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 lindsay40k wrote:
Friend, the post you’re quoting is from 191 pages ago and predates multiple publications and FAQs that make the information it was based on long out of date.

We're STILL on page 191.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Friend, the post you’re quoting is from 191 pages ago and predates multiple publications and FAQs that make the information it was based on long out of date.

We're STILL on page 191.

That response was so last page.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Friend, the post you’re quoting is from 191 pages ago and predates multiple publications and FAQs that make the information it was based on long out of date.

We're STILL on page 191.

Not sure if joke, but he did say '191 pages ago', because that post was the very first post in this thread. Very, very old. Necro at its finest.

And the reply was stupid too, as there are occasionally reasons to save points on a wingless Prince. Usually if you already have at least one flying one already and you are using the foot Prince as a backfield bully instead of a terminator lord or something (where the Prince is better in every way to a termilord.)

But Yeh usually it's always better to get wings. Glad we cleared that one up after 16 months.

I mean, the flying DP did lose one of its considerable edges with the FAQ. It's still better than wingless, but it FOR SURE closed the gap.

I was more referring to the fact of the Chaos Daemons DP not having 10W any more, as of like nearly a year ago now


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Buuuut I totally meant for this to happen #justasplanned

 TonyH122 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Friend, the post you’re quoting is from 191 pages ago and predates multiple publications and FAQs that make the information it was based on long out of date.

We're STILL on page 191.

That response was so last page.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Friend, the post you’re quoting is from 191 pages ago and predates multiple publications and FAQs that make the information it was based on long out of date.

That’s dedication to one’s argument. Spoken like someone who loves 10,000 year old Daemon worshipping Marines.

So, we have all heard the recent(ish) success of Blightlord Termis in a tournament, showing that while they're not amazing they're at least not a handicap on the table like most terminators.

Is there a place / loadout for a similarly performing Scarab Occult Terminator squad?

I know they lose out on the feel no pain, so they're less sturdy at default, but getting +1 to saves against 1-damage weapons means they end up with a 1+/4++ against small arms fire which isn't terrible.

On top of this, they get a psyker buff as standard. So Glamour giving the enemy -1 to hit against them, or even Weaver giving them a 4++ (or even a 3++ against 1-damage fire) might help out?

Playing against scarabs a few times I've been underwhelmed by their damage output. They scare me into not letting him drop on my backfield objective campers because they'll threaten my CSM or cultists, but for the points webway tzangor have deadly combo with the void beast and a spell or 2.

Scarabs are pretty annoying to get out of cover on an obj marker. Really annoying. My opponent learned to focus out my 2 dmg weapons early and I don't put objective markers in cover anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One of my regular opponents that is.

Dactylartha wrote:
Playing against scarabs a few times I've been underwhelmed by their damage output. They scare me into not letting him drop on my backfield objective campers because they'll threaten my CSM or cultists, but for the points webway tzangor have deadly combo with the void beast and a spell or 2.

Scarabs are pretty annoying to get out of cover on an obj marker. Really annoying. My opponent learned to focus out my 2 dmg weapons early and I don't put objective markers in cover anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One of my regular opponents that is.

Is that any different to Blightlords though? They seem to also be mostly "hard to kill" with little in the way of offensive powers

 techsoldaten wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Friend, the post you’re quoting is from 191 pages ago and predates multiple publications and FAQs that make the information it was based on long out of date.

That’s dedication to one’s argument. Spoken like someone who loves 10,000 year old Daemon worshipping Marines.

Yeah that was weird. When someone made that comment I went back to the page and that post WAS on there. Come today it wasn't. I haven't a clue how that occured not gonna lie.

Niiru wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:
Playing against scarabs a few times I've been underwhelmed by their damage output. They scare me into not letting him drop on my backfield objective campers because they'll threaten my CSM or cultists, but for the points webway tzangor have deadly combo with the void beast and a spell or 2.

Scarabs are pretty annoying to get out of cover on an obj marker. Really annoying. My opponent learned to focus out my 2 dmg weapons early and I don't put objective markers in cover anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One of my regular opponents that is.

Is that any different to Blightlords though? They seem to also be mostly "hard to kill" with little in the way of offensive powers

Blightlords do a lot more damage and are about as hard to kill. My DG friend's Blightlords are fairly easy to screen against thought, because of my 2 friends' lists, the 1KS guy brings more range and more DS attacks.

Dactylartha wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:
Playing against scarabs a few times I've been underwhelmed by their damage output. They scare me into not letting him drop on my backfield objective campers because they'll threaten my CSM or cultists, but for the points webway tzangor have deadly combo with the void beast and a spell or 2.

Scarabs are pretty annoying to get out of cover on an obj marker. Really annoying. My opponent learned to focus out my 2 dmg weapons early and I don't put objective markers in cover anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One of my regular opponents that is.

Is that any different to Blightlords though? They seem to also be mostly "hard to kill" with little in the way of offensive powers

Blightlords do a lot more damage and are about as hard to kill. My DG friend's Blightlords are fairly easy to screen against thought, because of my 2 friends' lists, the 1KS guy brings more range and more DS attacks.

How are the Blights doing more damage? I can only assume because of the Flail in close combat?

Because their best loadouts are both probably all combi-bolters, which are the same shots for both squads but the Scarabs get a better AP.

Yes, the flails.

So last night I was planning on building a Maulerfiend, I started building the thing as according to the booklet, when I found out that I in actuality was building a Forgefiend instead. I found out when it was too late.

So now I have a Gatling cannon Forgefiend.

What would be the best way to use them? Black Legion with Abaddon and Cultists? My main army is Death Guard which as many people know lack proper long range threats as well as most of their strategems being not as great. Would double forgefiends with Abaddon next to them be something that would work in a semi competitive / non WAAC meta?

Niiru wrote:
So, we have all heard the recent(ish) success of Blightlord Termis in a tournament, showing that while they're not amazing they're at least not a handicap on the table like most terminators.

Is there a place / loadout for a similarly performing Scarab Occult Terminator squad?

I know they lose out on the feel no pain, so they're less sturdy at default, but getting +1 to saves against 1-damage weapons means they end up with a 1+/4++ against small arms fire which isn't terrible.

On top of this, they get a psyker buff as standard. So Glamour giving the enemy -1 to hit against them, or even Weaver giving them a 4++ (or even a 3++ against 1-damage fire) might help out?

All Is Dust lacks the consistent value of Disgustingly Resilient. It's actually a pretty bad rule on terminators since it does nothing against the 2 damage shots that tend to go into them. Nobody cares about you having a 1+ against bolters.

Couple that with SOT's having significantly weaker wargear that is largely limited to GEQ/MEQ clearing and it's not nearly as strong of a unit as the Blightlords.

Niiru wrote:
So, we have all heard the recent(ish) success of Blightlord Termis in a tournament, showing that while they're not amazing they're at least not a handicap on the table like most terminators.

Is there a place / loadout for a similarly performing Scarab Occult Terminator squad?

I know they lose out on the feel no pain, so they're less sturdy at default, but getting +1 to saves against 1-damage weapons means they end up with a 1+/4++ against small arms fire which isn't terrible.

On top of this, they get a psyker buff as standard. So Glamour giving the enemy -1 to hit against them, or even Weaver giving them a 4++ (or even a 3++ against 1-damage fire) might help out?

I’ve been wondering exactly how they compare against low power weapons (and the archetypal Termikiller, Autocannons)

It takes 2/3 x 1/6 x 2W = 18 Heavy Bolter shots to kill a Scarab in the open
It takes 1/2 x 1/3 x 3W = 18 Heavy Bolter shots to kill a Blightlord in the open
(Put them in cover and the BL takes 36)

It takes 1/2 x 1/6 x 2W = 24 Bolter shots to kill a Scarab
It takes 1/3 x 1/6 x 2W = 36 Lasgun shots to kill a Scarab
It takes 1/3 x 1/6 x 3W = 54 Bolter or Lasgun shots to kill a Blightlord

It takes 2/3 x 1/3 x 2W = 2.1 Autocannon shots to kill a Scarab
It takes 2/3 x 1/3 x 3W = 4.2 Autocannon shots to kill a Blightlord
(Put either in cover and it’s doubled)

Scarabs having a psyker is an interesting wildcard, but Blightlords aren’t difficult to tag with Miasma which makes Glamour by the by

Scarabs having a mini Battlecannon and jr asscan and AP Bolters is also interesting, but the 18” double tap and much improved melee weapons are still winning for me as a midfield objective camper

That all these advantages make Blightlords *viable* implies we *might* see a global discount on other Terminators in the next FAQ (if not - Nurgle forbid - a BL nerf, please don’t do this GW). Be advised that this in turn might well make certain SW army builds into terrifying wrecking balls (try surviving a squad of Wolf Guard Terminators with four Thunder Hammer attacks hitting on 3’s).

 lindsay40k wrote:
Scarabs having a psyker is an interesting wildcard, but Blightlords aren’t difficult to tag with Miasma which makes Glamour by the by

Especially since Miasma is miles better than Glamour (range 18" vs range 12", WC6 vs WC7). I used to always take Glamour on my SOT sorcerer but WC7 is crazy (only 58% chance to cast). It always failed at the worse moment. GW hates Tzeentch and loves Nurgle...

Last week, after weeks of no using them, I dropped 5 of them loaded for bear behind a squad of 5 Grey Knights (Strike Squad) in the open. They killed 3 in the Shooting phase (with VoTL) and failed to kill any in the Fight phase. They got charged by another strike squad and all died... I know that was pure bad luck, but that's not an isolated case.

Anyway, after multiple letdowns, I stopped using Scarab Occult Terminators and honestly think they're trash-tier. The BlighLords 4+ invulnerable save alone is worth the 5pts difference. T5 and DR are just salt to our injuries.

 Barnie25 wrote:
So last night I was planning on building a Maulerfiend, I started building the thing as according to the booklet, when I found out that I in actuality was building a Forgefiend instead. I found out when it was too late.

So now I have a Gatling cannon Forgefiend.

What would be the best way to use them? Black Legion with Abaddon and Cultists? My main army is Death Guard which as many people know lack proper long range threats as well as most of their strategems being not as great. Would double forgefiends with Abaddon next to them be something that would work in a semi competitive / non WAAC meta?

Regular csm Lord should do honestly.
Ofcourse abby also is a solution, you will need the daemon engine strat.

Niiru wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:
Playing against scarabs a few times I've been underwhelmed by their damage output. They scare me into not letting him drop on my backfield objective campers because they'll threaten my CSM or cultists, but for the points webway tzangor have deadly combo with the void beast and a spell or 2.

Scarabs are pretty annoying to get out of cover on an obj marker. Really annoying. My opponent learned to focus out my 2 dmg weapons early and I don't put objective markers in cover anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One of my regular opponents that is.

Is that any different to Blightlords though? They seem to also be mostly "hard to kill" with little in the way of offensive powers

Blightlords do a lot more damage and are about as hard to kill. My DG friend's Blightlords are fairly easy to screen against thought, because of my 2 friends' lists, the 1KS guy brings more range and more DS attacks.

How are the Blights doing more damage? I can only assume because of the Flail in close combat?

Because their best loadouts are both probably all combi-bolters, which are the same shots for both squads but the Scarabs get a better AP.

I haven't use Blightlords much, but when I have, I've taken 4 Combi-plasmas and the flail. 18" Rapid Fire is money on plasma, and even though BL have abysmal movement, they can usually find decent range to something as long as you don't drop them in the corner of the table. They put out a fair amount of damage, and if they can make a charge...

Forgefiend with autocannons is at least the best DPR between the two loadouts for it. And in my experience a chaos lord rerolling 1s is as said above, all thats needed. Its already wounding infantry on 2s as is.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Forgefiend with autocannons is at least the best DPR between the two loadouts for it. And in my experience a chaos lord rerolling 1s is as said above, all thats needed. Its already wounding infantry on 2s as is.

Yeah you are probably right, Abby would give another 2 CP but also would make it even more expensive. Now finding a good way to use the Ectoplasma cannons that came with the set, might convert a Deredeo dread with them should be cool.

 Barnie25 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Forgefiend with autocannons is at least the best DPR between the two loadouts for it. And in my experience a chaos lord rerolling 1s is as said above, all thats needed. Its already wounding infantry on 2s as is.

Yeah you are probably right, Abby would give another 2 CP but also would make it even more expensive. Now finding a good way to use the Ectoplasma cannons that came with the set, might convert a Deredeo dread with them should be cool.

You could consider a small cult of destruction spearhead of iron warriors :
Chaos Lord

Forgefiend

1x squad of obliterators

1x squad of havocs

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Barnie25 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Forgefiend with autocannons is at least the best DPR between the two loadouts for it. And in my experience a chaos lord rerolling 1s is as said above, all thats needed. Its already wounding infantry on 2s as is.

Yeah you are probably right, Abby would give another 2 CP but also would make it even more expensive. Now finding a good way to use the Ectoplasma cannons that came with the set, might convert a Deredeo dread with them should be cool.

You could consider a small cult of destruction spearhead of iron warriors :
Chaos Lord

Forgefiend

1x squad of obliterators

1x squad of havocs

What would the havocs be fielding? I'm assuming stuff like H. Bolters and Lascannons, due to their long range?

 vaklor4 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Barnie25 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Forgefiend with autocannons is at least the best DPR between the two loadouts for it. And in my experience a chaos lord rerolling 1s is as said above, all thats needed. Its already wounding infantry on 2s as is.

Yeah you are probably right, Abby would give another 2 CP but also would make it even more expensive. Now finding a good way to use the Ectoplasma cannons that came with the set, might convert a Deredeo dread with them should be cool.

You could consider a small cult of destruction spearhead of iron warriors :
Chaos Lord

Forgefiend

1x squad of obliterators

1x squad of havocs

What would the havocs be fielding? I'm assuming stuff like H. Bolters and Lascannons, due to their long range?

Autocannon or heavy bolter I think. I think there will be a need for chaff clearing. Or something to handle multi wound models.

^ Yeah, Ignores Cover is better used on weapons whose ideal targets can more easily get into cover. Lascannons would usually be shooting at things that can’t easily hide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Spoiler:

Niiru wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:
Playing against scarabs a few times I've been underwhelmed by their damage output. They scare me into not letting him drop on my backfield objective campers because they'll threaten my CSM or cultists, but for the points webway tzangor have deadly combo with the void beast and a spell or 2.

Scarabs are pretty annoying to get out of cover on an obj marker. Really annoying. My opponent learned to focus out my 2 dmg weapons early and I don't put objective markers in cover anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One of my regular opponents that is.

Is that any different to Blightlords though? They seem to also be mostly "hard to kill" with little in the way of offensive powers

Blightlords do a lot more damage and are about as hard to kill. My DG friend's Blightlords are fairly easy to screen against thought, because of my 2 friends' lists, the 1KS guy brings more range and more DS attacks.

How are the Blights doing more damage? I can only assume because of the Flail in close combat?

Because their best loadouts are both probably all combi-bolters, which are the same shots for both squads but the Scarabs get a better AP.

I haven't use Blightlords much, but when I have, I've taken 4 Combi-plasmas and the flail. 18" Rapid Fire is money on plasma, and even though BL have abysmal movement, they can usually find decent range to something as long as you don't drop them in the corner of the table. They put out a fair amount of damage, and if they can make a charge...

I’ve been musing back and forth on Blightlord Plasma.

I’ve had good results with my Chosen Plasma squad. Thing is, that’s putting Plasma in hands that I don’t mind losing to an overheat. Multiple minuses to hit some MVP unit? I may well take the deaths in exchange for deleting a threat.

A super tough Terminator? That’s a model I’m a lot more reluctant to have play Cadian Roulette. If I get a 1, that’s two DR T5 2+/4++ wounds lost. In a faction that’s got wide access to 18” double tap Plasma in cheap hands that can play dangerously. Plus, no access to Prescience without allying in CSM/TSons.

I’m thinking I can see the appeal of the cheap combi-Bolters. The basic power weapons carried by BLTs have two buffs, and the unit can carry a really nice melee weapon that removes a weapon slot. I’ll maybe give them the S6 poo gun, but otherwise I’m inclined to build them cheap.

 lindsay40k wrote:
^ Yeah, Ignores Cover is better used on weapons whose ideal targets can more easily get into cover. Lascannons would usually be shooting at things that can’t easily hide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Spoiler:

Niiru wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:
Playing against scarabs a few times I've been underwhelmed by their damage output. They scare me into not letting him drop on my backfield objective campers because they'll threaten my CSM or cultists, but for the points webway tzangor have deadly combo with the void beast and a spell or 2.

Scarabs are pretty annoying to get out of cover on an obj marker. Really annoying. My opponent learned to focus out my 2 dmg weapons early and I don't put objective markers in cover anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One of my regular opponents that is.

Is that any different to Blightlords though? They seem to also be mostly "hard to kill" with little in the way of offensive powers

Blightlords do a lot more damage and are about as hard to kill. My DG friend's Blightlords are fairly easy to screen against thought, because of my 2 friends' lists, the 1KS guy brings more range and more DS attacks.

How are the Blights doing more damage? I can only assume because of the Flail in close combat?

Because their best loadouts are both probably all combi-bolters, which are the same shots for both squads but the Scarabs get a better AP.

I haven't use Blightlords much, but when I have, I've taken 4 Combi-plasmas and the flail. 18" Rapid Fire is money on plasma, and even though BL have abysmal movement, they can usually find decent range to something as long as you don't drop them in the corner of the table. They put out a fair amount of damage, and if they can make a charge...

I’ve been musing back and forth on Blightlord Plasma.

I’ve had good results with my Chosen Plasma squad. Thing is, that’s putting Plasma in hands that I don’t mind losing to an overheat. Multiple minuses to hit some MVP unit? I may well take the deaths in exchange for deleting a threat.

A super tough Terminator? That’s a model I’m a lot more reluctant to have play Cadian Roulette. If I get a 1, that’s two DR T5 2+/4++ wounds lost. In a faction that’s got wide access to 18” double tap Plasma in cheap hands that can play dangerously. Plus, no access to Prescience without allying in CSM/TSons.

I’m thinking I can see the appeal of the cheap combi-Bolters. The basic power weapons carried by BLTs have two buffs, and the unit can carry a really nice melee weapon that removes a weapon slot. I’ll maybe give them the S6 poo gun, but otherwise I’m inclined to build them cheap.

Oh, I can see it both ways, and if you were to run the plasma, you'd definitely want a source of rerolls (Lord, DP) or some allied CSM for Prescience. Keeping them cheap is definitely an option, but your opponent will just kite them if they don't reach melee. It's harder to kite and ignore 18" double-tapping Plasma.

 lindsay40k wrote:


I’ve been musing back and forth on Blightlord Plasma.

I’ve had good results with my Chosen Plasma squad. Thing is, that’s putting Plasma in hands that I don’t mind losing to an overheat. Multiple minuses to hit some MVP unit? I may well take the deaths in exchange for deleting a threat.

A super tough Terminator? That’s a model I’m a lot more reluctant to have play Cadian Roulette. If I get a 1, that’s two DR T5 2+/4++ wounds lost. In a faction that’s got wide access to 18” double tap Plasma in cheap hands that can play dangerously. Plus, no access to Prescience without allying in CSM/TSons.

I’m thinking I can see the appeal of the cheap combi-Bolters. The basic power weapons carried by BLTs have two buffs, and the unit can carry a really nice melee weapon that removes a weapon slot. I’ll maybe give them the S6 poo gun, but otherwise I’m inclined to build them cheap.

When you say that DG has access to cheap handed 18" double-tap plasma... do you mean plague marines? I can't see anything else that can take it that's 'cheap' (I guess they're relatively cheap), but surely it's better to take blight launchers and have 24" 'double tap' shots instead?

Niiru wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:


I’ve been musing back and forth on Blightlord Plasma.

I’ve had good results with my Chosen Plasma squad. Thing is, that’s putting Plasma in hands that I don’t mind losing to an overheat. Multiple minuses to hit some MVP unit? I may well take the deaths in exchange for deleting a threat.

A super tough Terminator? That’s a model I’m a lot more reluctant to have play Cadian Roulette. If I get a 1, that’s two DR T5 2+/4++ wounds lost. In a faction that’s got wide access to 18” double tap Plasma in cheap hands that can play dangerously. Plus, no access to Prescience without allying in CSM/TSons.

I’m thinking I can see the appeal of the cheap combi-Bolters. The basic power weapons carried by BLTs have two buffs, and the unit can carry a really nice melee weapon that removes a weapon slot. I’ll maybe give them the S6 poo gun, but otherwise I’m inclined to build them cheap.

When you say that DG has access to cheap handed 18" double-tap plasma... do you mean plague marines? I can't see anything else that can take it that's 'cheap' (I guess they're relatively cheap), but surely it's better to take blight launchers and have 24" 'double tap' shots instead?

There's also the definition of cheap when it comes to opportunity cost. For example, you can get 5 Combi-Plasma in a Blightlord squad, but how many points do you need to spend to try and get the same amount of shots with Plague Marines?

 vaklor4 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Barnie25 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Forgefiend with autocannons is at least the best DPR between the two loadouts for it. And in my experience a chaos lord rerolling 1s is as said above, all thats needed. Its already wounding infantry on 2s as is.

Yeah you are probably right, Abby would give another 2 CP but also would make it even more expensive. Now finding a good way to use the Ectoplasma cannons that came with the set, might convert a Deredeo dread with them should be cool.

You could consider a small cult of destruction spearhead of iron warriors :
Chaos Lord

Forgefiend

1x squad of obliterators

1x squad of havocs

What would the havocs be fielding? I'm assuming stuff like H. Bolters and Lascannons, due to their long range?

Personally i like autocannons, they are flexibel enough, ignore cover helps against cover campers. Alternativly go 10 havocs for a screen. Technically you could also field a predator with autocannon and havoc launcher.

 lindsay40k wrote:

I’ve had good results with my Chosen Plasma squad. Thing is, that’s putting Plasma in hands that I don’t mind losing to an overheat. Multiple minuses to hit some MVP unit? I may well take the deaths in exchange for deleting a threat.

A slight aside on this point, any reason you're going with Chosen for your plasma over Havocs? I'm musing on how to build and outfit my Chosen and keep coming back to the fact that, for four special weapons, Havocs come in cheaper. I mean the Chosen have a better Ld and an extra attack (with the option to take a free chainsword for another one), but if you're shooting for a plasma death squad, they're likely going to be a target, so keeping them cheap and cheerful is what holds me back. Is it because of competition for the heavy slots from things like Obliterators, Predators etc?