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str00dles1 wrote:
How does summoning work with Points? Sorry if I missed it but only say in the book it talks about 3d6 power level.

every unit has a power level (basically like pts-lite) even in matched play you use this value to summon. You need to get equal to or higher than it on 3d6

so 10 bloodletters are PL5

you roll 3 dice

if you add them up and its 5+ you can summon them in.

Anything you summon you have to purchase with pts beforehand e.g. in the case above you spend 90pts and you can deply them normally or reserve them to be summoned later in the battle

IIRC you set aside points while creating the army, you can't just put stuff either in reserve to summon or deploy them.

I see, so in Matched play with points, you will still use power level to summon daemons if you want. So odd, but thanks!

So I made a spreadsheet! It's terribly messy appropriately chaotic, and doesn't focus on the defence of the units - I assumed I am looking for anything that packs a punch.

There are some units I didn't check, especially named characters. And it's all mathhammer and theoryhammer, so it may turn out I missed a lot. Anyway, maybe it will be of some use?

Note: when I say than a unit is more durable / stronger than another, I mean it's stronger when you spend the same amount of points on both units. This way, cultists could be more durable than marines (they aren't, but that's a nice example).

Best HQ:

Sorcerer. Thanks to Smite and Hereticus spells, he's best against Save 2+, and is worth his points even when you don't think about other uses for his magic. About 50% better than Berzerkers against TEQ and vehicles, and Berzerkers are a benchmark unit here. Almost as durable as 5 Berzerkers with a fist (costing the same points). Durability can be doubled with a suit of Terminator armour and he's still worth it. The bike is also good.

Daemon Prince w/ malefic talons. In offence, almost as good as Berzerkers against TEQ (and, when it comes to Khorne princes, against vehicles, too), and more durable than them. Overall better than default marines at most things, with PSI and buffs as an added bonus.

Dark Apostle, for the hit rerolls (especially good for units hitting on 4+ - power fist marines, cultists, damaged vehicles).

Epidemius, if you play a Plaguebearer army. If all his boons are activated, Plaguebearers become the single most powerful unit in the index (as long as Epidemius lives).

Best troops:

Berzerkers, if you play World Eaters. Preferably with sword + axe or sword + pistol. Compared to marines, twice as good vs GEQ, thrice as good vs MEQ. If you keep them in MSU with power fists for sergeants, about twice as good vs GEQ and MEQ, and better than havocs with melta against TEQ, and as good as them against heavy armour (at the same time, twice as durable as melta havocs).

Tzaangors. As good as Berzerkers vs GEQ and MEQ, twice as many bodies, twice less durable. Don't work against heavy armour.

Marines with boltguns. Twice to thrice weaker than Berzerkers against infantry, useless against armour unless given special weapons (I suggest plasma if you can get rerolls). Around half more durable than the Berzerkers (because for the same points, you can get more of them). But they can shoot, while all the units above need to get to meele. After all, though, they're still marines, so probably there are better units around somewhere (my pessimism tells me, probably in other factions).

Cultists with autoguns. Compared to marines, worse against GEQ, better against MEQ, with less armour, but more wounds. But the Guard are better in every way.

Daemonettes seem great, but yeah, they probably won't live to get these bonus attacks for large numbers.

Best elites:

Again, Berzerkers.

Chosen equipped with power fists are the best anti-armour unit in the codex (almost twice as good as berzerkers with fists), but cost a lot. For the points of a fully equipped 5-man unit, you could buy 10 berzerkers or around 15 marines. But you could give them Rhinos, they would cost even more, but against armour, they would still have an edge when compared to Berzerkers.

Close combat helbrutes (preferably with dual fists) are good against 2+, around the melta Havocs levels, and they are more durable. They are still on lascannon Havoc levels when equipped with a fist and a useless secondary weapon, e.g. a multimelta.

Best fast attack

Spawn may be decent, better than marines at most of their jobs, and very good against TEQ (to the level of melta havocs).

As other posters noted, Heldrake is nice for its speed.

Best heavy support attack

Havocs armed with melta or plasma seem good, and havocs with lascannons are the most efficient anti-armour shooting unit.

Predator is looking like the best tank, and by this I mean, about as good at anti armour as it's points' worth of marines squads with plasma. I don't know if it's more durable.

Lords of War

Knights and Lords of Skulls dish out more damage in meele than any other heavily armoured vehicle I checked, even after taking into account their point values, so I guess they're pretty good.

Some random things I disliked

Chaos Lords, Heldrake's damage output, Possessed (but maybe, with Epidemius...), Chosen with guns, Poxwalkers (even when buffed), plague drones and nurglings (but maybe they may do something as tarpits?), havocs with autocannons and heavy bolters, Soul Grinders, Defilers, Forgefiends.

~~~

again - this is based on offence, not on e.g. capability of being a good tarpit. And it is undiluted mathhammer, so please don't trust it too much

Loving the Malefic talon prince myself. My metal nurgle prince had an accident a while back with the huge cleaver and I fitted him with a gnarled Claw instead. I always felt iffy about the "counts as" aspect of all the relics. I'm a strict WYSIWYG person (in my own army) who will convert certain wargear out f any random bitz I have lying around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry if it was asked earlier in the thread, but what are people equipping Helbrutes with? I have one with a Reaper Autocannon, missile Launcher but changes to heavy weapons makes even the heavy bolter an interesting option.

Im considering a new build for a brute babysitter to cover for my Havocs. I have the HB, RAC, and Twin Las bitz leftover to do some converting. Definitely think the stock MM option is too bland.

Thank you @dethric for the attention! So I guess predator is the way to go, with a prince near and prescience on it gets pretty cheesy! I also can confirm that berzerkers + dark apostle is really good, unfortunately I suppose we require at least 2 or 3 units of them, in rhino, to be effective against the most shooty armies!

Loving the stats.

Anything for rubricae/ scarab occult?
Want to know if the improved shooting and durability is close to worth the cost bump for meh sorceror

From my personal experience attacking tanks with Berzerkers: the only one who would hurt it is the champ with a power fist and even then you most likely wouldn't do significant damage to it. The other members of the team might, collectively, do one or two additional wounds, while the power fist does maybe 4-6 wounds. You might be able to slip all your units around it so it can't escape, but now you're spending two-three turns killing a tank when you could have taken out an infantry squad every turn instead. Berzerkers aren't a swiss army knife and cost waaaaay too many points to be made into one with a power fist. Three plasma pistols and chainxes for all + icon is where I draw the line with mine. A unit of 8 cost 167 with that wargear and that is hard to swallow when anything toughness 7+ is going to shrug off the unit no matter how much I swing at it. I'm still trying to decide if I want Rhinos or not since I also take Helbrutes and they tend to soak up a lot of the enemy fire regardless.

I didn't look at the Dark Apostle before because it's more of a Word Bearers thing, but he's the second cheapest HQ with base wargear barely more expensive than a Chaos Lord and has a great leadership bubble effect.

Berzerkers may not be the best tank killers, but what would be better at doing that job? Besides Chosen with fists and sorcerers, I don't see any other contenders, and these two don't feel like a good idea for anti-tank.

My Helbrute with a Power Fist and Power Scourge took off a lot of wounds from my friend's Knight. I even forgot to add an attack for double melee weapons. Melee Helbrutes are my go-to for tank killing. Used to be Maulerfiends but their price increase and degrading stats has turned me off from them....

HOWEVER, as I typed the above I decided to look back on Maulers and look for synergy. A Mauler supported by a nearby Jugger Herald of Khorne and a Deamon Prince will be rerolling 1s and gain +1 strength in combat. Helbrutes would only get the rerolls. Makes me a little more accepting of the Mauler's price tag, plus they're pretty fast to boot.

Right! I keep forgetting about the daemon and daemon engine synergy.

I'm running a Khorne army and had a look to see what had the Daemon and Khorne keywords in the CSM army list, for getting the +1 Str from Heralds, as they are pretty cheap HQ options to spread about.

Possessed would be S6.
Forgefiends + Maulerfiends would be S7.
Defilers would be S9.
Daemon Princes would be S8.
Lord of Skulls would be S11!
Mutilators would be S7-9.
Heldrakes would be S8.
Warp Talons would be S5.

Realistically, Heralds could reliably effect Possessed, -Fiends, Defilers, Princes, and Lord of Skulls. Mutilators would be deep striking, Heldrakes should be harassing the edges of the enemy army or their entrenched units, and Warp Talons would be deep striking. But yeah, there's a lot of synergy for such a cheap unit (Heralds of Khorne are 58 points people, 58 POINTS).

I'm definitely going to think about getting myself a Khornemower now that they are viable. I actually like the model despite the negativity toward it. Some of the weapons seem really expensive though.

Regarding getting buffs/auras from Daemon Heralds as CSM(Heretic Astartes):



As much as i wish they would...

I don't think it works, auras only target "Faction Keywords" otherwise the wording in the CSM Prince makes no sense at all and why would they target Faction Keywords for Daemons and Keywords in CSM?

Edit: I am wrong see below.
Halleluja, Khorne here i come.

As long as it has a "KHORNE" and "DAEMON" keyword it is good. Faction keywords are just keywords that limit detachment building, they are otherwise referenced the same as any other keyword.

I don't really see your point. Faction Keywords are how you create your Battle-Forged Army, however both sections are Keywords. A CSM Deamon Prince is still a Khorne Deamon, just like Possessed can be Khorne Deamons with a bunch of other keywords.

DAMN YOU LOOPSTAH

Loopstah wrote:
As long as it has a "KHORNE" and "DAEMON" keyword it is good. Faction keywords are just keywords that limit detachment building, they are otherwise referenced the same as any other keyword.

Hm.
I am checking some other stuff right now and your interpretation makes more sense in light of for example the GK special rule regarding reroll to wound against Daemons.
Which wouldn't trigger against Daemons from Codex Daemons at all if i go by my line of thinking.

Edit:

I am wrong(YES, happy about that). P. 175 Main Rulebook, Faction keywords are also keywords.

So with no more specialist weapons bonus, and powerfists being clunky, what do we think of the tried and true Fisti-claw biker lord for 8th?

Jump packs have their advantages now, but the bike will still put us in the 5+ to wound threshold with a majority of attacks, so bikes are still worth consider.

Is it worth keeping the fist, or trade it out for a Lightning claw and get that extra attack?

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
So with no more specialist weapons bonus, and powerfists being clunky, what do we think of the tried and true Fisti-claw biker lord for 8th?

Jump packs have their advantages now, but the bike will still put us in the 5+ to wound threshold with a majority of attacks, so bikes are still worth consider.

Is it worth keeping the fist, or trade it out for a Lightning claw and get that extra attack?

I would think it might still be worth it to keep the fist since it can damage even many big things on a 3+. It also does D3 damage, whereas the claw only does 1 if I'm not mistaken. The claw could be more useful against weedy enemies with only one wound, though, which is why taking both may continue to work well.

Yea, i did just realize hitting 3s, re-roll ones is still pretty good for a number of attacks. I suppose i wont be hacking off anyones arms just yet.

Here's another idea, Comb/twin bolters seem much more useful than a pistol on lets say Lords and Sorcerers who will usually only have 1 melee weapon that isnt just a Chainsword. Much like my Ork Nobz who always take the Shoota, I would always take a cheap rapid2 combi-bolter at least.

I've always wanted to build an Emperors Children army. And those sonic blasters look pretty punishing what with the 24 inches of 3 shots each, even after advancing! The firing off a shot as they die seems pretty amazing too. The only thing I dont like is the blast masters high cost. Can anyone justify 28 points for that, and also what would you support this unit with? I would imagine cultist meat shields to keep the more combat oriented armies away from them and some kind of anti armor.

Has anyone else noticed you can now put meltas or plasma guns on rhinos? Sure they're more expensive but now after you unload your 10 berserkers you can go tank hunting with the rhinos instead of just sitting around plinking away with bolster shots... Makes me slightly more worth the investment imo and gives the other guy 3 more things to worry about...

Cindis wrote:
Has anyone else noticed you can now put meltas or plasma guns on rhinos? Sure they're more expensive but now after you unload your 10 berserkers you can go tank hunting with the rhinos instead of just sitting around plinking away with bolster shots... Makes me slightly more worth the investment imo and gives the other guy 3 more things to worry about...

I'v always put plasma and melta combi weapons on rhinos! they're awesome now.
Extra CB for 2pts aint to shabby either .. 8 shots at 12"

 skybax wrote:
Berzerkers may not be the best tank killers, but what would be better at doing that job? Besides Chosen with fists and sorcerers, I don't see any other contenders, and these two don't feel like a good idea for anti-tank.

Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut with a Power Fist and a Plasma Pistol is only 158 points and would do about 7 wounds at turn to a T8 3+ Model.

With chaos's lack of sniper units (aside from the heldrake :p), what are people's thoughts on solo character-murderers?
I was thinking it would be advisable to take 1 or 2 cheap jumppack lords armed with powerfists. Deep strike in alone, out of LOS (in a building or something), then jump out next turn to try and punch a character in the face (then die horribly).
Think it's worth the 100 or so points to decapitate the enemy synergy bubble and wreck some havok?

Kharn and Berzerkers have the 'Blood for the Blood God'...Does that mean they go twice in a row, in the fight phase, or would they go once, then the enemy unit goes, then they go again?

 Latro_ wrote:

Cindis wrote:
Has anyone else noticed you can now put meltas or plasma guns on rhinos? Sure they're more expensive but now after you unload your 10 berserkers you can go tank hunting with the rhinos instead of just sitting around plinking away with bolster shots... Makes me slightly more worth the investment imo and gives the other guy 3 more things to worry about...

I'v always put plasma and melta combi weapons on rhinos! they're awesome now.
Extra CB for 2pts aint to shabby either .. 8 shots at 12"

Oh gak didn't realize that wasn't a new thing - never seen a chaos rhino on the table before haha

Has anyone else noticed that you can put combi-bolters on your fallen for only 2 PPM?
That's 16 points for a MEQ with 4 bolter shots at close range.

It's a shame they can't use transports, as they are not a <Legion> Infantry or <Chapter> infantry.
Noone wants to let him go along with....

Edit : Fabious can't ride either... how sad.

What I can't tell is whether or not it's intended for so many units to be locked out of transports. The cynic in me says that it's a result of GW accidentally being too restrictive with their keywords, but I dunno.