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 Niiai wrote:
It looks a bit like a one trick pony. Once long ranged weapons take out the synapse the biovores will have a hard time prioratising targets. Flyres can just move over your spore mines.

Besides that it looks like a fun list.

Killing the Malanthrope will be difficult. We're playing ITC so first level ruins will be LoS blocking. Even if they can't see the biovores they'll still be closer on all sides than the malanthrope so without some sniping mechanic they'll have a hard time kiliing it.

Hi everybody!

Made a pretty fun list of nids, cults and AM. Haven't tried it out yet, maybe this weekend.

What do you think?

Total pts: 1998
Battalion D.

Broodlord
Swarmy

Ripperx3
Termagaunts x15
- Fleshborers
Termagaunts x14
- Fleshborers

Tyrannocyte

Super Heavy D.
Shadowsword
- Volcano Cannon, 2 lasconnon and som other stuff

Vanguard D.
Primus
Primus

Purestrain Genestealers x13
Purestrain Genestealers x13
Purestrain Genestealers x13

The Primus lets me reroll the cult ambush, looking for a 5+ to get in fast and deadly. Swarmy in the Tyrannocyte uses hive commander on himself to get were he wants to be. Rippers for objective and termagaunts to bubblewrap and protect the backlines from enemy deepstrike.

So... what do you guys thnik?

 reaverX wrote:
I have a GT I'm attending in OK this weekend.
Mucolid Spore *Warlord* ibb.co/fuff65 (link to the spore...it's worth a click)

Exalted

Down right regal.

 reaverX wrote:

18 single man units of Biovores

Okay so there is actually a fairly straight forward equation here with Mortal wounds vs. easy-to-kill wounds vs. hard-to-kill wounds.

What I mean is that a Biovore costs 36pts and does 1+ MW 83% of the time for 36pts (I appreciate it lands a sporemine if it misses which may then get blown up before dealing any damage.. ignoring the intrinsic benefit of this, lets just assume 36pts = 83% for 1+ MW (Which is basically false but) will help highlight my point)

A Wyvern kills 3.5-4 GEQ's. Cost approx 100pts. 100pts worth of Biovores does 2.38 wounds. Logic meaning points spent on Wyverns is better (or whichever comparable platform).

The question is at which point do Biovores start out-performing weapons? Because a unit with 10W, T20 and a 2+ re-rollable armour save; a Biovore is unquestionably better than the best regular anti-tank weapon (non-MW causing). An extreme example but there will be a tipping point (granted, please don't use my simplistic 83% = 1+ MW, Because that is bad math!).

Food for thought (which is apt, given the OP title).

Yet it is. If we factor the D3 MW inflicted on a 6, a biovore hit will inflict 1 MW in average (2/3 + 1/6*2 = 1).

Razerous wrote:

 reaverX wrote:
I have a GT I'm attending in OK this weekend.
Mucolid Spore *Warlord* ibb.co/fuff65 (link to the spore...it's worth a click)

Exalted

Down right regal.

 reaverX wrote:

18 single man units of Biovores

Okay so there is actually a fairly straight forward equation here with Mortal wounds vs. easy-to-kill wounds vs. hard-to-kill wounds.

What I mean is that a Biovore costs 36pts and does 1+ MW 83% of the time for 36pts (I appreciate it lands a sporemine if it misses which may then get blown up before dealing any damage.. ignoring the intrinsic benefit of this, lets just assume 36pts = 83% for 1+ MW (Which is basically false but) will help highlight my point)

A Wyvern kills 3.5-4 GEQ's. Cost approx 100pts. 100pts worth of Biovores does 2.38 wounds. Logic meaning points spent on Wyverns is better (or whichever comparable platform).

The question is at which point do Biovores start out-performing weapons? Because a unit with 10W, T20 and a 2+ re-rollable armour save; a Biovore is unquestionably better than the best regular anti-tank weapon (non-MW causing). An extreme example but there will be a tipping point (granted, please don't use my simplistic 83% = 1+ MW, Because that is bad math!).

Food for thought (which is apt, given the OP title).

Can't follow your math, as far as i know a biovore inflicts 1 mortal wound 50% of the time.

A wivern inflicts 6,22 wounds on a T3, 5,25 on a T4, 3,85 on a T 5-7, 2,11 on T8+
3 biovores inflict on average 1,5 MW on any target, this means that the tipping point is:
2+ armor for T3 targets
2+ armor for T4 targets
3+ armor for T5-7 targets
4+ armor for T8+ targets

If the target has those values of armor or better then biovores inflict more wounds than a wivern.

Are there t8 4+ save units? Did you do your math without Armor saves?

AT8 3+ save model 0.39% chance of a wound.
Against T7 3+ it does 0.78% chance of a wound.
Against T3 5+ it does 3.11 wounds (vs 6+ is 3.89)

Unless im missing something?

Each Biovore basically has a 0.42 to do 1 mortal wound and a 0.083 chance of D3 mortal wounds.

I love Biovores, but what makes them good is if they miss you still have a chance to do something. The raw hitting numbers and wounds are not that good tho.

I did the math first without armor saves for different T values, so all wounds were mortal wounds.
After that i calculated what armor save would the target need to make it so that the few mortal wounds of the biovores would actually matter more than the many normal wounds of the wyverns.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Are there t8 4+ save units? Did you do your math without Armor saves?

AT8 3+ save model 0.39% chance of a wound.
Against T7 3+ it does 0.78% chance of a wound.
Against T3 5+ it does 3.11 wounds (vs 6+ is 3.89)

Unless im missing something?

Each Biovore basically has a 0.42 to do 1 mortal wound and a 0.083 chance of D3 mortal wounds.

I love Biovores, but what makes them good is if they miss you still have a chance to do something. The raw hitting numbers and wounds are not that good tho.

I like my 8x3 biovore army and there are a few thinks to keep in mind;

- With this amount of mortal wounds I almost always kill a big target right away. So no more returning fire, and the possibility to just remove the thing you that gives you the most grief is a great thing.
- Biovore mines only need to be within 3 inch at the end of the assault phase, so don't actually need to assault to explode. Movement + advance + 3 inch is pretty fast for a floating mine.
- Players underestimate the movement blocking. It's really handy. I combine my biovores with devourer gaunts, and the possibility to block enemy infantry from getting within rapid fire range really helps the gaunts and limits returning fire.
- Biovores are sturdy. 4 wounds, 4+ save. Also 2 attacks believe it or not. Once actually assaulted a big enemy infantry unit with a big bunch of biovores. Enemy unit was forced to 'pile in' and this way I could let the spore mines explode within 3 inch (doesn't specify at who's end of the assault phase..).
- To remove mines it actually cost the enemy a good amount of shooting. Splitting fire means that sometimes rapid fire weapons gives a mine two wounds and some mines nothing. To remove 10 individual mines you actually need to shoot with 2 x 20 lasgun shots.

I didnt say it was bad, i even said i like them, i was just showing math b.c i didnt understand Spoletta's math lol

Yes, this was just a purely mathematical discussion

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I didnt say it was bad, i even said i like them, i was just showing math b.c i didnt understand Spoletta's math lol

I never said that you said the where bad.

You just wrote that you liked them for their ability to still being able to do something when the miss and I just gave a few examples of that despite the fact that some weapons are better versus some enemy units at wounding.

I just think a lot of players are a little bit to wrapped up with one on one math equations and tend to forget the other tactics involving units.

I love them, but you do have to take them in large enough numbers to be meaningful if you want them to do more than just act as a harassment unit. I think we would see more of them being used if we had a proper kit for them too.

Yeah the biovore is currently horribly priced. I ended up creating my own using the body of a genestealer, inverted arms of large creature's scything talons for the front arms, and the gun of a large barbed strangler for the launcher. Throw in some green stuff for sacs of spore mines and there ya go.

We desperately need a pyrovore/biovore plastic model.

Quick question. I'm building my first box of stealers. Is there any reason NOT to give them one pair each of talons and rending claws? Looking at the index I don't see why I wouldn't.

Not in the current index. But we get a new book soon. Or the edition after that. Take them if you want them but do expect them to be free for ever.

Spoletta wrote:
We desperately need a pyrovore/biovore plastic model.

Them, and a chunk of others have been showing out of stock online for a good while now, my guess because their kits are getting updated or changed for the new dex. Warriors are out, maybe because shrike parts are being included, hive/tyrant guard, carnifexes HOPEFULLY to get a new kit because the current one is ABOMINABLE, not in look, but in how the pieces fit together...Like you MUST puddy the current fex, the gaps in the back are horrendous.

Hive/Tyrant guard is a great kit currently.

A lot of out of stock is simply because GW got hit hard with massive sales across all ranges at the same time with 8th edition. It's basically pushed their production to the absolute limit and it shows.

This is a good thing as it means that the game is selling really really well!

In the past GW only did one army at a time so they had time to build up stock levels before a launch and also time after to produce more focused on one army over others. Right now they've got all factions selling strong and so little time between codex that they don't have a huge bunch of time to restock before another army is the focus.

I fully expect this to ease off once the codex releases are done. Indeed I'd expect GW to take a small step back with 40K releases and use their Sigma or alternative lines to bolster releases for a while; jus to take some pressure off the model line.

Hi.

I've heard that I could come here for some tentativ strategic information regarding Nids tactics...

I'm about to go head to head with AM very soon and I'm fine tuning my list all over my head again and again.

This is the first time in 8ed I'm meeting him, and my second match in 8ed.

I'm thinking of bringig a LOT of gaunts x 3, a tervigon and other fun things. I've heard he's probably bringing all the flamers he can field....

So my question is should I either bring another dakkafex OR a pack of venomthropes? a dakkafex that shoots 12 str 7 -1 and charges with the anti personell tail is quite good, but is it better than keeping more gaunts alive that I then can regenerate?

Well 10 flamers kill about 15 gaunts although there is quite a bit of range, as 3 flamers can kill 18 but that would require rolling 3 6;s and then wounding 18 times on a 4+ (I.e not very likely).

So don't be too worried about needing to bring more screening units

I would include a couple of ripperswarm units, which I'm sure you can build with the Bitz you should have after making a few units of Tyranids (I can't remember which kits include them). Use these to deep-strike at moments of opportunity to capture objectures, screen key units from fire or charges or to tie-up shooty units.

A dakkafex is a good shout but it will go down surprisingly quickly to anti-tank firepower (just be aware).

Personally I like a distraction Mawloc or three (very cheap T6 wounds on a surprisingly utilitarian platform!), works well to distract from the other big Nids bugs like Carnifexes and Tervigons.

Hmmm, I hadn't thought of using ripper swarms for that.
I have lots of ripper swarms....

Would you switch one of three termagaunts units with 3 ripper units? then I could hold them back as tactical reserves...

That does sound good.

But I thought a Mawloc didn't quite work as well in 8ed since it can't charge and it's eating a whole lot less than before..?
Trygon can atleast shoot and charge (and possibly fail of course).

Would you bring Mawloc instead of a carnifex? or change Venomthrope to Mawloc?

RogueApiary wrote:
Quick question. I'm building my first box of stealers. Is there any reason NOT to give them one pair each of talons and rending claws? Looking at the index I don't see why I wouldn't.

I suggest to put them on as the middle set of limbs and point them downwards while pronouncing the rending claws as primary limbs. That way you have the talons on the models but if they become a suboptimal choice later, you could still use the stealers as pure rending if you don't play too picky pricks all the time.
Reasoning is that whatever the edition rending claws have always been what stealers are about and likely will always be. So let that weapon stick out.

Ideally you wait until the dex hits later this year. Put the models together but leave out the second set of limbs. Again unless someone is an arse they will still play your unfinished models if you tell them you wait for the dex to decide the load-out. In the index there is zero reason to not take them. There is also very little reason to use them. RC are just better against everything with a save of 5+ and better. Demons would be an example where the talons are better. The amount of models with nothing but an invul is not that huge though.

So if you desperately want to finish the models before the dex and have picky opponents, leave the talons off.

Have a nice day!

NidsNidsNids wrote:
Hmmm, I hadn't thought of using ripper swarms for that.
I have lots of ripper swarms....

Would you switch one of three termagaunts units with 3 ripper units? then I could hold them back as tactical reserves...

That does sound good.

But I thought a Mawloc didn't quite work as well in 8ed since it can't charge and it's eating a whole lot less than before..?
Trygon can atleast shoot and charge (and possibly fail of course).

Would you bring Mawloc instead of a carnifex? or change Venomthrope to Mawloc?

Fighting against AM can be an uphill battle for nids, but i think that playing venoms and a lot of stuff that benefits from them (infantry) is a good start. That -1 really hurts on Bs4+ guards, and you can always slap an additional -1 on an enemy unit. Big targets get a rough treatment from AM, they have no shortage of heavy weapons for cheap. Even if he brings flamers, i think that going for number of models is the right way. Mawlocs are fine, they will go down fast, but are really cheap. Instead i would advise against daffexes, they are not going to be useful while still alive.
Another gold model here are lictors, guard's artillery doesn't fly, so just pop a couple of lictors and charge at them. Stopping them from firing for 1 or 2 turns can save the match. If he makes the mistake to put them one near the other you can always charge one and consolidate on both. Lictors have 4 wounds and usually have a 3+ when declaring a charge, so they rarely die from overwatch.
Get some warriors or shrikes to escort your gaunts, they will also benefit from the venoms. A broodlord (or a prime) as a last resort synapse can be handy also.
If you have a catalyst, you either try to protect the Tervigon so that she survives for one turn, or you protect the venoms if they are in LoS.

Yeah, Mawloc is Cheap, and Mortal Wounds Rawk. I'd use Mawlocs, and Lictors against the backline Artty. If you can sprinkle in Devilgaunts you can sit outside of doubletap range and get him to come to you, just fall back so the Flamers are out of range (9+") he might even take them as casualties in frustration, and Then you can charge.

Good luck! And good Hunting! (Against guard luck is needed )

I always charge with gargoyles first and then follow with the genestealers as long as I have the unit engaged. long chargers from outside the range of flamers is also a good tactic for denying that overwatch from them.

What are people's thoughts on Ravener units (with and without the Red Terror)?

I love raveners personally, but they are just too vulnerable right now for my tastes. I'd rather load up on more bodies.

I've been using raveners quite successfully as extra bodies to support and screen a Trygon with 20 devgaunts. I have 3 units of 3 (to help fill a brigade) and the red terror all deep strike together along with a Trygon Prime and 20 devgaunts. I equip my raveners with deathspitters but they could be made cheaper with the pistols. I just like the flexibility of deathspitters range and AP. My local meta has quite a few deathguard and primaris players to take advantage of the AP.

Along with that, I take a Malanthrope and 6 individual biovores. I move the biovores so they hit on 5+ and lay down a wall of spore mines to protect the raveners from a counter charge. Once they're down for a turn, their 12" movement turns them into a real pain in the rear for my opponents. I charge them into tanks or other shooty things to disrupt them.

I keep seeing people take biovores in units of 1 instead of 3. Is this so you can place down cheap units to force the opponent to reveal deployment information or is there a reason to do so that I'm not seeing