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2019/01/24 02:43:19
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Your 1st point makes the least amount of sense because the Terminators were just as bad, if not worse, in 7th.
I'd heartily disagree, at their 33ppm cost in 7th they were clearly superior to Strikes, especially so with the way the AP system worked.
Even if they weren't, skewing your list isn't about taking all the most optimal choices all the time, its about spamming heaps of one thing, in this case 2+ saves. It made all of the enemies expensive AP3 weapons mostly useless.
2019/01/24 07:42:08
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Your 1st point makes the least amount of sense because the Terminators were just as bad, if not worse, in 7th.
I'd heartily disagree, at their 33ppm cost in 7th they were clearly superior to Strikes, especially so with the way the AP system worked.
Even if they weren't, skewing your list isn't about taking all the most optimal choices all the time, its about spamming heaps of one thing, in this case 2+ saves. It made all of the enemies expensive AP3 weapons mostly useless.
The way the AP system worked is that it almost always skipped from AP4 straight to AP2. The 5++ is unreliable, so there you go.
They were obviously one of the better Terminator variants, but let's not pretend they were good. At all.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/01/24 15:40:28
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Your 1st point makes the least amount of sense because the Terminators were just as bad, if not worse, in 7th.
GKT were superior to Strikers in 7th, and out performed Pallies. You are misremembering 7th.
I still play 7.5e via the new 30k rulebook, which almost identical to the 7e 40k rulebook. GKT are/were the best Troop choice for GK in 7th, the only PA worth taking are Interceptors. I still take 1 block of 10 Strikes with a Librarian for Deep Striking to clear objectives, but that’s because it’s a 8e unit I can still use in 7e, not because they out perform anything.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
2019/01/24 16:16:30
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Your 1st point makes the least amount of sense because the Terminators were just as bad, if not worse, in 7th.
GKT were superior to Strikers in 7th, and out performed Pallies. You are misremembering 7th.
I still play 7.5e via the new 30k rulebook, which almost identical to the 7e 40k rulebook. GKT are/were the best Troop choice for GK in 7th, the only PA worth taking are Interceptors. I still take 1 block of 10 Strikes with a Librarian for Deep Striking to clear objectives, but that’s because it’s a 8e unit I can still use in 7e, not because they out perform anything.
SJ
Paladins were strictly better because of the second wound for not much more, with anything S8 or ID being thrown onto a tanking character. Then there was better saturation of Psycannons and Apothecaries with the old 5+++.
Also the trick to Strikes was simply not taking any of the heavy weapons outside the flamer. That's better than almost 200 points for a single Psycannon and 4 Storm Bolters.
Like I said, just because they were one of the stronger Terminator variants doesn't mean they were any good. Paladins and Chaos Terminators were the only ones I would call usable in 6th/7th, with Chaos Terminators being maybe even considered good.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/01/24 16:24:58
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
You could almost take 2 GKT per Pallie, which netted almost twice the firepower and melee attacks for the same points. No one took Pallies in 7e, they costed too much and weren’t ObSec. 8e swapped the paradigm. You are misremembering 7e.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
2019/01/24 18:00:45
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
jeffersonian000 wrote: You could almost take 2 GKT per Pallie, which netted almost twice the firepower and melee attacks for the same points. No one took Pallies in 7e, they costed too much and weren’t ObSec. 8e swapped the paradigm. You are misremembering 7e.
SJ
I just wanted to back-up the idea that Pallies were worthless compared to Terminators in 7th. It was Terminator/Grandmaster/Dreadknight with a sprinkling of Interceptors. Pallies had cool stats but were way too expensive and the extra wound was frequently ignored when they got annihilated by S8 weapons (thus triggering Instant Death and bypassing the wound).
2019/01/24 18:16:36
Subject: Re:8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
I did the "Smite Artillery" about a month ago against Nurgle Plaguebearer spam with Morty. Even before the beta bolter rule, it worked very well; now it would be fantastic. The Fury of Deimos just got incredibly good. Here's what I ran at 2k points, and I think a near-identical list will do quite well (against average folks, not getting to top tables at any GT):
Hide the Dread. Bro Cap and NDKGM stay near as they can to spread aura bubbles, and start out Smiting. Assuming you Sanctuary a GM, then you've got 13 Smites turn one, followed by lots of Stormbolter shots (especially if you went second and got rushed).
2019/01/24 18:29:05
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
jeffersonian000 wrote: You could almost take 2 GKT per Pallie, which netted almost twice the firepower and melee attacks for the same points. No one took Pallies in 7e, they costed too much and weren’t ObSec. 8e swapped the paradigm. You are misremembering 7e.
SJ
Oh please. Objective Secured was such a non-rule and only worked out for Gladius (which was already being held up by the free vehicles in the first place).
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/01/24 18:42:55
Subject: Re:8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Elric Greywolf wrote: So I was just running some numbers and discovered something interesting about Psybolt Ammo.
Assume a 10-man squad, with all 40 shots, and in aura of a GM.
Against GEQ, they get 13.8 wounds without PB, or 17.2 with.
Against MEQ, they get 5.2 wounds without PB, or 10.3 with.
Seems worth it to double your wounds against Marines. But is it worth 2CP to marginally bump your wounds up against MEQ?
Seems like this strat is good against anything that changes the wound bracket, but not worth it against anything that DOESN'T.
So, for example, going from wounds on 4s to wounds on 3s against Marines--you already have the 3s against Guard, so you don't need it.
Or going from 6s to 5s against T8--that one is actually an impressive increase.
So if your target is T4, T5, or T8, use it. If it's not, don't do it. (Unless you really need to knock those couple pesky wounds off a vehicle.)
This math checks out, and I agree with your findings. These same principles also apply to the Psychic Onslaught stratagem on the GMNDK — consider not using unless your G. Psilencer is able to target T4/T5/T8 enemy (multi-wound) AND your H. Psycannon is able to target T4/T7/T8 enemy (multi-wound).
Too many batreps I see GK players dump their precious limited CP on Psychic Onslaught for GMDNK as if it's mandatory, even though the above conditions are not met. It results in one or two extra unsaved wounds, not enough to be worth 2CP.
And once you discover Psychic Onslaught to be situational only, as I have, the H. Incinerator becomes a more attractive option.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/24 18:43:54
2019/01/24 19:03:58
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Homeskillet wrote: I did the "Smite Artillery" about a month ago against Nurgle Plaguebearer spam with Morty. Even before the beta bolter rule, it worked very well; now it would be fantastic. The Fury of Deimos just got incredibly good. Here's what I ran at 2k points, and I think a near-identical list will do quite well (against average folks, not getting to top tables at any GT):
Hide the Dread. Bro Cap and NDKGM stay near as they can to spread aura bubbles, and start out Smiting. Assuming you Sanctuary a GM, then you've got 13 Smites turn one, followed by lots of Stormbolter shots (especially if you went second and got rushed).
Looks interesting.
I'm curious to try this out - as you said, in friendly games not at larger tourneys.
Here's my first try - needs trimming in the Vanguard detachment.
Spoiler:
New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [168 PL, 2057pts]
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 248pts]
Selections: Dreadfist [10pts], Dreadfist [25pts], Heavy Incinerator [19pts], Heavy Psycannon [24pts], Vortex of Doom
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 248pts]
Selections: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist [10pts], Dreadfist [25pts], Heavy Incinerator [19pts], Heavy Psycannon [24pts], Sanctuary, Warlord
jeffersonian000 wrote: You could almost take 2 GKT per Pallie, which netted almost twice the firepower and melee attacks for the same points. No one took Pallies in 7e, they costed too much and weren’t ObSec. 8e swapped the paradigm. You are misremembering 7e.
SJ
Oh please. Objective Secured was such a non-rule and only worked out for Gladius (which was already being held up by the free vehicles in the first place).
Regular teminators were better in 7th. 33pts vs 55pts. Those 22points granted 1 wound yes, but with instant death (strength is double toughness) everywhere, they died just the same. Strength 8 shooting is very easy to come by. Other armies had force too.
"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus
If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again
2019/01/26 22:45:38
Subject: Re:8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Homeskillet wrote: I did the "Smite Artillery" about a month ago against Nurgle Plaguebearer spam with Morty. Even before the beta bolter rule, it worked very well; now it would be fantastic. The Fury of Deimos just got incredibly good. Here's what I ran at 2k points, and I think a near-identical list will do quite well (against average folks, not getting to top tables at any GT):
Hide the Dread. Bro Cap and NDKGM stay near as they can to spread aura bubbles, and start out Smiting. Assuming you Sanctuary a GM, then you've got 13 Smites turn one, followed by lots of Stormbolter shots (especially if you went second and got rushed).
Looks interesting.
I'm curious to try this out - as you said, in friendly games not at larger tourneys.
Here's my first try - needs trimming in the Vanguard detachment.
Spoiler:
New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [168 PL, 2057pts]
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 248pts]
Selections: Dreadfist [10pts], Dreadfist [25pts], Heavy Incinerator [19pts], Heavy Psycannon [24pts], Vortex of Doom
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 248pts]
Selections: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist [10pts], Dreadfist [25pts], Heavy Incinerator [19pts], Heavy Psycannon [24pts], Sanctuary, Warlord
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 248pts]
Selections: Dreadfist [10pts], Dreadfist [25pts], Heavy Incinerator [19pts], Heavy Psycannon [24pts], Vortex of Doom
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 248pts]
Selections: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist [10pts], Dreadfist [25pts], Heavy Incinerator [19pts], Heavy Psycannon [24pts], Sanctuary, Warlord
I'm also thinking about a single battalion, because I"m going to a tournament this month that limits you to one battalion. Mine looks different than yours, though. Thoughts, anyone, on the differences between the two?
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
2019/02/05 01:00:11
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Don't Apothecaries only have a WS3+? I'd avoid the Hammer on them.
Can they take a melee weapon at all, actually? I thought they were limited to the Storm Bolter.
Apothecaries are WS 2+, 3+ with a Hammer. They can’t have a range weapon.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
2019/02/05 01:12:52
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Don't Apothecaries only have a WS3+? I'd avoid the Hammer on them.
Can they take a melee weapon at all, actually? I thought they were limited to the Storm Bolter.
Apothecaries are WS 2+, 3+ with a Hammer. They can’t have a range weapon.
SJ
Huh. I must be thinking of the regular Vanilla Apothecaries. My bad.
Yeah, ours are actually worth a damn.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I'm also thinking about a single battalion, because I"m going to a tournament this month that limits you to one battalion. Mine looks different than yours, though. Thoughts, anyone, on the differences between the two?
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 259pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Hammerhand, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Warlord
Lord Kaldor Draigo [12 PL, 180pts]: Astral Aim, Gate of Infinity
Before I was also bringing Destroyer of Crys'yllx with the Apothecary but I've found myself most of the time using the Apothecary holding objectives so I switched to cuirass of sacrifice. I use Draigo with GI and AI for gating behind the storm ravens and use AI on a raven alongside with psybolt amo depending on the match. Maybe something similar, at the cost of less firepower output for the Ravens, can be archived with a GMNDK or Voldus.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/05 06:19:07
2019/02/05 08:16:23
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Well, the lists of Greywolf and Psipso are light on models.
Two NDKs (or one NDK and Draigo) and two Stormraven make already half of the points. Not my play style.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
wuestenfux wrote: Well, the lists of Greywolf and Psipso are light on models.
Two NDKs (or one NDK and Draigo) and two Stormraven make already half of the points. Not my play style.
Well I could swap a LRC in for one Raven. That would give me enough room for two units of naked servitors, that could sit in a ruin on an objective. My guess is that +1T +1Sv is comparable to Hard to Hit
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/05 14:16:33
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
2019/02/07 15:47:38
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Hey guys, just ran some numbers on a Venerable Rifleman vs a Venerable Missile/Las.
He was not in a reroll aura.
Rifleman vs Marines (T4 Sv3+ 1dmg) – 2.22 wound
Codex vs Marines (1dmg+frag) – 1.64 wounds
NOTE: Interestingly, the Frag and the Krak missile do the same damage against a Marine body.
Rifleman vs Rhino (T7 Sv3+) – 3.33 wounds
Codex vs Rhino – 4.54 wounds
Rifleman vs Stormraven (-1BS T7 Sv3+) – 2.67 wounds
Codex vs Stormraven – 3.62 wounds
Rifleman vs GEQ (T3 Sv5+ 1damage) – 4.63 wounds
Codex vs GEQ – 2.68 wounds
Rifleman vs Russ (T8 Sv3+) – 1.78 wounds
Codex vs Russ – 4.23 wounds
Rifleman vs Riptide with Invuln (T6 Sv3++) – 2.96 wounds
Codex vs Riptide with Invuln – 1.93 wounds
Rifleman vs Eldar Flyer (-2BS T6 Sv4+) – 3.56 wounds
Codex vs Eldar Flyer – 3.31 wounds
Rifleman vs Plaguebearers (T5 Sv5++/5+++) – 3.16 wounds
Codex vs Plaguebearers – 2.07 wounds
NOTE: 145pts of GKSS, in a reroll 1's aura, without psybolts, will do 2.07 wounds to a -1BS Plaguebearer squad, the same as the unsupported missile/las Ven Dread.
These are all averages, and the standard deviation was anywhere from 0.7 all the way to 2.6. Surprisingly, the large number of shots from the fixed damage autocannon balanced out the d6 random damage from the heavier guns, so the standard variation for both builds was similar—except against single-wound models, where the las/missile had a much lower deviation (because I treated those weapons as having single damage against single-wound models).
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
2019/02/07 18:42:26
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
So unfortunately it'll depend on what skew lists are going on. It's good to know how flexible the Autocannon is, but we kinda want the hardcore anti-tank shots.
Do the Invul saves from the Knights really hurt the numbers for the LasML?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/02/07 19:01:28
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Cool math Elric Graywolf — but could you explain the premise? Why must the comparison be Auto/Auto vs. ML/Las? What about all the other possible variations of Auto, ML, and Las?
2019/02/07 19:14:02
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Nairul wrote: Cool math Elric Graywolf — but could you explain the premise? Why must the comparison be Auto/Auto vs. ML/Las? What about all the other possible variations of Auto, ML, and Las?
Rifleman is a traditional Grey Knight build. It sprang up in 5e when we had a 5pt upgrade that made our autocannons +1S. It was the amazing Psyfleman, and I miss it so much. Missile/Las is the standard anti-tank loadout we frequently see from GK in lists and on tables.
If you're thinking about ALL the variations, it'd be simpler to chart a single weapon for each target, and find points efficiency. There are other people to do that who are more obsessed or interested than I am.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/07 19:14:28
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
2019/02/08 01:33:50
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus
If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again
" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever." 
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