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A completely separate way to look at this would be to give Venomthropes a buff. Give them a niche that the Malanthrope doesn't cover. The Mal is an excellent unit but if it's nerfed, Nids lose almost any competitive change they may have had. It's no where near as bad as Malefic Lords, Celestine, Primarchs etc on the "needs a nerf" scale. It's a very good unit in a slightly above average faction.

 jifel wrote:
A completely separate way to look at this would be to give Venomthropes a buff. Give them a niche that the Malanthrope doesn't cover. The Mal is an excellent unit but if it's nerfed, Nids lose almost any competitive change they may have had. It's no where near as bad as Malefic Lords, Celestine, Primarchs etc on the "needs a nerf" scale. It's a very good unit in a slightly above average faction.

But why - how good is that aura buff, really?

 jifel wrote:
A completely separate way to look at this would be to give Venomthropes a buff. Give them a niche that the Malanthrope doesn't cover. The Mal is an excellent unit but if it's nerfed, Nids lose almost any competitive change they may have had. It's no where near as bad as Malefic Lords, Celestine, Primarchs etc on the "needs a nerf" scale. It's a very good unit in a slightly above average faction.

Agreed. Anyone that thinks the Malanthrope needs a nerf should look at the Changeling, a 100 point character that gives out a 9" -1 to hit bubble. The Malanthrope with its very limmited 3" bubble is just fine and not OP at all. Yes, It over shines the venomthropes, but that is because they are an under performing support unit having both too many restrictions on their aura (3" range and only impacting infantry) and having poor resiliency.

Razerous wrote:
But why - how good is that aura buff, really?

I wouldn't call it game-changing or anything, but because the Malanthrope's aura affects all friendly Tyranid units, it means you can protect your Monsters just that bit more (and given that they're mostly non-screenable, any extra bit helps).

I think the reason why the Malanthrope's buff is considered so good is because it's a non-restrictive buff that's tied to a fairly survivable (and most importantly, screenable) monster that's a Synapse providing HQ unit for pretty cheap.

 jifel wrote:
A completely separate way to look at this would be to give Venomthropes a buff. Give them a niche that the Malanthrope doesn't cover. The Mal is an excellent unit but if it's nerfed, Nids lose almost any competitive change they may have had. It's no where near as bad as Malefic Lords, Celestine, Primarchs etc on the "needs a nerf" scale. It's a very good unit in a slightly above average faction.

That is the definition of overpowered. If a single model is the lichpin to the competitivity of a faction, then that model needs a nerf. I'm not saying that it is broken and needs a nerf for the sake of the game, it is broken on the level of a faction that boosts an excellent internal balance, so the FW stuff tends to stand out.

The changeling is a much worse model compared to a malanthrope, his ability covers an extremely restrictive keyword and is easily sniped. The malanthrope costs less and on top of the excellent aura provides synapse and an extra conditional bonus. Also, it is not unique.

At that cost the malanthrope would be balanced if it was targettable, making it similar to a DA nightshroud , which is considered an excellent model.

The Malanthrope isn't going to be nerfed. It is a FW model, which means it is outside the jurisdiction of a new codex. Of all the things that may change in a few months with a new codex, the Malanthrope isn't one of them.

Unfortunately true. And yet i have some hope, when GW updated the GHB of AoS, they also released a free pdf with updates for the FW models.

Not a single thing wrong with the Malanthrope, not one. It is a 90 point HQ with a limited range and utility buff (doesn't affect CC) that provides synapse. It has little to no offensive capability and so only fits in a support role. It overshadows venomthropes, because venomthropes need fixing, not the malanthrope. If the venomthropes were cheaper, and were slightly more viable offensively, then you would see them as they could lend something to a forward line of infantry, where the malanthrope tends to want to sit in the back out of the action. That is how they need to change, make them the offensive buff unit, keep the malanthrope the defensive one.

Most of the units in the dex only need slight adjustments to be considered more viable, like pyrovores being 1-6 in a unit, swarmlord point reduction (or added buff), dramatic point reduction for tervigon, lictors slightly better, etc. I wholly agree that we have a very competent index and it is nice to be playing this faction and have decision paralysis again when designing lists.

I wouldn't say the Malanthrope is what keeps us competitive. I do just fine without one. I also wouldn't say it's OP in any way, maybe a tad under-costed, but the power of it is just fine.
It really is the Venomthropes that need some love. I'd love to see their to-hit-modifier and range of said ability tied to the number of them in a unit.
I like the Malanthrope being for the monsters and the Venoms being for our infantry. It creates a niche for both as long as both options are worth taking.

 gameandwatch wrote:
Not a single thing wrong with the Malanthrope, not one. It is a 90 point HQ with a limited range and utility buff (doesn't affect CC) that provides synapse. It has little to no offensive capability and so only fits in a support role. It overshadows venomthropes, because venomthropes need fixing, not the malanthrope. If the venomthropes were cheaper, and were slightly more viable offensively, then you would see them as they could lend something to a forward line of infantry, where the malanthrope tends to want to sit in the back out of the action. That is how they need to change, make them the offensive buff unit, keep the malanthrope the defensive one.

Most of the units in the dex only need slight adjustments to be considered more viable, like pyrovores being 1-6 in a unit, swarmlord point reduction (or added buff), dramatic point reduction for tervigon, lictors slightly better, etc. I wholly agree that we have a very competent index and it is nice to be playing this faction and have decision paralysis again when designing lists.

Right, was going to say the same thing that the Malanthrope isnt OP at all, its a good choice, but its not a must take. And i also agree that Venomthropes need to be fix. WHY do we have to take 3?!?!? WTF, I would love to play 3 Venomthropes IF they were 1 man units, this way i could have 3 units moving up with my army.

I also agree that the Nids codex just needs some tweaks here and there. All Warrior like units should be 1-6 sizes, i HATE the must take 3., some weapon prices changes and a couple small buffs to a couple units and we gold.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:
Not a single thing wrong with the Malanthrope, not one. It is a 90 point HQ with a limited range and utility buff (doesn't affect CC) that provides synapse. It has little to no offensive capability and so only fits in a support role. It overshadows venomthropes, because venomthropes need fixing, not the malanthrope. If the venomthropes were cheaper, and were slightly more viable offensively, then you would see them as they could lend something to a forward line of infantry, where the malanthrope tends to want to sit in the back out of the action. That is how they need to change, make them the offensive buff unit, keep the malanthrope the defensive one.

Most of the units in the dex only need slight adjustments to be considered more viable, like pyrovores being 1-6 in a unit, swarmlord point reduction (or added buff), dramatic point reduction for tervigon, lictors slightly better, etc. I wholly agree that we have a very competent index and it is nice to be playing this faction and have decision paralysis again when designing lists.

Right, was going to say the same thing that the Malanthrope isnt OP at all, its a good choice, but its not a must take. And i also agree that Venomthropes need to be fix. WHY do we have to take 3?!?!? WTF, I would love to play 3 Venomthropes IF they were 1 man units, this way i could have 3 units moving up with my army.

I also agree that the Nids codex just needs some tweaks here and there. All Warrior like units should be 1-6 sizes, i HATE the must take 3., some weapon prices changes and a couple small buffs to a couple units and we gold.

In general i agree, but the malan would need at least a price hike to 120. 90 is really too good, let's be honest.

They need to fix venomthropes by making them not targetable or expanding their aura to cover everything instead of just infantry. Its not the malanthropes fault venoms dont get taken. Venoms are far too vulnerable for their niche benefit.

It is not like the malanthrope is undercosted either. It competetes with warriors in many spots as a cheap synapse provider. It is just that venomthropes have bad rules (really, no MC's?) or cost to little. I do not expect them to make it into mellee in most games.

90pts is fine... it has bad melee, is slow, no shooting, no psychic, etc...

How is 90pts to cheap? Eidt: It has a 50% chance to do 1 MW.. oh so scary.

Would you take him at 120 points?
I would.

Spoletta wrote:
Would you take him at 120 points?
I would.

Just b.c you would take it at more points doesnt mean it is needed to be more points or balanced at those points.

No, if you would take it even if it costed more then that means that it is worth more than the actual cost.

Spoletta wrote:
No, if you would take it even if it costed more then that means that it is worth more than the actual cost.

Again, it cant shoot, does very little in melee, has no powers, moves slow, only S4 and T5 with a 5+ save.... hardly worth to be increased.

And like i said, just b.c YOU WOULD doesnt me others would... I wouldnt... i dont always take one as is, if im more of a heavy infantry unit or DS heavy i wont take it b.c i use Primes and Broodlord to hide them.

Spoletta wrote:
No, if you would take it even if it costed more then that means that it is worth more than the actual cost.

The Malanthrope is still an important HQ even if its points increase for a few reasons:

1) We have no better options

2) Force multiplication is difficult to put a value on


That being said, we may see an adjustment when Chapter Approved comes out. Who knows? I personally don't think it NEEDS to be adjusted - I think the units that it can buff need to be adjusted. It works fine. The rest of our army is mostly what has room for improvement. And it's certainly not so over the top that it's broken. Near auto include, sure. But I think that's more an indictment of our HQ selections that its brokenness.

Razerous wrote:So thoughts on the Malanthrope?

At 100pts, what does it do because it looks to be purely defensive.

It only seems to give -1 to-hit, no cover save? Is that basically it (I appreciate that is quite potent).

Decent unit in the right list. It's ability doesn't cover enough space to go in every list, and taking multiple Thropes is a ridiculous amount of tax. It's worth it's points basically if three things are the case: 1, the other HQ's don't fit in your list, 2, your list has obvious high priority targets, and 3, you need the Synapse and will be taking advantage of this part of it's cost as well.

As it stands I think it's currently the most overrated unit in our dex, it's not an auto-include, it's list dependant on how worthy it is. However, it fills a great role in the dex and it helps make some lists just work, so it's a well designed unit imo.

Spoletta wrote:Would you take him at 120 points?
I would.

I don't even take him at his current cost, so there's zero chance I'd take him at 120

Shuppet what HQ choices are you taking instead of the Malanthrope? I assume a broodlord or two and maybe Old One Eye, but the Malanthrope is better than Old One Eye and increases the survivability of your army by so much. Way better than a hive tyrant or a prime, and certainly better than a Tervigon. The Swarmlord is good but gets targeted and killed so fast that you need a Tyrannocyte or the equivalent amount of Tyrant Guard to keep him alive at all. At that point, he's almost 450 points. Yikes.

Our current HQ's include

1:Swarmlord
Pros: Great synergy, melee beast, Dbl Psychic
Cons: Expensive, Big Target, relatively fragile for cost.

2: Hive tyrant
Pros: All around good for range and Melee, good synergy, Dbl psychic, can fly(if paid for)
Cons: Expensive, Big Target, fragile for cost.

3:Broodlord
Pros:Fast, Genestealer synergy,Character,Good melee, Psychic, Expensive
Cons: Low Wounds, Vulnerable to snipers, no range

4: Old one Eye
Pros: Buffs Carnifex's, melee beast
Cons: No synapse, Big target, no range, Expensive.

5: Tervigon
Pros: Psychic, Termigaunt synergy, spawn Termigaunts
Cons: Very Expensive, backlash on termigaunts, no good range, moderate to bad melee.

6: Tyranid Prime
Pros: Character, Warrior synergy
Cons: Very Expensive for what he does, no wings(can't keep up with shrikes)

7: Malanthrope
Pros: Cheapest HQ by 12+pts, Synergy with everything(spore cloud), Character, Pray adaptation, Can be taken in 3 but are independent after deploy, Fly
Cons: Fragile, relatively slow

So from our list of Tyranid HQ's we have lots of choices but for filling the "leader" role only one or two. Most of our HQ's are front line get in your face and be killie which is not conductive to preventing your opponent from getting slay the warlord. The only 2 that can really fill this role (and not waist their talents) are the Tyranid Prime and the Malanthrope. As the malanthrope is cheaper and is built to sit back and buff units it is in it's element on the back lines keeping our shootie bugs alive, where the prime wants to be mid range at farthest from the action to use it's short range and buff the short range of the warriors it's with. So it makes the Malanthrope our only real choice for so many places in our army. This is why it seems it's overpowered but really it is just good at what it does. If he gets assaulted by any "good" melee unit he dies which makes him I'd say pointed just about right. We need more lower point HQ options like the malanthrope to enhance our units.

Though avalable as "cheap" HQ's I am not including GSC ones due to them not being Hive fleet and not haveing really any synergy with actual Tyranid units (though there are some fun combos the other way around...Broodlord to cast catalist on Purestrain Genestealers with an Icon in range gives a 5++inv/5+++ Catalist/6+++ Icon save makeing for some nigh invunerable genestealers)

 luke1705 wrote:
Shuppet what HQ choices are you taking instead of the Malanthrope? I assume a broodlord or two and maybe Old One Eye, but the Malanthrope is better than Old One Eye and increases the survivability of your army by so much. Way better than a hive tyrant or a prime, and certainly better than a Tervigon. The Swarmlord is good but gets targeted and killed so fast that you need a Tyrannocyte or the equivalent amount of Tyrant Guard to keep him alive at all. At that point, he's almost 450 points. Yikes.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with any of that. I was running Malanthrope for a while. It doesn't do much when you are running 6 Carnifexes, you can't get them all in the shroudcloud and your opponent can just first shoot at the ones that don't. It also can't even keep up with them after a turn as they just run straight forward. Not a good choice.

I was playing round with Old One Eye and StoneCrushers, but I found I much prefer the damage projection of shooty Fexes, although the numbers on 6 OOE buffed Stonecrushers are ridic :O

Once I started running Warriors though it was a no-brainer, so I now run the Tyranid Prime. Prime buffed Warriors on the movy basically match a stationary Fleshborer Tyrannofex for shooting - and for CC its not even comparable. And unlike the Malanthrope the Prime itself actually contributes, and has a good chance of making a chunk of his points back on his own. He's cheap fill this slot and is worth his points.


I'm not saying Malanthrope isn't often the best option available, as it is a cheap enough unit to fill the mandatory HQ slot that can help the survivability of key units that you choose it to cover. It doesn't do this so well when you've built for redundancy, and have zero use for the synapse however. I'm just saying that sometimes it's not necessarily worth the points, even if it does still happen to make the list for being the best option available. At other times, eg like when you have two units of Biovores and an Exocrine sitting back while everything else runs in - it might be worth the 100 pt tax. It's a balanced unit that most certainly doesn't need nerfs, and would probably belong in a lot less lists if there was other better options. I also believe people have overinflated opinions of the unit a little too. Just my opinion.
Nid players should also consider building in a way that makes one of the HQs a better choice, Warriors and Stealers are excellent units and both synergize very well and neatly with their Lord unit. OOE is potentially bonkers as well. Swarmy is pricey but can have big game impact. Tervigon is a definite let down though. Red Terror should be HQ. Unsure about Hive Tyrants at the moment but they probably need a bit more damage and a bit cheaper if they are going to be that glassy. Hoping we get a cool Parasite as well. Malanthrope is good for what it is but not really better than the other HQs, just a little more versatile.

The Malanthrope is a lynchpin unit because the rest of the book cant stack up to the competitive meta right now on the top tier. If you nerf it, Nids are no longer in contention for top tier. IF malanthropes need a nerf (and I dont believe they do) it would have to come with buffs to other units to balance the faction.

That's still a ridiculous statement. No way is it a lynchpin. I have plenty of Synapse in my list and not having the very short ranged -1 to hit doesn't hurt me at all. It might be a lynchpin for for the monster lists, but my swarms do just fine without him.

To Swarmlord or not to Swarmlord, that is the question.

Um... no its not, the army does just fine without it tho. Only does amazing in a MC list, if you do any type of swarms its not any better than Venomthropes.

The aura is only for units -1 with in range, other than that..... it doesnt do anything else.

I mean... all my harlequins vehicles/bikes are -1 to hit and they deal WAY more damage than the Malanthrope ever will, while keeping my unit alive for only 9pts more lol.

I always Swarmlord sadly. I find his extra move too valuable. I keep him hidden using his extra move ability on my units until I get most of the heavy shooting tied up or killed off, then I run him in to slaughter what's left.

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
I always Swarmlord sadly. I find his extra move too valuable. I keep him hidden using his extra move ability on my units until I get most of the heavy shooting tied up or killed off, then I run him in to slaughter what's left.

Okay interesting - what do you find he kills well or the best? How fragile is he?

 Lance845 wrote:
They need to fix venomthropes by making them not targetable or expanding their aura to cover everything instead of just infantry. Its not the malanthropes fault venoms dont get taken. Venoms are far too vulnerable for their niche benefit.

This. Venomthropes are ass. Forgeworld isn't allowed in tournaments in my region, so I can't take Malanthropes. Even so, I don't run Venomthropes. There's no way I'm paying 93pts for that.

Venomthropes should be 1-3 per unit and protect all Tyranid units like the Malanthrope, not just infantry.