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Actually re-reading it, yes it can take two fists and swap them both out.

Taking two Power Scourges is pretty effective as you get +6 attacks.

Given their base attacks, I don't think another CCW would really be all that great.
I also don't think you get an extra attack for an extra CCW. The datacards specifically say if a model can get an extra attack -- such as in the case of chainswords.

Loopstah wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Can a helbrutes take two power scourges?

Edit: Thought no but on a re-read yes you can.

Pure RAW probably.
But why wouldn't it say that you can replace your multimelta with a power scourge. I am hoping it is possible but until then i won't start ripping of arms.

Back onto an important topic:
What to take to get some model count in. Daemons look very promising. Bring the shooty stuff from CSM and get some numbers from CD.

Also in the deathguard entry, the champion can take a Plasma Gun? Not Pistol?

Loopstah wrote:
Actually re-reading it, yes it can take two fists and swap them both out.

Taking two Power Scourges is pretty effective as you get +6 attacks.

+7 they get 1 for having 2 close combat weapons too (from there own datasheet)

So 11 str 8, -2ap, 2 Damage attacks for 158 pts? Seems like a steal. Too bad they can't deepstrike.

Heh, 22 attacks if lucky on the crazed roll.

Well now I know how to build my World Eater Helbrutes.

Here is how my IW conversion from 7th is taking shape 1850pts but it translaters to 2000pts - which it prob the new norm

Only new model i need to get is a sorcerer


Things i'v noticed/spotted:
Battalion is actually really annoying to fill the slots for, its deceptive you think its the new combines arms but you you need 3 troops and 2 hq, that second hq for me is a pain but oh well.
Battleforged gets you 3cps as standard! so this army has 6 - kinda nice fit, re-roll a turn
Sorcerers don't have an inv! i'v taken a risk and put one in termi army to drop with the obilts or where needed... its not the most efficient but meh - needed that second bloody hq.
Lords are cheap bare bones, have the 4++ the re-roll of 1's and quite tough!
Although i took it out power mauls, and combi bolters are dirt cheap... worth chucking on asp champs if you have the pts (which you do with loads of odd numbered pts). Combi bolters esp at 2 pts its rapid fire 2 so thats 4 shots at 12"!
Interesting if ye not interested in the heavy wep or other options you can run units at 5 guys and pack them both into the same transport for funs, free asp champs and meeting force org slots. Both going in the rhino is really hard to get ye head around after 19 years of it not being an option!
Not too fussed i built my knights with dul weapons now instead of the CCws... read titanic feet! 3 attacks per swing... so 4 attacks = 12 s8 -2 d3 dam... screw the reaper chainsword!

edit: think got the feet rules wrong, i guess its 4 attacks, but you hit them 3 times... so still only every killing 4 dudes

What are peoples thoughts on Fiends of Slaanesh? They seem pretty good at 43 points for 3w with a 5++ and pack a wollop in melee.

The only real downside is that they come as single models for over $20 a pop... I was thinking about using 9 of them to escort a Chaos Lord on a steed.

 Latro_ wrote:

edit: think got the feet rules wrong, i guess its 4 attacks, but you hit them 3 times... so still only every killing 4 dudes

naaa, i think you were right. it reads "make 3 hit rolls per attack". 3 hit roll can hit 3 guys, its 3 hits, not 3 dmg.

stormcraft wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:

edit: think got the feet rules wrong, i guess its 4 attacks, but you hit them 3 times... so still only every killing 4 dudes

naaa, i think you were right. it reads "make 3 hit rolls per attack". 3 hit roll can hit 3 guys, its 3 hits, not 3 dmg.

well kinda right then, i guess its still 4 attacks not 12, you just get 3 hits per one attack hit... which i'm not sure if thats mathematically better than 12 attacks... sure makes cmd points useful

Just regarding larger (10x) Chosen plasma squads, I just realised that the champion can also take a combi-plasma. So, if I read this right, four chosen can take a combi-plasma, another extra one can too, as can the champion. So we can now get 6x combi-plasma in the same squad. Do you think this is the best way to go with the champion, or do you think a power sword and plasma pistol would be better for flexibility?

What does everyone think about The Fallen it seems that you can take 4 special weapons 1 more special weapons or heavy weapon and a champion with a combi
so you could have 6 plasma/melta shots per unit which seems pretty good IMO, put them in rhinos and back them up with some havocs with ML and it may be fun to play

Lowhole wrote:
What does everyone think about The Fallen it seems that you can take 4 special weapons 1 more special weapons or heavy weapon and a champion with a combi
so you could have 6 plasma/melta shots per unit which seems pretty good IMO, put them in rhinos and back them up with some havocs with ML and it may be fun to play

They would be good, but sadly Fallen can't ride in any vehicles for some reason. In the index where it discusses keywords, the last line says the fallen cannot replace the <legion> keyword. Now look at any CSM vehicle under transport. They say they can transport any <legion> infantry. It's dumb, but that's how it is.

They are the best backline infantry shooters though, just don't expect them to go anywhere.

What are peoples thoughts on power sword chosen ?

I'm very tempted to pick up some palatine blades and use them as such, with a 6th member carrying an icon.

I have a whole bunch of power Swords too, that I was tempted to try this out with, unfortunately I think Loyalists may have a better time with it. They seem too expensive as a suicide unit, and without an apothecary may not ever function.

But most likely I will build one, just as a rule of cool.

 Rydria wrote:
I'm trying to work out if taking daemonettes in squads of 30 is worth that +1 attack.

The masque also seems ridiculously good, -1 hit is very powerful

Its not worth it. The Units is to large to bring down with Daemonic Ritual, and won't make it across the board with 20 models remaining. Plus at 20 models there already getting unwieldy to maneuver. Taking more 15-20 models units is a better choice. If you coordinate right and dual charge two units could easily be in range of a herald for +1S which while not as good as getting more rends is still great.

 Rydria wrote:
What are peoples thoughts on power sword chosen ?

I'm very tempted to pick up some palatine blades and use them as such, with a 6th member carrying an icon.

Power sword chosen will be good. Take a unit of 10 and anyone who doesn't take a power sword takes a chainsword and bolt pistol. Stick them all in a Rhino and you've got a unit that can chew through MEQs and below for a reasonable price. A squad of 6 works too because you can take a Lord or Apostle along to improve your combat abilities.

It's also worth nothing that Fallen are almost identical to Chosen except that Chosen are 2ppm more expensive and have the <Legion> keyword.


I'm wondering what people are thinking for their ranged fire support? The options seem to be Predators, Forgefiends and Havocs with missiles/lascannons or maybe autocannons. I'm thinking Predators with the autocannon and lascannon sponsons as it's more survivable than the Havocs and has better damage than the Forgefiend.

Lets pretend that I don't use rhinos, and that I am not really a fan of land raiders.

How do I get my zerkers into combat without losing like all of them to shooting?

 Rydria wrote:
What are peoples thoughts on power sword chosen ?

I'm very tempted to pick up some palatine blades and use them as such, with a 6th member carrying an icon.

What, makes Palatine Blades good though is they can take Jump packs and Eidolon with his thunder hammer. Sadly, vanguard vet do it better.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Lowhole wrote:
What does everyone think about The Fallen it seems that you can take 4 special weapons 1 more special weapons or heavy weapon and a champion with a combi
so you could have 6 plasma/melta shots per unit which seems pretty good IMO, put them in rhinos and back them up with some havocs with ML and it may be fun to play

They would be good, but sadly Fallen can't ride in any vehicles for some reason. In the index where it discusses keywords, the last line says the fallen cannot replace the <legion> keyword. Now look at any CSM vehicle under transport. They say they can transport any <legion> infantry. It's dumb, but that's how it is.

They are the best backline infantry shooters though, just don't expect them to go anywhere.

well that is disappointing was thinking of doing a Fallen themed army

 luke1705 wrote:
Lets pretend that I don't use rhinos, and that I am not really a fan of land raiders.

How do I get my zerkers into combat without losing like all of them to shooting?

You are going to have to tie up the shooters so the zerkers can get there. Tough units that can stick around for a while and get in quick. Even better: How do you feel about dreadclaws?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lowhole wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Lowhole wrote:
What does everyone think about The Fallen it seems that you can take 4 special weapons 1 more special weapons or heavy weapon and a champion with a combi
so you could have 6 plasma/melta shots per unit which seems pretty good IMO, put them in rhinos and back them up with some havocs with ML and it may be fun to play

They would be good, but sadly Fallen can't ride in any vehicles for some reason. In the index where it discusses keywords, the last line says the fallen cannot replace the <legion> keyword. Now look at any CSM vehicle under transport. They say they can transport any <legion> infantry. It's dumb, but that's how it is.

They are the best backline infantry shooters though, just don't expect them to go anywhere.

well that is disappointing was thinking of doing a Fallen themed army

It might still be possible if forgeworld forgets to put the <legion> restriction on dreadclaws. I wouldn't bet on it, but then, I wouldn't bet against it either.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Lets pretend that I don't use rhinos, and that I am not really a fan of land raiders.

How do I get my zerkers into combat without losing like all of them to shooting?

You are going to have to tie up the shooters so the zerkers can get there. Tough units that can stick around for a while and get in quick. Even better: How do you feel about dreadclaws?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lowhole wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Lowhole wrote:
What does everyone think about The Fallen it seems that you can take 4 special weapons 1 more special weapons or heavy weapon and a champion with a combi
so you could have 6 plasma/melta shots per unit which seems pretty good IMO, put them in rhinos and back them up with some havocs with ML and it may be fun to play

They would be good, but sadly Fallen can't ride in any vehicles for some reason. In the index where it discusses keywords, the last line says the fallen cannot replace the <legion> keyword. Now look at any CSM vehicle under transport. They say they can transport any <legion> infantry. It's dumb, but that's how it is.

They are the best backline infantry shooters though, just don't expect them to go anywhere.

well that is disappointing was thinking of doing a Fallen themed army

It might still be possible if forgeworld forgets to put the <legion> restriction on dreadclaws. I wouldn't bet on it, but then, I wouldn't bet against it either.

meh, wouldn't want to go that rout anyways

was hoping to run something like cypher 3 units of fallen in rhinos chaos lord 3 units of havocs and some filler but that idea is out the window now
it would have been fun to play and would have been something different on tabel top that you dont usually see

Anyone else feel like Slaanesh kind of got the shaft here!? I mean, I dont know if I'd consider our units straight bad, but it really feels like the writers put the least amount of thought into our units special rules.
Noise marines for example have pretty much the worst mark ability- getting a free attack everytime one of our models die is wasted on a unit that can't be kitted out for melee combat in any formidable way. If NM get caught in combat they're pretty much screwed, and four or five strength 4 hits isn't going to turn it around.

On the Slaanesh side, we have the most situational passive out of the four gods. A +1 invulnerable or 5+fnp is always useful- +1 strength AND attack applies for khorne when they charge or even if they get charged. Our passive only triggers if we get charged, and how often will that be when we have some of the fastest units in the game?

Meh.

I've been thinking a out how a mono-Slaanesh army should look, and it seems like the book is really encouraging us to use as much synergy as we can. If we stack our units properly we can get a lot of overlapping benefits, like cumulative hit penalties on enemy units. What I'm curious about though is how effective blobs will be. The bonuses for large squads is nice, but after watching some 8th edition batreps, it seems like blobs will be really hard to wield them properly. With the way combat works now for example, you have to be really careful about accidentally dragging units into combat that you didn't mean to. Charging a unit, accidentally multicharging some other units and then suffering multiple overwatches can be really devastating for our t3 dudes.

Also I'm not sure how to get around multiflamer overwatch. Anything with 2+ flamers is going to be absolute hell on seekers and daemonettes.

 SeraphimXIX wrote:
Anyone else feel like Slaanesh kind of got the shaft here!? I mean, I dont know if I'd consider our units straight bad, but it really feels like the writers put the least amount of thought into our units special rules.
Noise marines for example have pretty much the worst mark ability- getting a free attack everytime one of our models die is wasted on a unit that can't be kitted out for melee combat in any formidable way. If NM get caught in combat they're pretty much screwed, and four or five strength 4 hits isn't going to turn it around.

On the Slaanesh side, we have the most situational passive out of the four gods. A +1 invulnerable or 5+fnp is always useful- +1 strength AND attack applies for khorne when they charge or even if they get charged. Our passive only triggers if we get charged, and how often will that be when we have some of the fastest units in the game?

Meh.

I've been thinking a out how a mono-Slaanesh army should look, and it seems like the book is really encouraging us to use as much synergy as we can. If we stack our units properly we can get a lot of overlapping benefits, like cumulative hit penalties on enemy units. What I'm curious about though is how effective blobs will be. The bonuses for large squads is nice, but after watching some 8th edition batreps, it seems like blobs will be really hard to wield them properly. With the way combat works now for example, you have to be really careful about accidentally dragging units into combat that you didn't mean to. Charging a unit, accidentally multicharging some other units and then suffering multiple overwatches can be really devastating for our t3 dudes.

Also I'm not sure how to get around multiflamer overwatch. Anything with 2+ flamers is going to be absolute hell on seekers and daemonettes.

To me, it looks like the Music of the Apocalypse triggers even if the model dies to a shooting attack. Meaning dead Noise Marines get one final shot before they disappear. I think that's pretty good, especially if the model has a Blastmaster or Doom Siren. They don't have to be kitted out for melee at all; they can even shoot their weapons into an enemy they are locked in combat with. That doesn't suck; it's awesome!

I might have to agree on the Daemon side, though. Attacking first is a situational thing, but when it works, I'm sure it's spicy.

 luke1705 wrote:
Lets pretend that I don't use rhinos, and that I am not really a fan of land raiders.

How do I get my zerkers into combat without losing like all of them to shooting?

As unfluffy as it is you can rock a sorcerer and whack warp time on them for a an extra 6" move.
FW book is coming claw pods will be in it
can be lucky with rolls (maybe use cmd for a re-roll, not sure you can do this thou at this stage) to pick the deployment type most favouring assault armies
send fast stuff like a massive line of fleshhounds forward to tie stuff up or deep strike stuff like termies in for the same tactic
lord of skulls or something and literally hide them behind it

 SeraphimXIX wrote:
Anyone else feel like Slaanesh kind of got the shaft here!? I mean, I dont know if I'd consider our units straight bad, but it really feels like the writers put the least amount of thought into our units special rules.
Noise marines for example have pretty much the worst mark ability- getting a free attack everytime one of our models die is wasted on a unit that can't be kitted out for melee combat in any formidable way. If NM get caught in combat they're pretty much screwed, and four or five strength 4 hits isn't going to turn it around.

On the Slaanesh side, we have the most situational passive out of the four gods. A +1 invulnerable or 5+fnp is always useful- +1 strength AND attack applies for khorne when they charge or even if they get charged. Our passive only triggers if we get charged, and how often will that be when we have some of the fastest units in the game?

Meh.

I've been thinking a out how a mono-Slaanesh army should look, and it seems like the book is really encouraging us to use as much synergy as we can. If we stack our units properly we can get a lot of overlapping benefits, like cumulative hit penalties on enemy units. What I'm curious about though is how effective blobs will be. The bonuses for large squads is nice, but after watching some 8th edition batreps, it seems like blobs will be really hard to wield them properly. With the way combat works now for example, you have to be really careful about accidentally dragging units into combat that you didn't mean to. Charging a unit, accidentally multicharging some other units and then suffering multiple overwatches can be really devastating for our t3 dudes.

Also I'm not sure how to get around multiflamer overwatch. Anything with 2+ flamers is going to be absolute hell on seekers and daemonettes.

Well it could have been worse. While the mark is underwhelming and the icon highly situational. Noise marines are still damn good this edition compared to years past. We've been freed of the Salvo rule, and have a Assault 3 bolter. That's three S4 shots at up to 24", that's a lot better than a tactical marines bolter, and it ignores cover. The Blastmaster lost some effectiveness against power armored marines, but got better against terminators and multi-wound models. You can still take a Blastmaster in a MSU unit and camp and objective from range. Or exchange those bolters for a chainsword and they're have 3 attacks each. The Noise Champion has 3 base attacks with either a special melee weapon upgrade, or 4 with a free chainsword. So, 31 attacks in melee from 10 marines costing 160 pts, and they have DTTFE for a bonus attack on a 6+; or a 5+ with their icon for +10 pts. that's before counting combos like: character auras, psychic buffs, and command points.

Mono-Slaanesh fight the same as always. Fast units: flying DP's, Fiends, Seekers, Chariots, Maulerfiends, Raptors and Bike race up the board to draw fire and lock down shooting units. While slower units come in out of reserves in support. Only it's even better in that now that Chaos Marines finally has scatter mitigation, and worse that you can no longer drop daemons wherever you like. But we have much more flexibility with Daemonic Ritual. Need a few fiends to lock that character or shooting unit in combat? I personally, intend to recreate might old Lustwing army with terminators, and oblits coming in turn one. While the fast assaulter rush up a flank. Then turn two the attached Lord and Sorcerer with the terminator drop mass summon to support the assault. With either Havoks, Noise Marines or some Predators as support.

I'm not too worried about mono-Slaanesh CSM. The nice thing about CSM is that going mono-God doesn't lose you access to most of the units in the codex. Going mono with daemons does though. We have almost zero shooting and alot of our old tricks for dealing with heavy dakka (like invisibility) no longer exist, so I kind of wonder how we'll get around that.

Quick aside: Anyine want to clarify the soul grinders warp claw ability? Do we basically get double attacks with it? Aa

Lowhole wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Lets pretend that I don't use rhinos, and that I am not really a fan of land raiders.

How do I get my zerkers into combat without losing like all of them to shooting?

You are going to have to tie up the shooters so the zerkers can get there. Tough units that can stick around for a while and get in quick. Even better: How do you feel about dreadclaws?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lowhole wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Lowhole wrote:
What does everyone think about The Fallen it seems that you can take 4 special weapons 1 more special weapons or heavy weapon and a champion with a combi
so you could have 6 plasma/melta shots per unit which seems pretty good IMO, put them in rhinos and back them up with some havocs with ML and it may be fun to play

They would be good, but sadly Fallen can't ride in any vehicles for some reason. In the index where it discusses keywords, the last line says the fallen cannot replace the <legion> keyword. Now look at any CSM vehicle under transport. They say they can transport any <legion> infantry. It's dumb, but that's how it is.

They are the best backline infantry shooters though, just don't expect them to go anywhere.

well that is disappointing was thinking of doing a Fallen themed army

It might still be possible if forgeworld forgets to put the <legion> restriction on dreadclaws. I wouldn't bet on it, but then, I wouldn't bet against it either.

meh, wouldn't want to go that rout anyways

was hoping to run something like cypher 3 units of fallen in rhinos chaos lord 3 units of havocs and some filler but that idea is out the window now
it would have been fun to play and would have been something different on tabel top that you dont usually see

Could always just not use Fallen datasheet, use Chaos Space Marines or even Loyalists, and add Cypher in.

On the note on shooting big stuff. Against a multiwound T8 3+ the best bet by far seems to be LC havocs, doing 0,031 Wounds per point. The runner up is a LC pred, which would do 0.25 wounds per point. After that most things seem to be under 0.02 wounds per point, the lowest is Tripple Ectoplasma Forgefiends at 0.008 Wounds per point, which is even lower than Cultists, who are at 0.011 wounds per point.

Things i noticed while doing calculations are:
AP is super important. Basicly going from 0 ap to -2 ap doubles the amount of wounds going through against 3+
Higher S than T is super important, but other than that only at certain steps are important. Going from S5 to S7 does nothing against T8, so HvB havocs are actually better than AC havocs, due to having twice the amount of shots and half damage (so that evens out) while being 40 points cheaper.

Raw/Unreadable data:

Quick note on deployment - as mentioned above, putting your guys in teleportarium/ orbit counts as a deployed unit.

Unsure on this - but given you could put two 5-man units in a rhino - deploying the rhino counts as a single unit deployed (whilst effectively giving you 3 units deployed at once) - is rhino/MSU/deepstrike a really good way to break the 'going first' rule?

And also getting to deploy after your opponent?