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SemperMortis wrote:
I think I am going to have to purchase a lot of Wartracks now. I see them ironically as a star unit for us.

T5, 12-14 (Track/buggie) movement and can fire a S5 or S8 weapon while outflanking. They aren't good at CC since they are only S4 but they do have 4 attacks base and if you teamed them up with some Deffkoptas they would make a fearsome force to hit the enemies rear lines.

They're wicked. If they'd just put out a good rokkit buggy model.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Its kinda strange how nobody except a few BBQminded ork players ever used burna's in 7th and everybody seems ok on them getting nerfed to less hits, less ap and no ignore cover.

Burna is 0 points and comes in droves. Flamer is 9 points...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 docdoom77 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I think I am going to have to purchase a lot of Wartracks now. I see them ironically as a star unit for us.

T5, 12-14 (Track/buggie) movement and can fire a S5 or S8 weapon while outflanking. They aren't good at CC since they are only S4 but they do have 4 attacks base and if you teamed them up with some Deffkoptas they would make a fearsome force to hit the enemies rear lines.

They're wicked. If they'd just put out a good rokkit buggy model.

Maybe that tire on the community page rumor is a new kit.

SemperMortis wrote:

Spoiler:

 davou wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


Trukkz have a worse save, have lower toughness, have worse ballistic skill. But hey we can shoot BS2 shots out of it so its all good....

Trukkz should be 6pts cheaper (minimum) then a rhino.

And you keep forgetting the biggest nerf that happened to trukkz and that buffed Rhinos. ASSAULT FROM A VEHICLE.

The only reason ANYONE took a trukk in 7th was to rush a unit forward to get into CC. You went forward, dropped off your boyz and they charged home because they were an assault vehicle. Rhinos could not do this because they weren't assault. So what happened now? Nobody can move and disgorge troops. So Trukkz and Rhinos are both equally good now at the primary purpose of a Trukk, getting Boyz into Combat.

Just because you keep shouting does not make you suddenly correct.

Toughness matters less, if you look at the wound chart in 8th you would see this. Theres only really two spots where difference of t6 and t7 matter.

And no, people took a trukk to shield boys and get them up. And because they're awesome. Now they can roll up and beat on people with construction equipment; that alone is cool as hell.

Comparing a truck and a rhino is like comparing aluminum siding to a hit pop song. They are two different things doing two different jobs. Marines need the protective layer much less, so the ablative layer outside the squad matters less. They don't really want to get dug in (unless they are outclassed in shooting) even if they are halfway decent at it, so speed is less important to them. If marines could trade their rhino for our trukk, they'd do it in a heartbeat, just so that they could run away and shoot at people all game.

If a bad save and ballistic were a problem for you, then tell me why did you choose orks? Like honestly, what were you expecting out of 8th ed?

You can still rush up field and drop off boys, you just have to pre-meditate it a little better than you did in prior edditions. For me, thats a welome change considering they no longer die just because someone looked up their rules in the codex.

Jesus you really like missing the point dont you? I mean it has to be your favorite thing to do.

I am not mad that Rhinos got a better save, more toughness, better BS and didnt lose a major ability like trukkz did. I am upset that when GW did all of this they didn't change the prices correctly. Trukkz got better in some ways and significantly worse in their primary mission. Rhino's got significantly better in their primary mission (transporting) gained assault from vehicle and they lost 2 Firepoint shots, which aren't important in reality.

So why did trukkz become so much more expensive when they lost things while rhinos pretty much gained things and went up in price less then the trukk did.

now please stop with your repetitive posts missing the key element of mine.

yep, and that is the main reason the trukk is overpriced. if it had the same profile as now v sa rhino, but could move before the orks got out to assault it would 100% be worth the points. not it et them halfway up the board, weather the storm of fire and hope not to lose the trukk then get out and try to charge the next turn though if your opponent is smart they spent their turn getting farther away from your trukk so gg now you need ti to survive 2 turns before likely being able to charge.

Lol burna's aren't truely 0 points they just come with the model. That isn't the same.
They actually cost slightly more than 14 (burna boy cost) - 6 ( boy cost) = 8 points since burna boyz are just regular ork boyz with a burna minus choppa and slugga's.
I would rate those at at least 1 point, so they appear to be just as coslty as a SM flamer. Except not that good and on a less survivable model

Daedalus81 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Its kinda strange how nobody except a few BBQminded ork players ever used burna's in 7th and everybody seems ok on them getting nerfed to less hits, less ap and no ignore cover.

Burna is 0 points and comes in droves. Flamer is 9 points...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 docdoom77 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I think I am going to have to purchase a lot of Wartracks now. I see them ironically as a star unit for us.

T5, 12-14 (Track/buggie) movement and can fire a S5 or S8 weapon while outflanking. They aren't good at CC since they are only S4 but they do have 4 attacks base and if you teamed them up with some Deffkoptas they would make a fearsome force to hit the enemies rear lines.

They're wicked. If they'd just put out a good rokkit buggy model.

Maybe that tire on the community page rumor is a new kit.

I really hope so. I doubt it. But I hope.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Its kinda strange how nobody except a few BBQminded ork players ever used burna's in 7th and everybody seems ok on them getting nerfed to less hits, less ap and no ignore cover.

Burna is 0 points and comes in droves. Flamer is 9 points...

It doesn't have to cost anything when the price for the Burna is already incorporated into the cost of the model that carries it.

Difference between a Burna Boy and a regular boy = NOTHING
Difference in price between a Burna Boy and a regular Boy = 8pts.

So you are paying 8pts to give your Boy a D3 auto hit weapon that functions as a type of Power weapon in CC

Realistically Burna Boyz just became Bloodletters with a worse armor save and a Range 8 D3 autohit S4 weapon.

SemperMortis wrote:

It doesn't have to cost anything when the price for the Burna is already incorporated into the cost of the model that carries it.

Difference between a Burna Boy and a regular boy = NOTHING
Difference in price between a Burna Boy and a regular Boy = 8pts.

So you are paying 8pts to give your Boy a D3 auto hit weapon that functions as a type of Power weapon in CC

Realistically Burna Boyz just became Bloodletters with a worse armor save and a Range 8 D3 autohit S4 weapon.

Yup - sorry - I misread Burna Boy cost. I can't find a good reason for them to be at those points currently.

I cannot believe people keep saying that orks are not at a disadvantage, or that the point values are fair. Sure some things went up for space marines as well, but the changes are still clearly in their favor. GW obviously doesn't know (or care) that saves are a big part of the game and good ones should cost much more than they do. It isn't just orks either. Even in the space marine list there are obvious better choices as far as units and gear. GW just doesn't know how to point things.

I wonder if they had left 'ard boyz in as to what they would make them cost. A basic space marine is 13 points. A scout is 10 or 11? Wouldn't a scout still be much better than an 'ard boy if they were still 10 points? And how big is the difference of 3 points between the 'ardboy and basic space marine?

I don't think ork points should go down, but space marines should definitely go up. Their armor save alone is too good for their points, especially with the new changes to cover.

Lootas also went up in cost like 3 points each, but due to how the game works they won't have any chance of surviving long. They usually had 4+cover before, now it is 5+ cover unless the weapon shooting at them is ap anything.. Their ability to damage high armor targets now is ok, but the loss in defense should counter act that. Saves are king in this game and not getting them or having poor saves is why orks suck. Tons of models doesn't matter now because every army has tons of high volume shots to remove hordes. Even more so now that twin linked is double shots now. Orks will die so much faster now. As will every other low save army.

The cost difference between assault terminators and mega nobz is ridiculous. A mega nob with two kill saws is like 10 points more than an assault terminator with storm shield and thunder hammer... thunder hammers are x2 str and 3 wounds.. not d3, but 3. And cost 20 points... a kill saw is 28 points... even when given to a mek with str 4.. Sure the mega nob has 1 more wound... but the storm shield alone accounts for far more than 1 wound. And Str 5x2 is higher, but only really matters when fighting a handful of other units in the game. For the most part it will still be 3+ to wound for both units on the vast majority of units.

Want to know the dumbest thing I saw in the space marine codex point wise? Combat shield 4 points... Storm shield 5 points... wtf?

SemperMortis wrote:
Jesus you really like missing the point dont you? I mean it has to be your favorite thing to do.

I am not mad that Rhinos got a better save, more toughness, better BS and didnt lose a major ability like trukkz did. I am upset that when GW did all of this they didn't change the prices correctly. Trukkz got better in some ways and significantly worse in their primary mission.

No one is missing your point; your point is just terrible and uninformed so you're being called out on it.

A trukk and a rhino do two different jobs, for two vastly different armies. A transport you can assault out of is WORTH MORE points to an assault army than a transport you can assault out of for an army that does not specialize in assault. Sure rhinos gained this ability, but they don't benefit from it? If orks suddenly had access to railguns, should they pay the same points for them as tau do with marker-lights and higher BS? Two equal things in two different armies are no longer equal. Even if something has better stats in one army, it can be worth less because it does not compliment the role it has in the army. Do you think tau would want to pay for a battlesuit that could carry a waggh banner?

So why did trukkz become so much more expensive when they lost things while rhinos pretty much gained things and went up in price less then the trukk did.

Because a trukk is demonstrably a better transport. It synergizes well with almost everything in the ork codex.

Rhino's got significantly better in their primary mission (transporting) gained assault from vehicle and they lost 2 Firepoint shots, which aren't important in reality.

I'm sorry dude but those two fire points were SUPER important. Shooting out the top hatch of a rhino was all some people did with theirs. Given that HW now only suffer -1 bs when moving loosing that ability hurts even more. There's a reason people called them mobile pillboxes.

now please stop with your repetitive posts missing the key element of mine.

Certainly not. You're wrong, and you're being very loud and obnoxious about it.

I can't find the point cost for a Spanner - what am I missing? I suppose just the cost of a Burna Boy?

 davou wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Jesus you really like missing the point dont you? I mean it has to be your favorite thing to do.

I am not mad that Rhinos got a better save, more toughness, better BS and didnt lose a major ability like trukkz did. I am upset that when GW did all of this they didn't change the prices correctly. Trukkz got better in some ways and significantly worse in their primary mission.

No one is missing your point; your point is just terrible and uninformed so you're being called out on it.

A trukk and a rhino do two different jobs, for two vastly different armies. A transport you can assault out of is WORTH MORE points to an assault army than a transport you can assault out of for an army that does not specialize in assault. Sure rhinos gained this ability, but they don't benefit from it? If orks suddenly had access to railguns, should they pay the same points for them as tau do with marker-lights and higher BS? Two equal things in two different armies are no longer equal. Even if something has better stats in one army, it can be worth less because it does not compliment the role it has in the army. Do you think tau would want to pay for a battlesuit that could carry a waggh banner?

So why did trukkz become so much more expensive when they lost things while rhinos pretty much gained things and went up in price less then the trukk did.

Because a trukk is demonstrably a better transport. It synergizes well with almost everything in the ork codex.

Rhino's got significantly better in their primary mission (transporting) gained assault from vehicle and they lost 2 Firepoint shots, which aren't important in reality.

I'm sorry dude but those two fire points were SUPER important. Shooting out the top hatch of a rhino was all some people did with theirs. Given that HW now only suffer -1 bs when moving loosing that ability hurts even more. There's a reason people called them mobile pillboxes.

now please stop with your repetitive posts missing the key element of mine.

Certainly not. You're wrong, and you're being very loud and obnoxious about it.

I am missing the part where people are agreeing with you, in point of fact we seem to mostly be pointing out how we disagree with your assessment.

again if a trukk could move then the unit disembark game on, but they cannot and so saying this is somehow better on a trukk than a rhino is flawed as they function exactly the same

 Frothmog wrote:

I don't think ork points should go down, but space marines should definitely go up. Their armor save alone is too good for their points, especially with the new changes to cover.

The biggest weakness of good armor is weight of fire. Given that more things can fire more of the time and more shots are coming from twin linked it's sort of a necessity.

 Frothmog wrote:
I cannot believe people keep saying that orks are not at a disadvantage, or that the point values are fair. Sure some things went up for space marines as well, but the changes are still clearly in their favor. GW obviously doesn't know (or care) that saves are a big part of the game and good ones should cost much more than they do. It isn't just orks either. Even in the space marine list there are obvious better choices as far as units and gear. GW just doesn't know how to point things.

I wonder if they had left 'ard boyz in as to what they would make them cost. A basic space marine is 13 points. A scout is 10 or 11? Wouldn't a scout still be much better than an 'ard boy if they were still 10 points? And how big is the difference of 3 points between the 'ardboy and basic space marine?

I don't think ork points should go down, but space marines should definitely go up. Their armor save alone is too good for their points, especially with the new changes to cover.

Lootas also went up in cost like 3 points each, but due to how the game works they won't have any chance of surviving long. They usually had 4+cover before, now it is 5+ cover unless the weapon shooting at them is ap anything.. Their ability to damage high armor targets now is ok, but the loss in defense should counter act that. Saves are king in this game and not getting them or having poor saves is why orks suck. Tons of models doesn't matter now because every army has tons of high volume shots to remove hordes. Even more so now that twin linked is double shots now. Orks will die so much faster now. As will every other low save army.

The cost difference between assault terminators and mega nobz is ridiculous. A mega nob with two kill saws is like 10 points more than an assault terminator with storm shield and thunder hammer... thunder hammers are x2 str and 3 wounds.. not d3, but 3. And cost 20 points... a kill saw is 28 points... even when given to a mek with str 4.. Sure the mega nob has 1 more wound... but the storm shield alone accounts for far more than 1 wound. And Str 5x2 is higher, but only really matters when fighting a handful of other units in the game. For the most part it will still be 3+ to wound for both units on the vast majority of units.

Want to know the dumbest thing I saw in the space marine codex point wise? Combat shield 4 points... Storm shield 5 points... wtf?

Meganob with 2 Killsaws has S10 and 4 attacks and 3 wounds vs S8 2 Attacks and 2 wounds. Killsaw is also AP -4 Vs AP -3. So Completely ignores 3+ saves and 2+ is a 6+ instead of granting saves on 6+ and 5+.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Frothmog wrote:

I don't think ork points should go down, but space marines should definitely go up. Their armor save alone is too good for their points, especially with the new changes to cover.

The biggest weakness of good armor is weight of fire. Given that more things can fire more of the time and more shots are coming from twin linked it's sort of a necessity.

Yea, but that doesn't mean that space marines should only be 13 points. Weight of fire also need a good BS. Other wise your just grabbing tons of dice to roll and taking longer to pick out all the misses... or the few hits.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

 Frothmog wrote:
I cannot believe people keep saying that orks are not at a disadvantage, or that the point values are fair. Sure some things went up for space marines as well, but the changes are still clearly in their favor. GW obviously doesn't know (or care) that saves are a big part of the game and good ones should cost much more than they do. It isn't just orks either. Even in the space marine list there are obvious better choices as far as units and gear. GW just doesn't know how to point things.

I wonder if they had left 'ard boyz in as to what they would make them cost. A basic space marine is 13 points. A scout is 10 or 11? Wouldn't a scout still be much better than an 'ard boy if they were still 10 points? And how big is the difference of 3 points between the 'ardboy and basic space marine?

I don't think ork points should go down, but space marines should definitely go up. Their armor save alone is too good for their points, especially with the new changes to cover.

Lootas also went up in cost like 3 points each, but due to how the game works they won't have any chance of surviving long. They usually had 4+cover before, now it is 5+ cover unless the weapon shooting at them is ap anything.. Their ability to damage high armor targets now is ok, but the loss in defense should counter act that. Saves are king in this game and not getting them or having poor saves is why orks suck. Tons of models doesn't matter now because every army has tons of high volume shots to remove hordes. Even more so now that twin linked is double shots now. Orks will die so much faster now. As will every other low save army.

The cost difference between assault terminators and mega nobz is ridiculous. A mega nob with two kill saws is like 10 points more than an assault terminator with storm shield and thunder hammer... thunder hammers are x2 str and 3 wounds.. not d3, but 3. And cost 20 points... a kill saw is 28 points... even when given to a mek with str 4.. Sure the mega nob has 1 more wound... but the storm shield alone accounts for far more than 1 wound. And Str 5x2 is higher, but only really matters when fighting a handful of other units in the game. For the most part it will still be 3+ to wound for both units on the vast majority of units.

Want to know the dumbest thing I saw in the space marine codex point wise? Combat shield 4 points... Storm shield 5 points... wtf?

Meganob with 2 Killsaws has S10 and 4 attacks and 3 wounds vs S8 2 Attacks and 2 wounds. Killsaw is also AP -4 Vs AP -3. So Completely ignores 3+ saves and 2+ is a 6+ instead of granting saves on 6+ and 5+.

And you think that is 10 points better than a storm shield? Also, kill saw is 2 wounds, not 3. Unless you meant the guy has 2 wounds instead of the nobs 3. Their weapon does 3 damage compared to the nobs 2, so the attacks isn't as big a deal as you might think, plus the storm shield usually counts for more than 1 wound with how many it saves vs just 2+ armor.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Frothmog wrote:

I don't think ork points should go down, but space marines should definitely go up. Their armor save alone is too good for their points, especially with the new changes to cover.

The biggest weakness of good armor is weight of fire. Given that more things can fire more of the time and more shots are coming from twin linked it's sort of a necessity.

In some ways the changes to AP hurt good armor more in this edition. IN 7th you got your 3+ against most things, now anything that has any AP is dropping your effectiveness. Orks already got their saves ignored by most things.

Now cover mitigates this some, but marines sitting in cover aren't out accomplishing missions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frothmog wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Frothmog wrote:

I don't think ork points should go down, but space marines should definitely go up. Their armor save alone is too good for their points, especially with the new changes to cover.

The biggest weakness of good armor is weight of fire. Given that more things can fire more of the time and more shots are coming from twin linked it's sort of a necessity.

Yea, but that doesn't mean that space marines should only be 13 points. Weight of fire also need a good BS. Other wise your just grabbing tons of dice to roll and taking longer to pick out all the misses... or the few hits.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

 Frothmog wrote:
I cannot believe people keep saying that orks are not at a disadvantage, or that the point values are fair. Sure some things went up for space marines as well, but the changes are still clearly in their favor. GW obviously doesn't know (or care) that saves are a big part of the game and good ones should cost much more than they do. It isn't just orks either. Even in the space marine list there are obvious better choices as far as units and gear. GW just doesn't know how to point things.

I wonder if they had left 'ard boyz in as to what they would make them cost. A basic space marine is 13 points. A scout is 10 or 11? Wouldn't a scout still be much better than an 'ard boy if they were still 10 points? And how big is the difference of 3 points between the 'ardboy and basic space marine?

I don't think ork points should go down, but space marines should definitely go up. Their armor save alone is too good for their points, especially with the new changes to cover.

Lootas also went up in cost like 3 points each, but due to how the game works they won't have any chance of surviving long. They usually had 4+cover before, now it is 5+ cover unless the weapon shooting at them is ap anything.. Their ability to damage high armor targets now is ok, but the loss in defense should counter act that. Saves are king in this game and not getting them or having poor saves is why orks suck. Tons of models doesn't matter now because every army has tons of high volume shots to remove hordes. Even more so now that twin linked is double shots now. Orks will die so much faster now. As will every other low save army.

The cost difference between assault terminators and mega nobz is ridiculous. A mega nob with two kill saws is like 10 points more than an assault terminator with storm shield and thunder hammer... thunder hammers are x2 str and 3 wounds.. not d3, but 3. And cost 20 points... a kill saw is 28 points... even when given to a mek with str 4.. Sure the mega nob has 1 more wound... but the storm shield alone accounts for far more than 1 wound. And Str 5x2 is higher, but only really matters when fighting a handful of other units in the game. For the most part it will still be 3+ to wound for both units on the vast majority of units.

Want to know the dumbest thing I saw in the space marine codex point wise? Combat shield 4 points... Storm shield 5 points... wtf?

Meganob with 2 Killsaws has S10 and 4 attacks and 3 wounds vs S8 2 Attacks and 2 wounds. Killsaw is also AP -4 Vs AP -3. So Completely ignores 3+ saves and 2+ is a 6+ instead of granting saves on 6+ and 5+.

And you think that is 10 points better than a storm shield? Also, kill saw is 2 wounds, not 3.

Yes I do, Especially when you consider the cost of the squad, meganobs in a minimum squad run ~50 points cheaper, and if they want a transport run about 400 point cheaper. As for the wounds.

4 attacks will hit twice and like wound twice causing 4 wounds, with a max upside of 8 wounds, 2 attacks will hit once, and wound 1 causing 3 wounds, with a max of 6. Point for point, Meganobs will put out more damage (as a squad) than terminators. 5 Assault termies is 280 (with TH/SS), and will put out 12.5 wounds of damage on average (against T4 or lower), 22.4 points per wound, and they are significantly worse against single or 2 wound models (killing 4 models) and less with 3+ saves or better. 3 Meganobs with kill saws is only 189 points puts out 10 wound on average (against T5 or lower) so 18.9 points per wound. Will kill 5 models with 2 wounds or less. They are also better against T8 or 9 by a lot. 2 Similarly pointed units (4 Meganobs, Vs 5 Termies), Meganobs Kill 2.2termies, Termies kill 2.7 Meganobs. SO it will come down to the charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yes I meant the Nobs had 3 wounds vs 2 for terminators, this makes them much more durable vs small arms fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I wonder if they had left 'ard boyz in as to what they would make them cost. A basic space marine is 13 points. A scout is 10 or 11? Wouldn't a scout still be much better than an 'ard boy if they were still 10 points? And how big is the difference of 3 points between the 'ardboy and basic space marine? [u]


A boy in this edition would be better than a scout if he had a 4+ save. It just depends on the role, the extra attacks in combat matter quite a bit for a close combat unit.

 Frothmog wrote:

Yea, but that doesn't mean that space marines should only be 13 points. Weight of fire also need a good BS. Other wise your just grabbing tons of dice to roll and taking longer to pick out all the misses... or the few hits.

You can get 2 orks for every marine. That's 2 wounds to 1. With a point to spare.

It takes those 2 orks 4.5 turns to kill that marine.
It takes the marine 7.2 turns to kill those ork.

In combat it takes the orks 2.3 turns to kill the marine (with no choppa).
It takes the marine 7.2 turn again.

There are obviously other factors at play that make it so Orks are not twice as good, but I see little reason for a marine to cost more than it does now.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

I am missing the part where people are agreeing with you, in point of fact we seem to mostly be pointing out how we disagree with your assessment.

again if a trukk could move then the unit disembark game on, but they cannot and so saying this is somehow better on a trukk than a rhino is flawed as they function exactly the same

more than one of you can be wrong at once

If a trukk could move and then disembark and then the the units could move and assault... you would have potentially

12'' move, 3'' disembark, 5'' move, d6 run, 2d6 charge (with a reroll) for a potential total of 38 in charge range from turn one.... You dont see a problem with letting a CC centric army have that?

 davou wrote:


No one is missing your point; your point is just terrible and uninformed so you're being called out on it.

A trukk and a rhino do two different jobs, for two vastly different armies. A transport you can assault out of is WORTH MORE points to an assault army than a transport you can assault out of for an army that does not specialize in assault. Sure rhinos gained this ability, but they don't benefit from it? If orks suddenly had access to railguns, should they pay the same points for them as tau do with marker-lights and higher BS? Two equal things in two different armies are no longer equal. Even if something has better stats in one army, it can be worth less because it does not compliment the role it has in the army. Do you think tau would want to pay for a battlesuit that could carry a waggh banner?

Because a trukk is demonstrably a better transport. It synergizes well with almost everything in the ork codex.

The supreme Irony here is that Orks do in fact pay for "Railgun" type weapons the same price that other factions pay. Lets take a look shall we? Space Marines pay 13pts for a Plasma Gun which hits on 3s. Orks pay 9 for that same type of weapon. Not bad, 4pt difference in price right? in 6 turns of shooting a SM will hit 4 times in 6 turns of shooting that ork will hit 2 times. (He will also die by rolling a 1) so those 4pts generate TWICE the number of hits. It gets worse as well, they pay the same price for comparable pistols and the Cannons? Oh my god. Plasma Cannon is 21pts for D3 hits (average 2 shots and 1.6 hits) We pay 23pts for the KMK which is D6 shot at BS2 average 3-4 on a roll which means 1- 1.3hits a turn. so paying more for less across the board. Whoops that feths your argument a bit huh?

As for the Trukk synergizing well? A Rhino does to because guess what? Assault Marines are a thing, especially for special marine armies like BA and SW.

 davou wrote:

Certainly not. You're wrong, and you're being very loud and obnoxious about it.

Which is ironic since most people here seem to agree with me. But hey whatever floats your boat or toots your horn.

 davou wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

I am missing the part where people are agreeing with you, in point of fact we seem to mostly be pointing out how we disagree with your assessment.

again if a trukk could move then the unit disembark game on, but they cannot and so saying this is somehow better on a trukk than a rhino is flawed as they function exactly the same

more than one of you can be wrong at once

If a trukk could move and then disembark and then the the units could move and assault... you would have potentially

12'' move, 3'' disembark, 5'' move, d6 run, 2d6 charge (with a reroll) for a potential total of 38 in charge range from turn one.... You dont see a problem with letting a CC centric army have that?

potential and reality are often quite different. lets roll that back to realism here. also you are assuming they have a warboss in a trukk which is unlikely unless it is meganobz and a mega boss

11 boyz w/ nob move 12, get out 3, move 5 then average a 7 inch charge. you are looking at a 27 inch semi reliable charge as you can reroll the charge (has to be both dice) so a trukk load of boys can probably get stuck in if your opponent if foolish enough to deploy on the line when going second or advance to the line going 1st. personally if p[laying that I would just deploy 30 inches from trukkboyz and call it good. if there is a warboss make that 33 inches. and 11 boyz with nob is nice but it is then out in the wind likely away from other things with mob rule once they lose a few models. I would even be good with a rule that if the vehicle moved the unit inside could disembark and charge but not do its movement beyond the disembark. making that average 22 and making turn 1 charges even if your opponent is on the line unlikely.

 G00fySmiley wrote:


potential and reality are often quite different. lets roll that back to realism here. also you are assuming they have a warboss in a trukk which is unlikely unless it is meganobz and a mega boss

11 boyz w/ nob move 12, get out 3, move 5 then average a 7 inch charge. you are looking at a 27 inch semi reliable charge as you can reroll the charge (has to be both dice) so a trukk load of boys can probably get stuck in if your opponent if foolish enough to deploy on the line when going second or advance to the line going 1st. personally if p[laying that I would just deploy 30 inches from trukkboyz and call it good. if there is a warboss make that 33 inches. and 11 boyz with nob is nice but it is then out in the wind likely away from other things with mob rule once they lose a few models. I would even be good with a rule that if the vehicle moved the unit inside could disembark and charge but not do its movement beyond the disembark. making that average 22 and making turn 1 charges even if your opponent is on the line unlikely.

Alright, I'll conceed that 38 assumes alot of things would go JUST right, but even if things were more average.

12+3+2.5+(we will say 8.5 because I'm too lazy to scratch out the reroll of one die probability and will err on the side of low average) = 26 inches still with reliable probability. Add one more inch to it because you only gotta be within 1 to engage and lose nothing from casualties.

also you are assuming they have a warboss in a trukk which is unlikely unless it is meganobz and a mega boss

I don't think thats such a given anymore. A warboss grants a bubble of waggh and Leaderhsip buffs. Sticking a barebones warboss in one or two of your trukks, and then having two or three more small mobs around then is a perfectly valid way to play. He confers his leadership to the lot, AND allows all of them to waggh move now.

Threat ranges like that being so easy to come by is an absurd though. A trukk would have to be almost 200 imo points to do something like that. As it stands, they are a bit pricey, but still spammable

I think some people are really underrating the value of open topped in this edition. Rhinos lost a lot of utility in this edition when compared to trukks. Does our shooting suck, yup, but without firepoints, moving in a rhino means that marines give up a full turn of firing for their unit as you can no longer hop out and shoot on the same turn, which was always very common. Roll up, jump out, open fire. That is now gone, so every turn a unit spends embarked is a turn it does nothing. Not so for orks, however poor our shooting may be, at least we get to do something.

Also to consider more of our units can now take trukks, burnas used to have no access, now they do. Same with Lootas, they can now sit in the protection of a Trukk and fire out the top, moving when needed to fire at -1 BS if need be.


Being embarked also became less dangerous to orks, and more dangerous to marines. An exploding transport used to do 5 unsaved wounds to a squad of 12 orks, while only doing 1.6 to marines. Now it does 2 to orks and still 1.6 to marines.

@Cover: Kind of sort of
The only things that could reduce the armor of 3+ that it couldn't previously are things that were AP4, now AP -1. This does means a swath of anti-infantry and weak anti tank weapons like heavy bolters and auto cannons can reduce the save and with the Restartus and changes to Necrons you're seeing much more AP -1 than you did AP4.

On the other hand, most of the stuff that would completely ignored 3+ save now still give saves. This is especially with cover. A marine hiding in cover gets a +5 from plasma, which is the same as it usually was in 7th and previous, where as an ork will only receive hot, plasmay death

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
@Cover: Kind of sort of
The only things that could reduce the armor of 3+ that it couldn't previously are things that were AP4, now AP -1. This does means a swath of anti-infantry and weak anti tank weapons like heavy bolters and auto cannons can reduce the save and with the Restartus and changes to Necrons you're seeing much more AP -1 than you did AP4.

On the other hand, most of the stuff that would completely ignored 3+ save now still give saves. This is especially with cover. A marine hiding in cover gets a +5 from plasma, which is the same as it usually was in 7th and previous, where as an ork will only receive hot, plasmay death

Yes but that requires hiding in cover which seems much less common in this edition, no intervening model cover, must be full squad in cover etc. Also you are only looking at shooting, it seems to me that there are a lot more CC weapons with at least -1 than there used to be. Also AP4 stuff tended to be much higher rate of fire than AP3 or less (usually 1 or 2 shots). IF you don't assume cover, orks get their "full" saves against more than they used to, and marines get it less.

Breng77 wrote:


Yes I do, Especially when you consider the cost of the squad, meganobs in a minimum squad run ~50 points cheaper, and if they want a transport run about 400 point cheaper. As for the wounds.

4 attacks will hit twice and like wound twice causing 4 wounds, with a max upside of 8 wounds, 2 attacks will hit once, and wound 1 causing 3 wounds, with a max of 6. Point for point, Meganobs will put out more damage (as a squad) than terminators. 5 Assault termies is 280 (with TH/SS), and will put out 12.5 wounds of damage on average (against T4 or lower), 22.4 points per wound, and they are significantly worse against single or 2 wound models (killing 4 models) and less with 3+ saves or better. 3 Meganobs with kill saws is only 189 points puts out 10 wound on average (against T5 or lower) so 18.9 points per wound. Will kill 5 models with 2 wounds or less. They are also better against T8 or 9 by a lot. 2 Similarly pointed units (4 Meganobs, Vs 5 Termies), Meganobs Kill 2.2termies, Termies kill 2.7 Meganobs. SO it will come down to the charge.

So the fact that one gets a 3++ save means nothing and all that matters is offense? Well how much damage does a dead meganob put out since it is more likely to die than the storm shield terminator?

Maybe the way to get across is the differences in points is to give examples inside of an army rather than comparing two armies so people don't just argue in favor of their favored army.

Why is a storm shield only 1 point more than a combat shield? As far as I can tell the restriction of taking a storm shield with a relic blade is gone, there doesn't appear to be 2 handed weapons that can't be used with a storm shield anymore that I see. Although I may be missing it. Vanguard Veterans seem to be able to take a storm sheild and relic blade together now for example.

And why does a killsaw cost the same for a spanner and a nob?

Or if we must argue army against army, why does a killsaw for a spanner cost more than a thunder hammer for any space marine model?

 davou wrote:
People lamenting burna boys is kinda silly... EVERY single one of us went 'wooooah' when the rules to flamers were previewed and we all immediately thought about how OP burnas were going to be. I'd bet that the playtesters thought (and live though) the same thing. Giving them each a potential of 6 shots would have been CRAZY. heck we even have a meme before anyone played a game of them burning a helldrake out of the sky

To be fair there really isn't a good reason to take burna boys when you can take Kommandos and take burnas for free, infiltrate within 9in and get a +2 cover save for a 4+ save. Take snikrot for even more LoL's since he allows Kommandos to reroll combat hit rolls of 1 where a burna is oddly the best melee weapon a Kommando can get at -2ap in combat.. There is literally no reason to take a burnaboy over a kommando with burna since Kommandos are cheaper.
If you want a d6 burna just take the skorcha trukk it can outflank and is faster and durable and cheap enough to be annoying.

SemperMortis wrote:

The supreme Irony here is that Orks do in fact pay for "Railgun" type weapons the same price that other factions pay. Lets take a look shall we? Space Marines pay 13pts for a Plasma Gun which hits on 3s. Orks pay 9 for that same type of weapon. Not bad, 4pt difference in price right? in 6 turns of shooting a SM will hit 4 times in 6 turns of shooting that ork will hit 2 times. (He will also die by rolling a 1) so those 4pts generate TWICE the number of hits. It gets worse as well, they pay the same price for comparable pistols and the Cannons? Oh my god. Plasma Cannon is 21pts for D3 hits (average 2 shots and 1.6 hits) We pay 23pts for the KMK which is D6 shot at BS2 average 3-4 on a roll which means 1- 1.3hits a turn. so paying more for less across the board. Whoops that feths your argument a bit huh?

Math is 100 rounds of shots for every combination of armor 2+ through 6+ and every T 3 through 12.

A lot of good Ork weapons are assault. The marine weapons are not. I think you'll find the math weighs this out below.

Notice how a moving weapon hovers around the 3.5 mark and a stationary weapon is around the 4.5 mark. The Ork weapons are perfectly in line with expectations.

Kill cannon - 27 points: 3.6 wounds per point 3.6 when moving Kannon (S8) (Grots) - 15 points: 5.3 Zzap gun (no mortal wounds) (Grots) - 18 points: 4.2 Zzap gun (mortal wounds) (Grots) - 18 points: 5.6 (relative value of 8.4 against something with 4++) Koptarokkits - 28 points: 3.3 3.3 when moving Kustom Mega Kannon - 23 points: 8.4 8.4 when moving *This weapon can cause considerable self harm Grav cannon w/ amp - 28 points: 4.5 3.4 when moving Lascannon - 25 points: 5.4 4.1 when moving Heavy Bolter - 10 points: 4.9 3.7 when moving

So the fact that one gets a 3++ save means nothing and all that matters is offense? Well how much damage does a dead meganob put out since it is more likely to die than the storm shield terminator?

Maybe the way to get across is the differences in points is to give examples inside of an army rather than comparing two armies so people don't just argue in favor of their favored army.

Why is a storm shield only 1 point more than a combat shield? As far as I can tell the restriction of taking a storm shield with a relic blade is gone, there doesn't appear to be 2 handed weapons that can't be used with a storm shield anymore that I see. Although I may be missing it. Vanguard Veterans seem to be able to take a storm sheild and relic blade together now for example.

And why does a killsaw cost the same for a spanner and a nob?

Or if we must argue army against army, why does a killsaw for a spanner cost more than a thunder hammer for any space marine model?

For storm shield vs combat shield, that seems to be silly but I don't know which units can take each. But combat shields have been garbage forever.

As for the 3++ sure it matters, but not a whole lot more than an additional wound, and the army composition also matters like I said, it is much cheaper to move your Meganobs around the table than it is to move your terminators (terminators have initial deepstrike, but after that are walking unless paying through the nose for a landraider). As for how likely they are to die, meganobs are less likely to die than terminators to all the most common weapons in the game, anything AP -1 or lower is more effective against a SS terminator than against a meganob, Anything at -2 that does a single wound is identical against the terminators and meganobs (takes 6 wounds to kill a terminator to get 2 wounds through a 3+, and 6 wounds against a Meganob to get 3 wounds through a 4+.) Against D3 or 2 wound -2 Meganobs are better as wounds tend to get wasted, Against 1 damage -3 and 4 it still takes 6 wounds to kill a terminator vs 4.5 for the MANZ (-3) and 3.6 for MANZ. So Terminators are more likely to die to all small arms fire, but more durable against AP-3 and 4, especially if it does D6 wounds (2 or D3 is close for AP-3, as every wound going through likely kills a terminator.)

I think MANZ are actually a poor choice this edition not because they are not durable or super killy with combi skrochas.

They are slow as FEK. Moving 4in and you cant advance without a warboss within 6in and even with that you are likely only able to roll just enough to move as fast you we did last edition. And added to the fact nearly every other Army is moving 6in or MORE base. I use to take manz in trukks as a man missle who would bum rush a target like an imperial knight. which is what they should still be fighting. If I attempt to chase down an imperial knight with 12 in movement vs my 4in I will never be in charge range unless the imperial knight player wants me to charge him and at best the knight player will get the charge and kill the 3x mega nobs before they have a chance to atk.

There is so many better options now to take on those durable targets then manz, Tankbustas in trukks are the stars of the ork codex, stormboys are also amazing. Kommandos with burnas are great units as well. Warbikers should also be great as well as characters on bikes.

Just crunched some numbers comparing a trukk full of burnas to a land speeder storm full of scouts with shotguns.

Scouts and speeder is 157, burnas and trukk are 250 (i.e. 59% more expensive than the marines).

The LSS is obviously faster.

With a heavy flamer on the land speeder and the shotguns within half range, the scouts throw out about 70% of the burna boys firepower.

The trukk is about 50% more durable than the speeder.
The 12 burna boys are roughly 50% more durable than five scouts too.

In close combat, the orks are unsurprisingly far superior, each burna averaging half a wound or so on most infantry, while the scouts only do one third of one each. The speeder itself is oddly competent in close combat, but with only two attacks it isn't enough to shift the balance (things would be much closer if they scouts had an equal points value of infantry).

Overall, that doesn't seem too bad for the orks. The relative manoeuvrability and concentrating their points into fewer units is bad for area control, but in a stand up fight they are only at a small disadvantage with shooting and should find it fairly straightforward to get into close combat with only moderate casualties, at which point they have the upper hand.

However, I'm far from convinced that an army of scouts in land speeders is the best possible build for marines, so this is probably comparing one of the orks' stronger combinations with a fairly poor choice from the marine list.

Incidentally, I ran the numbers on the trukk against a variety of heavy weapons. The average improvement was 172% more shots needed to destroy it. This seems very close to the 173% increase in it's cost. However, simply being n% tougher doesn't make you worth n% more points. My intuition is that a fair cost is probably closer to the square root of your durability, since two trukks would be better than one trukk which took twice as long to kill, being able to carry twice as many models, move to twice as many objectives, tie up twice as many shooting units with an assault and so on while still needing the same number of shots to destroy.

I think that a fair price for a trukk with the durability of the new one and the speed of the new one would be around ((2.72^0.5)*30) or roughly 50 points. Given that the new trukk is about 20% slower and not able to move before disembarking troops any more, I'd knock another 10% or so off it. In short, the new trukk seems to be nearly twice the price my best math-hammer says it should be. (The rhino, by comparison is only about 25% more than my numbers say is right). This assumes that the old trukk wasn't horribly under-costed of course, but given that orks don't really have much of a reputation as tournament winners I'm going to say it probably wasn't.

Before anyone says I can't compare the value of old and new points, let me just say that I absolutely can because most infantry units are still very close to their old cost and still work in a very similar fashion.

gungo wrote:
I think MANZ are actually a poor choice this edition not because they are not durable or super killy with combi skrochas.

They are slow as FEK. Moving 4in and you cant advance without a warboss within 6in and even with that you are likely only able to roll just enough to move as fast you we did last edition. And added to the fact nearly every other Army is moving 6in or MORE base. I use to take manz in trukks as a man missle who would bum rush a target like an imperial knight. which is what they should still be fighting. If I attempt to chase down an imperial knight with 12 in movement vs my 4in I will never be in charge range unless the imperial knight player wants me to charge him and at best the knight player will get the charge and kill the 3x mega nobs before they have a chance to atk.

There is so many better options now to take on those durable targets then manz, Tankbustas in trukks are the stars of the ork codex, stormboys are also amazing. Kommandos with burnas are great units as well. Warbikers should also be great as well as characters on bikes.

Not sure yet, Weirdboyz could help by placing them in charge (albeit above average of 8") range. Will be tougher to take down knights as now they cannot be locked in combat, but I don't think MANZ are the best choice for that as he negates their wounds. I think slower vehicles will be a good target for them, or small durable units, as you can charge your trukk in and then jump out next turn to kill off the unit that was locked with your Trukk (most units cannot get far enough away to not get caught in this case).