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Weird rules question: the Kharybdis Assault Claw has the Drop Pod Assault rule, meaning when it drops in all models embarked inside must immediately disembark within 3 inches. Now, the Embark rules on page 183 of the rulebook state that if all models in a unit end their move within 3 inches of a friendly transport, they can embark within it. The models that just disembarked the drop pod have ended their move.

So, does this mean I can just leave them in and let my opponent know they exited then reentered the pod? It is technically during the "end of the movement phase", and the unit "ended their move within 3 inches". If this works this makes the Kharybdis even more powerful because you can drop it, charge it, then drop your bois out next turn for a far closer and more reliable charge.

Page 183 in the rulebook: "a unit cannot both embark and disembark in the same turn"

if you wanna avoid having to get out remember it has a decent move of 15". You do not 'have' to deploy it from reserve you could just set it up on the table then bomb it 15"+d6 the first turn.

If you setup first, get a decent deployment type and advance move you'll probably be able to get it where you would of done on the deep strike, troops tucked up inside.

So the Malefic Talon prince, how does CC work with him?
Talons give 3 extra attacks when you fight, and have a nice profile, what do you do about your remaining 4 attacks that the model has base? Are they just S7 ap- dmg1?

What makes it so much better than a sword and talons? Point cost?

nope, you jsut attack with the male talons they are a weapon afterall

basically you get 7 malefic talon attacks (8 if ye khorne)

they are comparable to the axe and sword because of the extra attacks... the no brainer is in the fact they are drastically less pts

 Latro_ wrote:
nope, you jsut attack with the male talons they are a weapon afterall

basically you get 7 malefic talon attacks (8 if ye khorne)

they are comparable to the axe and sword because of the extra attacks... the no brainer is in the fact they are drastically less pts

I had taken the extra clawed arms, Torso, and dorsal fins from the Daemon Prince kit and attached it to a serpentine body to built a second one for any Dark Apotheosis results and it turns out the back up prince build is much better than the full kit one now!

Sword and wings guy is a much better Counts as Belakor anyway.

This just in: Fire Raptors are terrifying and put out a crapload of shots the turn they come out. 16w is also rough to 1 round at -1 to hit.

I used the heavy bolter/hellfire variety at 362 pts

 Latro_ wrote:
nope, you jsut attack with the male talons they are a weapon afterall

basically you get 7 malefic talon attacks (8 if ye khorne)

they are comparable to the axe and sword because of the extra attacks... the no brainer is in the fact they are drastically less pts

Oh... Ooooh. Ok, so it's like a chainsword, not a mount attack. The wording on the power scourge threw me off because it is a little similar to mount attacks.I figured it only got 3 swings with the scourge.


Different topic, I ran 3 giant chaos spawn at 1000pt. They are amazing distractions and if they are not dealt with quickly they get out of control. Also they go berserk at 1-4 wounds, getting 2D6 S and 2D6 attacks. They are hilariously cheap, honestly I think they are cheaper than they were in 7th edition, and much better.

Played two games with An'ggrath today. Posting it here because although I had 2 units of brimstone horrors (khorne forgive me) the rest of the army was CSM. Took 5 quad heavy bolter batteries and 2 leviathan dreads with butcher cannons and the siege claw....still sad that I can't swap the second siege claw out for another butcher cannon, but them's the breaks. Oh also had a CSM lord to allow the gun base to re-roll 1's.

Things I learned over two games:

1) I roll a lot of 2's
2) An'ggrath is apparently not allowed to live past turn 2.
3) An'ggrath is a beast even when I fail 5/5 4++ saves, which apparently is every game at least once
4) 10/10 would take An'ggrath again
5) I need more Leviathans. They're like discount knights and just really good. Like 2 is plenty but I borrowed my friend's and I need my own
6) Quad Heavy bolters are great....unless there's so much terrain on the board that you can't see your hand in front of your face.
7) Still, heavy bolters are necessary. Or at least some sort of anti horde.
8) I need to remember that the Leviathan has a meltagun

Different topic, I ran 3 giant chaos spawn at 1000pt. They are amazing distractions and if they are not dealt with quickly they get out of control. Also they go berserk at 1-4 wounds, getting 2D6 S and 2D6 attacks. They are hilariously cheap, honestly I think they are cheaper than they were in 7th edition, and much better.

In my 3rd game i pulled out some normal chaos spawn, and boy were they fun. D6 attacks with -2 save, doing 2 damage a hit, they seemed pretty nasty. A damaged squad of 2 managed to assault Azrael and nearly killed him outright.

Ok, so how about Decimator daemon engine VS Hellbrute?

The decimator seems like it will be cheaper for both shooting, or melee, as well as more durable and faster. A scourge brute will have more attacks, but only S8, where the decimator is S9. Sure, the fist will be stronger though. The melee decimator also has 2 hellflamers, which are heavy flamers that deal 2 dmg.

The shooty decimator can have 8 butcher cannon shots (S8 assault cannon) OR what I think will become the favorite, 2 soulburner petards. Which will be 4D3 shots dealing mortal wounds. The point cost for this is the mid 100s. They are assault weapons, and with a 10" move, you will be able to avoid CC while pumping out 4D3 mortal wounds each turn.

Downside, only 24" on the soulburner.

 luke1705 wrote:
Played two games with An'ggrath today. Posting it here because although I had 2 units of brimstone horrors (khorne forgive me) the rest of the army was CSM. Took 5 quad heavy bolter batteries and 2 leviathan dreads with butcher cannons and the siege claw....still sad that I can't swap the second siege claw out for another butcher cannon, but them's the breaks. Oh also had a CSM lord to allow the gun base to re-roll 1's.

Things I learned over two games:

1) I roll a lot of 2's
2) An'ggrath is apparently not allowed to live past turn 2.
3) An'ggrath is a beast even when I fail 5/5 4++ saves, which apparently is every game at least once
4) 10/10 would take An'ggrath again
5) I need more Leviathans. They're like discount knights and just really good. Like 2 is plenty but I borrowed my friend's and I need my own
6) Quad Heavy bolters are great....unless there's so much terrain on the board that you can't see your hand in front of your face.
7) Still, heavy bolters are necessary. Or at least some sort of anti horde.
8) I need to remember that the Leviathan has a meltagun

Any more data on the Leviathans? How did the butcher cannons perform. What did you choose butcher over other options. How tanky or shooty did they feel. Did they perform well in CC?

Thx,

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Ok, so how about Decimator daemon engine VS Hellbrute?

The decimator seems like it will be cheaper for both shooting, or melee, as well as more durable and faster. A scourge brute will have more attacks, but only S8, where the decimator is S9. Sure, the fist will be stronger though. The melee decimator also has 2 hellflamers, which are heavy flamers that deal 2 dmg.

The shooty decimator can have 8 butcher cannon shots (S8 assault cannon) OR what I think will become the favorite, 2 soulburner petards. Which will be 4D3 shots dealing mortal wounds. The point cost for this is the mid 100s. They are assault weapons, and with a 10" move, you will be able to avoid CC while pumping out 4D3 mortal wounds each turn.

Downside, only 24" on the soulburner.

My opinion on these models in general, is that you are wasteful if you don't take both.

A weapon, and a gun. the difference btween one melee wepaon to two is merely 1 attack, so a weapon/gun setup is almost as good at CC, while still helping at shooting (until he reaches CC for example)

 BoomWolf wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Ok, so how about Decimator daemon engine VS Hellbrute?

The decimator seems like it will be cheaper for both shooting, or melee, as well as more durable and faster. A scourge brute will have more attacks, but only S8, where the decimator is S9. Sure, the fist will be stronger though. The melee decimator also has 2 hellflamers, which are heavy flamers that deal 2 dmg.

The shooty decimator can have 8 butcher cannon shots (S8 assault cannon) OR what I think will become the favorite, 2 soulburner petards. Which will be 4D3 shots dealing mortal wounds. The point cost for this is the mid 100s. They are assault weapons, and with a 10" move, you will be able to avoid CC while pumping out 4D3 mortal wounds each turn.

Downside, only 24" on the soulburner.

My opinion on these models in general, is that you are wasteful if you don't take both.

A weapon, and a gun. the difference btween one melee wepaon to two is merely 1 attack, so a weapon/gun setup is almost as good at CC, while still helping at shooting (until he reaches CC for example)

I believe you also lose the built in hellflamer which can be useful.

It's amazing that the dual-petard Decimator is only 150 points. Slap a cheap Chaos Lord on the table to escort it and the damn thing is averaging 6 mortal wounds a turn. Two can one-shot a Russ or chunk a horde unit every turn.

I want to take two and a blood slaughterer and run them up the board fething gak up. It's only 650 points for a Jump-Lord, warpsmith, two dakka-decimators and a Blood Slaughterer.

Currently converting my Khorne Berserkers for this edition. Thinking of running 20 in Rhinos. Should they be 2 squads of 10 or 4 of 5. Smaller squads means more power fists, but how valuable do people feel power fists actually are? Worth the points ? Just stick to 2? Don't take any?

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Ok, so how about Decimator daemon engine VS Hellbrute?

The decimator seems like it will be cheaper for both shooting, or melee, as well as more durable and faster. A scourge brute will have more attacks, but only S8, where the decimator is S9. Sure, the fist will be stronger though. The melee decimator also has 2 hellflamers, which are heavy flamers that deal 2 dmg.

The shooty decimator can have 8 butcher cannon shots (S8 assault cannon) OR what I think will become the favorite, 2 soulburner petards. Which will be 4D3 shots dealing mortal wounds. The point cost for this is the mid 100s. They are assault weapons, and with a 10" move, you will be able to avoid CC while pumping out 4D3 mortal wounds each turn.

Downside, only 24" on the soulburner.

The Decimator with melee weapons is more expensive (EDIT2: the decimator with claws + hellflamers is 184, you're better off with a Blood Slaughterer at 180 points) than the Helbrute with Fist/Scourge, and yeah the power fist hitting on 3's with the brute is brutal. The Decimator's flamers are better for hordes while the brute's cheapness and fistyness is better for "elites". Melee Helbrutes are often ignored because "oh that can't really hurt me till it gets here", and then it gets there and deals so much damage your opponent MUST deal with it.

My opinion on these models in general, is that you are wasteful if you don't take both.

A weapon, and a gun. the difference btween one melee wepaon to two is merely 1 attack, so a weapon/gun setup is almost as good at CC, while still helping at shooting (until he reaches CC for example)

It's wasteful on the Decimator, sure, but on the Helbrute it isn't just +1 attack, it's +1 PLUS the power scourge's +3, for a total of 8 attacks in close combat. For a single unit at 155 points to dish out that many attacks is nuts. I have flipped tanks, punched out Bullgryns, and whipped dreadnaughts in the face with my Helbrute. The thing is just a monster in combat with so many high strength high damage attacks hitting on 3s.

Asura Varuna wrote:
Currently converting my Khorne Berserkers for this edition. Thinking of running 20 in Rhinos. Should they be 2 squads of 10 or 4 of 5. Smaller squads means more power fists, but how valuable do people feel power fists actually are? Worth the points ? Just stick to 2? Don't take any?

Benefits of smaller squads.
More plasma pistols if you want
More power fists if you want
Squads can go after separate things
Opponent has to consider how to split their shooting.
Less morale concern.

Cons:
Harder to give buffs to your units via Prince or Lord.
More chances to be overwatched.
Losses hurt the smaller units a lot more than the larger ones.


Power Fists I don't really know, I haven't seen anyone do the math for them yet... Strength 10 power fist does seem pretty good, being fairly threatening to everything but it's quite expensive still.

2 soulburners is definitely an interesting proposition, range is a bit of an issue but with a 5+ Invulnerable and regeneration surviving isn't going to be tough

If you want to dish out mortal wounds, Hellforged Contemptors can have soulburners integrated into their CCWs. I'm vaguely considering two with Chainclaws and Soulburners accompanied by a Hellwright on abeyant - she can buff them and, being a character with 8 wounds, they'll usually be targeted first (with 5+ invulns and her healing them).

It's an expensive combo (the contemptors together are around the cost of a Knight) but that's a lot of Mortal Wounds being dished out

Charax wrote:
2 soulburners is definitely an interesting proposition, range is a bit of an issue but with a 5+ Invulnerable and regeneration surviving isn't going to be tough

If you want to dish out mortal wounds, Hellforged Contemptors can have soulburners integrated into their CCWs. I'm vaguely considering two with Chainclaws and Soulburners accompanied by a Hellwright on abeyant - she can buff them and, being a character with 8 wounds, they'll usually be targeted first (with 5+ invulns and her healing them).

It's an expensive combo (the contemptors together are around the cost of a Knight) but that's a lot of Mortal Wounds being dished out

Hi, the main upside of Decimators over Contemptors is that it is god damn DAEMON, thus receiving HUGE buff from hanging around Changeling (very dirty combo, don't try with friends).

Unfortunately it won't get +1 to the unvulnerable save like other tzeentch daemons and most tzeentchian vehicles, but on the other hand it still benefits from CSM keywords (rerolls around both magnus and belakor mainly, cause speed boost will likely be monopolized by Magnus, although I have doubts about his survivability).

Hellwright bonuses are minor to the shooting decimators list I think, but for Contemptors it is must have indeed!
But Conteptor with two deathclaws and two soulburners costs over9000 (almost 250pts). Per point Decimators spit much more mortal wounds, and behind the screen of brimstones they are unlikely to be tied in close combat.


Guys anyone sees through the insanity of chaos titans price tags?
1500 for Warhound is crazy!!! Three crusader knights cost less, but having double wound counts and almost triple damage output.
What's wrong with Forgeworld?

Yeah but as you kill them, they get weaker a lot faster. They don't have a 4++ in CC and against shooting, and you should really check out how macro weapons work (hint: if 3 knights go up against a warhound, I know who I've got my money on).

That 24" move means you LITERALLY ALWAYS GET THE CHARGE, which is a big deal too. Not saying it's a practical thing in a 2k game, but the point is that Forge World is actually sort of balancing their models for the points. I think any of the ones that I've seen so far are fair values for their points (and actually maybe a little bit better than index counterparts)

 luke1705 wrote:
Yeah but as you kill them, they get weaker a lot faster. They don't have a 4++ in CC and against shooting, and you should really check out how macro weapons work (hint: if 3 knights go up against a warhound, I know who I've got my money on).

That 24" move means you LITERALLY ALWAYS GET THE CHARGE, which is a big deal too. Not saying it's a practical thing in a 2k game, but the point is that Forge World is actually sort of balancing their models for the points. I think any of the ones that I've seen so far are fair values for their points (and actually maybe a little bit better than index counterparts)

I agree that FW stuff must be slightly overpriced.
But 1500 is almost double times above sanity level.

Could you elaborate about macro weapons a little bit? I have standart chaos warhound with plasma and bolter, for example as sold by FW.
Average shots from plasma are 7, which averages in 16 damage on TITANIC model if Knight fails all his invulnerable saves.
Average damage from bolter is 5-6 before saves.

It will take at least two turn to finish one knight in my set up, which brings another question, why all the weapons cost the same (0) despite obvious disparity.

Fan67 wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Yeah but as you kill them, they get weaker a lot faster. They don't have a 4++ in CC and against shooting, and you should really check out how macro weapons work (hint: if 3 knights go up against a warhound, I know who I've got my money on).

That 24" move means you LITERALLY ALWAYS GET THE CHARGE, which is a big deal too. Not saying it's a practical thing in a 2k game, but the point is that Forge World is actually sort of balancing their models for the points. I think any of the ones that I've seen so far are fair values for their points (and actually maybe a little bit better than index counterparts)

I agree that FW stuff must be slightly overpriced.
But 1500 is almost double times above sanity level.

Could you elaborate about macro weapons a little bit? I have standart chaos warhound with plasma and bolter, for example as sold by FW.
Average shots from plasma are 7, which averages in 16 damage on TITANIC model if Knight fails all his invulnerable saves.
Average damage from bolter is 5-6 before saves.

It will take at least two turn to finish one knight in my set up, which brings another question, why all the weapons cost the same (0) despite obvious disparity.

The single plasma gun alone will do 21.5 wounds on average, even if the knight passes his 5++ save at an average rate. You're probably reading the rules incorrectly for how macro weapons work. It's on the first few pages of the entire book.

The bolter obviously is a little meh because it's not going to do well vs tanks and other titans, but it'll still kill a 10 man strong squad of primaris marines on average. Not too terrible.

I think the idea is that they will only be used at apocalypse level points values, so whether you're paying 50 or 150 points for a weapon, it's kind of all the same in the scope of like a 10,000 point battle. Double plasma is nasty though.

oh lawd just reading the new renegades bit of the latest FW index

Malefic lord - hq 30pts

can cast powers, Renegades has smite like power (pick a unit 18" d3 ME's or d if a vehicle on a 7) that and obv normal smite

30pts each thou, T4 4w and a 4+ inv but mainly 30pts!

5 of them jumping out of a chimera 150pts smite smite smite!

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
nope, you jsut attack with the male talons they are a weapon afterall

basically you get 7 malefic talon attacks (8 if ye khorne)

they are comparable to the axe and sword because of the extra attacks... the no brainer is in the fact they are drastically less pts

Oh... Ooooh. Ok, so it's like a chainsword, not a mount attack. The wording on the power scourge threw me off because it is a little similar to mount attacks.I figured it only got 3 swings with the scourge.


Different topic, I ran 3 giant chaos spawn at 1000pt. They are amazing distractions and if they are not dealt with quickly they get out of control. Also they go berserk at 1-4 wounds, getting 2D6 S and 2D6 attacks. They are hilariously cheap, honestly I think they are cheaper than they were in 7th edition, and much better.

How did the rest of your list look? Btw which basesize has the giant Chaosspawn?

Question about dreadclaws and assault claws. Once they drop in the unit must disembark (I. E. Within 3" of the transport) but can't be set up within 9" of the enemy. Can the Disembarked unit then move their normal move distance to get closer to the enemy as per the disembarking procedure rules? Or am I missing something?

no they can't , it specifically says the unit can disembark but must also be more than 9" away

 Latro_ wrote:
no they can't , it specifically says the unit can disembark but must also be more than 9" away

Yes, they would be after disembarking. But then is there anything stopping them making their normal move as Disembarked units usually can?

The dreadclaw deploys at the end of the movement phase, so no moves after disembarking the first time.

Loopstah wrote:
The dreadclaw deploys at the end of the movement phase, so no moves after disembarking the first time.

It's worth noting that if you deep strike the claw then you MUST disembark the unit immediately, but you aren't required to deep strike it. If you think the transported unit or units would benefit from hiding in the claw for a turn then you can set it up normally instead, and treat it as a sort of very expensive but very fast rhino.

Either way, you're probably paying too many points, but.... *shrug*


Also, it seems the FW land raiders not having machine spirit was a deliberate design choice to trade it for 'machina malifica', and not just a matter of FW designers accidentally missing that Chaos land raiders actually keep their machine spirit now. Which is unfortunate, because the FW land raider variants lean very heavily on their machine spirit rule to function, while the machina malifica rules seems mostly cosmetic and not at all an acceptable substitute. Maybe it would be an ok trade on a raider variant that traded expensive heavy weaponry for lower cost and higher capacity, like a hypothetical chaos crusader or something, but whatever they are, the proteus, achilles, and spartan are not that.