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I'm a little worried about the new reanimation protocols on necron units. Their warriors are now 12pts, Move 5, BS 3+, S4, T4 LD10 and save 4+. Compared with a 13pt tactical marine they seem vastly superior. Their gauss weapons even have a bonus -1 armour pen, and they replenish downed squad members on a 5+ (or a 4+ with a cryptek, which seems like a no-brainer).

Don't get me wrong, I like the new RP rules, and it feels just like necrons should, but for 12pts per warrior it seems pretty crazily strong! I guess their damage output is pretty small, but still superior to tac marines.

If a 20 strong warrior squad is fighting against 20 tac marines at 24 inch range, the tacs will likely NEVER kill the necrons, even if the warriors don't even bother firing their guns... The math says their numbers stabilise around 10 models! I guess you'd have to use your entire army to focus down one squad at a time, but this isn't always possible while the enemy is cutting you down.

I suspect necrons are going to be very strong this edition! I dread to think how hard it'd be to finish off lychguard units. Imagine the pain when you finally reduce a squad to one model, then three more multi-wound models get back up again!

I personally disagree with warriors being BS 3+ and WS 3+ considering they weren't professional soldiers, nor do their bodies perceive surroundings that well, let alone compared to a couple of hundred year old super soldier, but hey ho.

From what I've read, not having the indices myself, the plan for clearing out necron warriors is to focus a unit down one at a time, as their RP can't trigger if the unit is destroyed. This means that yeah, a tactical squad by itself will likely not beat the warriors, but if you destroy the unit entirely using support from the rest of your army (hopefully not requiring an army to kill off a unit) it robs them of their primary strength.
I really hope that it triggers after battleshock, otherwise morale effects helping in wiping out the unit to deny RP will be a rare event

That seems extremely overpowered. You pay less for a unit that is slightly slower, tougher and better at killing things (even when you count in the free/discounted weapons tacticals get). You could say that marines get chapter tactics, but we have no reason to believe necrons won't get those too. And yes, morale triggers first.

Focus firing to trigger catastrophic morale tests seems like the way to go against Warriors. Or you know do what has always worked against Necrons, fight them in close combat.

Well, keep in mind they have no special weapons and a worse armour save, so you're more likely to wipe out the unit and deny their survivability boost than you are for marines.

Necron get <Dynasty>, can't say I know if anything interacts with it at the moment.

CovenantGuardian wrote:
Focus firing to trigger catastrophic morale tests seems like the way to go against Warriors. Or you know do what has always worked against Necrons, fight them in close combat.

Our CC has been given a huge buff, now that if we get the charge off, we can strike first. Warscythe lychguard and big blobs of flayed ones are looking good, especially with the fist turn charges we can get off now.

CovenantGuardian wrote:
Focus firing to trigger catastrophic morale tests seems like the way to go against Warriors. Or you know do what has always worked against Necrons, fight them in close combat.

They were equally survivable in close combat in seventh edition

And a cryptek in a squad of 20 gives a 5++ to shooting, and buffs RP to 4+++....

But i think were fairly balanced overall. All our big guns are very expensive, while our troops are cheap, alot of stuff has gone up in price. Wraiths are even more durable now they have another wound and still a 3++, but tarpits aren't a thing now. Could use them to deny shooting for stuff after falling back I suppose.

We cant spam melta and plasma etc in squads, have to have specalised equipment, making list building very critical.

 Klowny wrote:

CovenantGuardian wrote:
Focus firing to trigger catastrophic morale tests seems like the way to go against Warriors. Or you know do what has always worked against Necrons, fight them in close combat.

Our CC has been given a huge buff, now that if we get the charge off, we can strike first. Warscythe lychguard and big blobs of flayed ones are looking good, especially with the fist turn charges we can get off now.

I was reffering to warriors specifically, very few people ran melee necrons before. I could see the 20 man unit sizes being overpowered, we will see.

Jup that seems quite strong indeed

To everyone complaining Necrons will be OP, especially new players, need to relax a bit. Necrons in 7th edition were OP. This edition they are reverting back to 5th edition RP, but slightly better and worse. It just means you have to focus a unit down. Infantry in this edition is not hard to remove, so warriors won't be a problem for long.

Also characters don't come back, and once they get in melee or get shot at, they'll die easily, so living metal doesn't mitigate that much in the long run.

If anyone cries OP, then let's play a game using my 7th edition Decurion detachment. You'll love 8th edition Necrons then.

 Imperator97 wrote:
Well, keep in mind they have no special weapons and a worse armour save, so you're more likely to wipe out the unit and deny their survivability boost than you are for marines.

Necron get <Dynasty>, can't say I know if anything interacts with it at the moment.

Overlords, crypteks, monoliths, lords and destroyer lords, night scythes and ghost arks all interact with the <dynasty> rule.

 krodarklorr wrote:
To everyone complaining Necrons will be OP, especially new players, need to relax a bit. Necrons in 7th edition were OP. This edition they are reverting back to 5th edition RP, but slightly better and worse. It just means you have to focus a unit down. Infantry in this edition is not hard to remove, so warriors won't be a problem for long.

Also characters don't come back, and once they get in melee or get shot at, they'll die easily, so living metal doesn't mitigate that much in the long run.

If anyone cries OP, then let's play a game using my 7th edition Decurion detachment. You'll love 85th edition Necrons then.

Even if they're less OP, it's still OP dude. Those Warriors can sit still in cover midfield and get a 2+ save that it's not easy for my army to mitigate, they also pump out good firepower and can't be Sweeping Advanced and are still Ld10 in an edition where everyone else's Ld was lowered. They're looking very good indeed.

I'm not saying warriors are bad. A basic infantry gun at AP-1 is awesome. But where are you getting a 2+ save from? Cover is +1, and warriors have always had a 4+ base.

Even if they're less OP, it's still OP dude. Those Warriors can sit still in cover midfield and get a 2+ save that it's not easy for my army to mitigate, they also pump out good firepower and can't be Sweeping Advanced and are still Ld10 in an edition where everyone else's Ld was lowered. They're looking very good indeed.

To get that cover bonus on the large squad sizes it makes sense to field warriors in, I'd have to fit 10+ of them in cover. For me, where we don't play with a large amount of terrain that could fit that size entirely within it, that's going to be hard to claim, but depending on your club, YMMV.
Also, considering cover is no longer a flat save, like an invulnerable, shifting warriors from cover only takes AP-1 to get them back to their normal save, and anything above that, which seems widely available to a lot of the armies, starts hitting them plenty hard.

Isn't RP just back to what it used to be before the ridiculous 7E book? That should be far easier to deal with in general.

CovenantGuardian wrote:

 Klowny wrote:

CovenantGuardian wrote:
Focus firing to trigger catastrophic morale tests seems like the way to go against Warriors. Or you know do what has always worked against Necrons, fight them in close combat.

Our CC has been given a huge buff, now that if we get the charge off, we can strike first. Warscythe lychguard and big blobs of flayed ones are looking good, especially with the fist turn charges we can get off now.

I was reffering to warriors specifically, very few people ran melee necrons before. I could see the 20 man unit sizes being overpowered, we will see.

I ran melee crone in 6th my praetorians took many a head.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Isn't RP just back to what it used to be before the ridiculous 7E book? That should be far easier to deal with in general.

In their older books, it was only at the end of the phase in which they were killed. As in, you got 1 attempt to re animate them. Also, the units could be destroyed in sweeping advance (especially easy because Necrons has I2), which prevented any re-animation. Now you get an attempt for every single dead model every single turn until the parent unit is killled. Also, you obviously can't sweeping advance to destroy a large unit anymore, and Necrons are extremely resistant to morale damage (LD10 when almost everyone else got nerfed leadership). Any models killed by morale can also be reanimated in this way...

Seems pretty strong.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Isn't RP just back to what it used to be before the ridiculous 7E book? That should be far easier to deal with in general.

I totally agree. I played Necrons when RP was 'We'll be Back!" and a common tactic was to just wipe a unit so they couldn't roll at all. That was back in 4E/5E
Firepower has dramatically increased since them AND Warriors only have a 4+ armour now (instead of the 3+ they had then)

It should be quite easy to kill 80% of a unit and let Morale kill the rest. If the unit has 10 models, kill 8-9 and Morale will kill the last 1-2 models. No unit is left, no RP rolls can be made
And since RP is no longer a 'FNP' equivalent, Necrons are much, MUCH easier to kill in the first place.

 Galef wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Isn't RP just back to what it used to be before the ridiculous 7E book? That should be far easier to deal with in general.

I totally agree. I played Necrons when RP was 'We'll be Back!" and a common tactic was to just wipe a unit so they couldn't roll at all. That was back in 4E/5E
Firepower has dramatically increased since them AND Warriors only have a 4+ armour now (instead of the 3+ they had then)

It should be quite easy to kill 80% of a unit and let Morale kill the rest. If the unit has 10 models, kill 8-9 and Morale will kill the last 1-2 models. No unit is left, no RP rolls can be made
And since RP is no longer a 'FNP' equivalent, Necrons are much, MUCH easier to kill in the first place.

This is exactly my point. Necrons are no longer top tier, so people can't really complain now.

krodarklorr wrote:I'm not saying warriors are bad. A basic infantry gun at AP-1 is awesome. But where are you getting a 2+ save from? Cover is +1, and warriors have always had a 4+ base.

Not exactly true. They had a 3+ in 3rd, but that was without Immortals being an option.

Vaktathi wrote:Isn't RP just back to what it used to be before the ridiculous 7E book? That should be far easier to deal with in general.

It's closer to the 3rd Edition than the 5th. 3rd was once per turn, 5th was per Phase. Neither one on its own allowed for bringing them back once the initial attempt was made.

Ah I didnt realize it allowed for multiple attempts, I missed that, that's a bit silly, but it's still hands down more balanced than the 7E incarnation that was (due to detachments) basically always a 4+ and could be taken against every wound (not just casualties) with no negation for wiping the unit.

That said, for multiwound models, do they come back with full wounds or just one? Coming back with full wounds would be silly as well.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Ah I didnt realize it allowed for multiple attempts, I missed that, that's a bit silly, but it's still hands down more balanced than the 7E incarnation that was (due to detachments) basically always a 4+ and could be taken against every wound (not just casualties) with no negation for wiping the unit.

That said, for multiwound models, do they come back with full wounds or just one? Coming back with full wounds would be silly as well.

It doesn't say whether they come back at full wounds. Hopefully will be clarified in an errata.

Asura Varuna wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Ah I didnt realize it allowed for multiple attempts, I missed that, that's a bit silly, but it's still hands down more balanced than the 7E incarnation that was (due to detachments) basically always a 4+ and could be taken against every wound (not just casualties) with no negation for wiping the unit.

That said, for multiwound models, do they come back with full wounds or just one? Coming back with full wounds would be silly as well.

It doesn't say whether they come back at full wounds. Hopefully will be clarified in an errata.

Oh GW...

Yeah what did you expect concise and accurate? Not from this company.

Well, we know that Characters do NOT have RP. They have Living Metal, just like the vehicles. So maybe clarification isn't needed since all the units with RP only have 1-2 wound per model anyway.

-

 Galef wrote:
Well, we know that Characters do NOT have RP. They have Living Metal, just like the vehicles. So maybe clarification isn't needed since all the units with RP only have 1-2 wound per model anyway.

-

Destroyers have 3. X.x

I don't see RP being too much of a problem as long as you mitigate it with focused fire. It'll probably just be enough to offset their 4+ armor save in a typical game.

They basically pay a MEQ price for a MEQ unit, but exchange -1 on their armor save for RP.

If they have 3 groups of 20 warriors, and you reduce each one to 1 model after battleshock, they get to make 57 RP rolls and quite a few of those are going to get back up. If you focus fire and leave them with just one 3-model squad standing instead, they only get to make 17 RP rolls. Plan accordingly.

 Galef wrote:
Well, we know that Characters do NOT have RP. They have Living Metal, just like the vehicles. So maybe clarification isn't needed since all the units with RP only have 1-2 wound per model anyway.

A useless reference. A one model unit has no use for an ability which requires other models in the same unit around in order to work.

Lots of comments in this thread of "Just wipe them out in a turn". It actually takes quite a few shots to kill 20 T4 4+ models in a single turn, especially so where there are no blasts to punish clumping in cover, or any AP4 guns to simply negate their cover saves. Are there going to be many armies that are capable of doing that, especially at lower points levels. Remember also that a CP can be used to auto-pass a morale test, in case you were planning on relying on that to destroy a unit. If you do attempt to clear a unit in a single turn and fail, you're then left with the dilemma of attempting to destroy a fresh unit, or splitting your fire between the diminished one, but leaving yourself with a new half-dead squad to start reanimating. Throughout the battle, your ability to remove entire squads will decrease as well.

Out of interest, what would people's plans be for destroying warriors wholesale? It'd take about 120 bolter/pulse rifle shots to destroy a unit out of cover, and you'd have to find a way to bring all of those to bear on the same target (may be difficult due to line of sight, and range). There are no large blasts to remove models en masse. I'm quite certain my Tau army would struggle to consistently destroy whole squads in a single turn, and that's even ignoring other threats from the Necron list.