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dethric wrote: On the note on shooting big stuff. Against a multiwound T8 3+ the best bet by far seems to be LC havocs, doing 0,031 Wounds per point. The runner up is a LC pred, which would do 0.25 wounds per point. After that most things seem to be under 0.02 wounds per point, the lowest is Tripple Ectoplasma Forgefiends at 0.008 Wounds per point, which is even lower than Cultists, who are at 0.011 wounds per point.
Things i noticed while doing calculations are:
AP is super important. Basicly going from 0 ap to -2 ap doubles the amount of wounds going through against 3+
Higher S than T is super important, but other than that only at certain steps are important. Going from S5 to S7 does nothing against T8, so HvB havocs are actually better than AC havocs, due to having twice the amount of shots and half damage (so that evens out) while being 40 points cheaper.
*Fully Equipped Squads, but Boltguns does not shoot
**Missile Launcher not in calculation except for Wounds per point and point cost
I'm interested as to how this bears on the Power Sword vs Power Axe debate. You say that APand S>T is important, and this is exactly the Sword vs Axe difference. Is one substantially better than the other vs MEQs and TEQs?
World Eaters: 5780pts
Khorne Daemons: 3450pts
Chaos Knights: 2000pts
Sisters of Battle: 5000pts
Imperial Agents: 410pts
Gloomspite Gitz: 7190pts
Blades of Khorne Daemons: 3810pts
Skaven: 1090pts
Destruction Mercenaries: 470pts
Endless Spells and Incarnates: 1380pts
On daemons.
I played against a small list of Tzeentch daemons. They dish out mortal wounds.
Daemon Prince: picks on lonely fast moving units like bikes and warpspawn/daemonhosts that get ahead then jumping back into a pink horror unit.
Pink horrors: throw a bunch of dice and can do some wounds. Tzeentch Fish: Have become very weak as they die fast.
New things that started to get real good is:
Flocking enemy fliers with helldrake and gangbanging them to death.
Tonnes of power armoured dudes with all types of weapons with psyker support.
Spamming Hellbrutes now works as they are versatile and can kick things in cqc.
"Beyond that opening are my enemies. Behind me are warriors who would happily turn their weapons on me if they thought they could get away with it. Do you really think I'm doing this to try and impress anyone? I know who I am, and I don't give a greenskin's fart what anyone thinks of me."
- Honsou
I'm interested as to how this bears on the Power Sword vs Power Axe debate. You say that APand S>T is important, and this is exactly the Sword vs Axe difference. Is one substantially better than the other vs MEQs and TEQs?
Math inside:
Spoiler:
Assuming one hit with the following:
Power Sword: 4 points, S4, Ap -3 D1
Power Axe: 5 points, S5, Ap -2, D1
Gives:
Sword Against MEQ:
2/3 to hit, 1/2 to wound, 5/6 to pass armour, divided by point cost of four, gives 0.069 damage per point, 0.27 damage per swing.
Swords against TEQ:
2/3 to hit, 1/2 to wound, 2/3 to pass armour, divided by point cost of four gives 0.0555 damage per point, 0,22 damage per swing
Axe against MEQ :
2/3 to hit, 2/3 to wound, 2/3 to pass armour, divided by point cost of five gives 0,0592 damage per point 0,29 damage per swing.
Axe against TEQ 2/3 to hit, 2/3 to wound, 1/2 to pass armour, divided by point cost of five gives 0,0444 damage per point 0,22 damage per swing.
The Axe is better against MEQ in total wounds caused per axe, but the Sword does better damage per point.
Both are equal against TEQ, but the sword does better damage per point.
TLR: Swords seems better, but if you have <5 points left at the end, upgrade up to 4 swords to axes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/05 11:22:27
This silence offends Slaanesh! Things will get loud now!
SeraphimXIX wrote: I'm not too worried about mono-Slaanesh CSM. The nice thing about CSM is that going mono-God doesn't lose you access to most of the units in the codex. Going mono with daemons does though. We have almost zero shooting and alot of our old tricks for dealing with heavy dakka (like invisibility) no longer exist, so I kind of wonder how we'll get around that.
Quick aside: Anyine want to clarify the soul grinders warp claw ability? Do we basically get double attacks with it? Aa
No. Warp claw is still 3 attacks total you just get two hit rolls per attack improving you chance to hit.
About Kairos, it looks like he doesn't have the 'Ephemeral Form' rule that all other Tzeentch Daemons have. Does this mean he only has a 5++? I'm going to miss him having that 3++ that he's had since 5th Ed. He was always one of my favorites. However, it does look like his CC abilities were solidly buffed.
Check out my list building app for 40K and Fantasy:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/576793.page
Debilitate wrote: What are peoples thoughts on Fiends of Slaanesh? They seem pretty good at 43 points for 3w with a 5++ and pack a wollop in melee.
The only real downside is that they come as single models for over $20 a pop... I was thinking about using 9 of them to escort a Chaos Lord on a steed.
Eh... There alright but a unit of 5 will only kill 4-5 marines on average. But they cost as much as 24 daemonettes, which kill 10-11 marines average, and have 9 more wounds. Or 11 Seekers with 7 more wounds. They're still useful in conjunction with other units with their preventing units from falling back. But they cost 8 pts more than last edition and they weren't great then. Going back to Daemonettes or Seekers vs Fiends. Their being T4 doesn't account for much, even 10 bolters in rapid fire range will kill 2 Fiends vs 7 Daemonettes or 3 Seekers; while costing 23 pts more. Finally, now that they have multi-damage weapons their better at killing vehicles and multi-wound models; against 1 wound models they're wasted.
CORRECTION:
Chaos Lords that take Daemonic Mounts gain the Daemon Keyword so they are effected auras that benefit their patrons daemons. But...it would waste their aura if they are taken in a Daemon unit, as their aura is effects <LEGION> not "DAEMON". So for example a Slaanesh Lord on a Steed near unit of Seekers and a mounted Herald would benefit from +1 strength; and the can advance and charge with a ~32" threat range. But only he would benefit from his re-rolling 1's to hit.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/11 08:12:12
What you guys thinking about summoning? the whole not moving thing seems to be a real PITA, however once summoned, i can't actually see anything that stops said summoned unit from moving as well as charging!
Another thing is it looks on the face of it you can summon if you are locked in close combat...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/05 15:04:05
The more i think about it, the more I feel like daemons got hit with the nerf bat pretty hard. More like beaten over the head with the nerf club. Brutalized with the nerf maul.
Completely removing free points was a good thing. Make no mistake about that. However, summoning was one of a handful of gimmicks keeping Daemons competitive. The pendulum has swung so far now that summoning seems like a completely fruitless endeavor. Coupled with the gutting, excuse me, reworking of the psychic phase, general lack of defensive synergy buffs, points increases, side graded offensive performance, loss of army wide deep strike (just when it finally became awesome too!) and near total lack of customization options. . . Well it doesn't look good.
I think there are some hidden tricks to it, like being able to do it in combat and the fact its any 'chaos' character that can summon.
If you have like a chaos lord in CC, hes not moving in the movement phase and 3d6 5 or under and you can place 10 blood letters nearby... from what i can see nothing stops them moving and then assaulting.
Did you guys notice that Death guard army lists can't take a lot of options that I would personally have expected?
Terminators, Havocs and Heldrakes come to mind especially. Any reason why this is? hopefully because these roles will be filled by new units that havent been announced yet.
What are good replacements using the death guard army list for these units?
What are people thinking about the loadout for Raptors? Do we think that Plasmaguns or Meltaguns are the way to go? I feel that while Plasma is better for CSM and Chosen, as they like a longer range, Raptors have the ability either to deep strike or fly in close and personal, making Meltas more attractive. Although whether they outperform plasma ... I'd be interested to hear what you guys think. And does it make a difference as to whether they're in 5x squads or 10x?
World Eaters: 5780pts
Khorne Daemons: 3450pts
Chaos Knights: 2000pts
Sisters of Battle: 5000pts
Imperial Agents: 410pts
Gloomspite Gitz: 7190pts
Blades of Khorne Daemons: 3810pts
Skaven: 1090pts
Destruction Mercenaries: 470pts
Endless Spells and Incarnates: 1380pts
dethric wrote: On the note on shooting big stuff. Against a multiwound T8 3+ the best bet by far seems to be LC havocs, doing 0,031 Wounds per point. The runner up is a LC pred, which would do 0.25 wounds per point. After that most things seem to be under 0.02 wounds per point, the lowest is Tripple Ectoplasma Forgefiends at 0.008 Wounds per point, which is even lower than Cultists, who are at 0.011 wounds per point.
Things i noticed while doing calculations are:
AP is super important. Basicly going from 0 ap to -2 ap doubles the amount of wounds going through against 3+
Higher S than T is super important, but other than that only at certain steps are important. Going from S5 to S7 does nothing against T8, so HvB havocs are actually better than AC havocs, due to having twice the amount of shots and half damage (so that evens out) while being 40 points cheaper.
*Fully Equipped Squads, but Boltguns does not shoot
**Missile Launcher not in calculation except for Wounds per point and point cost
For that price difference, the Predator wins hands down due to its toughness. If the Havocs take two wounds, they've lost a quarter of their lascannons. After five wounds, the Havocs are gone and the Predator will still be firing all 4 lascannons.
Wish I owned a single Chaos Pred. I'm not sure I've ever even seen one on the table.
SeraphimXIX wrote: I'm not too worried about mono-Slaanesh CSM. The nice thing about CSM is that going mono-God doesn't lose you access to most of the units in the codex. Going mono with daemons does though. We have almost zero shooting and alot of our old tricks for dealing with heavy dakka (like invisibility) no longer exist, so I kind of wonder how we'll get around that.
Quick aside: Anyine want to clarify the soul grinders warp claw ability? Do we basically get double attacks with it? Aa
No. Warp claw is still 3 attacks total you just get two hit rolls per attack improving you chance to hit.
This doesn't make since that is literally the same thing as just rerolling to hit with the warp sword except is worded completely differently.
SeraphimXIX wrote: I'm not too worried about mono-Slaanesh CSM. The nice thing about CSM is that going mono-God doesn't lose you access to most of the units in the codex. Going mono with daemons does though. We have almost zero shooting and alot of our old tricks for dealing with heavy dakka (like invisibility) no longer exist, so I kind of wonder how we'll get around that.
Quick aside: Anyine want to clarify the soul grinders warp claw ability? Do we basically get double attacks with it? Aa
No. Warp claw is still 3 attacks total you just get two hit rolls per attack improving you chance to hit.
Isn't that just "re-roll failed to hits with this weapon" then?
Like that's even how the ability for the item below it is written. What's the distinction between the two abilities?
Edit: Regarding summoning, it's not Totally useless. The thing about summoning is that unlike reinforcements there is no restriction for distance from enemy units.
So you can summon a unit like 5 inches away and then charge with it that very turn. Thats better then reinforcement.- the only downside is the chance of not getting your cast through.
As far as the overall state of daemons, we got needed heavily but it's mostly from the Rule of One and psychic powers in general being pretty underwhelming. We are a heavily psychic army and without powers alot of our stuff is basically generic horde type things. Grey Knights players I've been talking to are saying their army is having similar issues.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/05 16:29:31
Debilitate wrote: What are peoples thoughts on Fiends of Slaanesh? They seem pretty good at 43 points for 3w with a 5++ and pack a wollop in melee.
The only real downside is that they come as single models for over $20 a pop... I was thinking about using 9 of them to escort a Chaos Lord on a steed.
Eh... There alright but a unit of 5 will only kill 4-5 marines on average. But they cost as much as 24 daemonettes, which kill 10-11 marines average, and have 9 more wounds. Or 11 Seekers with 7 more wounds. They're still useful in conjunction with other units with their preventing units from falling back. But they cost 8 pts more than last edition and they weren't great then. Going back to Daemonettes or Seekers vs Fiends. Their being T4 doesn't account for much, even 10 bolters in rapid fire range will kill 2 Fiends vs 7 Daemonettes or 3 Seekers; while costing 23 pts more. Finally, now that they have multi-damage weapons their better at killing vehicles and multi-wound models; against 1 wound models they're wasted.\
I wouldn't take a Chaos Lord with a unit of daemons anyway since it wastes his aura ability. But it you really wanted to, a Lord on a steed can at least advance and charge along with a unit of Seekers.
Thanks. I was planning on using them as sponges for the Lord (since Bikes don't seem quite as good at that this time around) while some Noise Marines or CSM in Rhino's followup and eventually get out to receive the Lord's buff. Sounds like Seekers or Daemonettes (especially Daemonettes - you can get a huge amount of them for not a lot of points) might be the way to go.
SeraphimXIX wrote: I'm not too worried about mono-Slaanesh CSM. The nice thing about CSM is that going mono-God doesn't lose you access to most of the units in the codex. Going mono with daemons does though. We have almost zero shooting and alot of our old tricks for dealing with heavy dakka (like invisibility) no longer exist, so I kind of wonder how we'll get around that.
Quick aside: Anyine want to clarify the soul grinders warp claw ability? Do we basically get double attacks with it? Aa
No. Warp claw is still 3 attacks total you just get two hit rolls per attack improving you chance to hit.
Isn't that just "re-roll failed to hits with this weapon" then?
Like that's even how the ability for the item below it is written. What's the distinction between the two abilities?
Edit: Regarding summoning, it's not Totally useless. The thing about summoning is that unlike reinforcements there is no restriction for distance from enemy units.
So you can summon a unit like 5 inches away and then charge with it that very turn. Thats better then reinforcement.- the only downside is the chance of not getting your cast through.
As far as the overall state of daemons, we got needed heavily but it's mostly from the Rule of One and psychic powers in general being pretty underwhelming. We are a heavily psychic army and without powers alot of our stuff is basically generic horde type things. Grey Knights players I've been talking to are saying their army is having similar issues.
Of course summoning has a range limitation. 12" from the summoner, 9" away from enemies
Summoning also happens at the END of the movement phase, so summoned units can definitely NOT move or advance. It follows the exact same rules as deep strike/teleport etc.
There are three main benefits of summoning. First, you can list tailor on the fly just like you could in 7th. This isn't that interesting in pick up or friendly games but gets important when thinking about more competitive settings. The second is letting your Daemons semi-deep strike. At the worst this lets you avoid the first turn of shooting. Finally, you can have your army built on the <Legion> keyword and still take Daemons, but without the codices this doesn't matter yet.
I'm wondering if Cypher and the Fallen might be viable even without being able to ride in a transport. I would think at the very least Fallen might be a slightly cheaper alternative to Chosen, and Cypher himself seems pretty nasty for his points. You could even take a whole Vanguard detachment of Fallen (Cypher and 3 units) and get a command point from it.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 12 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
Mr_Rose wrote: Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
Well the thing is the summoning rules do not say the end of 'the' movement phase they say 'thier' movement phase referencing the character making the ritual.
There is a small raw argument there it's not the movement phase as a whole.
Latro_ wrote: Well the thing is the summoning rules do not say the end of 'the' movement phase they say 'thier' movement phase referencing the character making the ritual.
There is a small raw argument there it's not the movement phase as a whole.
The rulebook explicitly states that they use their entire movement phase when they are deployed. You can absolutely not move or advance after arriving from reserves.
luke1705 wrote: Lets pretend that I don't use rhinos, and that I am not really a fan of land raiders.
How do I get my zerkers into combat without losing like all of them to shooting?
Large fast movers that are scary in CC (Mauler Fiends). Move everthing up, advance the enemy will take those things out first usually, or they will regret it later.
SeraphimXIX wrote: I'm not too worried about mono-Slaanesh CSM. The nice thing about CSM is that going mono-God doesn't lose you access to most of the units in the codex. Going mono with daemons does though. We have almost zero shooting and alot of our old tricks for dealing with heavy dakka (like invisibility) no longer exist, so I kind of wonder how we'll get around that.
Quick aside: Anyine want to clarify the soul grinders warp claw ability? Do we basically get double attacks with it? Aa
No. Warp claw is still 3 attacks total you just get two hit rolls per attack improving you chance to hit.
This doesn't make since that is literally the same thing as just rerolling to hit with the warp sword except is worded completely differently.
Oh, I agree with you. But rolling to hit twice doesn't logical equate to attacking twice.
Loopstah wrote: Heldrakes with Baleflamer or Autocannon?
Forgefiends with Ectoplasma or Autocannon?
Is it worth sticking 2x 5 man Zerker squads in a Rhino to get extra plasma/ champ weapons rather than one 10 man squad?
Are possessed worth taking now?
Is anyone planning on sunmoning or just starting daemons on the board?
Ectoplasma is bad on FFs, I would take autocannons still. Predators with autocannon and lascannon sponsons fill the same role slightly better though imo.
2x5 man squads is slightly worse because of alternate activating. Even if you charge both units your opponent can use the counter attack stratagem after the first unit goes and kill the second unit before they strike. Also because units can overwatch multiple times, if they somehow kill the first unit then they get to fire at the second one as well.
Possessed are worse than Zerkers unless you think you'll need your invuln or you can benefit from buffs that affect <Daemons>
TonyH122 wrote: What are people thinking about the loadout for Raptors? Do we think that Plasmaguns or Meltaguns are the way to go? I feel that while Plasma is better for CSM and Chosen, as they like a longer range, Raptors have the ability either to deep strike or fly in close and personal, making Meltas more attractive. Although whether they outperform plasma ... I'd be interested to hear what you guys think. And does it make a difference as to whether they're in 5x squads or 10x?
Hi.
I've used raptors with quite good results against (primaris) marines.
I've taken 2 units of 5 with dual plasma pistol on the champion and dual plasmagun. Paired with a cheap jump lord (with plasma pistol ) for that nice reroll when you decide to go nuts and overcharge everything, they can pack a punch. at 125 pts per unit its not bad. Just deepstrike 12" from the enemy and dakka them to death! With a lord support they defend themselves in melee (2 plasma pistols are still going to be a nuisance) but they are not a specialized melee unit, imo. You have warptalons for that.
A jump sorceror (warptime) with 10 warptalons is going to wreck faces!
About plasma or melta, i feel that it depends on who you face. BUT, since we can now splitfire, i'll be trying 2 units of 5 with 2 plasma pistols on champion and 2 meltaguns.
I honestly fail to see why we should take 10 raptors given that we can maximise special weapons with 5 models. Maybe at very high pointlevels, for contesting objectives?
Rydria wrote: What are peoples thoughts on power sword chosen ?
I'm very tempted to pick up some palatine blades and use them as such, with a 6th member carrying an icon.
Power sword chosen will be good. Take a unit of 10 and anyone who doesn't take a power sword takes a chainsword and bolt pistol. Stick them all in a Rhino and you've got a unit that can chew through MEQs and below for a reasonable price. A squad of 6 works too because you can take a Lord or Apostle along to improve your combat abilities.
It's also worth nothing that Fallen are almost identical to Chosen except that Chosen are 2ppm more expensive and have the <Legion> keyword.
I'm wondering what people are thinking for their ranged fire support? The options seem to be Predators, Forgefiends and Havocs with missiles/lascannons or maybe autocannons. I'm thinking Predators with the autocannon and lascannon sponsons as it's more survivable than the Havocs and has better damage than the Forgefiend.
Not sure if anyone else noticed this, but it looks like the melee weapon wording is slightly different between The Fallen and Chosen.
Both have the option to replace any bolters with chainswords, but Chosen can replace up to 4 bolters with melee weapons while Fallen can take up to 4 melee weapons (no replacement).
If (and still not sure why) you wanted a CC-oriented Fallen unit, it looks like the 4 choosing from the melee list would hang onto their bolters, while Chosen would give them up.
Iron warriors 3000pt
R: Swords seems better, but if you have <5 points left at the end, upgrade up to 4 swords to axes.
~15000 Astra Militarum: 
~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: 
~1900 | Imperial Knights: 
~2000 | Sisters of Battle: 
~3500 | Leagues of Votann: 
~1200 | Tyranids: 
~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: 
) for that nice reroll when you decide to go nuts and overcharge everything, they can pack a punch. at 125 pts per unit its not bad. Just deepstrike 12" from the enemy and dakka them to death! With a lord support they defend themselves in melee (2 plasma pistols are still going to be a nuisance) but they are not a specialized melee unit, 
given that we can maximise special weapons with 5 models. Maybe at very high pointlevels, for contesting objectives?
