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Hey guys - quick question how would a GK army deal with Chaos Spawn?

 Aeros wrote:
Hey guys - quick question how would a GK army deal with Chaos Spawn?

Pretty easily, I imagine. They have all sorts of weapons that deal multiple wounds. Psilencers or close combat are probably some of the best options.

By the way, I've got the enhanced edition of the codex and it seems that there's a mistake in it. Falchions are missing the rule that gives you +1 attack for using two of them. The rule is still in the paper edition of the codex, so they remain the obvious weapon choice for almost everyone.

 Nithaniel wrote:
I'm still having trouble against Hemlock WF's. Any benefit in running a Stormhawk?

Vs Hemlocks I don't think they is a better option.

I've been using a Beta strike list to some good effect recently.

Hq Valdus
HQ GM, psilencer, halberd relic
Hq Brother Captain
El venerable dread, twin lascannon, missile
El venerable dread, twin lascannon, missile
Tr 10 strike, halberd
Tr 5 strike, halberd
Tr 5 strike sword, 2 Psilencers
Tr 5 strike, falchions
Tr 5 strike, sword, 2 Psilencers
Fa 5 Interceptors, falchions
Fa 5 interceptors, falchions
HV 5 purgation, 4 Psilencers
HV 5 purgation, 4 Psilencers

I deploy the ven dreads, both purgation, both interceptors and the brother captain. Everything else in reserve. I try to deploy with everything out of LOS if I can. I can use Astral aim on a dread to still shoot out of Los.

When the beta strike comes I drop the other 7 units, shunt up the two interceptors and gate a purgation squad. That puts 10 units surrounding the enemy.

T7 I can focus down through shooting or assault. T8 gives me trouble so that is why I have halberds. Halberds plus Hammerhand give me a chance to take down T8. The dreads help also, but I have found lascannons and missiles to be unreliable. To big a swing on their damage tables. Halberds make a nice backup.

The smites really begin to take their toll on the enemy. The brother captain gives my firebase 24" range smites so when the beta strike comes down the firebase can start to move out and provide more damage.

Against hordes I have sent a lone purgation squad up and/or a 5 man strike to clear a path for the beta strike on turn 1, then come in on turn 2-3 if needed.

It's not a perfect list, but it's fun, unpredictable and good in maelstrom.

DarthDiggler wrote:

T7 I can focus down through shooting or assault. T8 gives me trouble so that is why I have halberds. Halberds plus Hammerhand give me a chance to take down T8.

Halberds+Hammerhand vs T8 with 3+ Save is ~4.89 wounds per 10 man squad.
Falchions+Hammerhand vs T8 with 3+ Save is ~6.22 wounds per 10 man squad.

Now granted, vs T8/3+ without Hammerhand full Halberds are *slightly* better than full Falchions (~3.26 vs ~3.11) but that's only due to the Justicar so if that difference bothers you give the Justicar a Halberd and the other dudes Falchions. Against T8/3+ that squad will do ~3.26 without Hammerhand (same as full Halberds) and ~6.22 with Hammerhand (same as Full Falchions), the best of both worlds!

As an added bonus they'll perform better than full Halberds against everything else also.

Just a random thought, but how much more balanced would Falchions be if they were AP-1 instead of 2?

They'd be kinda trash then. I'd just use halberds because we actually do need the ap to be even mildly threatening in melee.

what you're proposing is a stormbolter in melee essentially.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Just a random thought, but how much more balanced would Falchions be if they were AP-1 instead of 2?

Yeah the balance between the Nemesis weapons is pretty good right now. Swords are mathematically still the worst, but aren't garbage. I run a squad of Falchions and a squad of Halberds. I'd run both as Falchions but the ability to crack a Knight open with my basic troops is too good. Halberds with Hammerhand do a lot of work against T8, particularly if they're close enough to a GM for that re-roll, and/or close to an Ancient for an extra attack.

I just had a 1000pt against a Khorne mostly Daemon army. I thought it would be a cake walk but it was very close. I finished deployment first but he seized the initiative. My stormraven then nearly went down with my doomglaive and a squad of PAGKs still inside. The Paladins were a massive save took down his warlord and another big daemon in cc taking out some more wounds with SBs and smite but eventually went down in blaze of glory. Stormraven was naff after it was crippled it eventually whimpered and died in the endgame. Doomglaive took down one Daemon with support from GMNDK but then got done by a defiler. Heroic intervention by the GMNDK destroyed that defiler though. The Purifiers were fairly pants, rolled ones for every successful purifying flame though they did basically eliminate a unit of bikes with SBs. As usual the GMNDK was an absolute hero, took down several big daemons and survived all 6 turns along with the purifiers and two enemy bikes.

Very fun but my GK list doesn't do too well when it loses the initiative.

Falchions are easily the best on 1 attack models (against anything with T8 or lower,) thanks to volume-of-attacks being doubled. On 2 attack models, Falchions level off pretty well with the other choices, (With Halberds doing slightly better against T5 or T8+ and 3+/2+ models, and Falchions doing better against T4 or lower and T6-7,) and on 3 attack models like Paladins, you're better off with a Halberd in most situations, with Falchions getting an edge only against stuff with T6-7 (thanks to the dumb way that the to-wound chart works now).

Waaaghpower wrote:
Falchions are easily the best on 1 attack models (against anything with T8 or lower,) thanks to volume-of-attacks being doubled. On 2 attack models, Falchions level off pretty well with the other choices, (With Halberds doing slightly better against T5 or T8+ and 3+/2+ models, and Falchions doing better against T4 or lower and T6-7,) and on 3 attack models like Paladins, you're better off with a Halberd in most situations, with Falchions getting an edge only against stuff with T6-7 (thanks to the dumb way that the to-wound chart works now).

This is my view too. Anyone in power armour is better off with falchions and trying to cast hammerhand - though note that of course you can only do this once in matched play. That should be ok though unless your opponent's army is somehow all T8.

3 attacks is where having a halberd starts to look like a better option than just having the 4th swing. Even then the halberd is only better against T4, 5, 8 and 9 - though this does account for a lot of stuff. And give a hammer to the Paragon.

Speaking of hammers, It seems to me that they are a terrible option for dreadknights. I fought a couple last night and they tend to miss a lot and not necessarily wound that well. 4+ to hit isn't reliable enough and S12 meant they needed 3s to wound my dreadnoughts. A Dreadknight looks like it ought to beat a contemptor in combat, and it costs quite a lot more (partly due to having far more firepower, to be fair) but it felt like my marines were better off.

 Nithaniel wrote:
I'm still having trouble against Hemlock WF's. Any benefit in running a Stormhawk?

The benefits to Stormhawks are that they are cheap, super hard to hurt, and very killy versus other flyers. The downsides are a lack of hover mode and its barely average versus infantry.

SJ

Waaaghpower wrote:
Falchions are easily the best on 1 attack models (against anything with T8 or lower,) thanks to volume-of-attacks being doubled. On 2 attack models, Falchions level off pretty well with the other choices, (With Halberds doing slightly better against T5 or T8+ and 3+/2+ models, and Falchions doing better against T4 or lower and T6-7,) and on 3 attack models like Paladins, you're better off with a Halberd in most situations, with Falchions getting an edge only against stuff with T6-7 (thanks to the dumb way that the to-wound chart works now).

I'm trying to do the maths on whether falchions or halberds are better on Paladins, and I'm not getting to the same conclusion as you, can you check if I'm doing something wrong here?

3 attacks, hitting on 3's

Against T3
Falchions-> 1.724 wounds
Halberds-> 1.3068 wounds

Against T4
Falchions -> 1.32 wounds
Halberd->1.3068 wounds

Against T5
Falchions -> 0.8712 wounds
Halberds -> 0.99 wounds

Against T6
Falchions -> 0.8712 wounds
Halberds -> 0.6534 wounds

As far as I can see only T5 is in favour of halberds, that's why I opted for falchions on my Paladins, but I'm a bit confused now that 2 of you have commented halberds are generally the better choice on 3 attack models, have I worked this out wrong?

With hammerhand, Falchions are better against everything with Paladins.

Against T3
Falchions-> 2.19 wounds
Halberd-> 1.6434 wounds

Against T4
Falchions-> 1.7424 wounds
Halberds-> 1.6434 wounds

Against T5
Falchions-> 1.32 wounds
Halberds -> 1.3068 wounds

Against T6
Falchions-> 1.32 wounds
Halberds-> 0.99 wounds

Against T7
Falchions -> 1.32 wounds
Halberds-> 0.99 wounds

Your math matches what I've seen of other math on the issue so I'll vouch for it

sadhvikv wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Falchions are easily the best on 1 attack models (against anything with T8 or lower,) thanks to volume-of-attacks being doubled. On 2 attack models, Falchions level off pretty well with the other choices, (With Halberds doing slightly better against T5 or T8+ and 3+/2+ models, and Falchions doing better against T4 or lower and T6-7,) and on 3 attack models like Paladins, you're better off with a Halberd in most situations, with Falchions getting an edge only against stuff with T6-7 (thanks to the dumb way that the to-wound chart works now).

I'm trying to do the maths on whether falchions or halberds are better on Paladins, and I'm not getting to the same conclusion as you, can you check if I'm doing something wrong here?

3 attacks, hitting on 3's

Against T3
Falchions-> 1.724 wounds
Halberds-> 1.3068 wounds

Against T4
Falchions -> 1.32 wounds
Halberd->1.3068 wounds

Against T5
Falchions -> 0.8712 wounds
Halberds -> 0.99 wounds

Against T6
Falchions -> 0.8712 wounds
Halberds -> 0.6534 wounds

As far as I can see only T5 is in favour of halberds, that's why I opted for falchions on my Paladins, but I'm a bit confused now that 2 of you have commented halberds are generally the better choice on 3 attack models, have I worked this out wrong?

With hammerhand, Falchions are better against everything with Paladins.

Against T3
Falchions-> 2.19 wounds
Halberd-> 1.6434 wounds

Against T4
Falchions-> 1.7424 wounds
Halberds-> 1.6434 wounds

Against T5
Falchions-> 1.32 wounds
Halberds -> 1.3068 wounds

Against T6
Falchions-> 1.32 wounds
Halberds-> 0.99 wounds

Against T7
Falchions -> 1.32 wounds
Halberds-> 0.99 wounds

I... Derped out and thought that Halberds were AP-3. Whoops.

Nithaniel wrote:Any tips on how best to deal with T7 vehicles?

I went up against a triple wave serpent list and a hemlock yesterday. I had very little answer for it as he was advancing the serpents giving me -1 to hit them and moving and firing psycannons is at -1 as well. I was relying on gating and charging but once the GMDK got focus fired into oblivion I was failing 9" charges all game.

Our Flyers are our best anti-tank. The Storm Raven can take the Multi-Melta & Lascannon option and also comes with the Missiles.

The Stormhawk is also a great option as it hits most things on a 4+ and packs 2 shots with its Las-talon which is basiclly a short ranged Lascannon. It can also take the Skyhammer Missile Launcher which has 3 shots that hits flyers on a 3+ and does D3 damage per wound. It adds a lot that we are missing.

 Sinji wrote:

Nithaniel wrote:Any tips on how best to deal with T7 vehicles?

I went up against a triple wave serpent list and a hemlock yesterday. I had very little answer for it as he was advancing the serpents giving me -1 to hit them and moving and firing psycannons is at -1 as well. I was relying on gating and charging but once the GMDK got focus fired into oblivion I was failing 9" charges all game.

Our Flyers are our best anti-tank. The Storm Raven can take the Multi-Melta & Lascannon option and also comes with the Missiles.

The Stormhawk is also a great option as it hits most things on a 4+ and packs 2 shots with its Las-talon which is basiclly a short ranged Lascannon. It can also take the Skyhammer Missile Launcher which has 3 shots that hits flyers on a 3+ and does D3 damage per wound. It adds a lot that we are missing.

I'm not sure why you would get -1 to hit a wave serpent that advanced. That's not normally the case, and I can't see anything about it in the wave serpent's rules. There are some eldar skimmers with a built in -1 to hit, but wave serpents aren't them.

Stormhawks actually get +1 to hit anything that can fly. If using the icarus stormcannon or the skyhammer missiles, they hit things that can fly but are not hard to hit on a 2+. The downside is that they hit other units on a 4+, as all their guns are heavy and they have to move every turn. Still, quite a lot of things fly and the stormhawk is a reasonably tough, cheap platform with a lot of guns on it.

I think probably the best armament for it is the las talon and skyhammer missiles. The icarus and the skyhammer are basically identical, but the las talon is the most powerful weapon it can have, by some distance. You could potentially upgrade the skyhammers to a typhoon, but that adds a lot to the price.

The other good thing about flyers for GKs is that they are happy to deploy on the board. Just about everything else would sooner deep strike. So by having a plane or two, and maybe even a flyer wing for a CP, you are putting some pretty resilient, shooty units down. The downside is that you auto-lose if you only have flyers in play at the end of a turn and they won't be scoring units once chapter approved comes out.

Mandragola wrote:

The other good thing about flyers for GKs is that they are happy to deploy on the board. Just about everything else would sooner deep strike. So by having a plane or two, and maybe even a flyer wing for a CP, you are putting some pretty resilient, shooty units down.

Just want to point out, not trying to nitpick, but when you're adding up units on the board and units in deep strike, flying units count as units in deep strike (reserves) because they're not boots on the ground (for the purposes of doing math).

So if you have 3 flying units on the table, you need at least 3 squads on the board physically. And at that point, for every unit in deep strike, you need another on the table.

Meaning, the more flyers you bring, the less you actually deep strike.

Models embarked inside flyers can make a decent beta strike, but you don't have deep strike Alpha with flyers.

 Marmatag wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

The other good thing about flyers for GKs is that they are happy to deploy on the board. Just about everything else would sooner deep strike. So by having a plane or two, and maybe even a flyer wing for a CP, you are putting some pretty resilient, shooty units down.

Just want to point out, not trying to nitpick, but when you're adding up units on the board and units in deep strike, flying units count as units in deep strike (reserves) because they're not boots on the ground (for the purposes of doing math).

Really? Can you provide a source for that?

My understanding is that flyers are deployed normally on the table at the start of the game, and each one counts as a unit set up. The only rules I'm aware of additionally for flyers affect losing by sudden death - which is an entirely separate issue - and that they won't be able to score once the matched play rules are revised.

I can see that if you were somehow holding a flyer in reserve, then of course it wouldn't count as one of your deployed units. But that isn't normally the case.

 Marmatag wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

The other good thing about flyers for GKs is that they are happy to deploy on the board. Just about everything else would sooner deep strike. So by having a plane or two, and maybe even a flyer wing for a CP, you are putting some pretty resilient, shooty units down.

Just want to point out, not trying to nitpick, but when you're adding up units on the board and units in deep strike, flying units count as units in deep strike (reserves) because they're not boots on the ground (for the purposes of doing math).

So if you have 3 flying units on the table, you need at least 3 squads on the board physically. And at that point, for every unit in deep strike, you need another on the table.

Meaning, the more flyers you bring, the less you actually deep strike.

Models embarked inside flyers can make a decent beta strike, but you don't have deep strike Alpha with flyers.

I can't find any reference to this rule? Will massively affect the way I play, so please can you point me in the direction of where this is mentioned?

sadhvikv wrote:


I can't find any reference to this rule? Will massively affect the way I play, so please can you point me in the direction of where this is mentioned?

There is nothing in the rules which states this. I had someone try to argue this during a game last week and they were unable to justify anything once we read into it. Even the proposed changes which will be coming soon do not interact with the reserve/reinforcement rules in any way as far as we know.

Could all change once we get the new matched play rules from chapter approved, but I doubt it.

As far as I can tell there is no rule (or errata'd rule) that states what @Marmatag is saying, however do remember than if you end the turn with nothing but Flyers on the board you lose because of Sudden Death (from the main rules FaQ/Errata).

 Marmatag wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

The other good thing about flyers for GKs is that they are happy to deploy on the board. Just about everything else would sooner deep strike. So by having a plane or two, and maybe even a flyer wing for a CP, you are putting some pretty resilient, shooty units down.

Just want to point out, not trying to nitpick, but when you're adding up units on the board and units in deep strike, flying units count as units in deep strike (reserves) because they're not boots on the ground (for the purposes of doing math).

So if you have 3 flying units on the table, you need at least 3 squads on the board physically. And at that point, for every unit in deep strike, you need another on the table.

Meaning, the more flyers you bring, the less you actually deep strike.

Models embarked inside flyers can make a decent beta strike, but you don't have deep strike Alpha with flyers.

This does not work the way you're describing

Does a Flyer in hover mode count as on the table? Stormhawks can't hover.

SJ

Of course it does, it counts as on the table even if it is not hovering.

The FAQ for the core rulebook includes errata stating that anything with the flyer battlefield role no longer counts as a unit on the table for purposes of sudden death.

Additionally, the new rule in chapter approved (which is not yet out by the way, we've only been given a preview) is called 'Boots on the ground' and prevents any unit with the flyer battlefield role from claiming objectives.

Neither of those say anything about reserves or reinforcements and frankly I'm not sure why everyone is getting confused.

Ok good to clear that one up then.

So yeah. I continue to think that flyers are a good option for GKs because they are happy to deploy.

They also make really good bubble wrap for any other units you might have. They can't be charged, which messes up the plans of anyone who wants to deep strike in and attack.

Do units inside flyer (and other transports) count as being on the board? For example, If I have Dreadnought and PAGKs in a stormraven on the board, I can deepstrike three units right?

RobHampster wrote:
Do units inside flyer (and other transports) count as being on the board? For example, If I have Dreadnought and PAGKs in a stormraven on the board, I can deepstrike three units right?

No - units in transports do not count as a deployment drop - nor do they count as being on the table. This would count as one drop.

They can however - hide behind something under the raven and embark in the raven turn 1.This is what I try to use my raven to do. Strikes are really effective to use like this because 10 strike squad marines getting into CC turn 2 is pretty devastating.

 Xenomancers wrote:

RobHampster wrote:
Do units inside flyer (and other transports) count as being on the board? For example, If I have Dreadnought and PAGKs in a stormraven on the board, I can deepstrike three units right?

No - units in transports do not count as a deployment drop - nor do they count as being on the table. This would count as one drop.

They can however - hide behind something under the raven and embark in the raven turn 1.This is what I try to use my raven to do. Strikes are really effective to use like this because 10 strike squad marines getting into CC turn 2 is pretty devastating.

This is mostly incorrect. RobHamster is right.

The two units embarked in the Stormraven, + the Stormraven itself count towards the 50% of units that must be deployed on the table.

You are right in that all three units count as 1 drop for deployment purposes.

Mandragola wrote:

I'm not sure why you would get -1 to hit a wave serpent that advanced. That's not normally the case, and I can't see anything about it in the wave serpent's rules. There are some eldar skimmers with a built in -1 to hit, but wave serpents aren't them.

He had the vectored engines upgrade that means opponents subtract 1 from hit rolls for ranged attacks that target it if it advanced.

It's an expensive upgrade but we were playing Power levels so...