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So, some questions on how to deal with the Guilliman Brick that has been popping up recently with the Knights.

Figure well-balanced TAC list, in a multi-game event so can't skew for seeing Guilliman.

How do we deal with him? I played a game recently my opponent castled in a set of ruins with copious amounts of primaris marines with an apothecary, Gravis Captain, and Big Bobby G. I managed to drop Guilliman to 4 wounds with smites after deepstriking a DK, Terminators, and Chaplain, plus blowing the 2CP psybolt strategem for shooting from the terminators. Between that and the Fury of Deimos on the chaplain (my warlord, with First to the Fray)I figured I could ace him right then and there. While I did fail my charges with the DK and Chaplain the terminators made it in. I did no wounds to Guilliman while he killed all 5 terminators. He then went on to Kill the Chaplain and DK while being healed back up to full from the apothecary over the next few turns.

I picked apart the rest of the primaris army while grinding my own out. I got the Paladins + Paladin Ancient + Apothecary in against Guilliman with hammerhand and Sanctuary up and still lost all my paladins, apothecary, and ancient over two rounds of combat (1 hammer, 4 swords). Guilliman ended the game at full health.

So, how do we as an army deal with him? We don't have wide access to ranged heavy firepower in the volume needed to drop past his 3++ - so in my opinion we're forced to stack buffs and engage in melee. Did I stack correctly and just didn't get the dice needed, or is he really that hard? I figured 5 paladins with +1 attack and +1 to wound would be enough to hang enough D3 damage hits on him to drop him.

We also don't have a horde to tie him up with. And I feel that we can't be passive and try and range-game his army out when he castles up as we can't compete with the re-roll hits and wounds en masse.

So, yeah. Any tips on how to engage him and his possible castle?

as an aside, I ended up winning the game by 1vp with two models left on the field (LRC and Voldus). Maelstrom of War mission. I couldn't kill him so I ran around grabbing objectives.

I think you have to kill the things he's buffing, rather than focus on him, until you have the resources at hand to kill him in one turn. I wouldn't assault him at all until you think he's gonna die, and never assault him with more than one unit at a time as he will use 2CP to interrupt you and blow the second unit away.

GK actually have some of the better shooting weapons to kill him, as you really just need to force his saves with lots of shots, ideally with D2+. So psylencers are pretty good. Smite is also great.

I see this Terminators are inferior to Paladins stuff quite a bit. Mathematically, it's true, but, that assumes no bounded conditions.

You have 2000 points to spend, and neither Paladins nor Terminators are considered must-take. With that said, you have a very limited amount of workable points where you could fit either of these in.

With the new stratagems, a battalion is a smart decision.

So when you factor in:
(a) You absolutely have to have the "must includes" in your army.
(b) You only have 2000 total points to spend
(c) You need to bring 3 troops
(d) Terminators have objective secured

Terminators are more usable than Paladins.

In a straight up comparison with no boundary conditions, Paladins are greater than Terminators. But when you're building a list, fitting in Paladins in a meaningful way is incredibly costly.

[quote=wraith[cs] 727042 9560530 null]So, some questions on how to deal with the Guilliman Brick that has been popping up recently with the Knights.

Figure well-balanced TAC list, in a multi-game event so can't skew for seeing Guilliman.

How do we deal with him? I played a game recently my opponent castled in a set of ruins with copious amounts of primaris marines with an apothecary, Gravis Captain, and Big Bobby G. I managed to drop Guilliman to 4 wounds with smites after deepstriking a DK, Terminators, and Chaplain, plus blowing the 2CP psybolt strategem for shooting from the terminators. Between that and the Fury of Deimos on the chaplain (my warlord, with First to the Fray)I figured I could ace him right then and there. While I did fail my charges with the DK and Chaplain the terminators made it in. I did no wounds to Guilliman while he killed all 5 terminators. He then went on to Kill the Chaplain and DK while being healed back up to full from the apothecary over the next few turns.

I picked apart the rest of the primaris army while grinding my own out. I got the Paladins + Paladin Ancient + Apothecary in against Guilliman with hammerhand and Sanctuary up and still lost all my paladins, apothecary, and ancient over two rounds of combat (1 hammer, 4 swords). Guilliman ended the game at full health.

So, how do we as an army deal with him? We don't have wide access to ranged heavy firepower in the volume needed to drop past his 3++ - so in my opinion we're forced to stack buffs and engage in melee. Did I stack correctly and just didn't get the dice needed, or is he really that hard? I figured 5 paladins with +1 attack and +1 to wound would be enough to hang enough D3 damage hits on him to drop him.

We also don't have a horde to tie him up with. And I feel that we can't be passive and try and range-game his army out when he castles up as we can't compete with the re-roll hits and wounds en masse.

So, yeah. Any tips on how to engage him and his possible castle?

as an aside, I ended up winning the game by 1vp with two models left on the field (LRC and Voldus). Maelstrom of War mission. I couldn't kill him so I ran around grabbing objectives.

 Marmatag wrote:
I see this Terminators are inferior to Paladins stuff quite a bit. Mathematically, it's true, but, that assumes no bounded conditions.

You have 2000 points to spend, and neither Paladins nor Terminators are considered must-take. With that said, you have a very limited amount of workable points where you could fit either of these in.

With the new stratagems, a battalion is a smart decision.

So when you factor in:
(a) You absolutely have to have the "must includes" in your army.
(b) You only have 2000 total points to spend
(c) You need to bring 3 troops
(d) Terminators have objective secured

Terminators are more usable than Paladins.

In a straight up comparison with no boundary conditions, Paladins are greater than Terminators. But when you're building a list, fitting in Paladins in a meaningful way is incredibly costly.

Strike Squads do OS cheaper if you desperately want it. The significant level of durability in Paladins is better, simply because a dead Terminator can't hold am objective.

Pretty much what Slayer said.

If you want OS use Strike Squads who are more numerous and therefore able to contest other OS squads more easily than Terminators. They are also much more durable against most things Terminators are weak to because you aren't getting a 46 point model pasted by plasma, autocannon, etc. as the 2 damage doesn't count for much against a 1 wound model.

Also more attacks per point, combat squadding is much more feasible pointwise for deepstriking synergy, and you can actually move them with Rhino's if you want.

I think there is a place for Terminators, but scion plasma has put them in a difficult spot. 15 points for a unit that can 1-shot a 46 point model roughly 35% of the time is bogus. Against GK terminators, plasma scions are, on average, capable of making their points back in a single round of shooting.

Wouldn't be such a big deal, except that Plasma is the Swiss Army knife of the edition, and Scion command squads are cheap enough they see a lot of play.

So the warlord trait FttF is obviously great, especially with NDK GMs teleporting in, but I find that if the warlord is a NDK GM, he is priority number one and tends to get iced, giving up VPs for Slay the warlord... To address this, I have found that making a lowly Apothecary the warlord to be an interesting solution... Give him the Curiass of Sacrifice, and with his innate healing, he is a real bugger to kill... You can still teleport him in with your NDKs and paladins so the benefit from FttF, which seems to work well...

Thoughts?

Rolling Thunder wrote:
So the warlord trait FttF is obviously great, especially with NDK GMs teleporting in, but I find that if the warlord is a NDK GM, he is priority number one and tends to get iced, giving up VPs for Slay the warlord... To address this, I have found that making a lowly Apothecary the warlord to be an interesting solution... Give him the Curiass of Sacrifice, and with his innate healing, he is a real bugger to kill... You can still teleport him in with your NDKs and paladins so the benefit from FttF, which seems to work well...

Thoughts?

If your sole goal is to not give up Slay The Warlord, it's actually a fantastic idea. I don't think it to be necessary at all though, and I honestly expect my warlord to die in every game I play, no matter what army I play. The moment they grab an objective themselves or gained a KP is the moment they make up for giving up a potential VP on my opponents end.

I'm more reckless and uncaring in my games though with my Warlord because real heroes are the martyrs that die for the Emperor.

I mean it's just one potential VP.

I just got my first dreadknight. I plan on getting a grandmaster dreadknight too. I was thinking of loading it out it the sword, psilencer and psycannon. What's the preferred loadout for a regular dreadknight?

So the warlord trait FttF is obviously great, especially with NDK GMs teleporting in, but I find that if the warlord is a NDK GM, he is priority number one and tends to get iced, giving up VPs for Slay the warlord... To address this, I have found that making a lowly Apothecary the warlord to be an interesting solution... Give him the Curiass of Sacrifice, and with his innate healing, he is a real bugger to kill... You can still teleport him in with your NDKs and paladins so the benefit from FttF, which seems to work well...

Thoughts?

If my opponent wants to bash his head against a T6 2++ 12W brick wall all game just for the sake of a warlord kill, I'd consider that a win. Slay the warlord is more easily achieved than ever in this edition, and as Slayer-Fan said its pretty much something you should expect to happen most games. Might as well make it work to your advantage.

Thor0298 wrote:
I just got my first dreadknight. I plan on getting a grandmaster dreadknight too. I was thinking of loading it out it the sword, psilencer and psycannon. What's the preferred loadout for a regular dreadknight?

Exactly that I'd say.

Hey all. This is my first attempt at a Grey Knight's list in 8th edition. Do you all have any thoughts on it? I'm looking to make this into an all comer's list that I can work towards building/painting up that can also be somewhat competitive.


+ HQ +

Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight: Warlord Trait: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Sanctuary

Lord Kaldor Draigo: Gate of Infinity, Sanctuary

+ Troops +

Strike Squad : Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchion): 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Strike Squad : Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchion): 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Strike Squad: Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchion): 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

+ Heavy Support +

Purgation Squad: Gate of Infinity
. 4x Purgator (Psilencer): 4x Psilencer
. Purgator Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Purgation Squad Gate of Infinity
. 4x Purgator (Psilencer): 4x Psilencer
. Purgator Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

+ Flyer +

Stormraven Gunship 2x Hurricane Bolter, 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin multi-melta

Stormraven Gunship 2x Hurricane Bolter, 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin multi-melta

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback: Twin Assault Cannon

Razorback Twin Assault Cannon

Razorback Twin Assault Cannon

Rolling Thunder wrote:
So the warlord trait FttF is obviously great, especially with NDK GMs teleporting in, but I find that if the warlord is a NDK GM, he is priority number one and tends to get iced, giving up VPs for Slay the warlord... To address this, I have found that making a lowly Apothecary the warlord to be an interesting solution... Give him the Curiass of Sacrifice, and with his innate healing, he is a real bugger to kill... You can still teleport him in with your NDKs and paladins so the benefit from FttF, which seems to work well...

Thoughts?

When he drops in and gets Sanctuary up, the GM is crazy resilient. The 3++ is no joke, and you can always command point a re-roll if needed if you fail that Lascannon save. Also, I've been using a Techmarine to be the GM's healbot, and it's been working great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Comet wrote:
Hey all. This is my first attempt at a Grey Knight's list in 8th edition. Do you all have any thoughts on it? I'm looking to make this into an all comer's list that I can work towards building/painting up that can also be somewhat competitive.


+ HQ +

Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight: Warlord Trait: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Sanctuary

Lord Kaldor Draigo: Gate of Infinity, Sanctuary

+ Troops +

Strike Squad : Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchion): 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Strike Squad : Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchion): 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Strike Squad: Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchion): 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

+ Heavy Support +

Purgation Squad: Gate of Infinity
. 4x Purgator (Psilencer): 4x Psilencer
. Purgator Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Purgation Squad Gate of Infinity
. 4x Purgator (Psilencer): 4x Psilencer
. Purgator Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

+ Flyer +

Stormraven Gunship 2x Hurricane Bolter, 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin multi-melta

Stormraven Gunship 2x Hurricane Bolter, 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin multi-melta

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback: Twin Assault Cannon

Razorback Twin Assault Cannon

Razorback Twin Assault Cannon

Very solid list. I think Draigo is unnecessary in this build, but if you like him, he's never bad. You could put in a Techmarine to heal the GM, or replace Draigo with a Chaplain or cheaper GM. I'd also consider Lascannons on your Stormravens; you have a lot of good anti-infantry, but a bit more anti-tank could be great.

wraith wrote:
Figure well-balanced TAC list, in a multi-game event so can't skew for seeing Guilliman.

How do we deal with him? I played a game recently my opponent castled in a set of ruins with copious amounts of primaris marines with an apothecary, Gravis Captain, and Big Bobby G. I managed to drop Guilliman to 4 wounds with smites after deepstriking a DK, Terminators, and Chaplain, plus blowing the 2CP psybolt strategem for shooting from the terminators. Between that and the Fury of Deimos on the chaplain (my warlord, with First to the Fray)I figured I could ace him right then and there. While I did fail my charges with the DK and Chaplain the terminators made it in. I did no wounds to Guilliman while he killed all 5 terminators. He then went on to Kill the Chaplain and DK while being healed back up to full from the apothecary over the next few turns.

I picked apart the rest of the primaris army while grinding my own out. I got the Paladins + Paladin Ancient + Apothecary in against Guilliman with hammerhand and Sanctuary up and still lost all my paladins, apothecary, and ancient over two rounds of combat (1 hammer, 4 swords). Guilliman ended the game at full health.

So, yeah. Any tips on how to engage him and his possible castle?

Rouboute Guilliman can't be healed by an Apothecary. He's a monster, not an infantry or a bike. Your opponent cheated, though probably not on purpose.

We get FAQed, nor more 2++ save with sanctuary ...

Are we really so dangerous, GW, that we needed a FAQ only to be nerfed?

Also, couldn't you get around this by just using the Stratagem after Sanctuary?

No only "at the start of your turn" ..

HeavenLord wrote:
No only "at the start of your turn" ..

Ah right, well, you can still Stratagem a 2++ on Draigo then but that's it.

 alanmckenzie wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Terminators are wayyyyy overcosted. Paladins are good.

Paladins take literally double the shots of overcharged plasma to kill, for about a 20% price increase. Downside? They become point pinatas against lascannons, melta, or battle-cannons. But no one runs enough lascannons really, melta is on pretty immobile short ranged units, and battle-cannons are so bad people don't use them.

Paladins are always better. EXCEPT in very fringe cases.

Falchions have been mathhammered to be the best, but take a hammer on your Paladin squad leader, because he has a 2+ that becomes a 3+ to hit. More value that way.

Special weapons are your call, I think most people here agree take special weapons on power armor, not TEQ.

Thanks for this reply. Some good info.

I don't suppose there's much stopping me from running them as either paladins or standard terminators depending on how many points I want to spend.

And looking at the sprues, there's nothing stopping me from magnetising the Apothecary and Battle Standard arms.

So, the hammer on the Paragon or Justicar (good shout).
2 dudes with falchions.
2 dudes with halberds (one with magnetised right arm who can become the ancient, one with magnetised left arm who can become the Apothecary).

Thanks again.

Hammer on Paragon, Falchions on the rest all day. If your building an apothecary give him a hammer or a stave for the increased killing power/durability respectively.

Yay for FAQ's...

I'm gonna take an apothecary to my next battle, mostly just for fun.

Can anyone see any reason why the apothecary cannot target himself with his Narthecium ability? Looks fine to me but just wanted to be sure.

So they nerfed us and said nothing on if we could get dreadnoughts with autocannons? Nice

So the FAQ stops Draigo casting sanctuary on himself but that's all, you can still do the GM 2++.

1. Use the stratagem at the start of the turn as it says (so you add 1 to your inv saving throws)
2. During psychic phase cast new and faq'd sanctuary which now increases your inv save by 1 to a maximum of 3+
3. You now, effectively, have a 2++.

Your GM now has a 3++ due to sanctuary and whenever you roll to save you have a +1 modifier on the roll due to the stratagem.

Thoughts on a brigade to max out smite spam? I pointed one out, you can fit Crowe, a Brotherhood Champion, a Brother Captain, 6x Strikes, and 3x Apothecaries/Purgation Squads/Interceptor Squads, with a few points left over for some psilincers. That's a potential 18 smites, many of which have increased range, healing from the apothecaries spread out, lots of storm bolter and psilincer dakka, plus a whole lot of deep striking or teleporting squads. With the 12 CP, does anyone think it's a doable army, or just gimmicky?

 Bi'ios wrote:
Thoughts on a brigade to max out smite spam? I pointed one out, you can fit Crowe, a Brotherhood Champion, a Brother Captain, 6x Strikes, and 3x Apothecaries/Purgation Squads/Interceptor Squads, with a few points left over for some psilincers. That's a potential 18 smites, many of which have increased range, healing from the apothecaries spread out, lots of storm bolter and psilincer dakka, plus a whole lot of deep striking or teleporting squads. With the 12 CP, does anyone think it's a doable army, or just gimmicky?

If you're going for smite spam it'll be worth trying to fit in an Ancient with the relic banner - with the bonus from the brother captain he will have a D6 smite with 12 inch range, so straight outta deepstrike. Not sure how that works with your points limit.

It'll probably work ok unless you're up against Guard or 'Nids.

Spartacus wrote:

 Bi'ios wrote:
Thoughts on a brigade to max out smite spam? I pointed one out, you can fit Crowe, a Brotherhood Champion, a Brother Captain, 6x Strikes, and 3x Apothecaries/Purgation Squads/Interceptor Squads, with a few points left over for some psilincers. That's a potential 18 smites, many of which have increased range, healing from the apothecaries spread out, lots of storm bolter and psilincer dakka, plus a whole lot of deep striking or teleporting squads. With the 12 CP, does anyone think it's a doable army, or just gimmicky?

If you're going for smite spam it'll be worth trying to fit in an Ancient with the relic banner - with the bonus from the brother captain he will have a D6 smite with 12 inch range, so straight outta deepstrike. Not sure how that works with your points limit.

It'll probably work ok unless you're up against Guard or 'Nids.

I suppose I should have mentioned it's at 2000pts. There's really little to no wiggle room in there. I had considered what you'd mentioned, but to fit him I'd have to drop the Brother Captain for something cheaper, and he's pretty important.

My current meta doesn't have anyone running any hordes, so that's good (although I'm looking forward towards building a competitive army).

I'm about to build up my first strike squad box and was thinking dual falchions and storm bolters. Possibly a heavy weapon in there too. How do you guys like loading out your strikes squads?

Falchions, SB, and a Psylencer if you have the points.

 Homeskillet wrote:

Rolling Thunder wrote:
So the warlord trait FttF is obviously great, especially with NDK GMs teleporting in, but I find that if the warlord is a NDK GM, he is priority number one and tends to get iced, giving up VPs for Slay the warlord... To address this, I have found that making a lowly Apothecary the warlord to be an interesting solution... Give him the Curiass of Sacrifice, and with his innate healing, he is a real bugger to kill... You can still teleport him in with your NDKs and paladins so the benefit from FttF, which seems to work well...

Thoughts?

When he drops in and gets Sanctuary up, the GM is crazy resilient. The 3++ is no joke, and you can always command point a re-roll if needed if you fail that Lascannon save. Also, I've been using a Techmarine to be the GM's healbot, and it's been working great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Comet wrote:
Hey all. This is my first attempt at a Grey Knight's list in 8th edition. Do you all have any thoughts on it? I'm looking to make this into an all comer's list that I can work towards building/painting up that can also be somewhat competitive.


+ HQ +

Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight: Warlord Trait: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Sanctuary

Lord Kaldor Draigo: Gate of Infinity, Sanctuary

+ Troops +

Strike Squad : Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchion): 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Strike Squad : Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchion): 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Strike Squad: Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchion): 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

+ Heavy Support +

Purgation Squad: Gate of Infinity
. 4x Purgator (Psilencer): 4x Psilencer
. Purgator Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Purgation Squad Gate of Infinity
. 4x Purgator (Psilencer): 4x Psilencer
. Purgator Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

+ Flyer +

Stormraven Gunship 2x Hurricane Bolter, 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin multi-melta

Stormraven Gunship 2x Hurricane Bolter, 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin multi-melta

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback: Twin Assault Cannon

Razorback Twin Assault Cannon

Razorback Twin Assault Cannon

Very solid list. I think Draigo is unnecessary in this build, but if you like him, he's never bad. You could put in a Techmarine to heal the GM, or replace Draigo with a Chaplain or cheaper GM. I'd also consider Lascannons on your Stormravens; you have a lot of good anti-infantry, but a bit more anti-tank could be great.

Huh a techmarine sounds really good to help keep the the GM alive. My only worry is trying to keep him close to the GMDK since I'd probably end up putting the GMDK in reserves. How do you play it? A Chaplain or a cheaper GM both sound good.
I was also thinking about Lascannons, but I was considering putting them on the Razorbacks. What do you think about Lascannons on the Stormravens and the Razorbacks?

Thor0298 wrote:
I'm about to build up my first strike squad box and was thinking dual falchions and storm bolters. Possibly a heavy weapon in there too. How do you guys like loading out your strikes squads?

Exactly as you've described is how I'm planning on doing mine. I'd leave the heavies out of the squad, though, unless you're going to run Purgatation/Purifiers. The reason for that being you lose your melee attacks and your shooting at full strength while on the move. A storm bolter is only 2 fewer shots than a psilincer when in rapid fire range, and you want to attack when you're that close anyway.

Any tips on how best to deal with T7 vehicles?

I went up against a triple wave serpent list and a hemlock yesterday. I had very little answer for it as he was advancing the serpents giving me -1 to hit them and moving and firing psycannons is at -1 as well. I was relying on gating and charging but once the GMDK got focus fired into oblivion I was failing 9" charges all game.