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Some quick Carnifex configuration napkin math:
vs. MEQ

Devourers:
12shots 6hits 4wounds
1.3 Damage
Deathspitters:
12s 6h 4w
2 D
Scything Talons:
.5 how+ 5a 2.5h 1.6w
2.1D
Talons w/ Old One Eye:
.5 how+ 5a 3.3h 2.2w
2.7D
Claws and Talons:
.5 how+ 4a 1.3h 1.1w
1.6D
Claws and Talons W/ Old One Eye:
.5how+ 4a 2h 1.6w
2.1D

The results are pretty comparable against infantry, but this is best-case-scenario for Shooty Fexes. Melee will pull ahead against anything multi-wound and the Claws specifically will pull ahead against tougher targets.

I was looking at Deathleaper. Gee his its after me rule is quite darn nice.
Setup anywhere WITHIN 6" of an enemy character and attack any turn he likes.
Sure, hes not going to wipe out Ghaz or Abby but incredibly useful for stalking apoths, bigmeks, crypteks et al.

I'm not too sure of the Claw on a Carnifex due to the -1 to hit.
The damage is high but you are only hitting on a 5+

Having OOE with you mitigates it somewhat.

Biovores deal up to d3 mortal wounds to a unit. The spore Mine rule allows it to kill multiple models because it's not a normal gun. You don't allocate a wound to a model and then roll damage. You just hand out the mortal wounds.

Go to love we can give Genestealers scything talons for free. they are borderline useless compared to rending claws, but there are a few scenarios in which they are better.

An odd way you get your Broodlord up with your Tunnel Stealers is to simply take a spore pod. Add in another 19 stealers to join him on the trip and vioala! Give the pod venom cannons because they're only a point more, then charge with your Tyranid Dirt Torpedoe (TM) after shooting 5d3 s8 ap-1 shots at the closest target of opportunity.

Is anyone else really liking Deathleaper as a true character assassin? Placed WITHIN 6" and can then charge, 4 attacks either at 2D each or rending. Also his Chameleonic skin doesn't only apply to shooting so outside extra bonuses people hit him on a 4+, throw in some Horror and it's a 5+ at best. Fill in some Lictors and a BroodLord or two and you've got a full Vanguard detachment.

StarHunter25 wrote:
An odd way you get your Broodlord up with your Tunnel Stealers is to simply take a spore pod. Add in another 19 stealers to join him on the trip and vioala! Give the pod venom cannons because they're only a point more, then charge with your Tyranid Dirt Torpedoe (TM) after shooting 5d3 s8 ap-1 shots at the closest target of opportunity.

Not sure that works - the T-Cyte rules specifically say "a Hive Fleet infantry unit of up to 20 models". Nothing about a specific transport capacity (indeed, it doesn't have any transport keywords at all). The disembark rule also says "as if they were disembarking from a transport". So I don't think this is possible, sadly. Guess we have to hide our Broodlords in big blobs of Hormas instead to get them up to the genes - which is fine by me, seems they're a better Synapse HQ than Primes for only slightly more points!

I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned Hive Guard yet..

With the shock gun they become a pretty strong antitank weapon (while only 24") their shock gun does +1 Mortal wound on any wound roll of 4+ So even if you needed a 5+ or higher to cause a wound normally (in which they get a save).. you are guaranteed to cause one on a 4+ which gets better on a 6+


Plus impailer can still doesn't need LOS


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wizerdree wrote:
Is anyone else really liking Deathleaper as a true character assassin? Placed WITHIN 6" and can then charge, 4 attacks either at 2D each or rending. Also his Chameleonic skin doesn't only apply to shooting so outside extra bonuses people hit him on a 4+, throw in some Horror and it's a 5+ at best. Fill in some Lictors and a BroodLord or two and you've got a full Vanguard detachment.

I use to use Deathleaper Assassin Brood a fair chunk (until they made it so you couldn't add Broodlords to Manafactorium Stealers) So yeah was happy to see Deathleapers rules

I am a little Disappointed that he isn't a HQ choice.. Just because there are so many HQ's needed for dem command points

Atm my abut 2k points my List of Painted Tyranids pulls in 7 Command Points

Actually got a lot to paint... and now Tyranids are looking good again and not just a mono build.. I will likely get to painting again


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am actually thinking it is worth taking a Sporcyst as well for that extra command point as it is now a fortification

 Carnage43 wrote:

That brings me to psychic powers. The rule of one SUCKS SO HARD. Basically, more than 1 or 2 psykers is going to be pointless unless you just want to spam smite all day.

What is the rule of one you're referring to? Why can't you have multiple psykers all casting onslaught or something like that?

 Zimko wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

That brings me to psychic powers. The rule of one SUCKS SO HARD. Basically, more than 1 or 2 psykers is going to be pointless unless you just want to spam smite all day.

What is the rule of one you're referring to? Why can't you have multiple psykers all casting onslaught or something like that?

In Matched Play games, you can only ever cast any particular spell once (with the exception of Smite). So, only one Catalyst per turn, etc.

See Psychic Focus here:


This provides an interesting choice I think. Do you double down on certain powers so that you have back-ups, or can cast from a Psyker that is outside the range of an enemy Psyker who can deny, or do you take all the spells and spread them out so that you can cast all the powers each turn.

What are your thoughts on melee Hive Tyrant load outs at this point? The option to swap out both sets of Monstrous Scything Talons for two sets of Monstrous Rending Claws seems really tempting to me right now because the rending claws cost a whopping *zero* points.

Assuming wings (because why not) you're looking at:

2x Talons (212 pts):
5 attacks, S6 AP-3 3 damage, reroll 1s to hit

2x Claws (171 pts):
4 attacks, S6 AP-3 D3 damage, reroll to wound, 6s to wound resolved at AP-6(!) and 3 damage.

Haven't math hammered it out yet but I'm leaning towards the cheapo option just because it's so damn cheap for a decent beat stick/psyker/synapse model. I imagine they're about the same against 1-2W targets and that the Talons pull ahead against bigger targets. Might even consider splitting the difference and rolling with a 2x Deathspitter and Rending claw version since the claws don't stack like the Talons do.

That is an awesome idea..

Note to self.. when repairing a CC flyrant.. instead of reattaching lashwhip and bonesword.. add rending claws

wizerdree wrote:
Is anyone else really liking Deathleaper as a true character assassin? Placed WITHIN 6" and can then charge, 4 attacks either at 2D each or rending. Also his Chameleonic skin doesn't only apply to shooting so outside extra bonuses people hit him on a 4+, throw in some Horror and it's a 5+ at best. Fill in some Lictors and a BroodLord or two and you've got a full Vanguard detachment.

I like him but he seems like a liability in match play. Far as I can tell he has to be placed within 6" of the character when coming from reserve. so opponent bubble wraps and you may never get a chance to place him before turn 3. Two turns may not be enough against some armies. Just something to consider.

As far as carnifex is concerned I think 1 scythe 1 set of guns is better. They are kinda trash in cc now without dedicated weapons and losing a single attack for 6 S7 shots makes sense to me. And now that you can shoot one thing and assault another mixed role like that ain't bad.

Synapse is also more of a thing then people are assuming. Biovores are great but need a babysitter. Same deal with exocrines and tfexes. Charge it's less an issue but still a concern.

They need significantly less of a baby sitter. Worst case scenerio you shoot the nearest target. Its not like ib now where you loose total control of the model and si gle model units dont need to worry about moral.

 winterman wrote:

wizerdree wrote:
Is anyone else really liking Deathleaper as a true character assassin? Placed WITHIN 6" and can then charge, 4 attacks either at 2D each or rending. Also his Chameleonic skin doesn't only apply to shooting so outside extra bonuses people hit him on a 4+, throw in some Horror and it's a 5+ at best. Fill in some Lictors and a BroodLord or two and you've got a full Vanguard detachment.

I like him but he seems like a liability in match play. Far as I can tell he has to be placed within 6" of the character when coming from reserve. so opponent bubble wraps and you may never get a chance to place him before turn 3. Two turns may not be enough against some armies. Just something to consider.

That is true.. But it just has to land within 6" and no closer than 1" from the enemy.. So yeah it can be denied by smart play

But the other thing about him is that he doesn't actually have to attack the chosen character so you can place him and then go jump onto something else so a pretty much guaranteed charge

I'm excited about this, ill be dusting off my old nids.

Devourer gaunt bombs seem to have gotten better. 20 termagants in a pod gets the reroll 1's bonus from living ammunition. If your not worried about getting the charge from the Trygon, a 30 model squad can pop out of the tunnel.

It is also not unreasonable to get a tervigon it range to give the reroll 1 to hit.

Alright so here's a question for the Hive: How important have you found command points to be? I played my first game with a Brigade, for a total of 12 Command Points. Found them to be very useful, I used 11 of the 12 in a 6 turn game. Mostly used it on high probability rerolls. Rolled a 1 and 4 to cast a power, passed it on reroll. Same thing to deny. Used it to turn a damge of 3 into a 4 to finish off a Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf after he passed way too many saves. Ended up losing a close game to a SW/DA list but we found out after the game his list wasnt correct. No hard feelings in the first game of the edition though!

So, I guess the question is, are 12 command points much better than say, 8 or 9? Its fairly Tax heavy and I definitely could use the points better if I wasnt maxing out my slots. My 2k list, for example, had 5 units of 3 Rippers to fill out the 6 slots as cheap as possible, and I was only able to fit two single Biovores. Obviously I would add more given the option! I think I could easily drop the Brigade for a Battalion and a Spearhead or Vanguard for 7-8 command points and have a little more efficient unit selection.

Have not had a chance to play yet, but I suspect command points will become much more useful as codexes are released and faction specific stratagems are released.

For nids, I imagine we will be able to respawn a eliminated troops unit or some such.

I did some Ravener numbers because I've been dying to get them into play and here's what I found for their melee kits. I'm less confident in how to quantify the guns vs each other.
9 Raveners
2x scytals
45 attacks
first hits(3+): 30 hits
reroll hits(3+): 35 hits
wound(4+): 17.5 wounds
Save(3+): 5.83...

rending:
36 attacks
hits: 24
wound(4+): 8 + 4 rending
save(4+): 4 + 4 rending

W/Red Terror (+1 to hit rolls)
2x scytals
45 attacks
first hits(2+): 37.5 hits
reroll hits(2+): 43.75 hits
wound(4+): 21.875 wounds
Save(3+): 7.292 damage

rending:
36 attacks
hits(2+): 30
wound(4+): 10 + 5 rending
save(4+): 5 + 5 rending

So, does anyone see a use for tyranid warriors? It seems to me without the character keyword to hide, their just going to get shot off the table. There's tons of awesome stuff to be excited about here, but I'm bummed that our synapse unit is about as resilient as Ork nobs...

Am I missing something? or why would I want warriors, when I can take a single prime for the hiding behind units?

 GreaterGood? wrote:
So, does anyone see a use for tyranid warriors? It seems to me without the character keyword to hide, their just going to get shot off the table. There's tons of awesome stuff to be excited about here, but I'm bummed that our synapse unit is about as resilient as Ork nobs...

Am I missing something? or why would I want warriors, when I can take a single prime for the hiding behind units?

I imagine to a degree it will matter on how you build the rest of your army. There is no more instant death, although there are multi wound weapons, now. If you have a brood of warriors babysitting a herd of carnifex as they run up the board they are less likely to see those big guns focus them down compared to being surrounded by hormagaunts and gargoyles. Being a troops choice they can pop out of Trygon holes for a lot of synapse up very close very fast. In either case they are a 3W, 4T model that is a synapse creature so it is ALWAYS immune to morale. A max sized unit without catalyst needs to absorb 27 wounds to be knocked down. If you equip a brood with up to 3 bio-cannons you can lay out 3d3 S8 attacks or 3d6 S5 attacks at 36". Will they be the codex star this edition? time will tell as all the armies finish getting unpacked and we see how things shake out. Are they playable and no longer a liability to field? It definitely looks that way.

Sadly Tervigons and Tyrannofexes are now the worst choices in the army I think.

250 is too much for returning maybe 50 termagants over a game, if you are lucky. 50 termagants is 200pts, might as well just take more to start with.

Tyrannofexes are worse than Exocrines if you give them a Rupture Cannon, for 15pts more.

Tyrannofexes with hives are the same price as 53 termagants so you lose out on 13 shots or 33 shots if it moves, compared to just taking more Gants.

Tyrannofexes with Acid Spray could be useful I guess, not sure what they compete with, though you pay for the no movement penalty rule and don't use it.

The value i find in the Tervigon is that it can help keep those termigant units over the 20 model threshhold. Also in the replenishment action they need to be within 6" from the tervigon and more than 1" from any enemy models. This does not specify that the unit they add to cannot have other models within 1" so you can continue to pile in and tarpit a combat.

Alternatively depending on unit placement you can add a few extra inches to a units movement by adding them to the front of the unit so long as they comply with other placement rules. Move 6" and get another 3" of Gant placement and then charge.

Edit: Re-reading the rules for the replacement section is says you can only replace models equiped with a fleshborer. If I read that right it means a mixed unit of 20 devourers and 10 fleshborers can only ever have the 10 fleshborers replaced. I would hole that any of the models can get replaced only with a fleshborer but that's not how it appears to read.

Let's also not forget the buff Tervigons provide to Termegaunts, as well as their ability to cast/deny a psychic power. They're a force multiplier, and for that reason you can't just compare their points value directly with the amount of Termagaunts they can spit out.

Anyone consider running a Synapse-less army?

I dont really see much of a downside to IB now, barring your opponent parking something really really tough infront of your gants and forcing them to chip chip chip away at it for 6 turns.
But with some smart movement and positioning you could avoid this.

Am I missing something?

 Ratius wrote:
Anyone consider running a Synapse-less army?

I dont really see much of a downside to IB now, barring your opponent parking something really really tough infront of your gants and forcing them to chip chip chip away at it for 6 turns.
But with some smart movement and positioning you could avoid this.

Am I missing something?

gak LD means loosing droves of hordes to moral. Otherwise nope.

wizerdree wrote:


Edit: Re-reading the rules for the replacement section is says you can only replace models equiped with a fleshborer. If I read that right it means a mixed unit of 20 devourers and 10 fleshborers can only ever have the 10 fleshborers replaced. I would hole that any of the models can get replaced only with a fleshborer but that's not how it appears to read.

Correct. But since you can choose which models die first, you can put the fleshborer gaunts in the back and remove them first. That way your devgaunts stay in range and your Tervigon can replace the dead ones. I'm personally going to run 2 units of Termagaunts and give 15 devgaunts in each unit. That gives them a 15 wound buffer before they lose the devgaunts and allows the Tervigon to buff both units. In total we're looking at 60 gaunts, half with devourers, that refill 1s to hit and wound, and a Tervigon to replace up to 10 per turn and provide onslaught or maybe just a smite. That's quite a bit of area denial. The cost would be 600 points for all of that.

gak LD means loosing droves of hordes to moral.

Very true, had forgotten that