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https://m.imgur.com/a/tjmtr

So I'm not super surprised with unforgiven for deathwing. Should be solid and being immune to morale seems like something pretty valuable. Jink seems pretty bad now, while conceptually it's a decent ability how often are bikers taking lascannon shots? Plus unless bikes bolters and plasma talons are assault it's gonna hurt to use it. Bonus to OW seems gone which seems like a pretty big nerf to greenwing. Sammael has some decent abilities but jink and iron halo is a nonbo and his plasma cannon overcharge seems super crappy since it wipes him.

it's possiable chapter tactics are covered on a differant page so greenwing may still have it's bonus.

I'm really just waiting for the points. We've seen what vanilla marines cost, and what their weapons do, so we can surmise most of our list off of that.

I expect bike squads to go up by about 20 points depending on the loadout, and god knows how much Black Knights are going to cost. SM bike + Twin Plasma Guns + CC weapon = 55 points, so I expect them to cost at least that much. Combined with the loss of durability from Jink, it's hard not to be a bit pessimistic about Ravenwing. At least they can now shoot all of their weapons and won't blow themselves up unless they overcharge.

Deathwing might be in a much better place in terms of value. Deathwing Knights could easily be the new standout unit in the DA codex, depending on how much they cost.

BrianDavion wrote:
it's possiable chapter tactics are covered on a differant page so greenwing may still have it's bonus.

The chapter tactics thing is a possibility, we'll have to see how it turns out. Not sure what that would do to help ravenwing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Luciferian wrote:
I'm really just waiting for the points. We've seen what vanilla marines cost, and what their weapons do, so we can surmise most of our list off of that.

I expect bike squads to go up by about 20 points depending on the loadout, and god knows how much Black Knights are going to cost. SM bike + Twin Plasma Guns + CC weapon = 55 points, so I expect them to cost at least that much. Combined with the loss of durability from Jink, it's hard not to be a bit pessimistic about Ravenwing. At least they can now shoot all of their weapons and won't blow themselves up unless they overcharge.

Deathwing might be in a much better place in terms of value. Deathwing Knights could easily be the new standout unit in the DA codex, depending on how much they cost.

Yeah I'm pretty worried that my giant pile of ravenwing are gonna be pretty crap.

Me too : \

I guess we won't know until we see everything, but it's not really looking great so far. Ravenwing are going to be exceptionally expensive, single wound models, with impressive firepower but only slightly better than MEQ durability. Unless they have some really nice auras it's going to be hard to justify taking them.

 Luciferian wrote:
Me too : \

I guess we won't know until we see everything, but it's not really looking great so far. Ravenwing are going to be exceptionally expensive, single wound models, with impressive firepower but only slightly better than MEQ durability. Unless they have some really nice auras it's going to be hard to justify taking them.

I mean they could be priced appropriately, but if jink is all they have I still see that as a failure since that's supposed to be part of what makes the DA unique and right now it's basically just a biker.

Agreed. I'm also curious to see what benefit the darkshroud and company standard gives, or if there are any new character types that will add to survivability.

looking forward to the changes. Never got a chance to field my RW in 7th so nice to go into 8th without being the cheesy list. I'll take it.

Also curious about the darkshroud. I'm also glad my second darkshroud was only partially built so now I can make it a LS vengeance instead.

 bullyboy wrote:
looking forward to the changes. Never got a chance to field my RW in 7th so nice to go into 8th without being the cheesy list. I'll take it.

Also curious about the darkshroud. I'm also glad my second darkshroud was only partially built so now I can make it a LS vengeance instead.

Don't get me wrong they needed toned down, just don't want to see them be expensive generic bikers/speeders.

I know it!! All this years of spamming Deathwing and Deathwing Knights has been vindicated! Actually, the only Ravenwing that I have are the Dark Vengeance ones

But I can empathize with my fellow BlackKnight DarkAngels players

Fortunately I have some Deathwing too, but they aren't even assembled yet. Definitely time to buy some DW Knights either way.

This appears to be the end times for all the jinking, but maybe not cause ap is all changed up now

Still sadly not enough info to make heads or tails of it.

Marine bikes appear to have gone up in cost but we have yet to see their stats, so it is hard to tell why this may have occurred. And without that key bit of data, it is hard to know how viable the RW will be. Without that, we don't know whether the new Jink is warranted. For all we know, bikes went to 2W (to be sure, naked, they now cost more than a standard terminator before equipment, which is at least a bit fishy).

Terminators are looking pretty good. Standard ones are 26 a pop (before weapons) and Chaos and WG terminators are 31 prior to equipment. I'm guess all of ours will have Unforgiven and run closer to the 31 end of things. But in return for paying a bit more than we did at the beginning of 3rd Edition (~53 points assuming a 31 point base) a tactical terminator is now a powerhouse with a 4-shot bolt weapon and a fist that strikes first on the charge. Combined with a bit of synergy from, say, a Librarian and getting a charge off of teleport seems quite doable. That extra wound combined with a lot of counter-termi weapons getting a price hike or a nerf is a pretty huge deal.

Meanwhile, DW Knights are starting to sound pretty tasty if the rumours are to be believed, and shield wall is no longer a detriment when blast weapons come around (if they still have it). If they are costed well and sporting that rumoured 3 wounds, then we may have a real powerful specialist assault unit on our hands.

With a lot of minor heroes getting created, I'll be interested to see the variety DA can get. DW apothecaries and standard bearers should provide a beefy buff machine for our lines. And perhaps a DW company champion will be able to hold their own in combat rather than acting as a challenge speedbump.

Sammael is looking quite monstrous and I'll be interested in seeing how Sableclaw turns out.

And the coolest bit? In 2nd, Dark Angels used to be able to run a pure speeder RW list, in 8th we can do it again with the Outrider detachment.

The early snippets look promising, but it is still way too little info to make a call. We need more leaks!

Darkagl1 wrote:
https://m.imgur.com/a/tjmtr
Sammael has some decent abilities but jink and iron halo is a nonbo and his plasma cannon overcharge seems super crappy since it wipes him.

Well 1/36 chance(well bit higher in situations where you have penalty for hitting and reroll non-1 failures). Risky but at times might be worth it.

Well, bikes should be a pretty decent choice, looks like they went to 2W standard (only checked RW so far in the mega-leak, but I figure it's universal). Yeah, nerfing jink was the right move.

And while the Knights aren't 3W monsters and lost their T5 shield wall (at least I didn't see any of that), they gained a much more potent melee attack. Basically, the mace of absolution is now x2 strength and no penalty to hit (the flail is the one that causes spillover damage). So with the extra wound their survival is a bit better than before, but their offensive output is massively increased and no longer relegated to one turn.

Oh, and that Deathwing Champ, holy .

Too bad the site crashed before I got to point costs.

Edit - Here we go!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Decided to add the captures from the DA section since we have 'em now.

See the post above and enjoy.

Highlight for me? Deathwing cost the same as normal terminators.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
Well, bikes should be a pretty decent choice, looks like they went to 2W standard (only checked RW so far in the mega-leak, but I figure it's universal). Yeah, nerfing jink was the right move.

And while the Knights aren't 3W monsters and lost their T5 shield wall (at least I didn't see any of that), they gained a much more potent melee attack. Basically, the mace of absolution is now x2 strength and no penalty to hit (the flail is the one that causes spillover damage). So with the extra wound their survival is a bit better than before, but their offensive output is massively increased and no longer relegated to one turn.

Oh, and that Deathwing Champ, holy .

Too bad the site crashed before I got to point costs.

Edit - Here we go!

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Decided to add the captures from the DA section since we have 'em now.

See the post above and enjoy.

Highlight for me? Deathwing cost the same as normal terminators.

Yeah I'm feeling pretty disappointed right now. Bikes of all sorts have 2 wounds. So the only difference between ravenwing bikes and normal ones is jink and that ability seems pretty terrible right now. Don't get me wrong had to be nerfed, but it could have been -1 to hit after advancing as in days of old and would have been fine imo. As it is now unless you're gonna get lascannoned it isn't worth it like ever. I would have liked to see the knights get a bit more survivability, but I do have to admit their attacks have moved on up, not sure if that's enough for them to be good or not. My real issue is the jink.

Well, Jink is pretty lame, but things aren't looking too bad overall. T5 W2 bikes are a nice surprise, and Black Knights are 5 points less than their actual points cost according to their wargear selection, and they're a Fast Attack choice, thank god!.

The cost of my army went up exactly 301 points overall, and it's because every command squad member is now a fairly expensive independent character. However, they get the wounds to match.

So it seems we lost a bit of flavor, but so did everyone else. I'm actually pretty happy so far, especially because Black Knights can essentially be taken as our "troop" option along with bike squads. I was very concerned they were going to be an elite choice.

My biggest issue is all other characters in the game lose a mortal wound or so for the new overcharged gets hot. However, for every single one of our characters, a single 1 loses us a 5-6W HQ unit outright. WHY? And why would I ever ever take the risk of overcharging that? Also, no overwatch shenanigans :/

JohnMarik wrote:
WHY? And why would I ever ever take the risk of overcharging that?

They won't. I am not even sure why they had to put that there.

JohnMarik wrote:
My biggest issue is all other characters in the game lose a mortal wound or so for the new overcharged gets hot. However, for every single one of our characters, a single 1 loses us a 5-6W HQ unit outright. WHY? And why would I ever ever take the risk of overcharging that?

Not really all that true. Cato Sicarius, Chaplain Grimaldus, Mephiston, Ulrik the Slayer, Lukas the Trickster, Colonel Straken, and any character drawing from the basic armoury all have the insta-kill on overcharge kind of plasma weapon.

The only ones that don't are either using the heavy plasma cannon (which deals mortal wounds) or have a unique weapon like Kharn's version that is always stuck on overcharge whether he wants it or not.

Characters aren't going to overcharge unless they are stacking re-rolls and/or the target really needs to die. This isn't a huge deal and it is something everyone else has to deal with as well (and there are plenty of special characters equipped with plasma weapons that aren't DA). Overcharging isn't something you do lightly and the base stats of plasma weapons are perfectly fine, packing a lot of punch. There is nothing wrong with this, it shouldn't be assumed that overcharge is the default mode and the relatively high risk of it is a great knock-on effect for the survivability of our tough 2-wound troops like terminators and bikes.

Also, no overwatch shenanigans :/

In all honesty? No other marine has their shenanigans, just like every other army in the game. These will likely come when the codices do. Until then, enjoy having a list that doesn't push you toward certain builds and unit selections with chapter tactics. Every army is in the same boat right now. This is the black codex era of 2nd Edition all over again. It has been a while since we've had all the calcified cruft shaken off of our army lists. I'm going to enjoy the extra bit of freedom of choice that has been so lacking from our last several codices. No more forced DW/RW union and we finally have parity between all the marine lists.

The simplicity being shared across the board is actually kind of liberating in my eyes.

The new Ravenwing list is Sammael and as many Black Knights as you can fit

 Luciferian wrote:
Well, Jink is pretty lame, but things aren't looking too bad overall. T5 W2 bikes are a nice surprise, and Black Knights are 5 points less than their actual points cost according to their wargear selection, and they're a Fast Attack choice, thank god!.

The cost of my army went up exactly 301 points overall, and it's because every command squad member is now a fairly expensive independent character. However, they get the wounds to match.

So it seems we lost a bit of flavor, but so did everyone else. I'm actually pretty happy so far, especially because Black Knights can essentially be taken as our "troop" option along with bike squads. I was very concerned they were going to be an elite choice.

The thing is all other bikes have t5 and 2w. Jink is the only change between regular marine bikes and ravenwing and it's just such a meh version. Would have been so easy to say enemy has -1 to hit or you get +1 to armor save. Either would have been a solid non op special rule.

Darkagl1 wrote:


The thing is all other bikes have t5 and 2w. Jink is the only change between regular marine bikes and ravenwing and it's just such a meh version. Would have been so easy to say enemy has -1 to hit or you get +1 to armor save. Either would have been a solid non op special rule.

I totally get where you're coming from, but for me the mitigating factor is that pretty much nobody has anything really special going on for them. Everyone was made more the same, which is a bit more boring but is a great starting point to move forward with. Hopefully it's also temporary. Also, at least the Darkshroud does give -1 to hit.

 Luciferian wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:


The thing is all other bikes have t5 and 2w. Jink is the only change between regular marine bikes and ravenwing and it's just such a meh version. Would have been so easy to say enemy has -1 to hit or you get +1 to armor save. Either would have been a solid non op special rule.

I totally get where you're coming from, but for me the mitigating factor is that pretty much nobody has anything really special going on for them. Everyone was made more the same, which is a bit more boring but is a great starting point to move forward with. Hopefully it's also temporary. Also, at least the Darkshroud does give -1 to hit.

Hopefully it's temporary, but the impression I have is datasheets aren't changing in the codices, and I can't see how the ravenwing are anything special with that as the jink rule. Will have to see how it pans out.

In all honesty, in every previous edition (besides 6th/7th where they gave us a power unit that was deathstar-isable in the RWBK's) the main thing that has always, always tanked Deathwing and Ravenwing was that we paid a huge markup for getting a whole bunch of needless special rules.

This is what made marine bikers better than our normal RW for a long time. It is what made vanilla terminators better than ours for so long.

So is Jink not a huge boon? It isn't, but it also isn't breaking the bank. Basic RW are now only a point more expensive than basic bikers. Without teleport homers and a bunch of extra rules (dangerous terrain is largely gone, so the need for skilled rider is basically gone) they are now quite a bit more trim than they were before.

And while Jink isn't the best thing ever, it does have some neat synergies because of how assault weapons work now. You can advance and still fire assault weapons. This affords you the 5++ and still allows, say, plasma talons to hit on 4+. Same goes for flamers and meltas in standard squads. But of course with AP being the way it is, you wont always need that 5++ around either, so it is a bit of a tactical choice now.

DW are now basically just standard terminators that are immune to morale (which is basically a negligible effect compared to ATSKNF where it comes to small units). And because this is close enough for jazz, they aren't marked up at all from normal marine terminators while getting quite a few natural advantages (such as heavy weapons in assault units).

In some ways, by removing a lot of our extraneous special rules, they've gotten rid of the one-trick-pony that was dualwing, while making RW and DW cheap enough that vanilla can't just make the same force but with more guys and better performance. The real elite status of DW and RW is reflected in our terminator and biker mini-heroes as well as specialized units like Deathwing Knights and Ravenwing Black Knights. But by clearing off the cruft, they made the standard members of the 1st and 2nd company well worth taking in comparison to their vanilla brethren.

While I'm sure our codex will end up adding things back on, I can't stress how solid and viable this base is feeling. Our battle company stuff is cheap and has parity with vanilla marine stuff for the most part (because we're all pulling from the same basic pool of units). Our RW stuff isn't at a huge markup compared to vanilla marines while we retain a bunch of unique units that vanilla can't replicate for it. Our DW stuff has achieved points parity with vanilla terminators while retaining their characteristic flexibility.

Bland? Meh, maybe, everyone is back to black codex simplicity again. But viable in more than just a few weird formations? I think so. We are no longer "vanilla, but more expensive and less flexible" and I'm glad for that.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
In all honesty, in every previous edition (besides 6th/7th where they gave us a power unit that was deathstar-isable in the RWBK's) the main thing that has always, always tanked Deathwing and Ravenwing was that we paid a huge markup for getting a whole bunch of needless special rules.

This is what made marine bikers better than our normal RW for a long time. It is what made vanilla terminators better than ours for so long.

So is Jink not a huge boon? It isn't, but it also isn't breaking the bank. Basic RW are now only a point more expensive than basic bikers. Without teleport homers and a bunch of extra rules (dangerous terrain is largely gone, so the need for skilled rider is basically gone) they are now quite a bit more trim than they were before.

And while Jink isn't the best thing ever, it does have some neat synergies because of how assault weapons work now. You can advance and still fire assault weapons. This affords you the 5++ and still allows, say, plasma talons to hit on 4+. Same goes for flamers and meltas in standard squads. But of course with AP being the way it is, you wont always need that 5++ around either, so it is a bit of a tactical choice now.

DW are now basically just standard terminators that are immune to morale (which is basically a negligible effect compared to ATSKNF where it comes to small units). And because this is close enough for jazz, they aren't marked up at all from normal marine terminators while getting quite a few natural advantages (such as heavy weapons in assault units).

In some ways, by removing a lot of our extraneous special rules, they've gotten rid of the one-trick-pony that was dualwing, while making RW and DW cheap enough that vanilla can't just make the same force but with more guys and better performance. The real elite status of DW and RW is reflected in our terminator and biker mini-heroes as well as specialized units like Deathwing Knights and Ravenwing Black Knights. But by clearing off the cruft, they made the standard members of the 1st and 2nd company well worth taking in comparison to their vanilla brethren.

While I'm sure our codex will end up adding things back on, I can't stress how solid and viable this base is feeling. Our battle company stuff is cheap and has parity with vanilla marine stuff for the most part (because we're all pulling from the same basic pool of units). Our RW stuff isn't at a huge markup compared to vanilla marines while we retain a bunch of unique units that vanilla can't replicate for it. Our DW stuff has achieved points parity with vanilla terminators while retaining their characteristic flexibility.

Bland? Meh, maybe, everyone is back to black codex simplicity again. But viable in more than just a few weird formations? I think so. We are no longer "vanilla, but more expensive and less flexible" and I'm glad for that.

I mean don't get me wrong. We didn't need a metric crapton of special rules. Jink should be enough of a differentiator to make ravenwing more worthwhile than regular bikers, it as it stands now it seems too situational to me. Adding +1 armor or -1 hit both seem decently powerful while not gamebreaking and a really seem to present a meaningful choice. 5++ jink wasn't good enough to hold over time from 3rd edition and it's worse now than it was then. I get we may only be 1 or more than a standard biker but that 1 point for the jink doesn't super seem worth it and 1 point more doesn't seem to reflect the elite nature of the ravenwing compared to regular marine bikers.

Overall, I am ok with the new DA rules.
Yes, BKs are a bit different, DWKs lost their shield wall which I really liked, but on the other hand Sammael got a huge buff and I really like that. I also like the greater damage output on our showcase units.

What really feths me up is, that the fluff is in no way represented anymore.

Bikes were always delivering teleport homers for the Deathwing to strike with precision.
Now everybody can do that.
Why can't bikes have something like the new Tau Beacons? (1 use Deepstrike 6'' around the Beacon, regardless how close other units are. Beacon gets removed as soon as an enemy unit gets as close as 9 '')

Aeri wrote:
Overall, I am ok with the new DA rules.
Yes, BKs are a bit different, DWKs lost their shield wall which I really liked, but on the other hand Sammael got a huge buff and I really like that. I also like the greater damage output on our showcase units.

What really feths me up is, that the fluff is in no way represented anymore.

Bikes were always delivering teleport homers for the Deathwing to strike with precision.
Now everybody can do that.
Why can't bikes have something like the new Tau Beacons? (1 use Deepstrike 6'' around the Beacon, regardless how close other units are. Beacon gets removed as soon as an enemy unit gets as close as 9 '')

Personally, I always hated the RW as teleport homers thing they tried pushing starting in 4th Edition. First, it was an outgrowth of Jervis Johnson wanting to make non-vanilla marines in to a more focused thing. This is around the time double-wing got pushed as "the way to play" and the battle companies got shoved off to the side. Meanwhile folks who ran pure RW or pure DW suddenly found their force pointless without the other. Then 5th came, gears shifted, and the 4th edition codex (along with the Chaos dex) became odd artifacts of a failed design paradigm.

When our 6th Edition codex came along, they decided to double down on dualwing and in doing so they doubled down on Dark Angels being one trick ponies. But the worst part was that terminators sucked, and DW were basically more expensive terminators with not much extra to offer. Meanwhile RWBK's were insanely powerful. So oddly, dualwing got better as Deathwing were used less, making those teleport homers, given to us in 4th to push an army paradigm no one asked for, ever more vestigial.

And GW retconned fluff, adding in things to justify the dualwing where it never existed before. Our 2nd Company became a slightly outer inner circle, yadda yadda.

It was neat, but it was badly handled. By tying the DW and the RW so close together, they invalidated other potential combinations. RW paid a premium to bring in teleporting terminators, so fielding battle company units alongside them was a waste. DW were entirely tied to the idea of teleport assault and actively penalized for deviating from any build that would let them use their TL'd alpha strike (anemic as it was). RWBKs only made it out the other end because of their insane death-star potential, the rest of the list was hopelessly mired in an absurdly reductive design paradigm foisted on us three editions prior at a time when the whole point was making us more limited and inflexible than vanilla.

This list is much closer to our 2nd Edition Angels of Death force. Deathwing aren't tied to any one tactic, they are just fearless terminators. RW are simply a skilled recon arm of the Chapter, not Deathwing Delivery Service. But the best part is, in 2nd we saw insane markup compared to already expensive marine units. In 8th, we get the fluff and flavour but without the exorbitant price tag. And then we have the added bonus of having DWK's and RWBK's along with the various mini-heroes and champions to give a lot more variety to our lists.

For the first time in a while pure DW and RW aren't leaving points on the table and they aren't overcosted to the point where marines can pull our shtick better than we can. No more vanilla biker hordes outperforming the RW because they can bring 25% more units. No more vanilla terminators outperforming DW because GW decided that replacing one immunity to morale with a (usually worse) immunity to morale cost 3-5 points per model.

Our codex will likely come along and pile more on, but the way the list is right now is better (for the list as a whole) than we've had since the transitional period before we got our own codex in 4e and were using the hybridized vanilla/DA list. But unlike that, this one is a lot closer to our flavour from 2nd Edition. This is basically our list from Codex: Angels of Death done right. Maybe the teleport assault thing gets brought back later as a stratagem or optional bit of gear with its own cost, but I pray we never get hobbled with a near mandatory "preferred tactic" ever again.

Well said, Ronin. I agree; I'll take a small loss of character in order to be more versatile.

Also, did anyone notice that some characters can replace weapons with any weapon on the melee list, and that all melee weapons are free? Which means my Interrogator Chaplain is getting that flail with spillover damage.

Edit: Never mind, another section states that the melee list is the generic Space Marine one.

if a wound spills over, does the next model get a safe?
Can I take the halberd of caliban on a IC on bike? that sounds pretty bad ass


Although sammael on Corvex might still be more powerfull because of the reroll in the shooting phase and the insane sword and firepower