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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The challenge is in that you need very specific counters to them.

Imperial Guard will struggle with Necrons, they seem like a soft counter in the same way GSC is to Eldar in 7th.

How do you figure that?

20 Warriors + Cryptek = 347 points
100 Conscripts + CC + Commissar = 360 points.

The 100 Conscripts absolutely vaporize the necrons right then and there. Even if the Necrons shoot first, the remaining conscripts sweep the floor.

Oh it can't be that -
* Remembers that IG can FRFSRF
* That means 200 shots at long range, 400 shots at short range. Which is about 10 - 20 dice per warrior.
* Remembers that warriors only have a 4+ save
* Proceeds to leak oil

Yeah, not going to lie, I do not want to be any where around that squad when it starts firing. Especially when it comes to time.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Oh it can't be that -
* Remembers that IG can FRFSRF
* That means 200 shots at long range, 400 shots at short range. Which is about 10 - 20 dice per warrior.
* Remembers that warriors only have a 4+ save
* Proceeds to leak oil

Yeah, not going to lie, I do not want to be any where around that squad when it starts firing. Especially when it comes to time.

Conscripts are also better at killing your tanks than our AT gun :p. It's stupid. Very stupid.

We can also close combat you with our Baneblades. This is, in fact, the optimum strategy for Baneblade deployment. It's also very stupid.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Oh it can't be that -
* Remembers that IG can FRFSRF
* That means 200 shots at long range, 400 shots at short range. Which is about 10 - 20 dice per warrior.
* Remembers that warriors only have a 4+ save
* Proceeds to leak oil

Yeah, not going to lie, I do not want to be any where around that squad when it starts firing. Especially when it comes to time.

Conscripts are also better at killing your tanks than our AT gun :p. It's stupid. Very stupid.

We can also close combat you with our Baneblades. This is, in fact, the optimum strategy for Baneblade deployment. It's also very stupid.

Yeah, quantum shielding is funny like that.
Just think of it as something like those personal shields from dune, which can block a bullet but does nothing against a slow moving rock.

 Marmatag wrote:
The challenge is in that you need very specific counters to them.

Imperial Guard will struggle with Necrons, they seem like a soft counter in the same way GSC is to Eldar in 7th.

I live in strange world where I (as necrons) exclusively play against an imperial guard player.

The Guard is not countered by necrons.

Hydras hit more than half anything in the necron list with +1 thanks to the way Fly is handled. And at 2 damage, it just murders all of our vehicles. All of them
As someone pointed out before, mortars are hilariously points effective at taking down warriors.
A vet squad in rapid fire range (super do-able now that our anti-vehicle is tough to come by) is murderous

The guard player essentially need to spend a turn killing a single unit, to prevent reanimation, but once they start to remove whole units, the necron list falls apart.

I can not understate how frustrating it can be to watch the whole guard list sitting ~48"+ away from you and removing a unit a turn. Especially now that Necrons struggle to efficiently remove vehicles.


All that said, the games are much closer and a lot more fun than in 7th. Im really enjoying the changes on the whole (except that Hydra nonsense)

unbaraki wrote:


I can not understate how frustrating it can be to watch the whole guard list sitting ~48"+ away from you and removing a unit a turn. Especially now that Necrons struggle to efficiently remove vehicles.

This is something I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around since killing vehicles is one of the things they were most known for.
The lack of cheap anti-tank was offset by the ability of warriors and Immortals to delay or outright destroy tanks. With that gone I'm really feeling absence of affordable anti-tank. It looks like Heavy Destroyers are the go-to but I hate he randomness - it's a lot of points per model to potentially just do one damage.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The challenge is in that you need very specific counters to them.

Imperial Guard will struggle with Necrons, they seem like a soft counter in the same way GSC is to Eldar in 7th.

How do you figure that?

20 Warriors + Cryptek = 347 points
100 Conscripts + CC + Commissar = 360 points.

The 100 Conscripts vaporize the necrons right then and there. Even if the Necrons shoot first, the remaining conscripts sweep the floor.

400 shots * .33 * .33 * .5 = 22 wounds.

If you had 100 of them with ranks of 33 they would be almost 3 feet wide. There is almost no chance of you bringing them all down on one unit like that. If they were 10 wide then you would need to be 2" from them to fire everything. So this "problem" exists when you're literally right on top of them.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The challenge is in that you need very specific counters to them.

Imperial Guard will struggle with Necrons, they seem like a soft counter in the same way GSC is to Eldar in 7th.

How do you figure that?

20 Warriors + Cryptek = 347 points
100 Conscripts + CC + Commissar = 360 points.

The 100 Conscripts vaporize the necrons right then and there. Even if the Necrons shoot first, the remaining conscripts sweep the floor.

400 shots * .33 * .33 * .5 = 22 wounds.

If you had 100 of them with ranks of 33 they would be almost 3 feet wide. There is almost no chance of you bringing them all down on one unit like that. If they were 10 wide then you would need to be 2" from them to fire everything. So this "problem" exists when you're literally right on top of them.

20 dudes side to side is 11 inches, 9 dudes deep (that's what she said) is enough for 100 Guards
That's less than a foot of dudes

 Talamare wrote:

20 dudes side to side is 11 inches, 9 dudes deep (that's what she said) is enough for 100 Guards
That's less than a foot of dudes

A 25mm base is roughly 1 inch. There is no chance 20 can fit in 11 inches.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

20 dudes side to side is 11 inches, 9 dudes deep (that's what she said) is enough for 100 Guards
That's less than a foot of dudes

A 25mm base is roughly 1 inch. There is no chance 20 can fit in 11 inches.

I originally typed in different values and forgot to change the opening credits. Whoops, 11x9 is still... almost 100

It's hard to envision a scenario where 100 conscripts are all in rapid fire range of a squad of 20 warriors.

My point was simply that necrons are highly resilient to shooting.

Army vs Army, the reanimation protocols would be very strong against a group like Guard.

I should also highlight that i play objectives primarily. So sitting back in a gun line doesn't work.

And hey, if i'm wrong, i'm wrong, just in my experiences with Necrons and Guard, seems like an interesting matchup, but one that favors Necrons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

unbaraki wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The challenge is in that you need very specific counters to them.

Imperial Guard will struggle with Necrons, they seem like a soft counter in the same way GSC is to Eldar in 7th.

I live in strange world where I (as necrons) exclusively play against an imperial guard player.

The Guard is not countered by necrons.

Hydras hit more than half anything in the necron list with +1 thanks to the way Fly is handled. And at 2 damage, it just murders all of our vehicles. All of them
As someone pointed out before, mortars are hilariously points effective at taking down warriors.
A vet squad in rapid fire range (super do-able now that our anti-vehicle is tough to come by) is murderous

The guard player essentially need to spend a turn killing a single unit, to prevent reanimation, but once they start to remove whole units, the necron list falls apart.

I can not understate how frustrating it can be to watch the whole guard list sitting ~48"+ away from you and removing a unit a turn. Especially now that Necrons struggle to efficiently remove vehicles.


All that said, the games are much closer and a lot more fun than in 7th. Im really enjoying the changes on the whole (except that Hydra nonsense)

Thanks for the feedback. Would you be willing to share your list?

 Marmatag wrote:

Army vs Army, the reanimation protocols would be very strong against a group like Guard.

How? Reanimation Protocols are done at the start of the necron turn, and don't proc if the squad is wiped out. Guard can take a lot of guns and focus down squads.
Even if the squad isn't wiped, they all aren't coming back, which means less fire power to eliminate them, which means more guns free to target other squads.
Guard are fine against necrons. Its armies who can't just drown their opponent in dice that have trouble.

Marmatag wrote:My point was simply that necrons are highly resilient to shooting.

Not entirely accurate. They are as resilient to Fighting as they are to Shooting. Resiliency is more about the ability to absorb damage, not returning it. They are just much better at fighting back with Shooting then Fighting in most cases.

Or are you figuring their ability to more easily reduce those Shooting them than they can those Fighting them as a part of that resiliency?

 Charistoph wrote:

Marmatag wrote:My point was simply that necrons are highly resilient to shooting.

Not entirely accurate. They are as resilient to Fighting as they are to Shooting. Resiliency is more about the ability to absorb damage, not returning it. They are just much better at fighting back with Shooting then Fighting in most cases.

Or are you figuring their ability to more easily reduce those Shooting them than they can those Fighting them as a part of that resiliency?

So - I agree, a 4+ save and a 4+ reanimation are applied equally in combat from both melee and shooting.

Yes, I am factoring in their ability to return fire, but also the frequency at which they reanimate. In melee, we fight on my turn, and then I fight again on your turn before you get a chance to reanimate. I'm also factoring in the availability of AP weaponry at range, versus in melee.

Except its not 4+. Its a 5+
It only becomes 4+ with a cryptek, and that can be solved with snipers.
If your snipers' first target isn't a buff providing character, which everyone has nowadays, your doing it wrong.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Except its not 4+. Its a 5+
It only becomes 4+ with a cryptek, and that can be solved with snipers.
If your snipers' first target isn't a buff providing character, which everyone has nowadays, your doing it wrong.

Most factions have very poor access to snipers. A Cryptek is T4 W4 4+. You need an average of 14.4 BS3+ sniper rifle shots to kill him. And you have to have LoS from within 36" with a heavy weapon. And if you can't kill him in one turn he heals a wound. Also note that Orikan seems like a strong choice and he has 5 wounds with potential for 7.

But assuming that you get first turn and can deploy everything so that they can shoot the Cryptek, here's what you need to on-average kill it:
Marines need 225 points of Scout snipers
Eldar need 300 points of Rangers
Necrons need 300 points of Deathmarks (note that they can Deep Strike, but also probably the opponent won't let them get in rapid-fire range)
Guard only need 105 points of Ratlings, because they have the only worthwhile snipers

I'm unaware of snipers for other factions, though that could be because I'm just not that familiar with them.

Edit: Oh, Tau need 432 points of Sniper Drones, assuming a Firesight Marksman. Half that if they can get within 24" (they don't have a special deployment rule though).

Dionysodorus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Except its not 4+. Its a 5+
It only becomes 4+ with a cryptek, and that can be solved with snipers.
If your snipers' first target isn't a buff providing character, which everyone has nowadays, your doing it wrong.

Most factions have very poor access to snipers. A Cryptek is T4 W4 4+. You need an average of 14.4 BS3+ sniper rifle shots to kill him. And you have to have LoS from within 36" with a heavy weapon. And if you can't kill him in one turn he heals a wound. Also note that Orikan seems like a strong choice and he has 5 wounds with potential for 7.

But assuming that you get first turn and can deploy everything so that they can shoot the Cryptek, here's what you need to on-average kill it:
Marines need 225 points of Scout snipers
Eldar need 300 points of Rangers
Necrons need 300 points of Deathmarks (note that they can Deep Strike, but also probably the opponent won't let them get in rapid-fire range)
Guard only need 105 points of Ratlings, because they have the only worthwhile snipers

I'm unaware of snipers for other factions, though that could be because I'm just not that familiar with them.

Tau rail rifles are snipers, I think. It might be a bit less to kill him, because if you roll a 6 to wound it inflicts an additional mortal wound.

This is also why melee is a good way to get them. I don't believe there is a rule that prevents you from charging an independent character, only shooting them.

And still, even if you cannot reach, there's always the possibility to pile them into melee combat.

 Marmatag wrote:
This is also why melee is a good way to get them. I don't believe there is a rule that prevents you from charging an independent character, only shooting them.

And still, even if you cannot reach, there's always the possibility to pile them into melee combat.

Nope, no charging restriction. If you get to a character you can charge it.
Lictors are good at that, I think. I don't there's any restriction to charge when arriving from reserves either.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
This is also why melee is a good way to get them. I don't believe there is a rule that prevents you from charging an independent character, only shooting them.

And still, even if you cannot reach, there's always the possibility to pile them into melee combat.

Nope, no charging restriction. If you get to a character you can charge it.
Lictors are good at that, I think. I don't there's any restriction to charge when arriving from reserves either.

Correct, the thing here is that you'd want to body-block a deep-strike (or equivalent) charge with your warriors, while still being far enough away so that your opponent couldn't pile in. And even then, it is a 9+ charge roll.

In any case, there is no "silver bullet," for dealing with warriors, but that's okay. I just don't like the idea of 4+ reanimation. Layered saves were a problem in 7th edition, and this is bordering on that, even if it is restricted to end of turn, especially considering you can roll for the same warrior multiple times.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The challenge is in that you need very specific counters to them.

Imperial Guard will struggle with Necrons, they seem like a soft counter in the same way GSC is to Eldar in 7th.

How do you figure that?

20 Warriors + Cryptek = 347 points
100 Conscripts + CC + Commissar = 360 points.

The 100 Conscripts vaporize the necrons right then and there. Even if the Necrons shoot first, the remaining conscripts sweep the floor.

400 shots * .33 * .33 * .5 = 22 wounds.

Commissars cannot issue orders, 200*.33*.33*.5 = 11 wounds not to mention your counts a full strength unit that would be very susceptible to morale losses.

If the conscripts have a commissar they're only losing one model to morale, though.

 Marmatag wrote:
It's hard to envision a scenario where 100 conscripts are all in rapid fire range of a squad of 20 warriors.

It's hard to imagine a blob of 50 guard that are not terrified of 'Seismic Assault'.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The challenge is in that you need very specific counters to them.

Imperial Guard will struggle with Necrons, they seem like a soft counter in the same way GSC is to Eldar in 7th.

How do you figure that?

20 Warriors + Cryptek = 347 points
100 Conscripts + CC + Commissar = 360 points.

The 100 Conscripts vaporize the necrons right then and there. Even if the Necrons shoot first, the remaining conscripts sweep the floor.

400 shots * .33 * .33 * .5 = 22 wounds.

Commissars cannot issue orders, 200*.33*.33*.5 = 11 wounds not to mention your counts a full strength unit that would be very susceptible to morale losses.

Uhh.... that's why there's a CC. He gets 2 orders per turn.

Commissar makes them battleshock proof, CC gives orders to double their fire output.

And it's not hard to get 50 Guardsmen into rapid-fire range dispersed, so I doubt, with the removal of templates, it will be hard to get 100 guardsmen into rapid-fire range. And of course, that's just equivalent points. If equivalent points of me could always kill equivalent points of you, then the game wouldn't be balanced or very fun, would it? You wouldn't get a turn!

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
It's hard to envision a scenario where 100 conscripts are all in rapid fire range of a squad of 20 warriors.

It's hard to imagine a blob of 50 guard that are not terrified of 'Seismic Assault'.

Keep a Chimera .5" closer to that C'tan Shard and you don't have to worry about it.

 EnTyme wrote:

Keep a Chimera .5" closer to that C'tan Shard and you don't have to worry about it.

To be fair, the Shard can move before using it. But anyway, it expects to kill 25 points' worth of conscripts. That's not terrible, but the Shard probably expects to get more than that out of its powers normally. This is about the same as using Antimatter Meteor on naked tac marines.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Except its not 4+. Its a 5+
It only becomes 4+ with a cryptek, and that can be solved with snipers.
If your snipers' first target isn't a buff providing character, which everyone has nowadays, your doing it wrong.

Most factions have very poor access to snipers. A Cryptek is T4 W4 4+. You need an average of 14.4 BS3+ sniper rifle shots to kill him. And you have to have LoS from within 36" with a heavy weapon. And if you can't kill him in one turn he heals a wound. Also note that Orikan seems like a strong choice and he has 5 wounds with potential for 7.

But assuming that you get first turn and can deploy everything so that they can shoot the Cryptek, here's what you need to on-average kill it:
Marines need 225 points of Scout snipers
Eldar need 300 points of Rangers
Necrons need 300 points of Deathmarks (note that they can Deep Strike, but also probably the opponent won't let them get in rapid-fire range)
Guard only need 105 points of Ratlings, because they have the only worthwhile snipers

I'm unaware of snipers for other factions, though that could be because I'm just not that familiar with them.

Edit: Oh, Tau need 432 points of Sniper Drones, assuming a Firesight Marksman. Half that if they can get within 24" (they don't have a special deployment rule though).

Marines can use ratlings (and get an extra CP out of it)

Tau Drones have an 8" move and fly they have a 32" threat range they can get in rapid fire range no problem and would only need 9 drones with a drone controller and Marksman which puts it below 200 points.

Eldar only need 100 points to have a very good chance at taking out the Cryptek if they burn a CP

Orks, Dark Eldar, and Chaos have no sniper options, but I'm willing to bet Orks will get one soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Marmatag wrote:My point was simply that necrons are highly resilient to shooting.

Not entirely accurate. They are as resilient to Fighting as they are to Shooting. Resiliency is more about the ability to absorb damage, not returning it. They are just much better at fighting back with Shooting then Fighting in most cases.

Or are you figuring their ability to more easily reduce those Shooting them than they can those Fighting them as a part of that resiliency?

So - I agree, a 4+ save and a 4+ reanimation are applied equally in combat from both melee and shooting.

Yes, I am factoring in their ability to return fire, but also the frequency at which they reanimate. In melee, we fight on my turn, and then I fight again on your turn before you get a chance to reanimate. I'm also factoring in the availability of AP weaponry at range, versus in melee.

Not sure why you would take a Cryptek over a Ghost Ark but okay?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Conscripts are also better at killing your tanks than our AT gun :p. It's stupid. Very stupid.

We can also close combat you with our Baneblades. This is, in fact, the optimum strategy for Baneblade deployment. It's also very stupid.

So the best way for Baneblades to kill things is for it to use close combat attacks? And not take any upgrades.

ahhh...this thread.

I hate to say it those being critical, but as someone who plays marines and crons....

The grass is always greener.

The new crons are fine - you can't take any one unit in isolation most of the time - its folly at best, and cherry picking at worst.

Yes, they are durable - guess what - that is about all they got. They have very limited access to long ranged weapons (my marines can get long range in every single slot, and in most units), no grenades, a lack of armor - or especially mobile armor (have you seen the new predator? I am giddy. or dreds....oh, happy day...I have 8 dreds). Yes, a single squad of marines might not be equal in ONE comparison to a single sqaud of necrons. What about all the other cases (where is my flamer, my *new and improved plasma*, my melta bombs, my etc.).
Marines are amazing because they are solid at everything, but not quite masters of any one thing (but they can come close here and there). THAT is their strength.

The key is target priority, a tactical mindset, mastering the movement phase, focus firing and as always - play to the mission.

If you think necrons are OP, play them and find out their limitations. The new book has nerfs where it needed it, and boosts where it needed it, and over all is a good book.

Of course, it is not as awesome as the marine codex (my bike army just all got TWO WOUNDS!!!) or as exciting as the changes for the new Tyranids (NOM NOM NOM!!! ), but the new crons are pretty good - both decent internal and external balance.

Now, can we start a different "necron tactics in 8th" thread.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Conscripts are also better at killing your tanks than our AT gun :p. It's stupid. Very stupid.

We can also close combat you with our Baneblades. This is, in fact, the optimum strategy for Baneblade deployment. It's also very stupid.

So the best way for Baneblades to kill things is for it to use close combat attacks? And not take any upgrades.

A Baneblade can fire all it's guns without penalty while in close-quarters combat. It can only target troops within 1" of it with its heavy bolters. It can fall back and fire all weapons without penalty, so it can always leave combat, and allow it's supporting forces to shoot the enemy.

So look at it this way:
In combat, a Baneblade can use all it's ranged firepower to equivalent effect as if it was not in combat.
In combat, a Baneblade can also use it's melee profile.
The troops in combat with the Baneblade must either fall back to allow other units to shoot the Baneblade but preventing them from doing anything, or remain in combat preventing anything else from shooting the Baneblade.
A Baneblade can fall back and use all it's ranged firepower with full efficiency, and enemy forces may be engaged by supporting troops.
A Baneblade is too big to surround [and therefore trap] in one round of combat.

Therefore, it is theoretically optimal for a Baneblade to engage the enemy forces in close quarters combat, provided they are not dedicated antitank melee forces.



Also, I don't think the 'crons will be OP. I welcome this change to RP, gives me an opportunity to put them down for good. But how I miss my Manticore's 1D3 Large Blasts now, such a missed opportunity.

As bad as RP is, and it's pretty OP, I seriously think quantum shielding is worse. At least in previous editions, it only worked against shooting....

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
As bad as RP is, and it's pretty OP, I seriously think quantum shielding is worse. At least in previous editions, it only worked against shooting....

In the Plasma Edition quantum shielding essentially does nothing.