Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Zande4 wrote:
Ah yep for the shrikes I can change it to 27 a into 18 hits into 6 wounds of those 6 wounds they have to be 5+ so 3 are rending doing 2 each and 3 are normal doing .5 each for 7.5

I think I'll have to redo the Tyrants chart for rending, doing it this way he's even better than before


I'm still unsure how you got 2.82

After fixing the bone head mistake of not being able to roll a 1 on 2d6 and factoring in D6 wounds is on an 11 or 12 I get

27.27% chance of 0
54.54% chance of 2 wounds = 1.09 wounds
18.18% chance of 3.5 wounds = .64 wounds
72.72% chance of an additional 2 wounds = 1.45 wounds
Total = 3.18

*Edit I'll repost the chart up but doing rending / toxin the correct way makes the Tyrant even more insane.

His best loadouts are down to 25.5 points per wounds and 2 of them comfortably kill a raven in 1 turn with smite / shoot / charge

Smite
6/11*2+2/11*3.5 = 1.72 Damage

Smite 4+ Zoanthropes
6/11*4+2/11*5.5 = 3.18 Damage

Maleceptor
6/11*2+3/11*3.5 = 2.05

So you are right, I guess. Thanks for checking! This makes them even better.

Astmeister has done a bunch of good ones

I am also very surprised that the points per damage is in favor of the 2x Devourers Tyrant. that the points per damage is in favor of the 2x Devourers Tyrant.

 Astmeister wrote:
I am also very surprised that the points per damage is in favor of the 2x Devourers Tyrant. that the points per damage is in favor of the 2x Devourers Tyrant.

I think the numbers fool you a bit there.

The guns are just so damn abysmal that any points you spend on them is taking away efficiency from the melee

A Hive Tyrant shooting a Stormraven is

.33 wounds with 2 Devourers 14 pts

.5 wounds with 2 Deathspitters 20 pts

.67 wounds with Heavy Venom Cannon 30 pts

.88 wounds with Strangle Thorn Cannon 38 pts

I think the guns are still worth it, just not worth shooting at the Raven.

I honestly think the Rending Claws will be FAQ'd at some point, working them out correctly they literally do twice as many wounds as 1 pair of Scything Talons to a Storm Raven. Toxin Sacs close the gap a little but it's not much at all.

Why do they have the exact same profile as the Scything Talons except you exchange re-roll 1s to hit for ALL failed wounds re-roll. On top of all that you get -AP6 and flat 3 damage on rolls of 6. They're vastly superior to Boneswords and Scything Talons in every way. If they were slightly more expensive I'd still take them, but they're friggin free!?

I tested most things in the codex against T3 of various flavours in addition to the chart i'd already posted.

Now straight numbers Genestealers are the best followed by Devilgants but realistically you'd never want to charge your stealers into combat against Conscripts, Kroot or Pox Walkers and Devilgants need a delivery method which is a hidden cost. Warriors and Raveners are also decent if you shoot then melee but it's much the same case as the stealers, the enemy is tying up your expensive unit so it's a win for them.

However! Coming in at 4th place overall when facing GEQ are Sky-Slashers / Rippers with Spinemaws. Not only are they fairly decent at it, they're quick with 12'' move or DS. They don't lose effectiveness as quick as gants via their 3 wounds and most importantly they're cheap! You couldn't care less if they got stuck in combat! Also while large masses of Hormagaunts may struggle to all get within range to actually attack, Rippers have large bases, realistically you're almost always getting the full squad into the fight phase from the get go. I only own 6 Sky-Slasher swarms but I'm definitely giving them a go. Good chance I'll be facing Conscripts or Kroot in my next match

Your Ripper idea seems interesting. Why not?
Also your clarifications on the shooting weapons make sense.

I think they just did not recognize that a Hive Tyrant can take Rending Claws at all. They were just considering the Broodlord for this weapon.
So I am pretty sure that the HT will lose the option of RC completely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am also quite sure at the moment that you miscalculated the Flyrant with 4x Scy Tals and Tox Sacs. Do not forget that he has 5 A with them +1 with the Tail and can reroll 1s to hit.

Scy Tals
5*(5/6+1/6*5/6)*(1/6*5/6*3+1/6*4) = 5.27 wounds

Tail
5/6*(1/6*1/3*2+1/6*1/3*3) = 0.23 wounds

Smite
as before 1.72 wounds

total
7.22 wounds

That seems pretty scary.

I get the same for the tail and smite.

For the talons I'm getting

5 attacks hitting at 97.2% (2+ re-rollable)

4.86 hits at 33.33% (STR 6 vs T7 = 5+)

1.62 wounds

Now half of that are 5+ and half are 6+. Half = D3 & Half = D3 + 1

.81 vs 83.3% chance of failure (3+ save vs -3 AP = 6+ save)

.68 wounds

.68 wounds * D3 (average of 2) = 1.35 unsaved wounds
.68 wounds * D3 + 1 (average of 2 + TS) = 2.03 wounds

3.38 wounds

Reading your formula, are you putting it as 3 wounds flat for the Scy Tals?

Hey guys if anyone is interested in writing a short unit review, it would be cool to have all of the units filled out in the OP. So if you'd like to have your 2 cents put into the OP, just PM Lance and we'll fill out the rest of the units!

Of course, all of the comments already made are open for discussion. Perhaps we should try and implement a grading system for how good the units are?

Zande4 wrote:I get the same for the tail and smite.

For the talons I'm getting

5 attacks hitting at 97.2% (2+ re-rollable)

4.86 hits at 33.33% (STR 6 vs T7 = 5+)

1.62 wounds

Now half of that are 5+ and half are 6+. Half = D3 & Half = D3 + 1

.81 vs 83.3% chance of failure (3+ save vs -3 AP = 6+ save)

.68 wounds

.68 wounds * D3 (average of 2) = 1.35 unsaved wounds
.68 wounds * D3 + 1 (average of 2 + TS) = 2.03 wounds

3.38 wounds

Reading your formula, are you putting it as 3 wounds flat for the Scy Tals?

Scything Talons are actually doing a flat 3 Damage. :-D

luke1705 wrote:Hey guys if anyone is interested in writing a short unit review, it would be cool to have all of the units filled out in the OP. So if you'd like to have your 2 cents put into the OP, just PM Lance and we'll fill out the rest of the units!

Of course, all of the comments already made are open for discussion. Perhaps we should try and implement a grading system for how good the units are?

I already sent you a PM.

I hope by "you" you mean Lance. Mostly because he's the one who updates the OP but also because I didn't get a PM from you

Yes sorry. I wrote to Lance... I hope. ;-)

Ah they are too, I've been playing them worse this whole time lol

Been using Biovores + a Harpy to drop spore mines around a unit, then charge it with the harpy. Then all the spore mines get a free 4" charge with no overwatch.

Not sure if that's the correct way to do that, but it's been working as a way to plop mortal wounds onto enemy anti-heavy tank like destroyers and predators.

If the unit doesn't die and remains in combat, the Harpy must fly away, so you can fly back over the unit and drop more mines down.

With spore mines I've been charging them one model at a time which gives opponent more chances to overwatch, but I think that's correct.

The only problem is mines can't charge the turn theyre created with those abilities. The y make a great screen but the timing of that doesnt work so well

Haven't had a chance to play, but I've always loved my Warrior heavy lists. Is this viable these days? My usual fun involves Warriors, Canifexes, and I just want the sexiness of the Exocrine.

I run a bit more shooty than most, because I face Guard and Marines a LOT, and need to do damage before I get into CC.

Love my Biovores. Still going to use them.

I'm one of those people that actually used Pyrovores before. Dropped in a pod RIGHT NEXT to someone.

I'm not going to Trygon/Mawloc with Genestealer tunnel people. Ain't my style.

So what do you guys think? Can I actually win games NOT using Tervigon spam, or tunnel strikes?

 Mattlov wrote:
Haven't had a chance to play, but I've always loved my Warrior heavy lists. Is this viable these days? My usual fun involves Warriors, Canifexes, and I just want the sexiness of the Exocrine.

I run a bit more shooty than most, because I face Guard and Marines a LOT, and need to do damage before I get into CC.

Love my Biovores. Still going to use them.

I'm one of those people that actually used Pyrovores before. Dropped in a pod RIGHT NEXT to someone.

I'm not going to Trygon/Mawloc with Genestealer tunnel people. Ain't my style.

So what do you guys think? Can I actually win games NOT using Tervigon spam, or tunnel strikes?

You're going to have a tough time outshooting guard, but the Pyrovore Pod strat is WAY better than it used to be. Biovores are different than they used to be but still good. Warriors are a ton more viable and more durable than they used to be.

Against marines, I think you'll probably do pretty well as long as your list can deal with vehicles. And I don't mean "I've got 3 venom cannons so I can totally kill a land raider" kind of dealing with vehicles. What if you run into 3 tanks? How do you plan on killing them?

If you can answer that, I think Tyranids cover everything else really well in spades.

Is the wording for the Malanthrope correct on it's datasheet that it only protects 'models' within 3''?
the venomthropes protect infantry UNITS within 3''

 benlac wrote:
Is the wording for the Malanthrope correct on it's datasheet that it only protects 'models' within 3''?
the venomthropes protect infantry UNITS within 3''

To be fair, we do not know.

1. What is odd is that the Malanthrope refers to models, not units. This could be interpreted to aply to mostly singel unit models of units who are hogging the malenthrope like a christmas tree.

2. It does say models, and not infantery spesificly. That it allows MC's to get the protection is not unlikly since it itself is an MC.

3. Probably that is the rule on the venomthropes it is refering to.

RAW or try to guestimate on the RAI. I am stil gonne parkingsitt my tervigon with it, and take wounds on the gaunts.

 benlac wrote:
Is the wording for the Malanthrope correct on it's datasheet that it only protects 'models' within 3''?
the venomthropes protect infantry UNITS within 3''

This was mentioned by Reece as a typo and I believe him. Furthermore, there is no mechanic for targeting models, so it either means nothing or it means units. Don't be too surprised when this is errata'd in the upcoming FAQ

In the FAQ, it was specified that the rule that protect characters from shooting also protect units with characters, so even by RAW the malanthrope should protect the whole unit.

A quite note on Overwatch.

Overwatch shots hit on a 6, ignoring all modifiers.

So, it doesn't matter about a Lictor, the Horror, or the presence of a Venomthrope, a 6 hits, regardless. It's a unique situation.

On the positive side, it also means that +1 modifiers to attack rolls are also discounted. Only 6s hit.

Wakshaani wrote:
A quite note on Overwatch.

Overwatch shots hit on a 6, ignoring all modifiers.

So, it doesn't matter about a Lictor, the Horror, or the presence of a Venomthrope, a 6 hits, regardless. It's a unique situation.

On the positive side, it also means that +1 modifiers to attack rolls are also discounted. Only 6s hit.

 Zande4 wrote:


6 -1 = 7? Or is a 6 always a hit?

A 6 is always a hit in Overwatch. If you cast Horror on something that hits on a 4+ and it attempts to shoot a Malanthroped Lictor it hits on a 7, so it can never hit.

Fun fact, space marines affected by The Horror can't shoot the Deathleaper if he's buffed by Venom/Malanthropes or penalised for Moving + Heavy

I think the most modifiers would be

-1 for moving with Heavy Weapons
-3 for Night Fighting 36" away
-1 for Venomthrope / Malanthrope
-1 for the Horror
-2 for The Deathleaper

Would make Farsight using the 5th Marker light buff hit on 9+

Yeah that's what I said, the other stuff wasn't to do with OW

So lets assume Hive Tyrant rending claws are free (/ alot cheaper than the scything talons) depending on how you group the point costs.)

Are the Sy-tals worth it for the re-roll 1's to hit and +1A?

I know it's a lot of points but it is a whole extra attack (which hits 97% of the time, when the tyrant isn't tired). Also a flat 3 damage, which I think is really underestimated.

Thoughts / alternative load outs (for the same or less points) ?

You loose the gun and also it is not much better from damage. I think this will just become valid, when the RC will not be allowed on a Tyrant.

Lets go with the rules as they are, please. I fully get that this may change, it may seem obvious and in error.

But at the end of the day it isn't functionally broken and it will have an impact on games and list building.

So would anyone like to comment on the cost/benefit of Hive Tyrant Sytals vs. Rending claws?

I actually doubt it'll change and I don't think it's a typo. It's cheaper and grants re-rolls of to wound, which is more statistically beneficial but +1 attack does grant re-rolls of 1, and 3 flat damage is absolutely better than d3.

On the whole, I don't think it's worth 31 more points for the Scytals, but I do think that if I were using a tyrant purely for melee, I would still go RC + ST

Well, the RC is better than the SC against T7+ targets. Even if you take 2 pairs of SC.
But the SC perform good at lower T. You have to also factor in that targets with T6- have often not so many wounds, so the wounds will be more important than the damage.
In this case the Scy Tals are worse than RC, except against T3- targets.

2x SC vs T3- / 3+ Save
3.38 wounds - 10.12 Damage

RC vs T3- / 3+ Save
2.81 wounds - 6.27 Damage

2x SC vs T5- / 3+ Save
2.7 wounds - 8.1 Damage

RC vs T5- / 3+ Save
2.6 wounds - 5.93 Damage

2x SC vs T6 / 3+ Save
2.02 wounds - 6.07 Damage

RC vs T6 / 3+ Save
2.22 wounds - 5.28 Damage

2x SC vs T7+ / 3+ Save
1.35 wounds - 4.05 Damage

RC vs T7+ / 3+ Save
1.7 wounds - 4.32 Damage


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the 2x SC even cost 41 points!

So what is a good single weapon = / less than the dual-Sy-tals... that can pair with the rending claws?

Re-roll 1's to hit are great with a 2+ to-hit model?

I'm thinking think with regards to a winged hive tyrant, so perhaps a ranged weapons as either Onslaught can be used or wing-enhanced movement is less of an issue. Pew pew

Now that all the ATC lists are up, I figure I'll post my list for the event this weekend.

Patriarch
Primus
20 Purestrains
18 Purestrains
18 Purestrains

Broodlord
Magus
29 Gants (10 Devourers)
3 rippers
3 rippers

Magus
Exocrine
Exocrine
Exocrine

Feel pretty good about this one in practice, here's hoping it does alright this weekend!

 jifel wrote:
Now that all the ATC lists are up, I figure I'll post my list for the event this weekend.

Patriarch
Primus
20 Purestrains
18 Purestrains
18 Purestrains

Broodlord
Magus
29 Gants (10 Devourers)
3 rippers
3 rippers

Magus
Exocrine
Exocrine
Exocrine

Feel pretty good about this one in practice, here's hoping it does alright this weekend!

Looks nice! If you can, I'd like to hear how it does.

 jifel wrote:
Now that all the ATC lists are up, I figure I'll post my list for the event this weekend.

Patriarch
Primus
20 Purestrains
18 Purestrains
18 Purestrains

Broodlord
Magus
29 Gants (10 Devourers)
3 rippers
3 rippers

Magus
Exocrine
Exocrine
Exocrine

Feel pretty good about this one in practice, here's hoping it does alright this weekend!

No Babysitters for the Exocrines? I assume that the Broodlord is advancing with the Gants? I am wondering if the targeting issues (closest target) are no problem for your list...