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In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model.

Actually its just mentioning "the" range "of" the weapon being used...not "from" the weapon being used. So LOS is checked from the Hull and measured from the Hull.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:
Yeah, and how many times could you actually shoot BOTH sponsons without Split-Fire or PotMS? Not that often. But you were paying for the possibility anyways.

Plenty of times. I mean, Land Raider sponsons even have a pretty big overlap arc in the middle compared to LRBT sponsons. The only restriction was that you had to come out from behind cover and point your tank straight at the target, potentially making it more vulnerable to return fire. Now you just poke one tiny corner out from behind a solid wall and get to fire all of your guns, and there's no more tradeoff between defense and offense.

What he said, visualized

I'm not going to play 8th. No templates dumb downed rules. No Firing arcs No thanks. F GW this was the last straw.

 ForceChoke wrote:


I'm not going to play 8th. No templates dumb downed rules. No Firing arcs No thanks. F GW this was the last straw.

K. Don't let the door hit ya and so forth.

 zedsdead wrote:

In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model.

Actually its just mentioning "the" range "of" the weapon being used...not "from" the weapon being used. So LOS is checked from the Hull and measured from the Hull.

Yup. Whatever hull ultimately means. Sadly :(

 ForceChoke wrote:
I'm not going to play 8th. No templates dumb downed rules. No Firing arcs No thanks. F GW this was the last straw.

And here we see the kneejerker. You haven't even tried it, but you're willing to throw away everything you've done so far because of what some people say on the internet. C'est la vie.

 ForceChoke wrote:
I'm not going to play 8th. No templates dumb downed rules. No Firing arcs No thanks. F GW this was the last straw.

Nah, that's not good enough. After Age of Sigmar's release I simply can't take anyone seriously if they don't make a YouTube video of themselves setting their army on fire.

Quit like you mean it. No balls.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:
I'm not going to play 8th. No templates dumb downed rules. No Firing arcs No thanks. F GW this was the last straw.

Nah, that's not good enough. After Age of Sigmar's release I simply can't take anyone seriously if they don't make a YouTube video of themselves setting their army on fire.

Quit like you mean it. No balls.

Not even that, the idiot who burnt his army plays stormcasts now.

But yeah, let him go. If it's not his cup of tea, fine by us: we don't care.

 ForceChoke wrote:
I'm not going to play 8th. No templates dumb downed rules. No Firing arcs No thanks. F GW this was the last straw.

 ForceChoke wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:
Yeah, and how many times could you actually shoot BOTH sponsons without Split-Fire or PotMS? Not that often. But you were paying for the possibility anyways.

Plenty of times. I mean, Land Raider sponsons even have a pretty big overlap arc in the middle compared to LRBT sponsons. The only restriction was that you had to come out from behind cover and point your tank straight at the target, potentially making it more vulnerable to return fire. Now you just poke one tiny corner out from behind a solid wall and get to fire all of your guns, and there's no more tradeoff between defense and offense.

What he said, visualized

I'm not going to play 8th. No templates dumb downed rules. No Firing arcs No thanks. F GW this was the last straw.

What army do you play, and can I have it (or buy it)?

Personally, I'm liking the idea of no templates - they were such a hassle to deal with, and was always possible to cause arguments about "is this model under or not"; plus, scattering was obnoxious and added a lot of time.

That said, I think the weapons that used to be AOE may have been undertuned; we'll see what happens in the future.

I will miss the flamer template though, that was always fun to use.

 Lance845 wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:


I'm not going to play 8th. No templates dumb downed rules. No Firing arcs No thanks. F GW this was the last straw.

K. Don't let the door hit ya and so forth.

I am sorry, My intention was only to solve the issues we are presented with:(

I have not seen the rules for forts yet. Do they work the same as Vehicles? So would my Bastion be able to shoot all Heavy Bolters at a target in front of it ?

 zedsdead wrote:
I have not seen the rules for forts yet. Do they work the same as Vehicles? So would my Bastion be able to shoot all Heavy Bolters at a target in front of it ?

The datasheet says "...Each of its weapons can only target the nearest visible enemy. ..." The rest of the paragraph has nothing to do with targeting.

fe40k wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:
Yeah, and how many times could you actually shoot BOTH sponsons without Split-Fire or PotMS? Not that often. But you were paying for the possibility anyways.

Plenty of times. I mean, Land Raider sponsons even have a pretty big overlap arc in the middle compared to LRBT sponsons. The only restriction was that you had to come out from behind cover and point your tank straight at the target, potentially making it more vulnerable to return fire. Now you just poke one tiny corner out from behind a solid wall and get to fire all of your guns, and there's no more tradeoff between defense and offense.

What he said, visualized

I'm not going to play 8th. No templates dumb downed rules. No Firing arcs No thanks. F GW this was the last straw.

What army do you play, and can I have it (or buy it)?

Personally, I'm liking the idea of no templates - they were such a hassle to deal with, and was always possible to cause arguments about "is this model under or not"; plus, scattering was obnoxious and added a lot of time.

That said, I think the weapons that used to be AOE may have been undertuned; we'll see what happens in the future.

I will miss the flamer template though, that was always fun to use.

Just going to play 5th and 7th. Might play a heavy modded version of 8th.

House rules are a thing, you know. I bet a lot of folk at least do the following:

1 - line of sight from the gun on all models (not just range)

2 - antennas, etc don't count for targeting.

That's it. No need to storm out because your house rules aren't official.

Also, you'd rather play a wildly unbalanced game like 7th? What army do you play, I wonder.

Never forget the Banerock:

 JimOnMars wrote:
House rules are a thing, you know.

That doesn't really solve anything. You can house rule any rule in the game to do anything or cover anything, so saying "Just house rule it!" doesn't fix any problems.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Exalted for firing clueless rules designers. Between the aforementioned issues mentioned, alongside flamethrowers doubling as anti-aircraft guns, saying "It's an abstraction" is a hamfisted defense.

You know what game did abstraction? Epic. And Epic didn't have rule mishaps this glaring. Units had an AP and an AT attack value and a save, with a core rule forcing -1 save penalties for flanking and setting up crossfires.

Personally, I'm refusing to play 8th unless several house rule become standard, and the most pressing one IMO is: Measure LOS from the weapon, unless the attacking unit is entirely composed of models with the Infantry keyword.

It's a simple rule, it encourages very basic elementary tactics (fields of fire, flanking to deny overwatch, etc), and gives a unique advantage to Infantry in that they're the only unit in the game with 360* LOS.

Door let the door hit you. Meanwhile, My stormraven will take its chances vs flamethrowers.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Personally, I'm refusing to play 8th unless several house rule become standard

Well guys, better do as he says, we can't do this without him.

I also feel like my flamers are better used vs the various hordes or infantry I'm up against.

Martel732 wrote:
I also feel like my flamers are better used vs the various hordes or infantry I'm up against.

8" D6 hits wounding on 5+ isn't exactly optimal for taking out flyers, or any other type of vehicle for that matter. Especially if you have basically any anti-armor weapons in your list at all. Just because you can do it, doesn't make it a good idea, or one that any but the most foolhardy will sincerely attempt. I too will be using my flamers to melt some infantry faces off.

Autocannons are pretty good at making a mess of most flyers. Which was the original purpose of the German 88mm gun, btw. So, it's almost like weapons were redesigned to have tasks that make sense.

So riddle me this, is hitting flyer with a flamerthrower (probably effectually) a bigger flaw, or direct hits from massive railguns or demolisher shells causing one wound to MCs a bigger design flaw?


I was just at the Ohio museum of natural history looking at a Trex skeleton a few weeks ago.I can guarantee you the number of M-1 120mm rounds it would take to kill a Trex would be one.

Martel732 wrote:
Autocannons are pretty good at making a mess of most flyers. Which was the original purpose of the German 88mm gun, btw. So, it's almost like weapons were redesigned to have tasks that make sense.

Imagine that! But they can be sub-optimally used in other applications, which means there is no depth and the game is dumbed down...

How can you get dumber than scatterlaser kills world?

Martel732 wrote:
How can you get dumber than scatterlaser kills world?

But you see, that wasn't Gee Dubs' fault, it was the players'. They weren't supposed to break the rules like that.

But anything that comes up in 8th is GW's fault.

Fire arcs never slowed down the game. And now that everything can split fire, sponson weapons would have an easier time finding a target with their limited fire arc, except that they got rid of fire arcs. It just weird.

Well, as others have mentioned this is easily fixed would a couple of simple house rules. 1) Trace LOS from the gun barrel 2) Antennas don't count.

GorillaWarfare wrote:
Fire arcs never slowed down the game. And now that everything can split fire, sponson weapons would have an easier time finding a target with their limited fire arc, except that they got rid of fire arcs. It just weird.

Well, as others have mentioned this is easily fixed would a couple of simple house rules. 1) Trace LOS from the gun barrel 2) Antennas don't count.

So you want to look someone in the face and say "Hey, that 200+ point predator you haven't used since 4th but is suddenly good again? Yeah, it has to be doggak overpriced now becaise mah immersion! In fact, just don't take vehicles because I don't want to play against them unless they're worse than every other unit in the game for no reason!"

 JimOnMars wrote:
House rules are a thing, you know. I bet a lot of folk at least do the following:

1 - line of sight from the gun on all models (not just range)

2 - antennas, etc don't count for targeting.

That's it. No need to storm out because your house rules aren't official.

Also, you'd rather play a wildly unbalanced game like 7th? What army do you play, I wonder.

I love how "what army do you play" has become the standard counter-argument to not wanting to play AOS-40k. "You're just a cheesing Tau or Eldar player, neener-neener" as though it magically validates Vendettas...I'm sorry, those are no longer legal, I mean Heldrakes being able to shoot out their ass again, alongside every other Vindicator, etc.

If 7th was a game with exploits you can drive a Bike across, 8th is the game with gaping holes so wide you could drive a Baneblade through them...or at least you could if Tank Shock were a thing, a single Grot poking a Land Raider wasn't able to stop it from shooting, and a heavy enough flamethrower can be better anti-aircraft than actual anti-aircraft guns.

ERJAK wrote:

GorillaWarfare wrote:
Fire arcs never slowed down the game. And now that everything can split fire, sponson weapons would have an easier time finding a target with their limited fire arc, except that they got rid of fire arcs. It just weird.

Well, as others have mentioned this is easily fixed would a couple of simple house rules. 1) Trace LOS from the gun barrel 2) Antennas don't count.

So you want to look someone in the face and say "Hey, that 200+ point predator you haven't used since 4th but is suddenly good again? Yeah, it has to be doggak overpriced now becaise mah immersion! In fact, just don't take vehicles because I don't want to play against them unless they're worse than every other unit in the game for no reason!"

I think immersion is one of the most important things in a game as thematic as 40k. Also, I don't think these rules would make vehicles under powered. They will still be putting out much more fire power than ever before, and for the most part you'll be able to fire all your weapons at the same target. I don't think you should be able to fire all your weapons from a single point on a vehicle.

GorillaWarfare wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

GorillaWarfare wrote:
Fire arcs never slowed down the game. And now that everything can split fire, sponson weapons would have an easier time finding a target with their limited fire arc, except that they got rid of fire arcs. It just weird.

Well, as others have mentioned this is easily fixed would a couple of simple house rules. 1) Trace LOS from the gun barrel 2) Antennas don't count.

So you want to look someone in the face and say "Hey, that 200+ point predator you haven't used since 4th but is suddenly good again? Yeah, it has to be doggak overpriced now becaise mah immersion! In fact, just don't take vehicles because I don't want to play against them unless they're worse than every other unit in the game for no reason!"

I think immersion is one of the most important things in a game as thematic as 40k. Also, I don't think these rules would make vehicles under powered. They will still be putting out much more fire power than ever before, and for the most part you'll be able to fire all your weapons at the same target. I don't think you should be able to fire all your weapons from a single point on a vehicle.

The more of the rulebook I read, the less immersed I feel. From my understanding, they brought back the silliness of being able to kill a whole squad even if only 1 model is in range and los.

I'm someone who stopped playing because I think 40k's rules have become dense garbage - I started playing in 5th and even then they were, imo, a giant hot mess, one which has only gotten worse over time. I'm guessing at some prior point in time, the rules were OK but they kept adding more and more stuff onto them to support flyers, and superheavies, and monsters, and so on. Eventually I stopped playing because the rules were so poor - I still collect and sometimes paint the models but I have not put a model down on a table for a game in at least 5 or 6 years.

Anyway, the only reason I'm interested in 40K now is because the rules are way simplified, something that I have wanted them to do since the first time I picked up the rulebook. And even then, I think the change to LOS is maybe going too far. The idea that someone standing to the 3'o clock position of a tank with sponsons is not in LOS to the sponson on the 9'o clock side wasn't a complex idea, in fact I think that was one of the most obvious and straightforward ideas about the game.

I can get on board with the idea that the shooting phase is just an abstraction of what happens in the battle and it's not really "real-time" but this seems like an oversimplification to me.

 Ouze wrote:
I'm someone who stopped playing because I think 40k's rules have become dense garbage - I started playing in 5th and even then they were, imo, a giant hot mess, one which has only gotten worse over time. I'm guessing at some prior point in time, the rules were OK but they kept adding more and more stuff onto them to support flyers, and superheavies, and monsters, and so on. Eventually I stopped playing because the rules were so poor - I still collect and sometimes paint the models but I have not put a model down on a table for a game in at least 5 or 6 years.

Anyway, the only reason I'm interested in 40K now is because the rules are way simplified, something that I have wanted them to do since the first time I picked up the rulebook. And even then, I think the change to LOS is maybe going too far. The idea that someone standing to the 3'o clock position of a tank with sponsons is not in LOS to the sponson on the 9'o clock side wasn't a complex idea, in fact I think that was one of the most obvious and straightforward ideas about the game.

I can get on board with the idea that the shooting phase is just an abstraction of what happens in the battle and it's not really "real-time" but this seems like an oversimplification to me.

It's not that it was complex or unintuitive, it just made vehicles gakkier than other units just based on how they were shaped. For example, an Exorcist is dramatically better than an an all-las predator despite their relative damage output being fairly similar and the exorcist being about as reliable as Comcast Cable, because the exorcist A) Only has 1 weapon to shoot, which means it can move freely, B) Has a huge tall turret that can see over cover allowing it to be 100% obscured and still fire and C) Doesn't have to deal with firing sponson weapons.

If this were a historical game where everything was shaped pretty much exactly like a leman russ vehicle facings would be fine, but with tanks shaped like croissants and giant spiders and giant mechs, it does more harm than good.