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It's a big deal because it is horrible internal balance that forces GK into a playstyle that some of the community does not like.

It's more amazing you don't get that. It's why people were mad about the previous codex.

Well, the positive thing is: the terminator efficiency can easily be rectified with the next chapter approved book.

The dreadnoughts are sorta bad though, and quite a big deal. With FW faq'ing the GK riffledread out of existence and GW saying that dreadnought should use the latest unit entries, dakka dreads have effectively been squatted for GK players.

At least the C:SM units on bikes weren't updated in their new codex, allowing them to use the old datasheets. RAW right now, the old riffleman dread just isn't allowed in a GK army right now.

Something they said they wanted to avoid with the start of 8th edition. They got exactly 3 codexes in and already screwed the pooch on that one.

I like the new codex. I think it will make for some really potent steam roller armies.

Cheer up lads it's not the end of the world.

I think the codex looks amazing. I don't know why you all seem disappointed.

Purge Soul and Vortex of Doom are absolutely insane.

Take two detachments and make one of them something else.

GKs OWN the psychic phase. If you want shooting phase shooty, take a different detachment!. You are not limited at all. Pull in some AM or SM and crap blast from a distance, stop trying to force it with GK.

With that said, I think we actually have a very strong shooting phase, but we are a midrange shooting army. Storm Bolters are real winners this edition. Psilencers are fantastic, and the new "Astral Aim" ability is out of control.

I get that it might be hard to think through what might be good, but what exact issues are you having in your games? I haven't found anything that is limiting my enthusiasm for GK. I understand that's personal experience and anecdotal, but please indicate what issues you're facing!!

Bigfashizzel wrote:
I think the codex looks amazing. I don't know why you all seem disappointed.

Purge Soul and Vortex of Doom are absolutely insane.

Take two detachments and make one of them something else.

GKs OWN the psychic phase. If you want shooting phase shooty, take a different detachment!. You are not limited at all. Pull in some AM or SM and crap blast from a distance, stop trying to force it with GK.

With that said, I think we actually have a very strong shooting phase, but we are a midrange shooting army. Storm Bolters are real winners this edition. Psilencers are fantastic, and the new "Astral Aim" ability is out of control.

I get that it might be hard to think through what might be good, but what exact issues are you having in your games? I haven't found anything that is limiting my enthusiasm for GK. I understand that's personal experience and anecdotal, but please indicate what issues you're facing!!

I play in an extremely competitive group. So here's what happens:

I reserve 50% of my GK's and put 50% of them down. The 50% of them I put down, regardless of what they are, are completely annihilated by Manticores, Wyverns, Stormravens, Earthshakers (notice how multiple units that don't need line of sight to fire are appearing on this list), Raptors, Knight Crusaders, Purestrain Genestealers, Drop Plasma (Scion and CSM) on my opponent's first turn.

My own alpha strike causes nowhere near as much damage. The low AP on my guns can't punch through any of the armor on those vehicles and the Plasma already did its damage by the time I shoot back, I can't get close enough to smite them and most of them time, even when I do, I do 1 damage since they're not Daemons. Using the Index, I also fail most of my charges and can't reliably engage in combat from Deep Strike, which means on opponent turn 2 the remainder of the army gets wiped. I'm excited to re-roll charges now, but even with Warlord Trait you only have about a 52% chance of getting a charge off per unit.

By turn 3 I just have a handful of stragglers left while my opponent usually has around 50% or a bit more of his/her points on the table.

We're just too fragile for our point cost and low damage output. We either needed to get much tougher (like Custodes T5, 3W, 2+/3++ tough) or deal much more damage (better AP on these guns, not all of them being Heavy). None of the new abilities we got can help with this. Sanctuary is close but under Matched rules you can only cast it on ONE unit. The rest of your army is just as fragile as before.

One possibility from the codex: I've started thinking about a ludicrous All Dreadknight list with the new Grand Master for a 1250 point tournament coming up in November.



++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) ++

+ HQ +

Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknight: Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Hammerhand, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Daemon Greathammer

+ Heavy Support +

Nemesis Dreadknight: Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Hammerhand, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword

Nemesis Dreadknight: Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Hammerhand, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword

Nemesis Dreadknight: Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Hammerhand, Heavy Incinerator, Nemesis Greatsword

When you are saying that the Rifledread is no more allowed in the new codex, what does it mean?

The Venerable Dread is still allowed (with multi melta for example)? (I am playing two of them in my list)

@HeavenLord The Rifledread option has been removed from the codex.

It is still in the FW armour codex, but requires the <CHAPTER> keyword. Grey Knights are not a chapter for these purposes.

The Grandmasrer DK seems like a pretty good upgrade for 30 points.

I don't think our Rifledreads are gone though unless I am not understanding a rule. Even though the Codex doesn't have the autocannon options you can just use the index datasheet and say screw it to the codex rules. GW specifically said that if a codex was missing options that it used to have (which they specifically mentioned dreadnought weapons), that you could the use the index rules. This is what I plan to do.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

Lord Kaldor Draigo

GM Nemesis Dreadknight: dreadfist & Nemesis greatsword; heavy incinerator; gatling psilencer; Dreadknight teleporter

GM Nemesis Dreadknight: dreadfist & Nemesis greatsword; heavy incinerator; gatling psilencer; Dreadknight teleporter

3 Grey Knight Terminators: Justicar (Nemesis Daemon hammer); 2 Grey Knight Terminators; Nemesis warding stave; 2 Nemesis falchions, Storm Bolters

3 Grey Knight Terminators: Justicar (Nemesis Daemon hammer); 2 Grey Knight Terminators; Nemesis warding stave; 2 Nemesis falchions, Storm Bolters

3 Grey Knight Terminators: Justicar (Nemesis Daemon hammer); 2 Grey Knight Terminators; Nemesis warding stave; 2 Nemesis falchions, Storm Bolters

Paladin Ancient: Nemesis falchion 142

5 Paladins: Paragon (Nemesis Daemon hammer); 4 Paladins; Nemesis warding stave; Nemesis Daemon hammer; 2 × 2 Nemesis falchions; 4 × storm bolters


Stormraven Gunship: twin lascannon; twin multi-melta; 2 hurricane bolters

1,980 points approx

How do you think this could be improved based on what we have seen? I am jut about to start modelling my Termies/Pala so keen to get an idea of what direction to head in.

 Slayersan wrote:
I don't think our Rifledreads are gone though unless I am not understanding a rule. Even though the Codex doesn't have the autocannon options you can just use the index datasheet and say screw it to the codex rules. GW specifically said that if a codex was missing options that it used to have (which they specifically mentioned dreadnought weapons), that you could the use the index rules. This is what I plan to do.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

I was reading the comments about the "squatted" dread as well, but the quote from GW covers the dread explicitly, "certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box."

Audustum wrote:

Bigfashizzel wrote:
I think the codex looks amazing. I don't know why you all seem disappointed.

Purge Soul and Vortex of Doom are absolutely insane.

Take two detachments and make one of them something else.

GKs OWN the psychic phase. If you want shooting phase shooty, take a different detachment!. You are not limited at all. Pull in some AM or SM and crap blast from a distance, stop trying to force it with GK.

With that said, I think we actually have a very strong shooting phase, but we are a midrange shooting army. Storm Bolters are real winners this edition. Psilencers are fantastic, and the new "Astral Aim" ability is out of control.

I get that it might be hard to think through what might be good, but what exact issues are you having in your games? I haven't found anything that is limiting my enthusiasm for GK. I understand that's personal experience and anecdotal, but please indicate what issues you're facing!!

I play in an extremely competitive group. So here's what happens:

I reserve 50% of my GK's and put 50% of them down. The 50% of them I put down, regardless of what they are, are completely annihilated by Manticores, Wyverns, Stormravens, Earthshakers (notice how multiple units that don't need line of sight to fire are appearing on this list), Raptors, Knight Crusaders, Purestrain Genestealers, Drop Plasma (Scion and CSM) on my opponent's first turn.

My own alpha strike causes nowhere near as much damage. The low AP on my guns can't punch through any of the armor on those vehicles and the Plasma already did its damage by the time I shoot back, I can't get close enough to smite them and most of them time, even when I do, I do 1 damage since they're not Daemons. Using the Index, I also fail most of my charges and can't reliably engage in combat from Deep Strike, which means on opponent turn 2 the remainder of the army gets wiped. I'm excited to re-roll charges now, but even with Warlord Trait you only have about a 52% chance of getting a charge off per unit.

By turn 3 I just have a handful of stragglers left while my opponent usually has around 50% or a bit more of his/her points on the table.

We're just too fragile for our point cost and low damage output. We either needed to get much tougher (like Custodes T5, 3W, 2+/3++ tough) or deal much more damage (better AP on these guns, not all of them being Heavy). None of the new abilities we got can help with this. Sanctuary is close but under Matched rules you can only cast it on ONE unit. The rest of your army is just as fragile as before.

You can take the same units if you want. You can run 5 land raiders, you can build an all flier list or an all dread knight list. I guess it's cool to look at a hammer and try to turn it into a pair of scissors, but if your meta is dominated by alpha strike lists, you might need an alpha strike list. Or you might need units that are more survivable on the table.

Why aren't you using Land Raiders? Dreadknights and dreadnoughts? Stormravens?

Bigfashizzel wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Bigfashizzel wrote:
I think the codex looks amazing. I don't know why you all seem disappointed.

Purge Soul and Vortex of Doom are absolutely insane.

Take two detachments and make one of them something else.

GKs OWN the psychic phase. If you want shooting phase shooty, take a different detachment!. You are not limited at all. Pull in some AM or SM and crap blast from a distance, stop trying to force it with GK.

With that said, I think we actually have a very strong shooting phase, but we are a midrange shooting army. Storm Bolters are real winners this edition. Psilencers are fantastic, and the new "Astral Aim" ability is out of control.

I get that it might be hard to think through what might be good, but what exact issues are you having in your games? I haven't found anything that is limiting my enthusiasm for GK. I understand that's personal experience and anecdotal, but please indicate what issues you're facing!!

I play in an extremely competitive group. So here's what happens:

I reserve 50% of my GK's and put 50% of them down. The 50% of them I put down, regardless of what they are, are completely annihilated by Manticores, Wyverns, Stormravens, Earthshakers (notice how multiple units that don't need line of sight to fire are appearing on this list), Raptors, Knight Crusaders, Purestrain Genestealers, Drop Plasma (Scion and CSM) on my opponent's first turn.

My own alpha strike causes nowhere near as much damage. The low AP on my guns can't punch through any of the armor on those vehicles and the Plasma already did its damage by the time I shoot back, I can't get close enough to smite them and most of them time, even when I do, I do 1 damage since they're not Daemons. Using the Index, I also fail most of my charges and can't reliably engage in combat from Deep Strike, which means on opponent turn 2 the remainder of the army gets wiped. I'm excited to re-roll charges now, but even with Warlord Trait you only have about a 52% chance of getting a charge off per unit.

By turn 3 I just have a handful of stragglers left while my opponent usually has around 50% or a bit more of his/her points on the table.

We're just too fragile for our point cost and low damage output. We either needed to get much tougher (like Custodes T5, 3W, 2+/3++ tough) or deal much more damage (better AP on these guns, not all of them being Heavy). None of the new abilities we got can help with this. Sanctuary is close but under Matched rules you can only cast it on ONE unit. The rest of your army is just as fragile as before.

You can take the same units if you want. You can run 5 land raiders, you can build an all flier list or an all dread knight list. I guess it's cool to look at a hammer and try to turn it into a pair of scissors, but if your meta is dominated by alpha strike lists, you might need an alpha strike list. Or you might need units that are more survivable on the table.

Why aren't you using Land Raiders? Dreadknights and dreadnoughts? Stormravens?

?

I AM using Dreadnoughts and Dreadknights. Who said I didn't? They die just as fast as Terminators. You ever see what a single unit of 20 Purestrains can do with to a Nought or DK?

If I'm going to run a list of all Landraiders and Stormravens there are other factions (like Ultramarine) that can do it significantly better and it's pointless to have the GK moniker.

And FYI, I do play multiple factions. I'd just like GW to make it so my wonderful Knights aren't completely ineffectual.

Audustum wrote:

Bigfashizzel wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Bigfashizzel wrote:
I think the codex looks amazing. I don't know why you all seem disappointed.

Purge Soul and Vortex of Doom are absolutely insane.

Take two detachments and make one of them something else.

GKs OWN the psychic phase. If you want shooting phase shooty, take a different detachment!. You are not limited at all. Pull in some AM or SM and crap blast from a distance, stop trying to force it with GK.

With that said, I think we actually have a very strong shooting phase, but we are a midrange shooting army. Storm Bolters are real winners this edition. Psilencers are fantastic, and the new "Astral Aim" ability is out of control.

I get that it might be hard to think through what might be good, but what exact issues are you having in your games? I haven't found anything that is limiting my enthusiasm for GK. I understand that's personal experience and anecdotal, but please indicate what issues you're facing!!

I play in an extremely competitive group. So here's what happens:

I reserve 50% of my GK's and put 50% of them down. The 50% of them I put down, regardless of what they are, are completely annihilated by Manticores, Wyverns, Stormravens, Earthshakers (notice how multiple units that don't need line of sight to fire are appearing on this list), Raptors, Knight Crusaders, Purestrain Genestealers, Drop Plasma (Scion and CSM) on my opponent's first turn.

My own alpha strike causes nowhere near as much damage. The low AP on my guns can't punch through any of the armor on those vehicles and the Plasma already did its damage by the time I shoot back, I can't get close enough to smite them and most of them time, even when I do, I do 1 damage since they're not Daemons. Using the Index, I also fail most of my charges and can't reliably engage in combat from Deep Strike, which means on opponent turn 2 the remainder of the army gets wiped. I'm excited to re-roll charges now, but even with Warlord Trait you only have about a 52% chance of getting a charge off per unit.

By turn 3 I just have a handful of stragglers left while my opponent usually has around 50% or a bit more of his/her points on the table.

We're just too fragile for our point cost and low damage output. We either needed to get much tougher (like Custodes T5, 3W, 2+/3++ tough) or deal much more damage (better AP on these guns, not all of them being Heavy). None of the new abilities we got can help with this. Sanctuary is close but under Matched rules you can only cast it on ONE unit. The rest of your army is just as fragile as before.

You can take the same units if you want. You can run 5 land raiders, you can build an all flier list or an all dread knight list. I guess it's cool to look at a hammer and try to turn it into a pair of scissors, but if your meta is dominated by alpha strike lists, you might need an alpha strike list. Or you might need units that are more survivable on the table.

Why aren't you using Land Raiders? Dreadknights and dreadnoughts? Stormravens?

?

I AM using Dreadnoughts and Dreadknights. Who said I didn't? They die just as fast as Terminators. You ever see what a single unit of 20 Purestrains can do with to a Nought or DK?

If I'm going to run a list of all Landraiders and Stormravens there are other factions (like Ultramarine) that can do it significantly better and it's pointless to have the GK moniker.

And FYI, I do play multiple factions. I'd just like GW to make it so my wonderful Knights aren't completely ineffectual.

To piggy back... I was playing against a guard list the other day. Had a full storm Raven and interceptors hiding on turn 1 against a guard Scion/conscripts/artillery list. Dude used one of his 12 cp to reroll seize. He gets it. My storm Raven, the dreadnought, 10purifiers, 10 interceptors and Crowe we're dead before I could do anything. I was tabled by turn 2 as my strike squads just couldn't chew through enough bodies.

Really frustrated me about the grey knights. How are you all dealing with these lists?

 Smotejob wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Bigfashizzel wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Bigfashizzel wrote:
I think the codex looks amazing. I don't know why you all seem disappointed.

Purge Soul and Vortex of Doom are absolutely insane.

Take two detachments and make one of them something else.

GKs OWN the psychic phase. If you want shooting phase shooty, take a different detachment!. You are not limited at all. Pull in some AM or SM and crap blast from a distance, stop trying to force it with GK.

With that said, I think we actually have a very strong shooting phase, but we are a midrange shooting army. Storm Bolters are real winners this edition. Psilencers are fantastic, and the new "Astral Aim" ability is out of control.

I get that it might be hard to think through what might be good, but what exact issues are you having in your games? I haven't found anything that is limiting my enthusiasm for GK. I understand that's personal experience and anecdotal, but please indicate what issues you're facing!!

I play in an extremely competitive group. So here's what happens:

I reserve 50% of my GK's and put 50% of them down. The 50% of them I put down, regardless of what they are, are completely annihilated by Manticores, Wyverns, Stormravens, Earthshakers (notice how multiple units that don't need line of sight to fire are appearing on this list), Raptors, Knight Crusaders, Purestrain Genestealers, Drop Plasma (Scion and CSM) on my opponent's first turn.

My own alpha strike causes nowhere near as much damage. The low AP on my guns can't punch through any of the armor on those vehicles and the Plasma already did its damage by the time I shoot back, I can't get close enough to smite them and most of them time, even when I do, I do 1 damage since they're not Daemons. Using the Index, I also fail most of my charges and can't reliably engage in combat from Deep Strike, which means on opponent turn 2 the remainder of the army gets wiped. I'm excited to re-roll charges now, but even with Warlord Trait you only have about a 52% chance of getting a charge off per unit.

By turn 3 I just have a handful of stragglers left while my opponent usually has around 50% or a bit more of his/her points on the table.

We're just too fragile for our point cost and low damage output. We either needed to get much tougher (like Custodes T5, 3W, 2+/3++ tough) or deal much more damage (better AP on these guns, not all of them being Heavy). None of the new abilities we got can help with this. Sanctuary is close but under Matched rules you can only cast it on ONE unit. The rest of your army is just as fragile as before.

You can take the same units if you want. You can run 5 land raiders, you can build an all flier list or an all dread knight list. I guess it's cool to look at a hammer and try to turn it into a pair of scissors, but if your meta is dominated by alpha strike lists, you might need an alpha strike list. Or you might need units that are more survivable on the table.

Why aren't you using Land Raiders? Dreadknights and dreadnoughts? Stormravens?

?

I AM using Dreadnoughts and Dreadknights. Who said I didn't? They die just as fast as Terminators. You ever see what a single unit of 20 Purestrains can do with to a Nought or DK?

If I'm going to run a list of all Landraiders and Stormravens there are other factions (like Ultramarine) that can do it significantly better and it's pointless to have the GK moniker.

And FYI, I do play multiple factions. I'd just like GW to make it so my wonderful Knights aren't completely ineffectual.

To piggy back... I was playing against a guard list the other day. Had a full storm Raven and interceptors hiding on turn 1 against a guard Scion/conscripts/artillery list. Dude used one of his 12 cp to reroll seize. He gets it. My storm Raven, the dreadnought, 10purifiers, 10 interceptors and Crowe we're dead before I could do anything. I was tabled by turn 2 as my strike squads just couldn't chew through enough bodies.

Really frustrated me about the grey knights. How are you all dealing with these lists?

So the only thing I've done that's semi-effective with GK against these kinds of lists is to (assuming 2k point game) spend about 1k-1.2k on some other faction and then make a Vanguard or Spearhead detachment of GK to work as kind of an elite strike team (entirely within Deep Strike to keep them safe) and then coordinate their landing with the allied force hitting my enemy.

Don't use bad experiences against IG as your reasoning for saying a particular codex is bad. Most of their units are massively undercosted and desperately need toning down or pricing up. Everyone else is also struggling to not get tabled by them.

I've been crushed by IG too, but also played several games against different opponents (Tau, Orks, Chaos and Space Wolves) and won all of them. Alpha strike from storm ravens and deepstrike is brutal and will only get better with this new codex

Spartacus wrote:
Don't use bad experiences against IG as your reasoning for saying a particular codex is bad. Most of their units are massively undercosted and desperately need toning down or pricing up. Everyone else is also struggling to not get tabled by them.

I've been crushed by IG too, but also played several games against different opponents (Tau, Orks, Chaos and Space Wolves) and won all of them. Alpha strike from storm ravens and deepstrike is brutal and will only get better with this new codex

None of those armies you listed (except potentially Tau) is an emerging top tier army. It's not just Astra Militarum up there. Genestealers/Tyranids, Space Marines (particularly Ultramarines), from what I hear Dark Eldar/Harlequins/Ynnari and even CSM (who also just got a bunch of point reductions in their Codex) can brutalize us as bad as Astra Militarum.

I won't say we're bottom of the barrel, but we have no way to hang with the big kids and for an edition that's supposed to be super balanced that's a problem.

Well dang that's sad to hear. Your experience is valuable, I don't play against those lists. I guess we're not top tier.

I love the edition and rules, so I guess I'm just lucky to not play against those players.

So this is going to be a thing:

GK Ven dread with TL lascannon and ML. Takes Astral aim

Park it and a land raider nearby behind LOS blocking terrain/cover. Cast Astral aim on either unit, and profit. You get to ignore opposing cover as an added bonus.

Rolling Thunder wrote:
So this is going to be a thing:

GK Ven dread with TL lascannon and ML. Takes Astral aim

Park it and a land raider nearby behind LOS blocking terrain/cover. Cast Astral aim on either unit, and profit. You get to ignore opposing cover as an added bonus.

Might not be so easy when you have fewer drops and their are plenty of flyers that can dish out serious damage. It will be one of those things where you take advantage of it when you, however its unlikely you would be able to reliably build around it.

Anyone know if the rumor Paladins went DOWN in cost is true?

That's insane if so, insane as in I don't understand what internal balance is according to GW.

It's blurry, but when I pause the video on the points page it still looks like 53PPM.

Paladins are definitely 53 in the video.

Battlescribe currently has them at 55.

 w0nderland wrote:
Paladins are definitely 53 in the video.

Battlescribe currently has them at 55.

Huh, my copy of Index 1 has them at 53.

Audustum wrote:

 w0nderland wrote:
Paladins are definitely 53 in the video.

Battlescribe currently has them at 55.

Huh, my copy of Index 1 has them at 53.

Battlescribe probably has the cost of the storm bolter built in to the price standard.

Yes. So 53 base, plus Bolter.

That's probably where the confusion has come through

I really like the look of some of the stratagems and the psychic powers. Glad we got more powers to play with this time round.

Shame the terminators are unplayable due to points cost. Crowe looks like he'll be even more of a beast in combat now with that warlord trait.

Any idea what I can do with my dreadnoughts now? I have mine modelled with autocannons so I'd like to still use them as dakka dreads. Guess assault cannons or lascannons are the way forward but I'll have to snap an arm off each dread as you can't duel wield I presume?

You can continue to use the index dreadnought sheet. Let your rifleman roam free!

I think WinterSEO made a mistake during his review when he read out the points cost for GM dreadknights. He says normal DKs are 160 while GM DKs are 190, making them 30 points more (which is the number Ive been using).

In the video you can see that normal DKs have stayed the same cost. Which is fine but means that a GM dreadknight upgrade actually costs 60 more points. Its very hard to make out but I think I can read the figure 190 by its entry on the points oage. Probably still worth it for the 2+ invuln monstrous creature shenanigans, but lame.