Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have an odd/interisting comparison to put to you all.

Dual Monstrous Rending claws Hive tyrant vs Broodlord.

Hive Tyrant is 144 pts with this load out coming in 18pts cheaper than the Brood lord.

For 18 pts less you get 4" extra synapse, an extra psychic action and power each turn, +1 Str/Tough, 4 more wounds.

You loose 1" from move, Adv and assault, Genestealer buff, and character meat shield powers.

Now if you are using genestealers then it would be foolish not to have a broodlord but if you want to just have a fast assaulter that can wreck face the Tyrant is actually very affordable. Just to note for 10 points(Edit sry 20 pts) you can give the tyrant his slimer maggots back and still be 8 pts cheaper(Edit: sry 2 pts more than the Broodlord) than the Broodlord but have an 18" str 7 -1 ap assault weapon as well.

Discuss.....

HT is 10 wounds, it can be target. BL has less than 10 so it cant be targeted without the Snipe rule.

This is the main difference.

Anything that can be shot at, better do something while that is happening. This is most often shooting back. But it can also be being too cheap or unimportant to be shot in the first place i.e. wasting the opps ammo.
Pure CC HT does neither.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Shrikes are good, but Warriors are just as good. It's list dependant. Shrikes are quite pricey.

Both units are casual play only, imo. Shrikes are mediocre and Warriors slightly worse. A shame, since I love the model. Warriors lack a role. What is it they do better than any other unit? If I want scoring troops I have deepstriking Rippers that are easy to hide and no longer require synapse (to be honest they didn't need synapse before 8th ed).
The only thing I might consider Warriors for in a serious list is babysitting a gunline, they do it cheaper than a Tyranid Prime (60pts compared to 100pts) with the very real drawback that they can be targeted. If Forgeworld (Malanthrope) was allowed in my area, they would never come off the shelf.

Shrikes at least can provide some forward synapse while holding their own, but they still cost too much for their squishiness.

 N.I.B. wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Shrikes are good, but Warriors are just as good. It's list dependant. Shrikes are quite pricey.

Both units are casual play only, imo. Shrikes are mediocre and Warriors slightly worse. A shame, since I love the model. Warriors lack a role. What is it they do better than any other unit? If I want scoring troops I have deepstriking Rippers that are easy to hide and no longer require synapse (to be honest they didn't need synapse before 8th ed).
The only thing I might consider Warriors for in a serious list is babysitting a gunline, they do it cheaper than a Tyranid Prime (60pts compared to 100pts) with the very real drawback that they can be targeted. If Forgeworld (Malanthrope) was allowed in my area, they would never come off the shelf.

Shrikes at least can provide some forward synapse while holding their own, but they still cost too much for their squishiness.

Warriors don't do anything better than one of the other options, but do all of them at the same time for a combined cost that is extremely cheap. The typical complaint that generalist models are bad in 40k is void in this case, since they can actually do all of them at the same time turn after turn.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
HT is 10 wounds, it can be target. BL has less than 10 so it cant be targeted without the Snipe rule.

This is the main difference.

I know the Tyrant can be a target but for the extra you get along with it being a beast in CC they are really putting a lot of value on character under 10 wound status.

Is this:
you get 4" extra synapse, an extra psychic action and power each turn, +1 Str/Tough, 4 more wounds.

Worth loosing this:
You loose 1" from move, Adv and assault, Genestealer buff, and character meat shield powers.

With 18 pts to spare.

We are 2 moinths from a codex. Price changes will likely be in the mix along with relic options and different hive fleet boosts.

I suspect a lot of this "what is good what is best" discussion is meaningless for the next 2 months.

 Lance845 wrote:
We are 2 moinths from a codex. Price changes will likely be in the mix along with relic options and different hive fleet boosts.

I suspect a lot of this "what is good what is best" discussion is meaningless for the next 2 months.

Yep this, i honestly see no reason to compare units right now. Just play games for fun and get ready to swap some arms out.

Wait, do fidderent hivefleets have different skills? I have never seen this with the tyranids.

 Lance845 wrote:
We are 2 months from a codex. Price changes will likely be in the mix along with relic options and different hive fleet boosts.

I suspect a lot of this "what is good what is best" discussion is meaningless for the next 2 months.

but in the meantime I plan to keep playing what I have as you said it's still 2 months away and I hope to get at least 5-10 games in before that.

I've built a fairly scary (it seems to me) Tyrant swarm list with a Malanthrope 7 Tyrants total (All Mon Rend claws/Deathspitters/3 winged) and the Swarmlord with 3 broods of 3 rippers and a 5 strong brood of Tyrant guard. (Completely experimental not something I would normally play)
Fairly crazy amount of Dakka(84 shots S7 -1 rend BS3+) and 8 smites. All protected by malanthrope and 15 ablative Tyrant guard wounds (which will have catalist ASAP for a 5+)
Super resilient deathstarish list...yes very spammy but I think it could work and with the rippers to DS and cap objectives kinda scary. I have not actually played it but in my head it seems very nasty even against top lists.

Warriors and shrikes seem to be really polarising right now. I personally have a squad of 3 Warriors with only scytals which get used for synapse whenever I can't use a malanthrope. I've got 5 shrikes with deathspitters and boneswords that seem ok, if a little expensive for what they do.

Old One Eye is overlooked in myth opinion - he is the definitive DISTRACTION CARNIFEX - big, scary, cheap, but also able to do some damage if ignored. A list that takes any Carnifex would be stupid not to take him.

Speaking of regular carnifex, I find them to be really good. I have one devourer-fex and one scytal-fex, and whilst they dont usually kill anything, they cost around 200 points and soak up a disproportionate amount of fire.

I'm experimenting with the idea of larger numbers of rippers to be used to encircle enemies and limit the enemies ability to fall back - they're incredibly cheap at only 3.3 points per wound and can pop up all over the place.

C4790M wrote:


I'm experimenting with the idea of larger numbers of rippers to be used to encircle enemies and limit the enemies ability to fall back - they're incredibly cheap at only 3.3 points per wound and can pop up all over the place.

I wonder is 2 broods of 9 rippers enough models to completely surround a unit from deepstrike? That's 198 pts you think it would be worth it?

Timeshadow wrote:

C4790M wrote:


I'm experimenting with the idea of larger numbers of rippers to be used to encircle enemies and limit the enemies ability to fall back - they're incredibly cheap at only 3.3 points per wound and can pop up all over the place.

I wonder is 2 broods of 9 rippers enough models to completely surround a unit from deepstrike? That's 198 pts you think it would be worth it?

IMO Nids has one of the best swarms, b.c they can DS. You dont need to surround a unit tho you can make walls and make it much harder for them to move, walling out 2-3 units IMO would be better than surrounding 1 unit.

I am thinking of a Brigade with Rippers 3x3 Troops and FA. Its basically 200pts but i get 3 DSing units and 3 anti-charge units or 3 objective units.

I play DE and i still am using 10 RWF's even with them being 14pts, they are great units outside of Gman spam and Conscript Spam lists, but sense im not fighting thoses i dont need to worry.

Lance845 wrote:We are 2 moinths from a codex. Price changes will likely be in the mix along with relic options and different hive fleet boosts.

I suspect a lot of this "what is good what is best" discussion is meaningless for the next 2 months.

Two points, one we have no idea how much the army will change and we have no reason to believe it will be drastically. The codex is extremely balanced both internally and externally.

Secondly, this comment is as meaningless as you believe the discussion is. Do you want us to just post nothing for the next two months? We still have games to play man.

N.I.B. wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Shrikes are good, but Warriors are just as good. It's list dependant. Shrikes are quite pricey.

Both units are casual play only, imo. Shrikes are mediocre and Warriors slightly worse. A shame, since I love the model. Warriors lack a role. What is it they do better than any other unit? If I want scoring troops I have deepstriking Rippers that are easy to hide and no longer require synapse (to be honest they didn't need synapse before 8th ed).
The only thing I might consider Warriors for in a serious list is babysitting a gunline, they do it cheaper than a Tyranid Prime (60pts compared to 100pts) with the very real drawback that they can be targeted. If Forgeworld (Malanthrope) was allowed in my area, they would never come off the shelf.

Shrikes at least can provide some forward synapse while holding their own, but they still cost too much for their squishiness.

They are a very durable Elite unit with a lot of +3 S5 AP-1 shooting and a bucket of +2 S4 AP-2 attacks. They provide a Synapse bubble at the same time. I struggle to find a unit that can match what they bring to the table.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Lance845 wrote:We are 2 moinths from a codex. Price changes will likely be in the mix along with relic options and different hive fleet boosts.

I suspect a lot of this "what is good what is best" discussion is meaningless for the next 2 months.

Two points, one we have no idea how much the army will change and we have no reason to believe it will be drastically. The codex is extremely balanced both internally and externally.

Secondly, this comment is as meaningless as you believe the discussion is. Do you want us to just post nothing for the next two months? We still have games to play man.

No. I think the discussion of min maxing and the exact merits of a hive tyrant vs a broodlord is meaningless. I think general tactics, unit synergys, and unit builds and their uses is still very much worth discussing.

What someone does with some rippers is very interesting. Wether or not a hive tryant with free double rending claws is better or worse then a brood lord for the points is likely moot in november.

 Lance845 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Lance845 wrote:We are 2 moinths from a codex. Price changes will likely be in the mix along with relic options and different hive fleet boosts.

I suspect a lot of this "what is good what is best" discussion is meaningless for the next 2 months.

Two points, one we have no idea how much the army will change and we have no reason to believe it will be drastically. The codex is extremely balanced both internally and externally.

Secondly, this comment is as meaningless as you believe the discussion is. Do you want us to just post nothing for the next two months? We still have games to play man.

No. I think the discussion of min maxing and the exact merits of a hive tyrant vs a broodlord is meaningless. I think general tactics, unit synergys, and unit builds and their uses is still very much worth discussing.

What someone does with some rippers is very interesting. Wether or not a hive tryant with free double rending claws is better or worse then a brood lord for the points is likely moot in november.

But Tyrant synergies with Guard/Malanthrope for a relatively cheap price is something that is worth speaking about. Since The Tyrant is a 2 cast psyker and can be made extremly resilent with guard. The big thing is guard are too expensive to be worth it for one or even two tyrants but if they are protecting a whole swarm of cheap tyrants than I think that's again woth speaking about.

Actually I believe that rumor about a Novermber or earlier codex was redacted/proven to be false. Wouldn't hold your breath for an exceedingly quick codex release. My wallet is really ok with this right now. God bless Morty but he's more expensive to get painted than he is to buy. And he is not cheap

As is, I think the untargetability of the Broodlord is the main draw, as well as the synergy with Genestealers, which I still think are one of our best units. The tyrant really needed to be 9 wounds, but then the tyrant guard have no place in the codex. It's a tough design space

 luke1705 wrote:
Actually I believe that rumor about a Novermber or earlier codex was redacted/proven to be false. Wouldn't hold your breath for an exceedingly quick codex release. My wallet is really ok with this right now. God bless Morty but he's more expensive to get painted than he is to buy. And he is not cheap

As is, I think the untargetability of the Broodlord is the main draw, as well as the synergy with Genestealers, which I still think are one of our best units. The tyrant really needed to be 9 wounds, but then the tyrant guard have no place in the codex. It's a tough design space

I think the 9 - 10 wound for characters should be "unit containing 10 wounds or more", this would make some units like HT 9w but the guard would make him 10+ and target able.

Tyrant Guard already really don't have a place in the Codex. They are too expensive for their role and they move too slowly to keep up with the Hive Tyrant in most cases where it matters.

The idea of a few Hive Tyrants walking with the guard sounds fun, but no way I'd fork out that amount of cash to try it when the lists I run are far more versatile already and plenty effective while using more options.

I just can never seem to justify a Hive Tyrant over a Swarmlord when building a list. He doesn't bring anything I can't elsewhere cheaper and the Swarmy, while more expensive, gives me that extra move,

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
Tyrant Guard already really don't have a place in the Codex. They are too expensive for their role and they move too slowly to keep up with the Hive Tyrant in most cases where it matters.

The idea of a few Hive Tyrants walking with the guard sounds fun, but no way I'd fork out that amount of cash to try it when the lists I run are far more versatile already and plenty effective while using more options.

I just can never seem to justify a Hive Tyrant over a Swarmlord when building a list. He doesn't bring anything I can't elsewhere cheaper and the Swarmy, while more expensive, gives me that extra move,

I honestly never liked Tyrant guards either, i never felt they fit well in with nids, we have gaunts for that reason.

If we had to have them, make them a walking wall for that takes very little damage, like -1 to wound and -1 damage (minimum of 1), so they would be melee warriors basically but tough AF, a T5 or T6 unit with those rules be more fun to play than.... what they are.

 Niiai wrote:
Wait, do different hive fleets have different skills? I have never seen this with the tyranids.

Not skills so much as "personalities".
- Behemoth had an emphasis on an overwhelming sledgehammer approach, simply smashing and swarming their way through obstructions. Original fleet of Old One Eye.
- Kraken favored decentralized hit and fade attacks to probe defenses before converging on vulnerabilities. Original Fleet of the Red Terror.
- Leviathan favors a combined arms approach and greater use of aerial swarms. Original Fleet of Deathleaper.
- Gorgon focused on hyper adaptability over all else, causing it to have a greater reliance on expendable swarm creatures that could be created and modified faster than larger, more time and resource intensive organisms.
- Jormungandr relied fairly heavily on tunneling organisms which would burrow after being dropped on a planet and hibernate below ground until the fleet deemed their numbers sufficient to start wreaking havoc. They have a Genestealer Cult devoted specifically to them (Sons of Jormungandr).
- Naga has little known about it, other than it being the fleet that created the Doom of Malan'tai and it seeming to like subterfuge (most of its attacks are preceded by Genestealer infiltration/infestation). Also had a Genestealer Cult specifically devoted to it (Cult of Veiled Oblivion) .
- Hydra is the new fleet for 8th edition and so far has no specific tactics other than their peculiar focus on assimilating remnants of the prior fleets.

 luke1705 wrote:
The tyrant really needed to be 9 wounds, but then the tyrant guard have no place in the codex. It's a tough design space

They could always copy the Genestealer Cult characters and have the Tyrant Guard act as a squad add-on ala Familiars. They share the same toughness as their boss if I remember correctly and have the same save so it isn't going to cause issues like some of the other mixed model units.

Part of me would love to see a list spamming just Tyrant Guard and Hive Tyrants + Swarmy, if only for the silliness that target priority would be. If they shoot the Tyrant/Swarmy, they either risk enraging all the guards or else have the shots redirected to whoever has Catalyst on them. Shoot the Guards and they allow the Tyrants to run amuck.

 luke1705 wrote:
Actually I believe that rumor about a Novermber or earlier codex was redacted/proven to be false. Wouldn't hold your breath for an exceedingly quick codex release. My wallet is really ok with this right now. God bless Morty but he's more expensive to get painted than he is to buy. And he is not cheap

As is, I think the untargetability of the Broodlord is the main draw, as well as the synergy with Genestealers, which I still think are one of our best units. The tyrant really needed to be 9 wounds, but then the tyrant guard have no place in the codex. It's a tough design space

I havent seen anything that said that got debunked. Any links to source?

I think the tyrant guard need to be expanded to protect more than just tyrants.

 Lance845 wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Actually I believe that rumor about a Novermber or earlier codex was redacted/proven to be false. Wouldn't hold your breath for an exceedingly quick codex release. My wallet is really ok with this right now. God bless Morty but he's more expensive to get painted than he is to buy. And he is not cheap

As is, I think the untargetability of the Broodlord is the main draw, as well as the synergy with Genestealers, which I still think are one of our best units. The tyrant really needed to be 9 wounds, but then the tyrant guard have no place in the codex. It's a tough design space

I havent seen anything that said that got debunked. Any links to source?

I think the tyrant guard need to be expanded to protect more than just tyrants.

that sounds like a great idea to make it more useful

make it so they can use their ability on any unit once per turn or something.

Or just any nid character. Tyrant Guard protecting OOE? Yes please!

There is a lot of room to explore the "chapter tactics" of Nids. I'm really interested what they will do for the hive fleets. My biggest hope though is that they make a stratagem for "Jones is acting strangely".
We will likely get at least one swarm Stratagem for gaunts to make them neverending.
Hopefully, the new psychic powers will allow us to use more of our psychic nids and make Tyrants more useful.
There is really only a couple units that need some work. We have a great Index entry that should only get better with expanded psychic powers, hive fleet tactics, and Stratagems.

 Strat_N8 wrote:


Part of me would love to see a list spamming just Tyrant Guard and Hive Tyrants + Swarmy, if only for the silliness that target priority would be. If they shoot the Tyrant/Swarmy, they either risk enraging all the guards or else have the shots redirected to whoever has Catalyst on them. Shoot the Guards and they allow the Tyrants to run amuck.

Built a list to do just this and it looks crazy good still need to test it though. Check out my name in the army list section for details I even have a link to a Facebook page with pics.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10159215513985368&set=gm.1886099804748376&type=3&theater&ifg=1

Link to pic on facebook

My wishlist for the codex:


HQ:
- Hive tyrant increased to 12 wounds
- Cost reduction on prime around 10 points.
- Tervigon 20-25 point cost reduction
- Malanthrope targettable even if it is not the closest target (seriously, that thing is huge!). Would put him in line with venomthropes.

Troops:

- Venom sacs on warriors and genestealers down to 3 points and on gaunts down to 1 point

Elite:

- Cost reduction for Tguard crushing claws.
- One more attack to lictors
- Maleceptor psychic overload range increased to 15". One unit can be affected by this ability only once each turn.
- Pyrovores one more attack
- Cost reduction on haruspex

Fast attack:
- Slight cost reductions on chrone and harpy
- Spore mines and mucolids reworked completely.

Dedicated transports:
- Cost reduction on tyrannocite weapons, it's a 5+ platform!

Heavy supports:
- 1 less movement of the stonefex, to put it in line with the regular fex.
- Cost reduction for cfex crushing claws.
- Tyrannofex BS stat decreases later, at 1-3 wounds. It gets crippled too heavily too fast.
- Toxicrebe WS stat decreases later, at 1-3 wounds. It gets crippled too heavily too fast

Fortifications:
- Sporocyst spore node range increased to 18". Again, cost reduction on weapons for a 5+ platform.

What do you think, too delusional?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addendum on the spore mine rework:

Right now spore mines are used only when they are free. 10 points for a really small chance to inflict a mortal wound on a target not of your choice is simply unusable, especially when the average cost/wound ratio is close to 10, so even if you get to hit something you just came out even. The correct cost for the current implementation of the spore mines is between 3 and 4 points, but would make them abusable and we do not want that. We also do not want to make them delivered more easily, they are mines, not assaulty things. The enemy should trip onto them, not the other way around. What i propose is a six point version of the mines, that work like the actual ones, but have a penalty of -1 to get shot at, which increases to -2 if they are in cover. This way they become cover negating units, a group of 3 in a ruin requires some accurate firepower to remove them and inflicts a mild punishment if you wish to take those ruins. For 18 points that do not cap points that sounds fair. Correctly countered by flamer weapons.

Mucolids on the other hand cannot be just bigger spore mines, they need to cover a different role. I would gladly see them as slow ballons of death that try to get near you. They already work like that, but with those stats they are not worth it, they need some durability. Since they are big sponges, i suggest changing the stats to T1 Sv7+ 8 wounds. Also, they need to be more bangy if manage to make contact, so the table should be:
1 - 1 wound
2&3 - d3
4&5 - d6
6 - 6
For an average of 3 mortal wounds.
At 20 points they become sort of a bad, low priority target that will slowly help you controlling the battlefield. This is a role we lack and is about right for that cost.

Now, why spore mines and mucolids are in the fast attack section is a complete mistery, but that was true for all the preceding codices too.

So thoughts on the Malanthrope?

At 100pts, what does it do because it looks to be purely defensive.

It only seems to give -1 to-hit, no cover save? Is that basically it (I appreciate that is quite potent).

Razerous wrote:
So thoughts on the Malanthrope?

At 100pts, what does it do because it looks to be purely defensive.

It only seems to give -1 to-hit, no cover save? Is that basically it (I appreciate that is quite potent).

Malanthrope needs a nerf. It is overshadowing velenomthropes in the only role they cover and at the same time providing a cheap HQ and synapse. Just no!

FW should stop making models that covers factions shortcomings, they are there by design. You don't give to tyranids a -1 hit aura on an untargettable char, and you don't give tyranids a cheap efficient HQ.

So it's good if you don't want to include a HQ.

But the aura, what is it good at protecting, give it's short range and low M score.