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 vaklor4 wrote:
Kharn is 100% fight only. No rerollin shots.

Kharn allows you to reroll all failed hits within 1".

Primortus wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Kharn is 100% fight only. No rerollin shots.

Kharn allows you to reroll all failed hits within 1".

That's really weird, you'd have expected it to be the fight phase only, but it does seem to be at all times for any unit within 1".

Indeed my mistake, just read my codex when I got home! I'll start using that to my advantage I suppose

Also World Eaters are honestly bad outside their Deny stratagem. The only Legion worse for them is Black Legion, and to be honest with Abigail that would basically even out.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also World Eaters are honestly bad outside their Deny stratagem. The only Legion worse for them is Black Legion, and to be honest with Abigail that would basically even out.

Wait what? +1 attack in melee is bad? The reason you don't see more WE is that transports are too expensive, not because the trait is bad. (well that and the weak 3+save in combination with a marine + price that leads to a relatively glasscannonlike unit)

Additionally the worst csm trait is WB followed by failbaddon "the (h)-armless's" bunch.

WE Berzerkers are kinda weird because unless you're trying to punch out a knight or something the extra attack is kinda overkill. Which, to be fair, might be valid, but still I think in most cases you'd rather have the superior mobility from an Undivided legion.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
WE Berzerkers are kinda weird because unless you're trying to punch out a knight or something the extra attack is kinda overkill. Which, to be fair, might be valid, but still I think in most cases you'd rather have the superior mobility from an Undivided legion.

Not if you intend to go msu. Infact i imagine if you throw down enough msu squads you could make that list work atleast against some enemies.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
WE Berzerkers are kinda weird because unless you're trying to punch out a knight or something the extra attack is kinda overkill. Which, to be fair, might be valid, but still I think in most cases you'd rather have the superior mobility from an Undivided legion.

Not if you intend to go msu. Infact i imagine if you throw down enough msu squads you could make that list work atleast against some enemies.

Planning to run 3-5 squads in my next game, will let people know how it goes.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also World Eaters are honestly bad outside their Deny stratagem. The only Legion worse for them is Black Legion, and to be honest with Abigail that would basically even out.

Wait what? +1 attack in melee is bad? The reason you don't see more WE is that transports are too expensive, not because the trait is bad. (well that and the weak 3+save in combination with a marine + price that leads to a relatively glasscannonlike unit)

Additionally the worst csm trait is WB followed by failbaddon "the (h)-armless's" bunch.

+1 ONLY if you charge first. Berserker Marines already have 2 S6 attacks and 1 S5 attack without attacking twice in the first place. I think you'll be fine.

Word Bearers are merely mediocre (your larger squads not running off is kinda nice) and Black Legion gives you the armless failure (granted that, without him, the whole Legion is a bad choice that's correct), and you aren't forced into not using Sorcerers.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also World Eaters are honestly bad outside their Deny stratagem. The only Legion worse for them is Black Legion, and to be honest with Abigail that would basically even out.

Wait what? +1 attack in melee is bad? The reason you don't see more WE is that transports are too expensive, not because the trait is bad. (well that and the weak 3+save in combination with a marine + price that leads to a relatively glasscannonlike unit)

Additionally the worst csm trait is WB followed by failbaddon "the (h)-armless's" bunch.

+1 ONLY if you charge first. Berserker Marines already have 2 S6 attacks and 1 S5 attack without attacking twice in the first place. I think you'll be fine.

Word Bearers are merely mediocre (your larger squads not running off is kinda nice) and Black Legion gives you the armless failure (granted that, without him, the whole Legion is a bad choice that's correct), and you aren't forced into not using Sorcerers.

How often do you run such squads?
Because cultists you run 1 probably at max size, the rest you run msu. But their morale is so terrible that it won't matter.
Sorceres can be allied in, detachments need to be pure, not the whole army. So basically there is no disadvantage that can be circumvented for WE.

World Eaters are EASILY in the top half of the CSM legions. Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and Night Lords are all inferior, because they're usually things you have to build around to make them work. For WE, you just bring close combat units and send them in. Even cultists with WE are hilarious at times, being able to rock 3 attacks per model on a charge. Who wouldn't want to get 120 attacks off a full 40 cultists?

Iron warriors have cold and bitter slaaneshi cultists that ignore cover with a 6 up fnp for one cp, tho. Also double butcher cannon leviathan dreadnoughts that ignore cover.

 vaklor4 wrote:
World Eaters are EASILY in the top half of the CSM legions. Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and Night Lords are all inferior, because they're usually things you have to build around to make them work. For WE, you just bring close combat units and send them in. Even cultists with WE are hilarious at times, being able to rock 3 attacks per model on a charge. Who wouldn't want to get 120 attacks off a full 40 cultists?

The fact you just said Iron Warriors are inferior makes me think you haven't read the codex. At all.

More than a legion trait decides how powerful a legion is. Yes the black legion trait isn't mind blowing, but black legion cultists backed by abaddon is one of the most solid things we have.

Likewise iron warriors cultists blobs are very good as well.

The worst two legions are emperor's children and word bearers imo. The EC legion trait hardly ever comes in handy, and in the rare moments when it does, you have a stratagem that does the exact same thing. The only thing EC has going for them is noise marines as troops, which is nice...but not a game changer. Also lucius sucks.

Emperors Children also have excellent Relic access (Blissgiver YMMV and Elixer is always excellent), a decent Stratagem, and a decent Warlord trait.

That said, both World Eaters and Emperors Children need their own Codices.

+1 attack makes a huge difference, 60 or 80 attacks completely change things, sometimes is overkill but when you multi charge units (a thing you easily want to do with berserker) you need extra attacks.

For a doubles tournament I am teaming up with a necron player. Both a 1000 points. I am bringing Ahriman on Disk, cultists and renegade knights. The necron player will spam Tomb Blades and Destroyers.

I need to provide the AT. The Daemon Prince is a good anti tank tool in combat. What would then be better?

-a Renegade Knight with either double gatling gun

-3 Helverines.

The Gaze of Faith power gives me a free reroll each turn, this would improve the thermal cannon quite a bit I think. Double Gatling is more general ofcourse however also more expensive. The 3 Helverines have strong shooting but can be locked in combat and have no melee as well as T7 instead of T8.

What would you guys advice?

As a Word Bearer player, I was very disappointed that we didn't end up with a better legion or warlord trait in this codex. I feel that the Iron Warriors warlord trait is better suited to a Word Bearers army, but what can you do? I am lucky that I just play for the sheer thrill of chucking dice around and yelling at models. Morale is such a non-starter these days - you either have a big blob of cultists in which the re-roll is only affecting HOW MANY of them fall off the table at the end of the turn, or you just don't need to take morale because you're using reasonably sized squads that will be entirely wiped out before they'd be able to fail a morale test on anything other than a 6...

 Barnie25 wrote:
For a doubles tournament I am teaming up with a necron player. Both a 1000 points. I am bringing Ahriman on Disk, cultists and renegade knights. The necron player will spam Tomb Blades and Destroyers.

I need to provide the AT. The Daemon Prince is a good anti tank tool in combat. What would then be better?

-a Renegade Knight with either double gatling gun

-3 Helverines.

The Gaze of Faith power gives me a free reroll each turn, this would improve the thermal cannon quite a bit I think. Double Gatling is more general ofcourse however also more expensive. The 3 Helverines have strong shooting but can be locked in combat and have no melee as well as T7 instead of T8.

What would you guys advice?

i would go for a double gatling, with the re roll stratagem it delivers a crazy amount of bullets, or you can use two rapid fire battlecannons, 2x thermal cannon are just 2d6 shots bit too few for my taste, double gatling has just str 6 but 24 re rollable hits ap -2 d 2 is enough to handle average tanks, then if you afraid to meet IK then yes go for 2x thermal cannons and stormspear rocket pod, the double gatling+double flamer makes IK hard to charge, light units can get lot of wounds before get into base contact. Helverins are a nice support for IK but ap-1 is an handicap and lack of melee power another.

 Raichase wrote:
As a Word Bearer player, I was very disappointed that we didn't end up with a better legion or warlord trait in this codex. I feel that the Iron Warriors warlord trait is better suited to a Word Bearers army, but what can you do? I am lucky that I just play for the sheer thrill of chucking dice around and yelling at models. Morale is such a non-starter these days - you either have a big blob of cultists in which the re-roll is only affecting HOW MANY of them fall off the table at the end of the turn, or you just don't need to take morale because you're using reasonably sized squads that will be entirely wiped out before they'd be able to fail a morale test on anything other than a 6...

I do agree that the legion trait is sorta ass, and so is their stratagem, but I particularly enjoy their warlord trait quite a bit. Can make for some funny combos.

 vaklor4 wrote:
World Eaters are EASILY in the top half of the CSM legions. Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and Night Lords are all inferior, because they're usually things you have to build around to make them work. For WE, you just bring close combat units and send them in. Even cultists with WE are hilarious at times, being able to rock 3 attacks per model on a charge. Who wouldn't want to get 120 attacks off a full 40 cultists?

Yeah, I agree. (sort of). I think Iron warriors are good too. But night lords, world bearers are inferior unless you really try and build a trait around their legion trait.

In any case, an important thing to remember is that the World Eaters legion trait combined with berzerkers means that the zerker sergeant with a powerfist has 8 powerfist attacks on the charge. That is more than most characters and as good as a daemon prince, and with a better AP too. The rest of the 4 zerkers in the Rhino are just abalative wounds and good for weight of additional attacks. (So, even a 5 man zerker unit can take on most things).

So, if you have 5 squads in Rhinos, that's 5 zerker captains running around each with 8 power fist attacks, and are obsec. Thats pretty good to me.

Has anyone got experience running a Khorne Lord of Skulls? I was thinking of converting one to go with a khornate daemon army (skullreaver DP, bloodletters, maybe some skull cannons...).

It was hilariously bad last edition but seems much improved in 8th. Combined with the daemon forge strategem, it looks like both the shooting and the melee are very powerful, plus it's fairly resilient on paper. I guess it's a comparable price to an IK valliant or castellan, with similar resilience (no rotate shields/WT for 4++ but a permanent 5++ and regen), far superior melee (especially when in the middle or bottom wounds degredation) but inferior shooting. I haven't seen many people either endorse the lord of skulls or denounce it, so am curious.

 blackmage wrote:

 Barnie25 wrote:
For a doubles tournament I am teaming up with a necron player. Both a 1000 points. I am bringing Ahriman on Disk, cultists and renegade knights. The necron player will spam Tomb Blades and Destroyers.

I need to provide the AT. The Daemon Prince is a good anti tank tool in combat. What would then be better?

-a Renegade Knight with either double gatling gun

-3 Helverines.

The Gaze of Faith power gives me a free reroll each turn, this would improve the thermal cannon quite a bit I think. Double Gatling is more general ofcourse however also more expensive. The 3 Helverines have strong shooting but can be locked in combat and have no melee as well as T7 instead of T8.

What would you guys advice?

i would go for a double gatling, with the re roll stratagem it delivers a crazy amount of bullets, or you can use two rapid fire battlecannons, 2x thermal cannon are just 2d6 shots bit too few for my taste, double gatling has just str 6 but 24 re rollable hits ap -2 d 2 is enough to handle average tanks, then if you afraid to meet IK then yes go for 2x thermal cannons and stormspear rocket pod, the double gatling+double flamer makes IK hard to charge, light units can get lot of wounds before get into base contact. Helverins are a nice support for IK but ap-1 is an handicap and lack of melee power another.

I think I will go for a setup with a Thermal Cannon, Gatling Cannon and Stormspear rocket pod. I will only have 5 CP for the game so I will onlt be reliably using the reroll strat once. This way I have good dedicated antitank while still having enough dakka overal.

ArikTaranis wrote:
Has anyone got experience running a Khorne Lord of Skulls? I was thinking of converting one to go with a khornate daemon army (skullreaver DP, bloodletters, maybe some skull cannons...).

It was hilariously bad last edition but seems much improved in 8th. Combined with the daemon forge strategem, it looks like both the shooting and the melee are very powerful, plus it's fairly resilient on paper. I guess it's a comparable price to an IK valliant or castellan, with similar resilience (no rotate shields/WT for 4++ but a permanent 5++ and regen), far superior melee (especially when in the middle or bottom wounds degredation) but inferior shooting. I haven't seen many people either endorse the lord of skulls or denounce it, so am curious.

It's better than it was in 7th. This is true.

I've run it in maybe 5 games. The positive was, man, it can take a lot of shooting. The negative was, man, it attracts a lot of shooting.

Only got it into melee once. It did very well in that battle.

How do you run the Lord of Skulls? With or without the Hades autocannon? With seems really expensive.

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Raichase wrote:
As a Word Bearer player, I was very disappointed that we didn't end up with a better legion or warlord trait in this codex. I feel that the Iron Warriors warlord trait is better suited to a Word Bearers army, but what can you do? I am lucky that I just play for the sheer thrill of chucking dice around and yelling at models. Morale is such a non-starter these days - you either have a big blob of cultists in which the re-roll is only affecting HOW MANY of them fall off the table at the end of the turn, or you just don't need to take morale because you're using reasonably sized squads that will be entirely wiped out before they'd be able to fail a morale test on anything other than a 6...

I do agree that the legion trait is sorta ass, and so is their stratagem, but I particularly enjoy their warlord trait quite a bit. Can make for some funny combos.

The WB warlord trait actually is fairly usefull. If you make it a gunline, doubleing the 6" radius to a 12 " is fairly usefull, especially if you intend to footslog, problem is what good longrange dakka options do we have? (dakkafieds are expensive, Havocs are good but i'd rather ignore cover then get a morale buff or get the -1 to hit trait, preds are still too expensive, Dakka brutes are the same as Havocs, LR's are terrible to put it mildly, regular CSM are like any tac marine and wannabee tac marine ovepriced by around 2 pts, Cultmarines would profit from it though, bunch of noise marines could do really well but so could they with virtually all other traits then the EC trait, etc.)

Nightlords, though, that trait is to put it bluntly, too specific. Basically you try to make the enemy lose through morale and the units that do that allready are too expensive pts wise and you don't even get obsec on them, because F you and take an assasin to the head. Granted you can make nightlords work, with a gak ton of fast units (biker msu, lords with jumppacks or on bikes, etc.) but even if you fully focus on their fast nature you can at most field 9 (10 if you count 1 max blob suprise cultists) really fast units with bikes, talons and raptors. On the other hand their -1 to hit strategem is good and CP can be farmed vie soup or via cheap battalionfiller cultists. Basically they have one build with one gimmick which can work but is hold back via the pricing on Warptalons, bikers and especially Raptors. (Actually, will we ever get Raptors with bolters?)

ArikTaranis wrote:
Has anyone got experience running a Khorne Lord of Skulls? I was thinking of converting one to go with a khornate daemon army (skullreaver DP, bloodletters, maybe some skull cannons...).

It was hilariously bad last edition but seems much improved in 8th. Combined with the daemon forge strategem, it looks like both the shooting and the melee are very powerful, plus it's fairly resilient on paper. I guess it's a comparable price to an IK valliant or castellan, with similar resilience (no rotate shields/WT for 4++ but a permanent 5++ and regen), far superior melee (especially when in the middle or bottom wounds degredation) but inferior shooting. I haven't seen many people either endorse the lord of skulls or denounce it, so am curious.

Ive played it at least a dozen times and I can safely say always go Gatling Cannon. The Lord of Skulls is Primaris's worst nightmare, as all of its guns are 2 damage 8 strength (as far as I know.)

But yes, it is far better than any knight in melee, is suprisingly hard to kill and attracts a tooon of fire. Be ready to lose ot by turn 2 if your opponent builds around it, but that also means they will have to ignore the rest of your army. At best its unstoppable in shooting and melee. At worst, its a massively durable distraction.

 vaklor4 wrote:

ArikTaranis wrote:
Has anyone got experience running a Khorne Lord of Skulls? I was thinking of converting one to go with a khornate daemon army (skullreaver DP, bloodletters, maybe some skull cannons...).

It was hilariously bad last edition but seems much improved in 8th. Combined with the daemon forge strategem, it looks like both the shooting and the melee are very powerful, plus it's fairly resilient on paper. I guess it's a comparable price to an IK valliant or castellan, with similar resilience (no rotate shields/WT for 4++ but a permanent 5++ and regen), far superior melee (especially when in the middle or bottom wounds degredation) but inferior shooting. I haven't seen many people either endorse the lord of skulls or denounce it, so am curious.

Ive played it at least a dozen times and I can safely say always go Gatling Cannon. The Lord of Skulls is Primaris's worst nightmare, as all of its guns are 2 damage 8 strength (as far as I know.)

But yes, it is far better than any knight in melee, is suprisingly hard to kill and attracts a tooon of fire. Be ready to lose ot by turn 2 if your opponent builds around it, but that also means they will have to ignore the rest of your army. At best its unstoppable in shooting and melee. At worst, its a massively durable distraction.

Have you seen the Kytan in action? It is roughly 130 points cheaper and just as killy in close combat. Would make a nice partner with Magnus to build around together and smash face.

So, what's with alpha legion now?

 koooaei wrote:
So, what's with alpha legion now?

Summa sumarum, still the best legion trait. The strategem is now only really worth it if you want to squeeze in that first turn charge with certain fast units or bikerlords with talismans. Bascially a reduction to another chaos gunline, except this time more durable, with the potential of some shock attacks which however require fast movement.