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Diabolic strength on 40 khorne pistol cultists? I'll take that.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Zid wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, chaos kind of need it... you have imperial soup with Castellan, blood angel smash captains, and stuff. What do we have against those? (And don't say renegade Castellans because mine got taken out in one round of shooting by an IK castellan alone even with ion shields raised.)

Lascannon marines were usually placed in cover anyway, so I don't think that much has changed for those guys. You want that +1 cover save every turn, not just turn 1. Its the bubble wrap, and cult marines that want to be mobile and push up the board (berserkers, noise marines, rubrics and plague marines.) All these got a buff even if they start second due to the strategem. It might even make sense use CSM to bubble wrap instead of cultists now because 2+ save is so good. Although even cultists now get a 5+ save for going second which is nifty.

Stuff like Hellbrutes and vehicles also get a buff for going second. More survivable now.

Imperial soup is going to look a lot different with the CP nerf; especially with Smash Captains being less playable (they got hit by a CP and fly nerf), I think we are gonna see Thunderwolf Lords take their place. I dunno, its a brave new world

Thunderwolf lords are even less mobile. They can't even jump onto a crate to get things. They also cost much more and hit softer. Don't expect to see less smash captains. He took a slight hit along with everything else. The CP "nerf" is a joke too, that NOVA list literally never even needed all it's CP's, it finished some games with more I heard. All that army needs is 1-2 turns powered up to table or at least cripple the other guy, which it still easily does. While the Smash captain has less reach in assault, it's a double edged sword because he was only there for the mirror match really, now the screen on that Castellan blocks everything, and nothing gets near it until turn 2 earliest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blood reaper wrote:
The new Alpha Legion stratagem is so unbelievably gak compared to the old one. I get that being charged by 20+ Bezrkers on turn 1 was horrible to deal with, as were 40 man blobs of Chaos cultists, but it'd of been much smarter to limit the number of models you could infiltrate. At least the army wide trait is still decent, even if it isn't really fluffy in the slightest.

Anyone that thought any of those abilities would last is being disingenuous. I mean, it is referred to as cheat-filtrate. It was only a matter of time until that disappeared. It's MUCH better for the overall health of the game. The other guy should always have a turn to react. Funny thing is, you can still easily get a turn 1 assault. You scout 9" inside a tank, get out 3" and move another 6" first turn, that is only 6" from their deployment line before declaring a charge. If you warp time your at their deployment zone. Remember, nobody is dropping in turn 1, including their deployment zone, and no one else including GSC can just start the game on your doorstep.

I mean its not like the inflitrate lists were winning anything anyways. I'll agree its much better for the health of the gunline meta though. Gosh forbid i can get in tge face of your guns turn 1. I mean then how would you get to shoot me first?

On the issue of getting a turn to react. Sure but if i go second against a gunline army how am I supposed to be reacting to their firepower? The new 2 cp strat? Good thing it doesn't help my daemons at all. Where is my turn to react against getting shot to death?

Dactylartha wrote:
Diabolic strength on 40 khorne pistol cultists? I'll take that.

Diabolic Strength only affects a single model, so it wouldn't do jack to those cultists. It's pretty sweet on a Lord or Prince though.

Best on a Khorne LoS though.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:
Diabolic strength on 40 khorne pistol cultists? I'll take that.

Diabolic Strength only affects a single model, so it wouldn't do jack to those cultists. It's pretty sweet on a Lord or Prince though.

Totally get that, my comment was replying to a "what if" Diabolic Strength affected a whole unit.

I like it as a backup of things went wrong, familiar into it with my termie sorcerer with stave.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Hmm. Having a predator survive T1 with 1W after passing one more save does open up a Killshot. The +1W on the damage is nice, but wounding 99% of big targets on a 2+ is definitely worth 1CP, even if one of the three tanks is running on fumes. Up to now, it’s been something of a fire magnet that only pays out if you get first turn. ...I think if I were facing this and given first turn, I’d focus fire on taking a Pred out? So, I’d expect your payoff to usually be in the form of an extra Helbrute surviving T1?

Yeah, I never use killshot. Opponents usually take out a Laspred first turn. They only go after a Helbrute when they realize they don't have enough guns to finish the job on the laspreds. But now that's a possibility...

 lindsay40k wrote:
How does the FAQ mean that melee opponents will need to take an extra turn to reach you? If anything, relinquishing first turn whenever it’s your call means that they’ll get an advance before you start shooting. And their own heavy, non-invulnerable stuff will take 20%-33% less damage from your lascannon gauntlet. Are you usually getting rushed at by AL, RG, Stygies?

That's one way to look at it. It might help to understand the dynamics of the list.

My big concern is deep strikes. The Laspreds / Helbrutes / CSMs need to be shooting from behind Cultist screens, not fighting.

Since deep strikes can't happen until turn 2, those units - the ones that matter - are not getting charged those 2 turns. This matters because my opponent's ranged threats are severely diminished after turn 1 and usually gone by turn 2. I sometimes get this 'extra' turn, where I can shoot but my opponent can't shoot back with anything that matters.

The likelihood of this extra turn happening is going up. No one will be deep striking just inside their half of the board turn 1 and charging turn 2. This is the kind of rush I face most often and GW just made go away until later in the game.

 lindsay40k wrote:
On a more general note, I think we can expect AP creep in the meta, especially in bigger games where the 2CP outlay scales really efficiently. This hits autocannons hard as a weapon that scares tough infantry and annoys heavy stuff. Missile launchers look even less effective than Las/HB blend.

Hmm. With universal cover, how do sixteen missiles fare against nidzilla or green tide, relative to eight lascannons + eight HB?

I'm a big believer in massed lascannons versus hordes. 20 shots into a Boyz mob is 20 dead Orks. It might not be points-efficient, but I'd love to know how that compares with the mathhammer for other options.

The major variant I play with this list is swapping out the Laspreds with Scorpiuses. I'm pretty sure these sitting still + Abaddon is the ideal anti-horde loadout for Chaos.

 lindsay40k wrote:
It’s possible that Heldrakes might not be totally nerfed by this. Charging on T1 gets around the entire enemy army’s save improving. And the fact of having one does exert pressure on the opponent’s deployment, in ways that FO can’t match (other than Warptimed Raptors, I suppose). Aaaand, they can benefit from cover, even if they are a Rhino with +2W... I dunno. Still probably gimmick tier, now.

I would not discount using Heldrakes for harassing flyers. I know they don't dish a massive number of wounds, but I've found there's a lot of value in just taking off a few early-game. Makes shooting it down easier later on.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
How does the FAQ mean that melee opponents will need to take an extra turn to reach you? If anything, relinquishing first turn whenever it’s your call means that they’ll get an advance before you start shooting. And their own heavy, non-invulnerable stuff will take 20%-33% less damage from your lascannon gauntlet. Are you usually getting rushed at by AL, RG, Stygies?

That's one way to look at it. It might help to understand the dynamics of the list.

My big concern is deep strikes. The Laspreds / Helbrutes / CSMs need to be shooting from behind Cultist screens, not fighting.

Since deep strikes can't happen until turn 2, those units - the ones that matter - are not getting charged those 2 turns. This matters because my opponent's ranged threats are severely diminished after turn 1 and usually gone by turn 2. I sometimes get this 'extra' turn, where I can shoot but my opponent can't shoot back with anything that matters.

The likelihood of this extra turn happening is going up. No one will be deep striking just inside their half of the board turn 1 and charging turn 2. This is the kind of rush I face most often and GW just made go away until later in the game.

Aha, I’ve spotted where our misunderstanding’s arose:

first big FAQ wrote:any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)

As of April, whoever’s been dropping units halfway towards you on the first turn has been seriously overstepping the rules

 techsoldaten wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Hmm. With universal cover, how do sixteen missiles fare against nidzilla or green tide, relative to eight lascannons + eight HB?

I'm a big believer in massed lascannons versus hordes. 20 shots into a Boyz mob is 20 dead Orks. It might not be points-efficient, but I'd love to know how that compares with the mathhammer for other options.

Do you know what? I don’t even *care* any more how efficient this is, after reading that. That is some top overkill philosophy that’d make Megatron proud, and if your list’s working against pure horde, more power to it

 lindsay40k wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Hmm. With universal cover, how do sixteen missiles fare against nidzilla or green tide, relative to eight lascannons + eight HB?

I'm a big believer in massed lascannons versus hordes. 20 shots into a Boyz mob is 20 dead Orks. It might not be points-efficient, but I'd love to know how that compares with the mathhammer for other options.

Do you know what? I don’t even *care* any more how efficient this is, after reading that. That is some top overkill philosophy that’d make Megatron proud, and if your list’s working against pure horde, more power to it

What a nice way to put it.

Fighting hordes with a Chaos gunline is mostly an exercise in being patient while your opponent removes many models each turn.

This may change when the Codex hits - but Ork hordes are fairly predictable. Wipe out the Lootas then selectively target units to break up the weight of numbers. When they do get there, Cultist screens will take any charges and Helbrutes / DPs / Abaddon / CSM bolters will clean up after the Cultists fall back. Even if your opponent invests heavily in Stormboys, the new rules for charges mean no one is jumping screens. And Grot gunners are a joke.

While this doesn't work exactly the same way against Tyranids, the idea is similar. Flyrants can be ignored while you wipe out Genestealers / Hive Guards / other Big Bugs. Tyranid lists just don't have enough volume of AV to seriously threaten a firebase and their elite melee troops go down easily to high strength AP negative weapons. Spreading out the big guns across a Chaos gunline means tricks like the Horror have minimal impact.

Tau and Drukari present much more of a challenge, especially when they outrange you, spam drones, or put half their points in flyers. Nothing worse than wasting all your lascannon shots only to take a couple wounds off something you can't target very well.

Oh, and PS, regarding the deployment zone thing. There's times it's to your advantage to allow opponents to cheat. That's a common misunderstanding I never felt the need to correct.

Ive used Diabolic Strength on a Berzerker Captain with power fist before 12 attacks at 14 strength seems pretty cash money to me. Wound all those t7 tanks on a 2!

 vaklor4 wrote:
Ive used Diabolic Strength on a Berzerker Captain with power fist before 12 attacks at 14 strength seems pretty cash money to me. Wound all those t7 tanks on a 2!

I was pondering this, actually. Been working on my own zerks and figured I’d keep their champ in mind as an option when I’m going psyker heavy. It certainly seems high yielding. More so if you’ve got DA/Prescience. Makes the unit even more frightening to try to finish off with a charge, as well...

I guess you get 12A from the Khorne Stratagem?

 lindsay40k wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Ive used Diabolic Strength on a Berzerker Captain with power fist before 12 attacks at 14 strength seems pretty cash money to me. Wound all those t7 tanks on a 2!

I was pondering this, actually. Been working on my own zerks and figured I’d keep their champ in mind as an option when I’m going psyker heavy. It certainly seems high yielding. More so if you’ve got DA/Prescience. Makes the unit even more frightening to try to finish off with a charge, as well...

I guess you get 12A from the Khorne Stratagem?

3 attacks from being a captain, +1 from charging, +1 from diabolic...Okay my math was a LITTLE off 10 attacks total. 15 with the Khorne strat.

+1A from charging? That applies to Khornate Daemons of Chaos, but not Berzerkers...

 lindsay40k wrote:
+1A from charging? That applies to Khornate Daemons of Chaos, but not Berzerkers...

Assuming world eaters?

 lindsay40k wrote:
+1A from charging? That applies to Khornate Daemons of Chaos, but not Berzerkers...

WE legion trait maybee?

Edit: i belive i got ninjaed.

WE legion trait, sorry I just defaulted to thinking you meant WE when you mentioned Berzerkers. Because glory to Khorne, etc. etc.

Considering a Nurgle detachment, using a combination of Death Guard and Nurgle Daemons. I know this will lose the death guard trait, which is why I'm wondering if this is feasible or if it would be too big of a loss.

However before I even get that far, I've realised that some units (such as Obliterators) only get Nurgle as a keyword, and not a faction keyword... so I guess I can't put them in a Nurgle detachment?


Units I'm considering:

DG Daemon Prince
Blightlord Terminators
Nurglings
Plague Drones
Obliterators
Maulerfiend.

They don't get DAEMON faction, but their <Mark of Chaos> becomes NURGLE, a faction keyword.

Niiru wrote:
Considering a Nurgle detachment, using a combination of Death Guard and Nurgle Daemons. I know this will lose the death guard trait, which is why I'm wondering if this is feasible or if it would be too big of a loss.

However before I even get that far, I've realised that some units (such as Obliterators) only get Nurgle as a keyword, and not a faction keyword... so I guess I can't put them in a Nurgle detachment?


Units I'm considering:

DG Daemon Prince
Blightlord Terminators
Nurglings
Plague Drones
Obliterators
Maulerfiend.

I'd say it's nearly always worth it to split detachments, especially with Nurgle Daemons, where the characters are pretty cheap and awesome. Heralds of nurgle won me games, they are incredibly versatile and a nice force multiplier. They can fight, they can cast, they give everyone +1S - autotake. And with Nurglings and/or Plaguebearers you can fill a battaillon pretty easily.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Considering a Nurgle detachment, using a combination of Death Guard and Nurgle Daemons. I know this will lose the death guard trait, which is why I'm wondering if this is feasible or if it would be too big of a loss.

However before I even get that far, I've realised that some units (such as Obliterators) only get Nurgle as a keyword, and not a faction keyword... so I guess I can't put them in a Nurgle detachment?


Units I'm considering:

DG Daemon Prince
Blightlord Terminators
Nurglings
Plague Drones
Obliterators
Maulerfiend.

I'd say it's nearly always worth it to split detachments, especially with Nurgle Daemons, where the characters are pretty cheap and awesome. Heralds of nurgle won me games, they are incredibly versatile and a nice force multiplier. They can fight, they can cast, they give everyone +1S - autotake. And with Nurglings and/or Plaguebearers you can fill a battaillon pretty easily.

I think it depends on the Detachment, and the units you are taking, and the rest of your army.

If you don’t already have a DG or CDoN (or CSM) Detachment: would the units you’re taking suffer for want of unlocking their Stratagems? (For instance: a Maulerfiend wants to have unlocked Daemonforge to really do damage.)

Do the units you are taking really benefit from their faction traits? (For instance: a single unit of Nurglings does not really care one way or another for Locus of Virulence. A DG Daemon Prince does not care about longer rapid fire, but it might very much want to be able to advance and squirt it’s Plague Spewer. It may well also really like to be able to borrow a Locus of Virulence. Some Obliterators might also want to be able to use that, and also their Iron Warriors trait.)

Are you taking so many units that it would not take much musical chairs to just take two detachments anyway? Their individual gains from traits and strats might be minor, but if there’s nine or so units then a split may well be worth it.

Of course, an organic ‘Tale of Gamers’ gradual addition of Nurgle stuff can be supported really well by the current army selection rules. Get the DG DP and a Nurglings unit as a Patrol, add Obliterators and Maulerfiend until you’ve got a Spearhead, get a Sorcerer to calve it off as a CSM Detachment and Nurgle Patrol, start getting Blightlords and a couple of DG support characters to make a Vanguard...

Please correct me If i am wrong, but doesnt the battlebrothers rule keep you from using chaos demons units and csm/dg units in the same detatchment? after all the only shared faction keyword is chaos...

 Bird of prey wrote:
Please correct me If i am wrong, but doesnt the battlebrothers rule keep you from using chaos demons units and csm/dg units in the same detatchment? after all the only shared faction keyword is chaos...

As long as you're mixing the right daemons with the right legion you can put them together. For example, World Eaters and Khorne Daemons both have the <Khorne> keyword, so they can be mixed. The same would apply to say, Black Legion marines that you decided all have the Mark of <Slaanesh> and Slaanesh Daemons.

I didnt know, that the marks could pass as faction keywords. Thank you for letting me know.

but can you point me at the ruleing where it said so?

The Mark of Chaos is in the faction keywords slot, so it's a faction keyword. There'd have to be a rule saying that isn't the case because by RAW it definitely works.

I thought it was <Mark of Chaos> for CSM and <Allegiance> for Daemons, making them different keywords?

The keyword isn't actually <Mark of Chaos>, it's <Tzeentch>, <Nurgle>, etc. It's similar to how you can only use Miasma of Pestilence once even if you have it on a Nurgle Daemon psyker and a Death Guard psyker because the same name means they're the same thing.

 vaklor4 wrote:
WE legion trait, sorry I just defaulted to thinking you meant WE when you mentioned Berzerkers. Because glory to Khorne, etc. etc.

Can you make an argument that ALL berserkers should have the Legion keyword as World Eaters?

World Eaters aren't really an organised Legion now, split into loads of warbands - but they can probably all trace their beginnings back to WE.

Otherwise, what'd you put as a Legion keyword?

(as an aside, I guess you could have Black Legion Bersekers in the form of the Hounds of Abaddon as per the fluff).

RobS wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
WE legion trait, sorry I just defaulted to thinking you meant WE when you mentioned Berzerkers. Because glory to Khorne, etc. etc.

Can you make an argument that ALL berserkers should have the Legion keyword as World Eaters?

World Eaters aren't really an organised Legion now, split into loads of warbands - but they can probably all trace their beginnings back to WE.

Otherwise, what'd you put as a Legion keyword?

(as an aside, I guess you could have Black Legion Bersekers in the form of the Hounds of Abaddon as per the fluff).

Anyone who’s far gone enough can be a Berzerker. Original IW list allowed them as a breacher type squad. You could have some corrupted Blood Angels or Novamarines for Renegade Chapters zerks. The thing that distinguishes zerks that were initiated into the WE is they have the Butcher’s Nails. But any of the polytheists can have a unit of choppy guys that’s gone over the edge.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The keyword isn't actually <Mark of Chaos>, it's <Tzeentch>, <Nurgle>, etc. It's similar to how you can only use Miasma of Pestilence once even if you have it on a Nurgle Daemon psyker and a Death Guard psyker because the same name means they're the same thing.

Whilst this is what is played literally everywhere I've come across and I agree that it's RAI, I think that (RAW) it's more akin to <REGIMENT> vs <CHAPTER> which you would not be allowed to have in the same detachment even if they had the same name. The issue then is that there are Daemon units in the Death Guard and Thousand Sons codexes, of which neither book has any mention of <ALLEGIANCE OF CHAOS> (thus there are Daemon unit data sheets with a mark of chaos and not an allegiance). This was a discussion that came up when the first Big FAQ was released and I don't believe a consensus was reached on RAW, however RAI, or at least the way it is played everywhere that I know of is that <NURGLE> (or any other god) can be your keyword regardless of whether or not it's a mark or allegiance.

 techsoldaten wrote:
This may change when the Codex hits - but Ork hordes are fairly predictable. Wipe out the Lootas then selectively target units to break up the weight of numbers. When they do get there, Cultist screens will take any charges and Helbrutes / DPs / Abaddon / CSM bolters will clean up after the Cultists fall back. Even if your opponent invests heavily in Stormboys, the new rules for charges mean no one is jumping screens. And Grot gunners are a joke.

What lootas? Only orks who want to lose take lootas.

Anyway Q isn't "can you shoot orks". You can. Question is can you clear enough orks fast enough that you can get out of your DZ safely to get objectives before orks get enough vp's. Funny thing is orks don't actually plan to get into h2h against gunlines. It's simply not possible. They simply aim to flood the board with ~300 models aiming to keep gunline in DZ long enough to rack up objectives and then survive with some models on board.

H2h? Orks aren't planning to get there.

 lindsay40k wrote:

RobS wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
WE legion trait, sorry I just defaulted to thinking you meant WE when you mentioned Berzerkers. Because glory to Khorne, etc. etc.

Can you make an argument that ALL berserkers should have the Legion keyword as World Eaters?

World Eaters aren't really an organised Legion now, split into loads of warbands - but they can probably all trace their beginnings back to WE.

Otherwise, what'd you put as a Legion keyword?

(as an aside, I guess you could have Black Legion Bersekers in the form of the Hounds of Abaddon as per the fluff).

Anyone who’s far gone enough can be a Berzerker. Original IW list allowed them as a breacher type squad. You could have some corrupted Blood Angels or Novamarines for Renegade Chapters zerks. The thing that distinguishes zerks that were initiated into the WE is they have the Butcher’s Nails. But any of the polytheists can have a unit of choppy guys that’s gone over the edge.

Yeah, I suppose.

My army is totally devoted to Khorne so I think it's fine and fluffy to give them the WE keyword.

I'm going for the colour scheme of the warband Wrath which actually isn't described as being associated with any legion at all...but the formation of the warband is very 'World Eaters-ey' so I'm going to go with it.