Against most things, good deployment means they can't get inside your lines, and the outer edge is stuff you can afford to be attacked. If two units are 16" apart, none of the 'arrive on the battlefield' rules allow a model to drop in there.

About the only exception that comes to mind is the Deathleaper, who can turn up within 6" of its target, but more than 1" away from enemy models.
And genestealer cult stuff with lucky ambush rolls (5 or 6), though a primus gives a reroll.

**Trickstick**

Voss wrote:
It's not that big of a deal. Almost all forms of 'Deep Strike' involve being 9" away from any enemies, and every attempt at charging draws overwatch until the unit is engaged.

Unless you charge from outside line of sight, then you don't take overwatch. Should be easy to avoid but something to keep in mind.

**Inquisitor Lord Katherine**

More charts for Pask:

Again, these are showing your chances to inflict At Least X Wounds.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
One more thing on Pask:

Each level of TC gives shifts the Punisher's curve over by about 1.5 kills. Make of that what you will.

**Otto von Bludd**

Thanks for all the charts, they are very helpful. I think the LR Annihilator is going to be our premier AT platform. Unfortunately, as I found in my game vs the knights, Str 8 Battlecannons vs T 8 really struggles to reliably stick wounds. STR 8 simply doesn't cut it vs T8. That 4+ really hurts. It's a WORLD of difference when you hit STR 9 and unfortunately, we really lack that on our MBTs. Our artillery is great of course, but T7 is surprisingly vulnerable to things like Battlecannons. In my game my Manticore was crippled turn 1 by a knights RFBC, taking something like 7 damage, as I had nowhere to hide it out of LoS.

Edit: Looking again at your charts it looks like the Punisher is a good candidate for running a LR without a Tank Commander/Pask.

**MrMoustaffa**

master of ordinance wrote:
Trickstick wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
Wait, you can turn 1 assault now?

Yeah, no restriction against it.

I... Well.... That is just plain silly. There was a reason that they put the rule in in the first place you know, because gunline armies like IG would get hammered by certain things that could get really close really fast, and now, after years of power bloat and units being able to get in your face on turn one, they bring it back?
They do test play right?

We have an order that lets our guardsmen fall back for free and shoot their charger whenever we want that autosucceeds. Trust me, it balances out. We have so many cheap screening units that if you can't figure out how to stop a turn 1 charge on your important units you either have literally 0 infantry or you are really bad at this game.

**MinscS2**

MrMoustaffa wrote:

We have an order that lets our guardsmen fall back for free and shoot their charger whenever we want that autosucceeds. Trust me, it balances out. We have so many cheap screening units that if you can't figure out how to stop a turn 1 charge on your important units you either have literally 0 infantry or you are really bad at this game.

This.

You should have screening units for your important stuff (which isn't really hard to come by in a IG-force with out cheap infantry and conscript-squads), and since your opponent has to deploy more than 9" away from you, that's at least a 10" charge, so very unlikely to happen. Being able to deepstrike/infiltrate and charge for a 1st turn charge sounds scary if you're on the receiving end, but once you stop and think about it, it's not nearly as bad as it initially sounds.

**Aenarian**

MinscS2 wrote:
MrMoustaffa wrote:

We have an order that lets our guardsmen fall back for free and shoot their charger whenever we want that autosucceeds. Trust me, it balances out. We have so many cheap screening units that if you can't figure out how to stop a turn 1 charge on your important units you either have literally 0 infantry or you are really bad at this game.

This.

You should have screening units for your important stuff (which isn't really hard to come by in a IG-force with out cheap infantry and conscript-squads), and since your opponent has to deploy more than 9" away from you, that's at least a 10" charge, so very unlikely to happen. Being able to deepstrike/infiltrate and charge for a 1st turn charge sounds scary if you're on the receiving end, but once you stop and think about it, it's not nearly as bad as it initially sounds.

´

9" charge. You have to get within 1", so e.g. 9.1"-9" = 0.1", so within 1", while 9.1"-8." = 1.1", outside 1".

**MinscS2**

That's true, forgot about the 1" engagement area in 8th.

Still, a 9" charge is also unlikely to happen. It will happen on occasion ofcourse, but that's what your screening units are for.