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Ah, I gotcha. I haven't gotten a great look at the Space Marines Codex reviews, do we know if wargear options like Artificer Armour are coming back for HQ choices?

I can't wait to see our new book, the entire 3rd Company the way I am fielding them come in at 3,009 points with transports. Hoping to get them all in at just under 3k. The standard game size here is 1,500 so it will be cool to play a 3 person game with two players versus the entire Blood Angels 3rd Company once they are assembled if there is an odd number of players on 40k night.

Ruchy wrote:
I am really liking the idea of 5 man Vanguard vets with jump packs coming down with two Plasma pistols a piece for 160, ten shots with a 24" threat range.

Must be very special plasma pistols with 24" range, the ones in my index imperium 1 are only 12".

Bad choice anyway. 5 Company veterans with JP are 95, add 5 combi plasmaguns for 75, and you are at 170, plus 5 chainswords for 0. With combi plasmaguns you have 10 shots at 12" and 5 shots at 24". Your pistols only shoot at 12". You can shoot both the bolter and plasma, if you want, 4 shots at 12", or 2 shots at 24", with -1 BS. You can fire overwatch with 4 shots per model, hitting on 6s, the -1 modifier does not count. The chainsword adds +1 attack to each model. You can also replace the chainsword for a stormshield for 5 points per model if you want to improve their chances of staying alive longer.

p5freak wrote:

Ruchy wrote:
I am really liking the idea of 5 man Vanguard vets with jump packs coming down with two Plasma pistols a piece for 160, ten shots with a 24" threat range.

Must be very special plasma pistols with 24" range, the ones in my index imperium 1 are only 12".

Bad choice anyway. 5 Company veterans with JP are 95, add 5 combi plasmaguns for 75, and you are at 170, plus 5 chainswords for 0. With combi plasmaguns you have 10 shots at 12" and 5 shots at 24". Your pistols only shoot at 12". You can shoot both the bolter and plasma, if you want, 4 shots at 12", or 2 shots at 24", with -1 BS. You can fire overwatch with 4 shots per model, hitting on 6s, the -1 modifier does not count. The chainsword adds +1 attack to each model. You can also replace the chainsword for a stormshield for 5 points per model if you want to improve their chances of staying alive longer.

Move 12" then fire.

p5freak wrote:

Ruchy wrote:
I am really liking the idea of 5 man Vanguard vets with jump packs coming down with two Plasma pistols a piece for 160, ten shots with a 24" threat range.

Must be very special plasma pistols with 24" range, the ones in my index imperium 1 are only 12".

Bad choice anyway. 5 Company veterans with JP are 95, add 5 combi plasmaguns for 75, and you are at 170, plus 5 chainswords for 0. With combi plasmaguns you have 10 shots at 12" and 5 shots at 24". Your pistols only shoot at 12". You can shoot both the bolter and plasma, if you want, 4 shots at 12", or 2 shots at 24", with -1 BS. You can fire overwatch with 4 shots per model, hitting on 6s, the -1 modifier does not count. The chainsword adds +1 attack to each model. You can also replace the chainsword for a stormshield for 5 points per model if you want to improve their chances of staying alive longer.

As Frocozone said, they have a 12" move and have 12" range on the pistols, so 24" threat range.

Also, the pistols are superior on Vanguard Vets compared to the Combiplasma, and here's why.

You shoot with the paired Plasma Pistols, then charge in, attack, and the following turn if your opponent stays in melee with you, you can then shoot the pistols in the shooting phase while still fighting in the fight phase, so you don't have to jump out of combat to use the weapons as you would with a Combiplasma. I'd rather take the two plasma pistol shots hitting on 3+ (and able to fire both in and out of melee) and two ST:4 attacks in melee at 3+ to hit and keep a unit tied up/forcing them to fall back than have two additional bolter shots from a combi plasma that force me to hit on 4+ with both the bolt shots and plasma shots.

Just my opinion on that.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:

As Frocozone said, they have a 12" move and have 12" range on the pistols, so 24" threat range.

I see. Then i have 36" threat range.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

You shoot with the paired Plasma Pistols, then charge in, attack, and the following turn if your opponent stays in melee with you, you can then shoot the pistols in the shooting phase while still fighting in the fight phase, so you don't have to jump out of combat to use the weapons as you would with a Combiplasma. I'd rather take the two plasma pistol shots hitting on 3+ (and able to fire both in and out of melee) and two ST:4 attacks in melee at 3+ to hit and keep a unit tied up/forcing them to fall back than have two additional bolter shots from a combi plasma that force me to hit on 4+ with both the bolt shots and plasma shots.

Ok, less attacks, less range, but better hit chance, and more damage, more AP.

How are people finding Land Speeders these days? May be able to come into three rather cheaply.

I like them, but they are pretty expensive, and quite fragile with T5 and W6. One with rocket launcher and multimelta is 157 pts.

p5freak wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

As Frocozone said, they have a 12" move and have 12" range on the pistols, so 24" threat range.

I see. Then i have 36" threat range.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

You shoot with the paired Plasma Pistols, then charge in, attack, and the following turn if your opponent stays in melee with you, you can then shoot the pistols in the shooting phase while still fighting in the fight phase, so you don't have to jump out of combat to use the weapons as you would with a Combiplasma. I'd rather take the two plasma pistol shots hitting on 3+ (and able to fire both in and out of melee) and two ST:4 attacks in melee at 3+ to hit and keep a unit tied up/forcing them to fall back than have two additional bolter shots from a combi plasma that force me to hit on 4+ with both the bolt shots and plasma shots.

Ok, less attacks, less range, but better hit chance, and more damage, more AP.

Wait? What? More damage? More AP? What are you smoking? Can I have some?

It's literally the same strength (2x plasma pistol shots at the same strength and AP as 2x plasma gun shots, and the space marine's melee attacks are the same as the bolter's, ST:4, AP:-).

The difference is that the combi plasma can put one shot out to 24" (Or 36" if you're factoring in movement, which we have been) so you have a greater threat range, with reduced amount of threat (5x shots vs. 10 shots inside 12" or 10 shots with 2x plasma pistols each). Also, as I said, you can fire both parts of a combi plasma but it reduces your to-hit to a 4+ instead. Not ideal.

If you get stuck in melee, you don't have to leave combat, exposing yourself to more enemy fire and removing the ability to charge back in on your turn. Yes you can shoot, but I'd MUCH rather stay in melee, and fire the pistols at 3+ to hit at the targets I'm engaged with, and then attack with 3+ to hit with two melee attacks per model. Hell, the Sergeant gets a third attack if memory serves, so you get slightly MORE potential damage output staying in melee and blasting with the plasma pistols before then smashing the enemy with them in the fight phase. Force the enemy to fall back away from you if they have to.

There's no place where, on Vanguarrd Veterans anyway, a combi plasma is superior to paired plasma pistols except for range, and I don't care about range, as the Vanguard Vets can drop in with jump packs and light a target up.

Just my opinion on that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:

p5freak wrote:

Ruchy wrote:
I am really liking the idea of 5 man Vanguard vets with jump packs coming down with two Plasma pistols a piece for 160, ten shots with a 24" threat range.

Must be very special plasma pistols with 24" range, the ones in my index imperium 1 are only 12".

Bad choice anyway. 5 Company veterans with JP are 95, add 5 combi plasmaguns for 75, and you are at 170, plus 5 chainswords for 0. With combi plasmaguns you have 10 shots at 12" and 5 shots at 24". Your pistols only shoot at 12". You can shoot both the bolter and plasma, if you want, 4 shots at 12", or 2 shots at 24", with -1 BS. You can fire overwatch with 4 shots per model, hitting on 6s, the -1 modifier does not count. The chainsword adds +1 attack to each model. You can also replace the chainsword for a stormshield for 5 points per model if you want to improve their chances of staying alive longer.

As Frocozone said, they have a 12" move and have 12" range on the pistols, so 24" threat range.

Also, the pistols are superior on Vanguard Vets compared to the Combiplasma, and here's why.

You shoot with the paired Plasma Pistols, then charge in, attack, and the following turn if your opponent stays in melee with you, you can then shoot the pistols in the shooting phase while still fighting in the fight phase, so you don't have to jump out of combat to use the weapons as you would with a Combiplasma. I'd rather take the two plasma pistol shots hitting on 3+ (and able to fire both in and out of melee) and two ST:4 attacks in melee at 3+ to hit and keep a unit tied up/forcing them to fall back than have two additional bolter shots from a combi plasma that force me to hit on 4+ with both the bolt shots and plasma shots.

Just my opinion on that.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

So after you shoot and charge in melee, you can shoot your plasma pistols during your opponents shooting phase next turn?

 Crusaderobr wrote:

So after you shoot and charge in melee, you can shoot your plasma pistols during your opponents shooting phase next turn?

No no no no no no...

Your opponent gets their turn, and you would get to attack with your Vanguard Vets with their melee attacks when you activate them, provided your opponent doesn't flee from combat in the movement phase.

If the enemy remains engaged with your Vanguard Vets on their turn, and they are still engaged with you on your next shooting phase, you can again blast them with paired plasma pistols without having to leave combat on your own movement phase (though you can jump out and still shoot if you wish thanks to the Fly keyword, you lose out on the attacks in melee, but if you're trying to prevent further melee casualties, I can see this being viable).

Hopefully that makes sense. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Wait? What? More damage? More AP? What are you smoking? Can I have some?

Lets assume that by some miracle no one dies, and play this through.

I deepstrike, shoot four times (hitting at 4+), charge in, get 16 attacks in CC (chainsword +1 attack), in my enemys turn i also get 16 attacks in CC. In my next turn i jump out of CC, and shoot again four times, hitting at 4+. That gives me 20 attacks at S4 DS0, W1, hitting at 4+. 32 attacks hitting at 3+, with S4, DS0, W1. And 20 attacks at S7 DS-3, W1, hitting on 4+. I can charge in again, and attack in CC.

You deepstrike, shoot twice, charge in, get 11 attacks in CC, in your enemys turn again 11 CC attacks, in your turns shooting phase you get to shoot twice again, in CC. You get 20 shots at S7, AP-3, W1, and 22 CC attacks at S4 AP0, W1. Always hitting on 3+. You stay in CC.

In total i have 72 attacks, you only have 42 attacks. My chance to hit is worse with some of them, and i do less damage with some of them. But i have 30 more attacks than you do.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

If you get stuck in melee, you don't have to leave combat, exposing yourself to more enemy fire and removing the ability to charge back in on your turn.

No, i dont have to leave combat, but my enemy could, exposing me to enemy fire. So it doesnt really matter.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

There's no place where, on Vanguarrd Veterans anyway, a combi plasma is superior to paired plasma pistols except for range, and I don't care about range, as the Vanguard Vets can drop in with jump packs and light a target up.

I find company veterans superior to vanguard veterans. Its not just the combi plasma, i also get a chainsword for free, which gives +1 attack in CC. And i can fire 20 shots of overwatch, the -1 modifier to hit does not count, with pistols its only 10. And i have 24" range. I get all of that for just 10 more points, for 5 models, compared to the vanguard veterans.

So who here is planning on taking Lieutenants to buff the damage of your jump troops?

That guy's pretty cheap for a quick and easy reroll-1s on to-wounds aura, and not too shabby in close combat (4 wounds, 3 attacks, WS2+) for 78 points. And according to GW, we absolutely can take units like the Lt without losing BattleForged.

He's only WS3+ unfortunately. Shame. If he were 2+ (like a WGBL) he might be worth taking with a TH.

For a few more points you can take a Sanguinary Ancient who comes with a JP, 2+ save and allows nearby units to ignore Morale as well as allowing rerolls to wound of a 1.

An Ancient is better with JP units IMHO but a Lieutenant is not too shabby baby-sitting some Devastators.

So I'm planning a new list, looking to get feedback.

2000 points, Battalion and two Vanguard Detachments, for 8 CP

Played two Konor games today.

Went with 100 PL. (I'm usually a points person but it seems in my new area there are more PL players.)
2x libby-nought
3 ASC/melee dreads, one with heavy flamer
2 Las/missile dreads
1 FW relic contemptor dread with ASC/melee
1 twin HB razorback
3 auto/las preds

Beat tyranids with 2 swarms of gants, tervigon, swarmlord, genestealer pack, broodlord, 3 'fexes, 2 groups of 3 warriors, and a prime. He got in a t1 charge with swarmlord on the 'stealers and a successful long-bomb charge, but the 3 ASC dreads that got dragged in made him pay for it, and none of them dropped. Dice were kind of cold turn 1, but my turn 2 all the lascannons went hot, and every successful wound pulled down 6 damage. Many of the big bugs were heavily wounded, and then dropped turn 3. He took out 3 dreads and damaged almost everything else except for the corner-shooting las/missile dreads, but was down to gaunts only on turn 4.

Played against death guard with 50 PL
1 libby nought
3 ASC/claw dreads, 1 heavy flamer
2 las/missile dreads
1 razorback

He came in with 60 poxwalkers, typhus, another psyker, two of the bell-dudes, and a unit of plague marines. Needless to say with no transports, the first couple turns were pox units getting crippled, however once he got to combat, his dice went blazing-go-to-vegas-right-now hot. His psyker took 9 unsaved wounds TWICE from a dread ccw, and the fnp 5+ made him take only 3 of the 18. 4 Poxwalkers lived through dread ccw attacks by rolling triple 5+'s, Typhus passed every invuln save, he passed every psychic test all game on a 10 or 11, (but not 12!) and he got d6's on smite 4 times, all of which rolled 5+. At the sight of this, my dice started packing up and going home. Dreads were getting 0-1 hits in melee, the shooty dreads were completely whiffing, I rolled under 7 on every psychic test and got denied on literally every power all game. The crazy part is that at the bottom of 7, I still could've won if I could've killed 4 pox walkers with a las/missile dread and the razorback, or if one of the previous dreads in a melee mosh-pit had exploded, as several of his characters were on 1-2 wounds.

Sad days on that one. That may have been the most lucky opponent I've ever played against. My dice go cold all the time so that part wasn't a surprise, but when he started back-to-back having poxes and 4 wound no-invuln characters tanking dreadnought attacks, I was floored.

So +1 and -1 on the Konor score for imperium. At least I didn't do damage to us I guess.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So is the optimal way to run Death Company 2x Chainswords on basically everyone? Possibly with a fist on one to help bust up big stuff now that fists are a lot cheaper than before (and actually cheaper than a Thunder Hammer).

I'm aware that the Power Fist was changed in SM, but was it FAQ'd for BA?

Hadn't realised that Death Company were running Chainswords for days. I thought you only get +1 attack for Chainswords. Can you split attacks between weapons or something?

In the FAQ regarding the SM Codex, they said use the new numbers wherever the overlap. So anything that has a Datasheet or Wargear option in the SM Codex can be overridden. Since I will have the SM Codex for my other main army (Crimson Fists), I am going to use the new values.

Yes, you can split the attacks between the two weapons, so you effectively get +2 Attacks if using two Chainswords.

I read thru the FAQ's can't find any mention of this, Could you post the link and what page?

Karhedron wrote:
For a few more points you can take a Sanguinary Ancient who comes with a JP, 2+ save and allows nearby units to ignore Morale as well as allowing rerolls to wound of a 1.

The rerolls to wound on a 1 are only in the fight phase.

senor_flojo wrote:So I'm planning a new list, looking to get feedback.

I think chainswords on veterans are wasted, you should give them some power weapons to make their 2 attacks count. Maybe remove some models from your death company.

Remtek wrote:
I read thru the FAQ's can't find any mention of this, Could you post the link and what page?

Remtek wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So is the optimal way to run Death Company 2x Chainswords on basically everyone? Possibly with a fist on one to help bust up big stuff now that fists are a lot cheaper than before (and actually cheaper than a Thunder Hammer).

I'm aware that the Power Fist was changed in SM, but was it FAQ'd for BA?

Hadn't realised that Death Company were running Chainswords for days. I thought you only get +1 attack for Chainswords. Can you split attacks between weapons or something?

In the FAQ regarding the SM Codex, they said use the new numbers wherever the overlap. So anything that has a Datasheet or Wargear option in the SM Codex can be overridden. Since I will have the SM Codex for my other main army (Crimson Fists), I am going to use the new values.

Yes, you can split the attacks between the two weapons, so you effectively get +2 Attacks if using two Chainswords.

I read thru the FAQ's can't find any mention of this, Could you post the link and what page?

The FAQ I've seen says he's wrong.
[url]https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/
[/url]

There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?
While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range.

There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example. Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).

They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.

Based on how this reads, there is no swapping of points back and forth between the codex and index. If you use the Codex, you use codex points/rules. If you use the index, you use index points.

p5freak wrote:

senor_flojo wrote:So I'm planning a new list, looking to get feedback.

I think chainswords on veterans are wasted, you should give them some power weapons to make their 2 attacks count. Maybe remove some models from your death company.

Good call, just went back and magnetized the squad!

I'm thinking 2 plasma pistols and 2 power swords

senor_flojo wrote:
So I'm planning a new list, looking to get feedback.

2000 points, Battalion and two Vanguard Detachments, for 8 CP

Spoiler:

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [32 PL, 538pts] ++

+ HQ +

Astorath [8 PL, 143pts]

+ Elites +

Sanguinary Guard [10 PL, 168pts]
. Sanguinary Guard: Encarmine sword, Plasma pistol
. Sanguinary Guard: Encarmine sword, Plasma pistol
. Sanguinary Guard: Encarmine sword, Plasma pistol
. Sanguinary Guard: Encarmine sword, Plasma pistol

Sanguinary Guard Ancient [6 PL, 104pts]: Encarmine sword, Plasma pistol

Vanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 123pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Veteran Sergeant: 2x Lightning Claw

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [63 PL, 967pts] ++

+ HQ +

Lemartes [7 PL, 129pts]

+ Elites +

Death Company [10 PL, 100pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword

Death Company [20 PL, 200pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword

Death Company Dreadnought [11 PL, 212pts]: Furioso fist (pair), Heavy flamer, Meltagun, Smoke launchers

+ Flyer +

Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 326pts]: 2x Stormstrike missile launcher, Twin lascannon, Twin multi-melta
. Two hurricane bolters: 2x Hurricane bolter

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [28 PL, 495pts] ++

+ HQ +

Librarian [7 PL, 130pts]: Bolt pistol, Force stave, Jump Pack, Sanguinary Discipline, Smite

Sanguinary Priest [5 PL, 90pts]: Bolt pistol, Jump Pack, Power sword

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [6 PL, 111pts]
. Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle
. Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle
. Scout: Camo cloak, Sniper rifle
. Scout: Camo cloak, Missile launcher
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Camo cloak, Sniper rifle

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 82pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine (Special weapon): Flamer
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Hand flamer

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 82pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Heavy flamer
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol and boltgun

++ Total: [123 PL, 2000pts] ++

You have only one reliable way to pop vehicles, once your raven is gone you're effectively crippled against a balanced or high toughness force.


Also Coyote81, thanks for clearing that up. It's been screwing with me since it was posted. ^_^

 Coyote81 wrote:
Based on how this reads, there is no swapping of points back and forth between the codex and index. If you use the Codex, you use codex points/rules. If you use the index, you use index points.

However, a more recent post suggests otherwise:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/22/the-other-angels-of-death-and-codex-space-marines/

If you have a Deathwatch army, the same applies. For the Deathwatch, as well as new units, if you have the new Codex: Space Marines, feel free to use the full range of powers from the Space Marines Librarius Discipline in there for your Librarians. You’re equally welcome to stick with the Index powers if you prefer.

Or in other words, a Deathwatch Librarian can pick an choose whether or not to use the new librarian rules or the index ones for Deathwatch. Which I take as a permissive supporting my philosophy of "take the codex where it applies, the index where it doesn't".

I'm building my BA as generic space marines (no chapter tactics, but generic relics) from C:SM, save that I'm using the sanguinary discipline from the index and potentially sanguinary guard and sanguinary priests, as well. I don't like using named characters so those are out anyway for me.

So this is in response to some of the lists I've seen posted. Take what you want to take, the point is to have fun, but this is some pseudo math hammering that I do when I'm looking at different list options so I can try and make sure I'm bringing enough tools to not get pantsed. It's not real mathhammer, I'm just charting the strength and number or shots I get from my ranged weapons. I don't count pistols or melee attacks because they're not "reliably" going to go off every turn. I'm posting this because it's really easy to get caught up in chain sword spam so I'm hoping it helps some burgeoning list builders out there start reppin' for The Emperors finest.

The first thing is to consider your opponents. Let's pretend they're MEQ because odds

Based on the internet, everyone is in love with assbacks and vehicles again. Basically every vehicle is T7, so I want to know I can handle T7 with my shooting.

If something, flamers, has a random number of hits just count it as four per d6. You want an idea, not accuracy.

If something gets a re-roll to hit, either total or just on 1, add an asterix. You should be pessimistic when determining final damage, so mentally you should halve all your shots to determine hits. This asterix tells you that those four lascannon shots could actually be three or four hits instead of two.

Anything lower than T7 I'm going to assume I'll be punching in the face, because BA.

Try to justify your choice of being BA. If your list would perform better as a different Chapter, then go be that different chapter. Don't be strawberry vanilla. Granted, this is currently difficult, but try.

Now I make a chart on paper because it's easier to process when written instead of typed. In the header column I have the names of the lists, then in the subsequent columns I have S4 through S9, these are what count unless you're going outside of the codex. Still don't take vindicators, they're not worth the points yet.

_____S4_____S5_____S6_____S7_____S8_____S9
v1- __76_____6_____36_____12_____11_____0

v2-__50_____10_____12_____18*____7_____4*

v3-__64_____18_____16_____12*____6_____6*

The first list was very dakka and flavorful. It has Meph, Lemartes, a Sanguinary Priest, DC, DC Dread, and a descent accompaniment of armor. I love this list and I'm definitely gonna fun run it. It lacks on the re-roll security however, and a lot of its anti vehicle could get locked in combat cause they're jump pack meltas that I plan on using turn 2 when the dread is flown in. So overall the list lacks alpha capability as well as the reach out and touch someone feel of lascannons. It makes up for it in combat, but that's unreliable. This list probably won't kill a tank turn one.

V2 I think I hit a good blend of BA guilt and generic units with this one. I dropped the assbacks for lasbacks so a captain could babysit my long range communications and added a hellblaster squad so I could play with the new toys and have a high powered death bubble around the captain. Still got a lot of death company so I don't feel guilty about dropping Meph. Also stripped the tacticals down to just objective sitters. This list has the lowest low power shots, which is theoretically what BA combat is for, but the highest number of high powered re-rolls to take on the vehicle meta. This list probably will kill a tank turn one.

V3 Is me trying to add more primaris marines to the core. I swapped a couple of the bare tacticals for intercessors, added a priest to increase the DC punch, dropped the auto preds for a baal pred. I advice against baal preds but wanted to add back in unique BA units and figured a bully flamer tank backing up the DC could be cute. Then added another lasback to the captains retinue. This list probably will kill a tank turn one.


For competitive I'm probably going to go with V2 because I was able to maximize its high strength reliable shooting while still keeping half the army assault based. As BA I think we need to thread the needle of assault and shooty. If we're gun lines we're wasting our potential, but if we're assault based we risk bad match ups. The lists aren't posted because the post is about counting out what you're really bringing to the table and iterating on your initial idea instead of fantasizing about angry marines punching things and ending up disappointed in their performance.

Anyway, sorry for rambling and I hope this helps some newer players.

I usually count flamers as 3.5 hits, as they average between thre and four technically (each result, 1-6, has an equal chance of resulting technically, so (1+2+3+4+5+6)/6 = 3.5). Rounding it up to four does make them appear slightly stronger than they actually are, so be aware of that.

 Melissia wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:
Based on how this reads, there is no swapping of points back and forth between the codex and index. If you use the Codex, you use codex points/rules. If you use the index, you use index points.

However, a more recent post suggests otherwise:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/22/the-other-angels-of-death-and-codex-space-marines/

If you have a Deathwatch army, the same applies. For the Deathwatch, as well as new units, if you have the new Codex: Space Marines, feel free to use the full range of powers from the Space Marines Librarius Discipline in there for your Librarians. You’re equally welcome to stick with the Index powers if you prefer.

Or in other words, a Deathwatch Librarian can pick an choose whether or not to use the new librarian rules or the index ones for Deathwatch. Which I take as a permissive supporting my philosophy of "take the codex where it applies, the index where it doesn't".

I'm building my BA as generic space marines (no chapter tactics, but generic relics) from C:SM, save that I'm using the sanguinary discipline from the index and potentially sanguinary guard and sanguinary priests, as well. I don't like using named characters so those are out anyway for me.

Well if your group agrees, you can do whatever you want, even if it stretches the rules alot. My group will allow the deathwatch librarians to use either discipline, because Deathwatch don't have their own codex, so they can use either Librarian, but they can't mix and match. And especially not having them be a blood angel successor and using the C:SM datasheet and special rules, which is clearly called out in the C:SM as not allowed before the special rules start.

I don't see this what I'm doing as stretching the rules beyond GW's intent.

I quote from the same page:

Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves army lists in Index: Imperium 1 all let you use units from the Space Marines section of that book. If you own the new codex, you should feel free to use those same units’ Datasheets from that book instead, until your own codex comes out.

Emphasis mine.

Blood Angels use a lot of units from the generic Space Marine section of the index. Games Workshop explicitly said that if you have the codex, you can take units from the codex that are updates to the generic units of the index.

 Melissia wrote:
I don't see this what I'm doing as stretching the rules beyond GW's intent.

I quote from the same page:

Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves army lists in Index: Imperium 1 all let you use units from the Space Marines section of that book. If you own the new codex, you should feel free to use those same units’ Datasheets from that book instead, until your own codex comes out.

Emphasis mine.

Blood Angels use a lot of units from the generic Space Marine section of the index. Games Workshop explicitly said that if you have the codex, you can take units from the codex that are updates to the generic units of the index.

You can use the space marines the same way you did in the index, which means you get none of the space marine codex special rules, just the updated datasheets. So no C:SM relics etc and such things from that book. Only datasheets, and especially not taking C:SM librarians using c:ssm benefits while taking the sanguinary discipline, that straight cheating imo. The deathwatch used the basic librarian discipline to start, so it makes since that they can take the expanded one. The blood angel sections says specifically that you have to take the sanguinary discipline, but that only counts if your a blood angel or successor. If you use any special rules form c:sm, your not a blood angel.





In other news, what are people's thoughts on having access to all of the primaris stuff? That repulsor tank seems rather cool, outclasses our baal predator by miles imo.

Aggressors would look beautiful in red imho, and the flamer weapons are calling out to me... Plus Inceptors with the plasma guns look pretty neat, and would fit well with a drop army. My main issue again with the Primaris stuff is nothing is really made for close combat, except maybe Reivers. Plus with our Sergeants having no power weapons, eh, not interested yet.

Aggressors would look beautiful in red imho, and the flamer weapons are calling out to me... Plus Inceptors with the plasma guns look pretty neat, and would fit well with a drop army. My main issue again with the Primaris stuff is nothing is really made for close combat, except maybe Reivers. Plus with our Sergeants having no power weapons, eh, not interested yet.

diepotato47 wrote:
Aggressors would look beautiful in red imho, and the flamer weapons are calling out to me... Plus Inceptors with the plasma guns look pretty neat, and would fit well with a drop army. My main issue again with the Primaris stuff is nothing is really made for close combat, except maybe Reivers. Plus with our Sergeants having no power weapons, eh, not interested yet.

What I'd give for Primaris Death Company...

Given that the Gene Seed is meant to be more stable though, can't see it happening.

I'm after jump and bike Primaris units. Interceptors are awesome models, but an army of 18" Heavy Bolters is a bit meh.

Primaris Death Company have to happen, otherwise all the people saying it's the death of Marines as we know it would be wrong
I'm sure at some point down the track there will be a more "Assault Marine" Primaris varient, at the moment Inceptors are more like Drop Centurions than anything else