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So played my first 8th ed game yesterday my iron warriors with gatling knight vs my mates SM army.

Some things noticed:
- Smite and infernal gaze working in tandem is sweet! spewing out mortal wounds on a simple 5 on two dice is nasty!
- Obilterators were totally underwhelming, i ended up even using cmd point re-rolls to not make them suck so much. They feel like their guns should be more like assault 3 or even 4! For their points i could of had another 8 havocs with 4 lascannons.
- Lascannon havocs were pretty good, took ages to kill a land raider though. Getting high on the damage rolls is were its at.
- Knight was mvp, seemed a lot more durable and scary. 24 gatling shots with the 2 dmg are nice... one turn i wiped out a squad of 6 termintors in one volley. Also heavy flamers are nothing to be sniffed at!
- Was a bit disappointed with rhinos, just seemed to die as easily as they have done in the past. Not firing out of them also sucks, i'm wondering if they are even worth it. Mortal wounds on a 1 are also pretty harsh, i lost two rhinos and of the 18 marines in both 5 died from 1's
- Helbrute and his dreads (he had 3!) seemed a bit meh also. The fact if they move it reduces the BS on heavy weps feels annoying, mine just died to a twin lascannon from a razorback in one round of shooting.
- Battleshock only seemed to become anything close to a thing when loosing 3-4 marines
- Overwatch can be surprisingly scary now everything can do it, not fun charging a LR redeemer when it has 2d6 s6 flamer shots an 12 assault cannon shots at you.

Aw. I wanted Helbrutes to be awesome. I feel like they should be a mobile weapons platform :(

Gonna try out my khorne one next fist and scourge
Helbrutes probably better off as combat units

The above has 4 s12 -3 3 attacks then 3 s8 -1 2 attacks and 4 bolter shots before charging in.

Can't you fire all your guns if you have more than 1?
If so, why would chaos bikers ever want to replace their combi-bolter with a combi-flamer when can instead just take a flamer and keep the combi-bolter

You still pay the 2 points for the combibolter so if you are on a budget…

macluvin wrote:
You still pay the 2 points for the combibolter so if you are on a budget…

Point for point, the 2 point combi-bolter is one of the best upgrades any marine can make.
I've been working on a spreadsheet that shows the point efficiency of units.
The analysis shows that the 2 points you can spend on a combi-bolter or 11 for a havoc launcher are always worth it.

In fact, Chaos Rhinos with 2 combi-bolters and a havoc launcher make surprisingly cost-effective gunboats.
Up close they are throwing out 8 bolter dice, and ~3.5 shots form the havoc missile launcher.

You can also take 1 combi-bolter, and 1 combi-flamer for 6 bolter shots, 3.5 havoc shots, and 3.5 flamer shots all from your transport.

Also model options, part of me seems to remember old bikers had a weapon that kinda replaced the bolters.

I only just realised they had 2 wounds each! kinda makes up for jink

and 20" advance whooooosh

labmouse42 wrote:Can't you fire all your guns if you have more than 1?
If so, why would chaos bikers ever want to replace their combi-bolter with a combi-flamer when can instead just take a flamer and keep the combi-bolter

It might just be a legacy thing where they know people might have some of their bikers modeled that way, so they didn't want to invalidate their models.

macluvin wrote:You still pay the 2 points for the combibolter so if you are on a budget…

A combi-bolter(2) + flamer(9) is the same points cost as a single Combi-flamer(11), so i'd just buy the extra flamer whenever I could.

Does Epidemius work with Nurgle Oblits, Talons, Mutliators, and other marked daemon units in CSM?

His rules state any Nurgle Daemon, and Nurgle Daemons all have two separate key words, Daemon and Nurgle. Mark of Chaos replaces <Mark of Chaos> with keywords Nurgle, Khorne, Tzeench, or Slanesh....

 sfshilo wrote:
Does Epidemius work with Nurgle Oblits, Talons, Mutliators, and other marked daemon units in CSM?

His rules state any Nurgle Daemon, and Nurgle Daemons all have two separate key words, Daemon and Nurgle. Mark of Chaos replaces <Mark of Chaos> with keywords Nurgle, Khorne, Tzeench, or Slanesh....

don't see why not, the keywords match...

you also have:
CSM sorcerer on palanquin
CSM possessed
Heldrakes
Maulefiends
Forgefiends
Defilers
Bloat Drones
CSM daemon prince





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just reading the land raider entry, you can put jump troops in it now.

So 5 talons or raptors in one might work?
move forward 10" then next turn you have 2.9" then a 12"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing i just noticed olde fabius bill

Can enhance heretic astates infantry units
Roll a dice for all members of the target unit on a 6 they get a mortal wound.
Then roll a d3 (+1s or +1a or +1t)

cultists are heretic astates infantry XD
take a unit of 40 of them or 20 poxwalkers or even 30 tzaangors

fun times XD

Hooooly I didn't know being on the mounts gives you the Deamon keyword now, that is huge. Juggerlords near Heralds plus a Power Maul = +2 to hit, +2 to wound MEQ and TEQ. Wounding Dreads and the like on +3, tanks and titans on +4. Not too shabby, a Herald on a Jugger plus Juggerlord is only like 250 after upgrades, could be a pretty strong roving hammer. Screen with Flesh Hounds or Spawn and baby, you've got a stew going.

Also: I've used melee Helbrutes in three games now and christ allmighty they are amazing. 5 powerfist attacks hitting on +3 because NO ADDED MISS CHANCE ON HELBRUTES, plus the additional 3 Power Scourge attacks. My Helbrute knocked a Knight Titan down 6-8 points, and in another game he took an Avatar of Khane down to one wound (Avatars get 5+ invul followed by a 5+ FnP). Oh, and if you take damage in the fight phase and roll 6 on crazed you can fight again with all those juicy attacks. My Helbrutes do about 100% more work than my Maulerfields on average while being a lot squishier. I'll gladly take a glass cannon than a dud hitter anyday.

Its 4 attacks + 3 for the scourge no?

Plus and extra attack for having two melee weapons. 11 attacks if it is possible to equip two power scourges

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Plus an extra attack for having two melee weapons.

Pretty sure that's not a thing anymore

Boogles wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Plus an extra attack for having two melee weapons.

Pretty sure that's not a thing anymore

ah no they right +1 attack if you have two mele is a helbrute spec rule, just assumed it was 2 fists... wow they really are good

 Latro_ wrote:

Boogles wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Plus an extra attack for having two melee weapons.

Pretty sure that's not a thing anymore

ah no they right +1 attack if you have two mele is a helbrute spec rule, just assumed it was 2 fists... wow they really are good

dats right me friendos: 8 attacks (5 fist, 3 scourge), and a nearby lord to reroll ones to hit. It's also a vehicle so you can repair it with a warpsmith within 1 inch. Melee Helbrutes are legit.

Boogles wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Plus an extra attack for having two melee weapons.

Pretty sure that's not a thing anymore

Did you read the Helbrute's rules are are you making an assumption?

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Boogles wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Plus an extra attack for having two melee weapons.

Pretty sure that's not a thing anymore

Did you read the Helbrute's rules are are you making an assumption?

nevermind, i thought you just meant in general

Honestly two power scourges wouldn't be worth it even for the extra three attacks. It's only strength 8 whereas powerfist is 12. I'd much rather hit vehicles harder than softer.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Honestly two power scourges wouldn't be worth it even for the extra three attacks. It's only strength 8 whereas powerfist is 12. I'd much rather hit vehicles harder than softer.

It depends on what you are going up against. Geq, Meq, or Teq squad, gimme those scourges.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
Honestly two power scourges wouldn't be worth it even for the extra three attacks. It's only strength 8 whereas powerfist is 12. I'd much rather hit vehicles harder than softer.

It depends on what you are going up against. Geq, Meq, or Teq squad, gimme those scourges.

And against T7 the scourge and fist are both wounding on 3 anyways, so its good enough against armor

Boogles wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
Honestly two power scourges wouldn't be worth it even for the extra three attacks. It's only strength 8 whereas powerfist is 12. I'd much rather hit vehicles harder than softer.

It depends on what you are going up against. Geq, Meq, or Teq squad, gimme those scourges.

And against T7 the scourge and fist are both wounding on 3 anyways, so its good enough against armor

I ggguuueeesss but still I would rather charger Berzerkers at a blob (after soaking up overwatch with my Rhino) than my Helbrute. I'd much much prefer assaulting tanks with the Helbrute.

Oh, I also just realized Charge Phase is a Phase, meaning if you take an overwatch bullet, complete your charge, and then roll Crazed, you get to fight before the Fight Phase, meaning your Helbrute gets to attack twice before your opponent gets to do anything in combat (once in the Charge Phase and once in the Fight Phase).

Helbrutes: going from useless to one of the best melee options in 1 edition flat.

I don't know if it would work that way. The rule says immediately shoots or piles in after taking damage. To me that means in order to take advantage of getting crazed on overwatch, since it isn't within 1" yet, the brute would need a shooting attack.

Edit: never mind, it says at the end of the phase, so yeah, that seems like it would work. So concieveably, if it got wounded overwatch and in combat, and got a craze s result each time, it could fight four times in one round. I would like to see that happen just once.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I don't know if it would work that way. The rule says immediately shoots or piles in after taking damage. To me that means in order to take advantage of getting crazed on overwatch, since it isn't within 1" yet, the brute would need a shooting attack.

Edit: never mind, it says at the end of the phase, so yeah, that seems like it would work.

and a good use for a cmd point re-roll

Am I reading the helbrute power scourge right that if I use all 4 Attacks it's multiplied by 3 to 12 attacks!?

 buddha wrote:
Am I reading the helbrute power scourge right that if I use all 4 Attacks it's multiplied by 3 to 12 attacks!?

This is incorrect. This is not the same as Titanic Feet which specifically says 1 attack splits into 3 attacks. Scourge just says add three attacks.

 buddha wrote:
Am I reading the helbrute power scourge right that if I use all 4 Attacks it's multiplied by 3 to 12 attacks!?

Afraid not, it's a souped-up chainsword in this respect.

If you have a single scourge you can make 7 attacks (4 base, 3 specifically from scourge).
If you have two scourges you get 11 attacks (5 base attacks due to Battering Onslaught, 3 from one scourge, 3 from the other scourge).

Unless I'm missing something.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Can't you fire all your guns if you have more than 1?
If so, why would chaos bikers ever want to replace their combi-bolter with a combi-flamer when can instead just take a flamer and keep the combi-bolter

Infantry can only fire 1 gun in the shooting phase even if they have a bolter and bolt pistol. Meaning they cant fire both bolter and pistol.

Bikers might be treated the same way. Even if a biker has a bolter, bolt pistol, and the combi bolter mounted on the bike, that biker can only pick one if these guns to shoot in the shooting phase.

Vehicles and mc such as dreds and preds get to shoot all guns at different targets in the shooting phase.

Am i right or am i wrong? 8th ed rules are still new to me.

 CadianGateTroll wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Can't you fire all your guns if you have more than 1?
If so, why would chaos bikers ever want to replace their combi-bolter with a combi-flamer when can instead just take a flamer and keep the combi-bolter

Infantry can only fire 1 gun in the shooting phase even if they have a bolter and bolt pistol. Meaning they cant fire both bolter and pistol.

Bikers might be treated the same way. Even if a biker has a bolter, bolt pistol, and the combi bolter mounted on the bike, that biker can only pick one if these guns to shoot in the shooting phase.

Vehicles and mc such as dreds and preds get to shoot all guns at different targets in the shooting phase.

Am i right or am i wrong? 8th ed rules are still new to me.

Everyone can fire all their weapons. Pistols have a special rule that only allows them to be fired by itself.
"each time a model equipped with both a pistol and another type of ranged weapon shoots, it can either shoot with it's pistol(s) or with all of it's other weapons."

So bikers can fire their bolter and the mounted combi bolter?