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From news and rumors thread:

Warhams-77 wrote:
Dark Imperium Death Guard models - size comparison

By Atia https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/2145

Spoiler:

Updated my post with more pics

And as I said there, this is good news for the FW upgrade PMs as I think these will look great mixed in.

My current plan is using the PMs from the starter set as the champions for my previous 3 PM squads.

Size comparisons are interesting...they're not that much bigger, just...bulkier. My own personal plan is to convert the DI Plague Marines into a Chosen Squad/SWA Kill Team since I already have 4 squads of 7 FW Plague Marine kits - no desire to mix it up that much.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Size comparisons are interesting...they're not that much bigger, just...bulkier. My own personal plan is to convert the DI Plague Marines into a Chosen Squad/SWA Kill Team since I already have 4 squads of 7 FW Plague Marine kits - no desire to mix it up that much.

I was thinking a chosen squad when I first saw them, but I will wait to see the DG codex before executing that plan.

and bulkier makes sense given that the DG ahs ALWAYS been depicted as being "fattened by disease!"

Yeah, I think it will be tough to use the FW kits in mixed squads with the new ones. Not because of any problem with the new ones, it's just the old chaos sprue is really showing it's age as a base...

If I understand the Disgustingly Resilient rule correctly, it is a definite downgrade from the classic FnP of past editions. DR rolls must be made for each wound you suffer, so if you take 3 damage from a lascannon on your plague marine, that plague marine must succeed in 3 DR rolls. Making 2 DR rolls is 10%, making 3 is considerably less.

Now on one hand, this kind of makes sense. A lascannon is a freakin anti-tank weapon after all. It means DR is something only meant to help you against small arms fire. But, I think too many points are paid for this ability. Combined with that fact that T5 is less 'tough', and that plague marines no longer have bolt pistols, we have a unit that is average, maybe slightly below average.

You are correct. but we are also paying pounts for the fact that it can also ignore mortal wounds.

GorillaWarfare wrote:
If I understand the Disgustingly Resilient rule correctly, it is a definite downgrade from the classic FnP of past editions. DR rolls must be made for each wound you suffer, so if you take 3 damage from a lascannon on your plague marine, that plague marine must succeed in 3 DR rolls. Making 2 DR rolls is 10%, making 3 is considerably less.

Now on one hand, this kind of makes sense. A lascannon is a freakin anti-tank weapon after all. It means DR is something only meant to help you against small arms fire. But, I think too many points are paid for this ability. Combined with that fact that T5 is less 'tough', and that plague marines no longer have bolt pistols, we have a unit that is average, maybe slightly below average.

It's...odd.

We're rolling for each wound suffered HOWEVER it cannot be negated. Not by double strength, not by any instant death equivalent, not even by Mortal Wounds which are going to have one hell of an impact I think in the long term.

A lot hinges on the forthcoming supplement/Codex/random WD article/Who the Hell knows we're supposedly due to get. If the army bonuses are an increased DR save or DR across the board then Death Guard will be crazily resilient compared to other armies.

Hoping personally that the bonuses are Detachment specific rather than entire Army - more like the AdMech canticles (since iirc AoS doesn't have detachments per se) - as DR then offers us some interesting interactions with Fabius Bile.

Yeah, FNP and equivalents are actually the "ultimate" save of 40k. They are always usable and are a layer of save on top of your normal layer. MUCH more usefull than invulnerable saves.

Well, to an extent. Having to roll for each damage does mean multi damage weapons are much more likely to bypass it. For death guard and plague marines who had T 5, a lot of things that couldn't get through our FNP last edition will likely have an easier time. I'm thinking things like battlecannons, powerfists, or even lascannons. So I'd call it a sidegrade at best for most of our units, though T 3/4 poxwalkers benefit a fair amount.

I would call it an upgrade as it now bypasses instant death damage. However, weapons have gotten stronger and can now do multi damage attacks. It does make sense; a las cannon or autocannon would blow someone up. The fact we even get a chance to block the damage is better than most.
It's interesting seeing the different opinions on whether the army is worth its points or not. I heard a rumour that we will be the first codex and model release after launch, Primaris second. If that's true, we'll be able to see our army wide special abilities pretty soon, get to see our glorious angel, Mortarion, and also get to see what the rest of our army roster will be and if it makes up for the things we're currently lacking in

SilverAlien wrote:
Well, to an extent. Having to roll for each damage does mean multi damage weapons are much more likely to bypass it. For death guard and plague marines who had T 5, a lot of things that couldn't get through our FNP last edition will likely have an easier time. I'm thinking things like battlecannons, powerfists, or even lascannons. So I'd call it a sidegrade at best for most of our units, though T 3/4 poxwalkers benefit a fair amount.

If people are using lascannons against PMs, poxwalkers, or any infantry for that matter, that is awesome. because they are a bad player.
Please waste those lascannon shots killing a few PMs, means my Spartan is free to dominate. Or is already dead :(

Fun fact you can take a lord on a Palanquin of Nurgle in a deathguard army but not a Sorcerer on Palanquin seems odd though what's more surprising is that they are actual units when there is no models for them

Quite disappointing the lack of stuff Death Guard can take though I'll probably just take a plaguecaster with plague marines, possessed and Helbrutes until we get more death guard stuff.

I was planning a Dark Apostle on Palanquin to lead my poxwalker/cultist hordes, but apparently nobody can take those anymore

Charax wrote:
I was planning a Dark Apostle on Palanquin to lead my poxwalker/cultist hordes, but apparently nobody can take those anymore

Anymore? You never could to begin with, Dark Apostles listing for Chaos Rewards in 6th was: May take items from Chaos Rewards (except daemonic steeds).

Chaos Lord on Palaquin still works, same with Sorcerer.

nuts, that was gonna be such a cool idea.

Oh well, he can go back to being a sorceror then

 Rippy wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Well, to an extent. Having to roll for each damage does mean multi damage weapons are much more likely to bypass it. For death guard and plague marines who had T 5, a lot of things that couldn't get through our FNP last edition will likely have an easier time. I'm thinking things like battlecannons, powerfists, or even lascannons. So I'd call it a sidegrade at best for most of our units, though T 3/4 poxwalkers benefit a fair amount.

If people are using lascannons against PMs, poxwalkers, or any infantry for that matter, that is awesome. because they are a bad player.
Please waste those lascannon shots killing a few PMs, means my Spartan is free to dominate. Or is already dead :(

It's funny you say that. A heavy weapon team with a lascannon costs a whopping three points more than a bare bones plague marine. So unless you run your PM squad bare, similar price point. It'll also wipe the PM off the table before they get anywhere close. Unless you buy a rhino, which is another three lascannons (for a grand total of eight lascannons for your five PM in a rhino. If you took them without upgrades, seven).

Lascannons are a totally point effective way to kill PM. That is a good indicator of how overpriced PMs are if I ever saw one.

Wounds don't carry over, so you are wasting lascannon shots taking out PMs, but I get your point

 Rippy wrote:
Wounds don't carry over, so you are wasting lascannon shots taking out PMs, but I get your point

I mean, wounds not carrying over isn't a huge deal. It's a low risk way to kill models worth the same point value in a time efficient (should be 2-3 shooting phases) manner. The fact the lascannons earn their points back firing at single wound models is kinda the point, they shouldn't be able to so something has gone wrong.

I think it is pretty clear we got new models just to encourage people to play DG for the new campaign, that way chaos will get stomped due to having a high number of worthless armies on the field. Maybe after the campaign we will get a full codex which allows DG to be viable, just cross your fingers the codex doesn't come before the campaign.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Wounds don't carry over, so you are wasting lascannon shots taking out PMs, but I get your point

I mean, wounds not carrying over isn't a huge deal. It's a low risk way to kill models worth the same point value in a time efficient (should be 2-3 shooting phases) manner. The fact the lascannons earn their points back firing at single wound models is kinda the point, they shouldn't be able to so something has gone wrong.

I think it is pretty clear we got new models just to encourage people to play DG for the new campaign, that way chaos will get stomped due to having a high number of worthless armies on the field. Maybe after the campaign we will get a full codex which allows DG to be viable, just cross your fingers the codex doesn't come before the campaign.

if you're firing lascannons at infantry something has gone wrong, eaither your opponent didn't take any vehicles, didn't take eneugh vehicles or you took too much heavy ordinance. sure a heavy weapons team with a lascannon might be alright vs an elite unit but it means you can't put out a volume of shots nesscary to take down the hordes.

Pix walkers strike me as a board control/middle of the board unit rather than a dedicated assault or damage dealing unit. Their purpose is to just sit there and survive. Plague marines weaponary also seems to support this area of the board. Having terminators deep strike in after a turn or two instead of walking the board while your plague marines advance on turn 1 to get into range before laying down a good amount of fire power. I think their biggest limitation is that they are limited to twenty models.

Death guard are meant to be sturdy and so it will really be down to how the rules pan out with rules being conferred to factions as well as what we get access to in the codex.

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

SilverAlien wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Wounds don't carry over, so you are wasting lascannon shots taking out PMs, but I get your point

I mean, wounds not carrying over isn't a huge deal. It's a low risk way to kill models worth the same point value in a time efficient (should be 2-3 shooting phases) manner. The fact the lascannons earn their points back firing at single wound models is kinda the point, they shouldn't be able to so something has gone wrong.

I think it is pretty clear we got new models just to encourage people to play DG for the new campaign, that way chaos will get stomped due to having a high number of worthless armies on the field. Maybe after the campaign we will get a full codex which allows DG to be viable, just cross your fingers the codex doesn't come before the campaign.

if you're firing lascannons at infantry something has gone wrong, eaither your opponent didn't take any vehicles, didn't take eneugh vehicles or you took too much heavy ordinance. sure a heavy weapons team with a lascannon might be alright vs an elite unit but it means you can't put out a volume of shots nesscary to take down the hordes.

Still not seeing where they are so bad? They have a different role to units like hormagaunts, cultists, etc. they don't need to be babysat, they are more durable to the point where it is really a waste to go after them.

However I have not played desthguard on the table yet so will have to see. They definately have shortcomings right now so I am going to hold off on equipping models until we get the codex.

You are also implying that the lascannon dudes are getting attacked back.
I will be very surprised to see anyone using lascannons on single wound models unless they are the only target in range

 Leth wrote:
Still not seeing where they are so bad? They have a different role to units like hormagaunts, cultists, etc. they don't need to be babysat, they are more durable to the point where it is really a waste to go after them.

Because i don't see a role for them. I keep using the guardsman comparison, so let's try something different. Take termagaunts. Termagaunts are more resilient the poxwalkers as a unit (because again 4 points vs 6) against everything that doesn't have an AP value, and the same rough toughness against anything with an AP value (heavy bolter is almost the exact same for example). The poxwalkers are also slower, have no ranged weapon, and only moderately more lethal in close combat if you manage to get 10+ there.

 Rippy wrote:
You are also implying that the lascannon dudes are getting attacked back.
I will be very surprised to see anyone using lascannons on single wound models unless they are the only target in range

Okay lemme try and be more clear. If you were to tailor a list, lascannons would be a totally viable and points efficient way of killing PM. Heavy weapon teams with lascannons could easily make their points back before half the game has passed, just killing PM. That shouldn't be a thing. The fact it is a thing illustrates the fact PM are hugely overpriced.

I mean, lets be clear here, PM are excpetionall unlikely to ever kill something that osts as much as they do. They will statistically die before killing any other equivalently priced unit I've thought to toss them against (outside of shooting something that literally has almost no offensive power, like a rhino). They will almost never make the points back.

Shooting lascannons at PM is a better idea than fielding PM in the first place. That's what is so very sad.

I actually feel bad for ragging on the bloated blight drone as bad as I did early on, running actual comparisons for poxwalkers/PM made me realize it's comparatively amazing. I mean, flamer raptors or crisis suits could arguably do the same job more effectively for less points, but at least the drone is comparatively more resilient than either unit. So yeah, go drone, at least you aren't totally inferior to your competitors.

Okay I get your point now, and it's a fair comment.

If they are over priced, at least we only have to wait a year for that to be changed (if people are loud enough about it) rather than years!

PM are just to much overpriced for their resistance and firepower.

Firepower on 8th was increased in power. Now a lot of weapons cause several wounds, making PM and the nerfed feel no pain less effective

And yes, even if now the FNP can be used always, on 7th only S10 attacks ignored the fnp on PM...and is not an usual weapon.
Also now they must save for each damage. So a laser canon surelly will kill him meanwhile on 7th was hared.

Also, 5T is way less usefull as on 7th.



It6 is very sad, but looks more effective use chosen with plasmas than PM.


IF they had 2 wounds...well, then the situation will be different

T5 is stronger against S7+ than before but weaker against S3, I wouldn't say it's worse.
FNP is a bit worse, but I think it's okay if dedicated heavy weapons bring down our supersoldierzombies. Also it's never ignored like before, where psykers and everything with instant death tore though pms like through CSM.
The biggest loss of plague marines is the humble blight grenade and bolt pistol, which makes us much weaker in CC now. We gained firepower though in the form of plasma guns for our champions. And we are cheaper.

But the problem is not just that PM are still overpriced for what they can do and kill (beside all what they lost: grenades, gun, poison knife and fearless). Nurgle armies (as well rest of Gods armies) lost a lot with the marks gone.

No more option to T6 bikes, or T5 obliterators (well now the oblis are gak in any case hahaha), T6 spans, etc...

With nerf that are common to all armies (like no legions/chapters or more expensive vehicles), us losing the marks is a HUUUUGE thing. That is not a minor stuff. First because the play them gives as well the personality you can give to the army. Also they were always there. And that we pay for them, is not like they were free (in some units they were kinda expensive actually XD).

The lost of the marks and the lost of legions make us looks like a marine-1. Now marines can add their improved cultists (guardsman), their improved obliterators (centurion), they improved PM (primaris marines), improved possessed (wulfen)...

And not happy with that, DG can't take all the chaos units hahaha. Looks they are so brokenly op xD

Franarok wrote:
But the problem is not just that PM are still overpriced for what they can do and kill (beside all what they lost: grenades, gun, poison knife and fearless). Nurgle armies (as well rest of Gods armies) lost a lot with the marks gone.

No more option to T6 bikes, or T5 obliterators (well now the oblis are gak in any case hahaha), T6 spans, etc...

With nerf that are common to all armies (like no legions/chapters or more expensive vehicles), us losing the marks is a HUUUUGE thing. That is not a minor stuff. First because the play them gives as well the personality you can give to the army. Also they were always there. And that we pay for them, is not like they were free (in some units they were kinda expensive actually XD).

The lost of the marks and the lost of legions make us looks like a marine-1. Now marines can add their improved cultists (guardsman), their improved obliterators (centurion), they improved PM (primaris marines), improved possessed (wulfen)...

And not happy with that, DG can't take all the chaos units hahaha. Looks they are so brokenly op xD

And I thought I was being negative about the new DG rules.

Honestly, I'm less concerned about power levels, and more concerns about the implications to army choices. Stuff like blight grenades were cool and effective, and some of those losses suck on both levels.

One thing I'd like to hear from the mathhammer folks is how poxwalkers compare to plague bearers. I'm curious if one looks clearly better than the other in the context of being part of a Death Guard army.