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 Coyote81 wrote:
@Gunsmith Looks like an Ultrasmurfs list.

No it doesn't. It looks like a goddamned BA list.

I'm really torn as to what to even recommend in 8th. Without a codex, nearly everything BA try do will be done better by vanilla marines, as has been the case for three editions now. That's why BA lists are looking like vanilla lists. On top of the difficulty of differentiating two lists with the same base troops and weapons.

I think that power armor melee troops have really been on a downhill slide for some time now as well. The final nail I think is the walking out of CC rule.

 Melissia wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:
@Gunsmith Looks like an Ultrasmurfs list.

No it doesn't. It looks like a goddamned BA list.

Hah, Melissia, I feel like people often forget that Blood Angels are a Codex Compliant Chapter, that happens to have a few unique units. Instead, people seem to think that the only way to play Blood Angels is nothing but Jump Packs, Death Company and Baal Predators. Wrong.

Plus, I play a Successor Chapter (Blood Knights), which the High Lords of Terra have decreed to be renegade. It would only make sense that we no longer have access to a lot of the unique and rare wargear anymore.

Besides, if that's all you bring, you're missing out on the BA Tactical Squad box, which is one of, if not THE best looking marine squad kit ever released.

Are heavy bolter sponsons worth it on a standard predator? Seems like the sort of dakka marines can get multiple other places. I'm leaning towards getting some "start collecting" boxes and Razorbacks, then swapping assault cannon to the Razors and twin lascannon to the Predator. Seems more economical than buying Crusader sprues. Is autocannon generally preferred with its consistent damage? I'll also have to get some sponson lascannons if heavy bolters are mediocre..

 Melissia wrote:
Besides, if that's all you bring, you're missing out on the BA Tactical Squad box, which is one of, if not THE best looking marine squad kit ever released.

All of my Blood Angels are the old metal ones, with newer plastic bits. I haven't gotten a good look at a lot of the goodies in the plastic BA box.

For a standard pred, the lascannons are definitely favored. The 2d3 autocannon shots are good against heavy infantry enough to justify heavy bolters, but usually you have plenty of other things to use for that. But having long-ranged anti-tank is just much more important for most marine lists. If you're not using a baal pred, I'd use lascannon sponsons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Besides, if that's all you bring, you're missing out on the BA Tactical Squad box, which is one of, if not THE best looking marine squad kit ever released.

All of my Blood Angels are the old metal ones, with newer plastic bits. I haven't gotten a good look at a lot of the goodies in the plastic BA box.

They're amazing. There's so much detail and the scullpting is beautiful.

Thanks Melissia, the lascannon seemed better to me but I thought I might be missing something. I'll definitely be using a Baal Predator, I've always loved the looks of it. The flamestorm cannon doesn't interest me, the twin assault cannons seem much more versatile. I was thinking if I use a Baal Pred to fight from midfield it could also escort a Razor or two, with that many assault cannons do the sponson flamers make sense for A) protecting the transports from assault once they back, and B) close range threat deterrent in general? If there are 24-36 assault cannon shots I don't think I'll be missing the 6 from heavy bolters, but I most of what I've read thus far in 8th has been pretty negative towards all types of flamers. Any thoughts?

 NH Gunsmith wrote:


Plus, I play a Successor Chapter (Blood Knights), which the High Lords of Terra have decreed to be renegade. It would only make sense that we no longer have access to a lot of the unique and rare wargear anymore.

Hahaha don't you say. It was kinda oblivious they were special snowflakes.

Only bad thing about Assault Cannon Baal is that Overcharged Engines don't really do anything for it.

Otherwise I'm excited for mine. 20 shots (between Storm Bolter, TL AC and HB) seems nasty.

It is nasty. Its overcharged engines allow for some tactical maneuvers at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bremon wrote:
I was thinking if I use a Baal Pred to fight from midfield it could also escort a Razor or two

Or three. The razors depositing heavy flamer / combiflamer tacticals can put a lot of hurt on a lot of things very quicly, especially with baal pred support.

Bremon wrote:
with that many assault cannons do the sponson flamers make sense for A) protecting the transports from assault once they back, and B) close range threat deterrent in general? If there are 24-36 assault cannon shots I don't think I'll be missing the 6 from heavy bolters, but I most of what I've read thus far in 8th has been pretty negative towards all types of flamers. Any thoughts?

This edition, flamers of all kinds are expensive for what they do. Bear in mind, they're more expensive than HBs. So your choice is 6 shots at 36" range or less (3 hits if you move, 4 if you're still), or 2d6 auto-hits at 8" or less (~7 average hits). So the heavy flamers have more potential hits than the HBs and do more damage on average-- especially on overwatch-- at the cost of less effectiveness at normal shooting due to range issues.

They're not bad mind you. But consider how you want to use them and what the local meta is first.

I'd love a Strategem where (similar to WS Bikes) Blood Angels can advance and still fire weapons (extra bonus if it's Heavy weapons as if you didn't move but I'll just take advance and shoot).

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

Hah, Melissia, I feel like people often forget that Blood Angels are a Codex Compliant Chapter, that happens to have a few unique units.

GW disagrees, we cannot use stratagems, warlord abilities, etc., from the codex space marines.

And the baal pred is way to expensive.

p5freak wrote:

GW disagrees

They're the ones that said BA are codex compliant. The fact that we don't have a book yet means nothing on that topic, and you're being disingenuous to suggest such.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Only bad thing about Assault Cannon Baal is that Overcharged Engines don't really do anything for it.

Otherwise I'm excited for mine. 20 shots (between Storm Bolter, TL AC and HB) seems nasty.

Overcharged Engines don't seem especially beneficial for the flamer options either; it gets them in range quicker but if they advance into range they still can't do anything until overwatch in the enemy turn.

 Melissia wrote:
It is nasty. Its overcharged engines allow for some tactical maneuvers at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bremon wrote:
I was thinking if I use a Baal Pred to fight from midfield it could also escort a Razor or two

Or three. The razors depositing heavy flamer / combiflamer tacticals can put a lot of hurt on a lot of things very quicly, especially with baal pred support.

Bremon wrote:
with that many assault cannons do the sponson flamers make sense for A) protecting the transports from assault once they back, and B) close range threat deterrent in general? If there are 24-36 assault cannon shots I don't think I'll be missing the 6 from heavy bolters, but I most of what I've read thus far in 8th has been pretty negative towards all types of flamers. Any thoughts?

This edition, flamers of all kinds are expensive for what they do. Bear in mind, they're more expensive than HBs. So your choice is 6 shots at 36" range or less (3 hits if you move, 4 if you're still), or 2d6 auto-hits at 8" or less (~7 average hits). So the heavy flamers have more potential hits than the HBs and do more damage on average-- especially on overwatch-- at the cost of less effectiveness at normal shooting due to range issues.

They're not bad mind you. But consider how you want to use them and what the local meta is first.

True, the cost of flamers does surprise me in some instances; they seem quite inflexible compared to often cheaper alternatives that put out more consistent hurt over the course of a game. I do like the idea of mechanized BA with a Razor rush. Even still, sponson heavy flamers are as far as I'd commit I think; the flamestorm cannon as the turret armament basically turns the tank into a small deterrent bubble. It could work, but is pricy for that purpose. Maybe I'll magnetize or proxy it before committing.

 Frozocrone wrote:
I'd love a Strategem where (similar to WS Bikes) Blood Angels can advance and still fire weapons (extra bonus if it's Heavy weapons as if you didn't move but I'll just take advance and shoot).

This would be cool, I have high hopes for the codex but worry GW doesn't know what to do with BA.

p5freak wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

Hah, Melissia, I feel like people often forget that Blood Angels are a Codex Compliant Chapter, that happens to have a few unique units.

GW disagrees, we cannot use stratagems, warlord abilities, etc., from the codex space marines.

And the baal pred is way to expensive.

Maybe the way to be the most competitive right now is to play vanilla; Blood Ravens or Red Ultras, but the rule of cool has its place and sometimes things like Baal Preds are too cool not to use.

Bremon wrote:

p5freak wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

Hah, Melissia, I feel like people often forget that Blood Angels are a Codex Compliant Chapter, that happens to have a few unique units.

GW disagrees, we cannot use stratagems, warlord abilities, etc., from the codex space marines.

And the baal pred is way to expensive.

Maybe the way to be the most competitive right now is to play vanilla; Blood Ravens or Red Ultras, but the rule of cool has its place and sometimes things like Baal Preds are too cool not to use.

Yeah, even if it would be more ideal to run them as Ultramarines or one of their many successors, I can't do it. Would rather lose using my army as I want, then try and cheese a win.

I have to mix and match my detachments, because I include an Lieutenant from the main book. But I sure as hell want a baal pred or two...

All the pure crunchers claim that assault cannon razorbacks are better than Baal preds, but I think that they are moving more often, and are more likely to be assaulted, which makes them far less killy. Just my observations.

Also, a pair of Baals are more likely to stay together and suck up sweet, sweet aura buffs than razorbacks that have to drive to potentially different objectives.

Martel732 wrote:
All the pure crunchers claim that assault cannon razorbacks are better than Baal preds, but I think that they are moving more often, and are more likely to be assaulted, which makes them far less killy. Just my observations.

Also, a pair of Baals are more likely to stay together and suck up sweet, sweet aura buffs than razorbacks that have to drive to potentially different objectives.

That's because you presuppose they use razorbacks like transport and not like cheaper baals wich they are. So all your points are invalid. The only thing we could advance for AC baal is access to HB sponsons.

So, how are you getting your units in such a list to objectives alive? A razorback is a transport. It should be moving forward, or at least towards an objective. If it's not, your opponent is probably advancing their game faster than you. Paying 100 pts for a single twin assault cannon doesn't cut it, imo.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Anyone thinking that we will get access to Lieutenants in the new Blood Angesl codex?

I hope so. An Lt and Chaplain would make our sanguard/dc way better.

Martel: Christ, man, get a hold of yourself.

Seriously Melissia, just put him on ignore. I did over a year ago and have been so much happier. The occasional tactical comment is drowned out by the constant negativity and nay-saying so it's easier to block him and pretend he doesn't exist any more.

I've got an idea for a Lieutenant, but not sure yet on it. Will have to see if we are going to get them in the new codex (I can't see why we wouldn't) before I commit to building one and painting it up.

I'd certainly run one with my Death Company though for sure, or along side some eventual Sanguinary Guard.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Did the same. Not going to get my blood pressure up over a game with plastic soldiers.

What are the best CC units BA have now? Are Death Company good anymore? I looked at them in the index and wan't impressed but I've never seen them in action for 8th.

DC is the best we have to offer right now. As it looks like our codex will be released in december.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:
@Gunsmith Looks like an Ultrasmurfs list.

No it doesn't. It looks like a goddamned BA list.

Hah, Melissia, I feel like people often forget that Blood Angels are a Codex Compliant Chapter, that happens to have a few unique units. Instead, people seem to think that the only way to play Blood Angels is nothing but Jump Packs, Death Company and Baal Predators. Wrong.

Plus, I play a Successor Chapter (Blood Knights), which the High Lords of Terra have decreed to be renegade. It would only make sense that we no longer have access to a lot of the unique and rare wargear anymore.

Having played with the 3.5 paper BA codex, I disagree with both of you. Your list did not have the required Death Company, which was the hallmark of BAs prior to the 5th ed push for jumppacks. You also don't Terminators, which is what the Archangel Company was originally formed around.v It no includes Jump units and terms, but we're talking old school. Our current book also doesn't have overcharged engine on anything except the Baal predator (Which for some reason doesn't have all assault weapons like it should)

As I was saying it looks like a smurf army because you don't even include the old school BA army key concepts, let alone the newer ones they've added to give the army a different flavor. Yes they are codex compliant, but they don't follow it rigidly, as they speak of often in the lore and vastly undersized tactical squads and companies always having full assault squads due to the natural tendency of BA to engage in close combat. The funniest thing is that you are playing Knights of Blood and known extra crazy successor chapter that would have more death company then most. You would also be much less likely to adhere rigidly to the codex astartes due to you crazy and renegade nature. I decided to due a little research as well, did you know they were known to be an almost entirely dedicate assault chapter. A whole chapter of assault marines basically.

It's fine if you want to make up your own lore for your custom chapter, but please don't try to use the idea that BA are a codex compliant chapter as a reason they should look just like an Ultramarine army. They are unique and different from the C:SM chapters, and my comment still stands, your list does not look like a proper BA army.

 Coyote81 wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:
@Gunsmith Looks like an Ultrasmurfs list.

No it doesn't. It looks like a goddamned BA list.

Hah, Melissia, I feel like people often forget that Blood Angels are a Codex Compliant Chapter, that happens to have a few unique units. Instead, people seem to think that the only way to play Blood Angels is nothing but Jump Packs, Death Company and Baal Predators. Wrong.

Plus, I play a Successor Chapter (Blood Knights), which the High Lords of Terra have decreed to be renegade. It would only make sense that we no longer have access to a lot of the unique and rare wargear anymore.

Having played with the 3.5 paper BA codex, I disagree with both of you. Your list did not have the required Death Company, which was the hallmark of BAs prior to the 5th ed push for jumppacks. You also don't Terminators, which is what the Archangel Company was originally formed around.v It no includes Jump units and terms, but we're talking old school. Our current book also doesn't have overcharged engine on anything except the Baal predator (Which for some reason doesn't have all assault weapons like it should)

As I was saying it looks like a smurf army because you don't even include the old school BA army key concepts, let alone the newer ones they've added to give the army a different flavor. Yes they are codex compliant, but they don't follow it rigidly, as they speak of often in the lore and vastly undersized tactical squads and companies always having full assault squads due to the natural tendency of BA to engage in close combat. The funniest thing is that you are playing Knights of Blood and known extra crazy successor chapter that would have more death company then most. You would also be much less likely to adhere rigidly to the codex astartes due to you crazy and renegade nature. I decided to due a little research as well, did you know they were known to be an almost entirely dedicate assault chapter. A whole chapter of assault marines basically.

It's fine if you want to make up your own lore for your custom chapter, but please don't try to use the idea that BA are a codex compliant chapter as a reason they should look just like an Ultramarine army. They are unique and different from the C:SM chapters, and my comment still stands, your list does not look like a proper BA army.

Sure, I used that Codex too for a while, and while I don't miss having to roll to see if a model joins the Death Company squad, but even back in 3rd, besides a Baal Predator, Death Company and some red paint, there was pretty much no way to distinguish Blood Angels from any other loyalist power armored army.

I did research on the Blood Knights too, and would like to know where you got your info. Because Lexicanum has nothing like what you are talking about from what I remember. The reason I picked them is because there was so little info on them, besides they have been decreed Renegade for a large amount of excess on a campaign. And just because a Chapter might have more Death Company then another, doesn't mean that they will be on EVERY battlefield. They could be sent off elsewhere to go die while the rest of the Company handles a more important task.

And yes, the Blood Knights do seem to be a bit more aggressive then your standard BA, is EVERY Blood Knight going to be a frothing at the mouth madman strapped to a rocket pack at all times? No, that would be pants on head stupid to think that. I also don't remember reading about them being all crazed, all the time... that would be a Khorne army (or that other BA Successor Chapter who has made a pact with a Daemon to ward off the Red Thirst). They still come to the aid of other Imperial worlds (Baal), and generally stay away from other Imperial forces to avoid butchering them as well. Oh wait, and the only vehicles they generlly use are transports to close with the enemy? Huh, guess what, that's all I use for vehicles as well. My army is aggressive though, using the Inferno Pistols to full effect in close range while pushing forwards, burning Xenos scum with Hand Flamers and Flamers, while the Assault Marines (which are pretty garbage, but it didn't seem right to not use them) charge in supported by a Sanguinary Priest and Chaplain. Just because I am not using many of the BA unique units or equipment does not make this army any less a BA army. Is a Salamanders army that doesn't take Vulkan any less a Salamanders army? Sorry I have offended you, and what you have decreed to be Blood Angels, but in all honesty I don't care.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:
@Gunsmith Looks like an Ultrasmurfs list.

No it doesn't. It looks like a goddamned BA list.

Hah, Melissia, I feel like people often forget that Blood Angels are a Codex Compliant Chapter, that happens to have a few unique units. Instead, people seem to think that the only way to play Blood Angels is nothing but Jump Packs, Death Company and Baal Predators. Wrong.

Plus, I play a Successor Chapter (Blood Knights), which the High Lords of Terra have decreed to be renegade. It would only make sense that we no longer have access to a lot of the unique and rare wargear anymore.

Having played with the 3.5 paper BA codex, I disagree with both of you. Your list did not have the required Death Company, which was the hallmark of BAs prior to the 5th ed push for jumppacks. You also don't Terminators, which is what the Archangel Company was originally formed around.v It no includes Jump units and terms, but we're talking old school. Our current book also doesn't have overcharged engine on anything except the Baal predator (Which for some reason doesn't have all assault weapons like it should)

As I was saying it looks like a smurf army because you don't even include the old school BA army key concepts, let alone the newer ones they've added to give the army a different flavor. Yes they are codex compliant, but they don't follow it rigidly, as they speak of often in the lore and vastly undersized tactical squads and companies always having full assault squads due to the natural tendency of BA to engage in close combat. The funniest thing is that you are playing Knights of Blood and known extra crazy successor chapter that would have more death company then most. You would also be much less likely to adhere rigidly to the codex astartes due to you crazy and renegade nature. I decided to due a little research as well, did you know they were known to be an almost entirely dedicate assault chapter. A whole chapter of assault marines basically.

It's fine if you want to make up your own lore for your custom chapter, but please don't try to use the idea that BA are a codex compliant chapter as a reason they should look just like an Ultramarine army. They are unique and different from the C:SM chapters, and my comment still stands, your list does not look like a proper BA army.

Sure, I used that Codex too for a while, and while I don't miss having to roll to see if a model joins the Death Company squad, but even back in 3rd, besides a Baal Predator, Death Company and some red paint, there was pretty much no way to distinguish Blood Angels from any other loyalist power armored army.

I did research on the Blood Knights too, and would like to know where you got your info. Because Lexicanum has nothing like what you are talking about from what I remember. The reason I picked them is because there was so little info on them, besides they have been decreed Renegade for a large amount of excess on a campaign. And just because a Chapter might have more Death Company then another, doesn't mean that they will be on EVERY battlefield. They could be sent off elsewhere to go die while the rest of the Company handles a more important task.

And yes, the Blood Knights do seem to be a bit more aggressive then your standard BA, is EVERY Blood Knight going to be a frothing at the mouth madman strapped to a rocket pack at all times? No, that would be pants on head stupid to think that. I also don't remember reading about them being all crazed, all the time... that would be a Khorne army (or that other BA Successor Chapter who has made a pact with a Daemon to ward off the Red Thirst). They still come to the aid of other Imperial worlds (Baal), and generally stay away from other Imperial forces to avoid butchering them as well. Oh wait, and the only vehicles they generlly use are transports to close with the enemy? Huh, guess what, that's all I use for vehicles as well. My army is aggressive though, using the Inferno Pistols to full effect in close range while pushing forwards, burning Xenos scum with Hand Flamers and Flamers, while the Assault Marines (which are pretty garbage, but it didn't seem right to not use them) charge in supported by a Sanguinary Priest and Chaplain. Just because I am not using many of the BA unique units or equipment does not make this army any less a BA army. Is a Salamanders army that doesn't take Vulkan any less a Salamanders army? Sorry I have offended you, and what you have decreed to be Blood Angels, but in all honesty I don't care.

FYI http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Knights_of_Blood

And yes every space marine chapter could all play exactly the same (at least the codex compliant ones) but they have distinct flavors, urges, weaknesses. Playing a specific army (If you claim to be playing them thematically, and somewhat lore-accurately) requires you to play toward those strengths and weaknesses. So play Salamanders without flamers or melta, is something they could indeed do, it's very inaccurately for theme, and just dumb for not playing to their strengths.

I just commented it wasn't very BA-like, you can play them that way, it's fine, I was only offended when you tried to act like your way is the way BA truly are, even though history and lore say otherwise.

Martel732 wrote:
So, how are you getting your units in such a list to objectives alive? A razorback is a transport. It should be moving forward, or at least towards an objective. If it's not, your opponent is probably advancing their game faster than you. Paying 100 pts for a single twin assault cannon doesn't cut it, imo.

Tell me the price of a 4 HB devastator and how many shots they have. Not gonna argue all the way to the stars, it's fact that razorback AC is absurdly cost efficient.

PandatheWarrior wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So, how are you getting your units in such a list to objectives alive? A razorback is a transport. It should be moving forward, or at least towards an objective. If it's not, your opponent is probably advancing their game faster than you. Paying 100 pts for a single twin assault cannon doesn't cut it, imo.

Tell me the price of a 4 HB devastator and how many shots they have. Not gonna argue all the way to the stars, it's fact that razorback AC is absurdly cost efficient.

I agree, it's really good, it's not just 100pts for a Twin AC. It's 100pts for a crazy survivable body as well.

 Coyote81 wrote:

PandatheWarrior wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So, how are you getting your units in such a list to objectives alive? A razorback is a transport. It should be moving forward, or at least towards an objective. If it's not, your opponent is probably advancing their game faster than you. Paying 100 pts for a single twin assault cannon doesn't cut it, imo.

Tell me the price of a 4 HB devastator and how many shots they have. Not gonna argue all the way to the stars, it's fact that razorback AC is absurdly cost efficient.

I agree, it's really good, it's not just 100pts for a Twin AC. It's 100pts for a crazy survivable body as well.

Blood Angels do not lack for mobility so even if you do end up using your RBs as gun platforms rather than transports, that is not really a hindrance to your list.

Besides, an enemy advancing towards Objectives is less likely to be getting cover saves than if it is dug-in and will moving into range of your RBs meaning you are less likely to need to move with the attendant -1 to Hit. The enemy advancing onto objectives faster than you is only a problem if they can stay alive once they get there and cheap, durable TAC RBs make that job harder.

 Coyote81 wrote:
Having played with the 3.5 paper BA codex, I disagree with both of you. Your list did not have the required Death Company

Ah, so all BA lists HAVE to have death company, no matter what, and any BA lists that doesn't have death company isn't a BA list no matter what else you include?

Yawn.

Actually, the list given has plenty of BA-specific things.

 Melissia wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:
Having played with the 3.5 paper BA codex, I disagree with both of you. Your list did not have the required Death Company

Ah, so all BA lists HAVE to have death company, no matter what, and any BA lists that doesn't have death company isn't a BA list no matter what else you include?

Yawn.

Actually, the list given has plenty of BA-specific things.

I was referring to the 3.5 codex, when yes you were required to have Death Company, it was random, on a 6 you lost a member of your unit and it joined death company. You might get a really big DC or small, but it was a required roll. I'm not saying you have to have it now, but having nothing that represents the BA uniqueness is really not a BA army is it?