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I've been using my GKs with AM to give me boots on the ground and anto-tank options that are more then just melee weapons.
Interceptors are my GKs MVPs. I think they are the best units available for GKs.
Inquisitor Jex wrote: Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.
Peregrine wrote: So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
Allies are a fine way to satisfy Matched Play reinforcements rules. But for those devoted to a pure GK list I've found Interceptors are the perfect answer to that problem.
I think I will stay with my usual army build for now, after I work out a legal set up within points: Draigo, Libby/Voldus, GKT, Interceptors, DKs, and a Knight Errant. Baring take being remotely viable, I'll jigger the list with other options.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
After many years of fantasy and aos, me and the guys have decided to join 40k with the release of 8th ed.
I will start a GK army and the rest will mostly go chaos and xeno scum.
I have been reading through this awesome thread as well as this https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Grey_Knights(8E)
to get an idea of what units to build and how to play. I've come up with a list that I think will be fun (not OP) to play/paint and that look good on the board.
It looks like this :
the idea is to have paladins in the stormraven, dread, voldus and one strike squad start on the board. While the other 4 strike squads and captain deepstrike, and start smiting, shooting things up. Stormraven can move up fast with paladins, while shooting high priority targets with lascanons and meltas. Voldus will try to gate and hammer the dread up the board so he can get into combat ASAP. Voldus and last strike squad can then stay back and grab objektives or mob up what ever is left after the alpha strike.
As I have never played GK's or any 40k games in general. I would greatly appriciate some advise. Is this list/ tactic vaiable or should I go in a different direction.
Our group is mostly friendly, non competitive (ofc we still play to win
My view is this. It'll probably work really well a few times or against new opponents, and then the weaknesses will become apparent. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with it, but I think you may be overestimating your alpha strike.
Point 1: You have ten drops in total (9 for the Paladins in the Raven), and therefore probably won't go first against the majority of armies unless you're playing ITC tournament rules regarding deployment and first turn. I'm in the UK so it's not something I'm familiar with as we play with the core rules. So your opponent is going to have one or two really juicy targets (the Raven and the DreadKnight) to spend their entire first turn shooting at.
Point 2: You have one single ranged anti-armour unit on the board, and that's the Melta Stormraven. A sensible opponent will spend almost any required effort to deny it to you in turn one, and therefore allow his vehicles to move and act with impunity
Point 3: You are more fragile than you think with PAGK. My main regular opponent (Craftworld Eldar, non Ynnari) packs somewhere in the neighbourhood of 20 different guns that will simply deny you a save, or force you to roll a 6+ save for those PAGK.
I think it's a decent enough build, but I think it's far more situational than you think.
Let me give you an example. If I was facing you, I'd place one of my two landraiders on each side of the center of my deployment area, and my own dreadnought and stormraven in the center. Wherever you put that Stormraven, I'm moving one, and gating the other Landraider towards it, and then dropping 8-12 lascannon's into it until it's dead. Probably even get Draigo out of his landraider to let both raiders re-roll their misses. If there's anything left, I'm shooting the rest at your Dreadknight.
please don't misunderstand me, your list is perfectly viable. But it has it's weaknesses, be aware of them when you face your opponents.
Crow, and the Purifiers will start on the board embarked on the Stormraven. Draigo, Terminators and the Dreadknights will be placed in Deepstrike reserves. As I most likely get first turn, the Raven will swoop up the board right infront of my enemy. Everything will deepstrike close to the enemy aswell, with draigo in the center offering a 6'' bubble of reroll goodness. As soon as possible the purifiers will get out and try to get into smite range.
This alphastrike should deal a good amount of damage to the enemy, allowing me to go after objectives with gating units while others stay in close combat.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/04 22:09:24
You won't be able to deepstrike all of those things, as you need at least 50% on the table for matched play. Just put gate on a dreadknight or something and he can shunt up like in 7th Edition.
Also, I'd be hesitant to ever recommend the Plasma Cannons on your Stormraven compared to Lascannons or Assault Cannons. Unless you know you're gonna be facing lots of Terminators all the time they seem sub-optimal, not to mention the risk of self harm.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/04 23:39:54
pinecone77 wrote: I've been considering a GK force, with Sisters. Start the SOB on the field, DS the Knights. Workable? Seems plenty fluffy, but can it win?
GK with Tempestus Scions would be fluffier especially if you added in an inquistor and played them as an "inquisition force".
I've been building lists based in this because of the cheapness of the Scions and the ability of the Taurox Primes compared to their points.
After many years of fantasy and aos, me and the guys have decided to join 40k with the release of 8th ed.
I will start a GK army and the rest will mostly go chaos and xeno scum.
Spoiler:
I have been reading through this awesome thread as well as this https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Grey_Knights(8E)
to get an idea of what units to build and how to play. I've come up with a list that I think will be fun (not OP) to play/paint and that look good on the board.
It looks like this :
the idea is to have paladins in the stormraven, dread, voldus and one strike squad start on the board. While the other 4 strike squads and captain deepstrike, and start smiting, shooting things up. Stormraven can move up fast with paladins, while shooting high priority targets with lascanons and meltas. Voldus will try to gate and hammer the dread up the board so he can get into combat ASAP. Voldus and last strike squad can then stay back and grab objektives or mob up what ever is left after the alpha strike.
As I have never played GK's or any 40k games in general. I would greatly appriciate some advise. Is this list/ tactic vaiable or should I go in a different direction.
Our group is mostly friendly, non competitive (ofc we still play to win
Cheers!
Looks good to me, especially in a casual setting. I would probably switch out the psycannon on the DK for a psilencer since it has more shots and you have a very elite army. Try to make sure you can deal with a lot of bodies effectively. Try not to rely on morale to help you too much because a fair amount of armies have ways to mitigate losses (and everyone can just use 2 CP if it's that important)
Under the new FAQ, you need a Tempestus Prime for each command squad you want to take.
Inquisitor Jex wrote: Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.
Peregrine wrote: So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
I regret to inform you that the Mathammer of page 9 is completely wrong. The problem is not in the calculations, which are correct, but on the assumptions you make to decide that a weapon is "more efficient" than another weapon.
The problem is that you can not calculate the output of any weapon considering its cost alone. To have a weapon in your army, you need to pay for the space marine that is using it and these space marines came in units with certain restrictions (e.g. a certain amount of heavy weapons per squad).
Following your logical, the most efficient weapon of all Astartes is the bolter, as they cost 0 points so they perform an infinite amount of damage per point spent. Just as an example of the absurd of your reasoning.
The correct way to approach this issue (weapon efficiency) is to consider a unit equipped with one set of weapons or another. Or in other words, what are the most efficient way to equip our squads?
For example: how is the performance of a 10 man Strike unit with only stormbolters (210 points) compared with the same unit with 2 psycannons (234 points)? This is expressed as damage output per each 100 points spent.
If you do it for the different scenarios, it is always more point efficient to pay for the psycannons in terms of ranged damage output with the exception of low T and S targets (e.g. imperial guard or similar). Another considerations would be if you want these extra swords or not or if you want/need the extra points to have more units.
In my case, I am moving again my psycannons from the shelf to the table...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/05 13:19:11
Godeskian wrote: My view is this. It'll probably work really well a few times or against new opponents, and then the weaknesses will become apparent. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with it, but I think you may be overestimating your alpha strike.
Point 1: You have ten drops in total (9 for the Paladins in the Raven), and therefore probably won't go first against the majority of armies unless you're playing ITC tournament rules regarding deployment and first turn. I'm in the UK so it's not something I'm familiar with as we play with the core rules. So your opponent is going to have one or two really juicy targets (the Raven and the DreadKnight) to spend their entire first turn shooting at.
Point 2: You have one single ranged anti-armour unit on the board, and that's the Melta Stormraven. A sensible opponent will spend almost any required effort to deny it to you in turn one, and therefore allow his vehicles to move and act with impunity
Point 3: You are more fragile than you think with PAGK. My main regular opponent (Craftworld Eldar, non Ynnari) packs somewhere in the neighbourhood of 20 different guns that will simply deny you a save, or force you to roll a 6+ save for those PAGK.
I think it's a decent enough build, but I think it's far more situational than you think.
Let me give you an example. If I was facing you, I'd place one of my two landraiders on each side of the center of my deployment area, and my own dreadnought and stormraven in the center. Wherever you put that Stormraven, I'm moving one, and gating the other Landraider towards it, and then dropping 8-12 lascannon's into it until it's dead. Probably even get Draigo out of his landraider to let both raiders re-roll their misses. If there's anything left, I'm shooting the rest at your Dreadknight.
please don't misunderstand me, your list is perfectly viable. But it has it's weaknesses, be aware of them when you face your opponents.
Look forward to hearing how your games go.
Thank you for the input. What units would you then Change in the list? Go for more elite infantry or more heavy stuff? Cheers
Thank you for the input. What units would you then Change in the list? Go for more elite infantry or more heavy stuff? Cheers
Well, the thing is that whatever style of play you're going for, commit to it. If you want that Alpha strike, make it one to burn the enemy off the field.
For instance
HQ Crowe and a Brother Captain
Troops - 6 x five man strike knights
Fast attack - 3 x interceptors
Heavy - 3 x Dreadnought with Lascannon and CCW
For about 1909 points. Probably less if you take SM Dreads rather than GK dreadnoughts.
Hide everything on your enemy's turn 1. On your turn one, six strike squads and the brother captain come down, three interceptor squads shunt forward, Crowe gates himself forward and the three dreadnoughts walk forward firing their lascannons
You get 11 smites, 90 - 180 stormbolter shots from the strikes and interceptors, 6 lascannon shots and potentially a charge or two.
The best piece of advice I've ever been given is 'Go heavy, or go home'. In context it means that you have to commit fully to your concept. Me, I love my heavy vehicles. My list runs two landraiders and a stormaven. Sometimes three landraiders, because against almost all lists, that's more armour than they can easily crack.
if you want to go Alpha Strike, then I'd go for the absolute maximum first turn damage Alpha strike that I can manage.
Of course, you mentioned that you play friendlies. This is.....not... a friendly list by any stretch of the imagination
There's no effective way to play grey knights that is not alpha strike. You don't have neither the range firepower nor the staying power to win any other way. You must play aggressive to win.
But don't be tricked, deep strike as a main strategy won't work. If you face scouts, defensive walls of cheap troops or the opponent just steals your initiative, you will loose.
In the above list, for example, if the opponent has defensive measures, you won't be able to deep strike effectively turn one. You will have to deploy in your deployment zone or use the interceptors to clean the chaff, and then you have power armor troops in the open, wich will be destroyed and the rest of your forces will not be powerful enough for the main strike.
Because of this, I think you absolutely need an armored force on the ground. Razorbacks and stormraven (you can use land raiders too) are very efficient and will give you enough firepower to clear the roadblocks (the stormraven can double as antiarmor) while protecting the squads inside from the fire and giving them mobility. Then you have given space for your deep strike units to deploy and sorround the enemy. These units will often be isolated, so they must be durable and damaging, so for this you use paladins, dreadnoughts or dreadknights. Between the troops disembarking from the transports and the deep strikers you execute the alpha strike, being able to attack where it hurts the most and without having suffered too much damage.
In this edition there are not OP units, so spam or unflexible strategies won't work. You have to use all the tools the codex (or index) offers you.
Thank you for the input. What units would you then Change in the list? Go for more elite infantry or more heavy stuff? Cheers
The best piece of advice I've ever been given is 'Go heavy, or go home'. In context it means that you have to commit fully to your concept. Me, I love my heavy vehicles. My list runs two landraiders and a stormaven. Sometimes three landraiders, because against almost all lists, that's more armour than they can easily crack.
if you want to go Alpha Strike, then I'd go for the absolute maximum first turn damage Alpha strike that I can manage.
Of course, you mentioned that you play friendlies. This is.....not... a friendly list by any stretch of the imagination
"Go heavy, or go home"- Allrighty then! I think I get what you mean. How is this then?
Stormraven #1 will contain #1 purifier squad and the captain
Stormraven #2 will contain #2 purifier squad
That will give me 2 drops in deployment, which should grant me 1'st turn start, unless my opponent gets a 6 on the initiative.
But let's suppose I get first turn. Stormravens move up, the terminators, dreadknight and voldus deepstrike 9" from enemies, everything smites, shootes, charge and punch stuff in the face.
From turn 2, captain and purifiers can disembark, and start throwing even more mortal wounds around, with the range bonus from the captain.
What do you think is this a proper alpha strike and great way to lose some friends?
Thank you for the input. What units would you then Change in the list? Go for more elite infantry or more heavy stuff? Cheers
The best piece of advice I've ever been given is 'Go heavy, or go home'. In context it means that you have to commit fully to your concept. Me, I love my heavy vehicles. My list runs two landraiders and a stormaven. Sometimes three landraiders, because against almost all lists, that's more armour than they can easily crack.
if you want to go Alpha Strike, then I'd go for the absolute maximum first turn damage Alpha strike that I can manage.
Of course, you mentioned that you play friendlies. This is.....not... a friendly list by any stretch of the imagination
"Go heavy, or go home"- Allrighty then! I think I get what you mean. How is this then?
Stormraven #1 will contain #1 purifier squad and the captain
Stormraven #2 will contain #2 purifier squad
That will give me 2 drops in deployment, which should grant me 1'st turn start, unless my opponent gets a 6 on the initiative.
But let's suppose I get first turn. Stormravens move up, the terminators, dreadknight and voldus deepstrike 9" from enemies, everything smites, shootes, charge and punch stuff in the face.
From turn 2, captain and purifiers can disembark, and start throwing even more mortal wounds around, with the range bonus from the captain.
What do you think is this a proper alpha strike and great way to lose some friends?
Thanks again
Units you put in deep strike thingy (teleportarium for GK?) count as drops for counting who goes first.
I think GK suffer from a lack of heavy firepower. The best way to get this is what I've already seen in the thread, Militarum Tempestus meltas; or AM Heavy Weapon Squads. I've got 12 models with 5 lascannons and 7 mortars, joined with a Commander to give re-roll hits to the Las (213 pts for 5 las and 7d6 mortar shots per turn with re-rolls).
It's really cheap, which is good for us bc our stuff is expensive!
I think you cannot depend on getting charges from Deep Strike. The 9" charge has a 28% chance of working, which means only 1 out of every 4 units is gonna make it. BOOOOO that's terrible.
Adding Veil of Time to the list (I use a Biker Libby) makes that clutch unit much more likely to get stuck in.
I have Voldus, a Falchion Strike Squad, and a Doomglaive Dread in a Stormraven to get a T2 charge. My opponents have always targeted the Raven heavily, but never managed to kill it T1, which means I do get my charge. The hardest part is positioning with the Raven, I'm still learning how to do that to get disembarks most efficiently.
My next purchase will be a second Raven, and I'll have to magnetize a psycannon arm and a Doomglaive arm to go on one of my Riflemen. I'm super excited about a double-Raven list!
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
Yea I've been toying with the melta Scions idea for a while. Seems like a quick cheap way to get some quick deploying damage for dealing with heavies.
I plan on running 2 Doomglaives they really seem on paper like they are going to be pretty effective because they can cover multiple roles it seems. And only 2 less shots than a Rifleman Dread but with close combat effectiveness and the ability to get an incinerator is huge.
What is everyone's thoughts on MSU Paladins. No heavy weapons. Hammer paragons. By running 3 man units you can create a little target saturation and gets you more hammer paragons.
Paladins are an aggressive tanking unit. In units of 3, the opponent can charge them separately and they are not durable or dangerous enough in that case. Dreadnoughts are not nearly as durable so they don't fill the same role at all.
Secondly, buffs are more effective on a big unit. Paladins are one of the few units in the army that can afford to take hammerhand instead of Gate of infinity. You probably want your GM close by so he can GoI them, and they can hammerhand the GM if he wants to crush a heavy target, and are themselves the best unit to receive the buff because of their number of attacks. In the same way, some times you will want to gate them elsewhere, and if they are split in several small units you won't be able to teleport them all. Also, you will oftentimes want to deploy the GM next to your main force so they benefit from his aura, and you want to include as many units as possible in its range. This is easier to do if you have a single unit compared with small ones. They also work better with an apothecary.
Lastly, it uses less deployments to determine who goes first, which can be a pretty big deal. Having extra paragons is nice, but not worth the trouble.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/08 14:32:44
Apothecaries are useless really. For their price just take nearly 2 more Paladins, it sounds nice being able to make to make a expensive model come back to life but what you really want to use him for is healing the big characters in your army. Run a apothecary with Draigo while being selective about what can legally shoot him and you'll be preserving a much larger part of your army than you realize.
Looking at a small group of Grey Knights to add to my other armies - they'd probably be able to all teleport in without needing to take a tax (which I'd be taking as my main force anyways). How should I organise these? Any additions to the roster? Ideal weapons on some?
Brother-Captain/Librarian with storm bolter and Force Sword
6 Grey Knight Terminators (could be Paladins) - 4 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 1 other weapon (so Falchions, Stave or Sword), Psycannon and Incinerator/Psilencer
Ancient (weapon undetermined)
Apothecary (weapon undetermined)
Basically, what would the ideal weapons be for the Ancient and Apothecary? What about the 6th Terminator? They would have the other special weapon as well as any other melee weapon.
Which works better with the loadout as I said - Captain or Librarian?
Quickjager wrote: Apothecaries are useless really. For their price just take nearly 2 more Paladins, it sounds nice being able to make to make a expensive model come back to life but what you really want to use him for is healing the big characters in your army. Run a apothecary with Draigo while being selective about what can legally shoot him and you'll be preserving a much larger part of your army than you realize.
Actually apothecaries are really really good. They cost 35 points more than a regular paladin, but have 5 wounds, 4 attacks and WS2+. An apothecary with a hammer is 103 points, while 2 paladins with falchions are 110. The apothecary deals more damage than both paladins and is almost as durable. He is, point for point, more efficient than the regular paladins, and that's without considering his healing ability. So there's no reason not to upgrade a paladin to an apothecary in every unit of paladins if you can spare the points.
I have to disagree still, Grey Knights rely on their buffs more than most armies, taking 2 bodies has more benefits in the long run; Hammerhand, Ancient, Draigo; each important to consider since 2 of them are already in the army automatically. Furthermore size constraints are a real thing for us now with deepstriking, we can just tack those two additional bodies on a preexisting unit.
It has real potential use, but right now I can't see him as anything more than Draigo's bandage box.
I'm was tempted to run a list that was essentially Draigo's shiny dozen. 2 Stormravens, Draigo, 6 Apothecaries, 1 Ancient, and 1 Bro-cap. But honestly I doubt the list had legs to stand on.
The apothecary makes better use of the ancient and draigo auras than the two paladins do, so I don't know what's your point. You fail to realise that even discounting the healing ability and the extra smite, the apothecary hits harder and it's more survivable than the two paladins. You are just trying to argue with fact.
Funny how you disregard the apothecary but favour the ancient. The ancient does less damage than the apothecary unless you are buffing at least 3 more units, while being 40 points more expensive.
And if you can't afford the extra slot because of deep striking, you are just building your list wrong.
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