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Brass Scorpion, Lord of Skulls, Magnus or a Bloodthirster?

The Maths,
Brass scorpion: about 21 wounds
Lord of Skulls: about 13 wounds
Magnus: about 17 wounds.
Bloodthirster (with re-roll): about 14 wounds.
Bloodthirster (without re-roll): about 12 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
aetaos'rau'keres: 74% chance of killing a knight in one turn of combat if it is at full wounds.

Hows that?

And speaking of greater Daemons, An'ggrath: about 24 wounds. At least the Khorne Daemon Lord (on average) auto kills Knights.

Put in the relevant stats here: http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com
6 attacks at 16str, -4 ap, 6 dmg each. But you probably softened it up with smites and his 60" 2d6 assault, -4ap, 3dmg staff first. He also costs 700 pts though.

Yeah, killing a knight doesn't even make back Aetaos's points. I think that just shows he's costed correctly though, lol. A 700 point model that is fully worth taking in a 2000 point game, who'da thunk it.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Put in the relevant stats here: http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com
6 attacks at 16str, -4 ap, 6 dmg each. He also costs 700 pts though.

Ah, I missed the "change to D6 if targeting vehicles".

Arachnofiend wrote:
Yeah, killing a knight doesn't even make back Aetaos's points. I think that just shows he's costed correctly though, lol. A 700 point model that is fully worth taking in a 2000 point game, who'da thunk it.

If anything, I think he might be a bit undercosted for what he brings to the table. 3++, can't be tarpitted, 20" move, 27 wounds, reflects smites back at the opponents. That's one tough bird. I'm modeling one up from a Nagash to roll along with my Night Lords.

I just wanna say the Lord of skulls is good in this edition, based on the few times I tried it out. Make it the lyncpin of your army, or have him holding up an entire flank. He is great. Extremely hard to kill, and he gives the opposition nightmares.

And he stands up really well to imperial knights too. He can't take on an entire knight army of course, but one knight he definitely can handle. He is meant to charge into the biggest and baddest thing the opponent has and just duke it out while still being able to fire all its guns in the meantime.

And buffs like warptime and prescience work really well on him. Worried about how to take down heavy vehicles? Then use a LOS. That thing chews through vehicles really well because that huge axe does 6 damage per hit. And don't be afraid to charge him in in the face of fire. He can take a ton of damage, and his attacks actually go up as he takes damage!

Basically, if you plop down a LOS, there is no way the opponent can simply just ignore it.

BTW, try running a land raider filled with Khorne Berzerkers beside the LOS with Kharn the betrayer sandwitched in between. They aren't shooting kharn unless they take out either the LR on one side or the LOS on the other or both. In the mean time, Kharn gives both the LR and the LOS rerolls on all their to hits. That's a lot of shooting in itself even as you are charging up the field. When you hit combat. You have the LOS, 10 berzerkers plus Kharn himself. Its a pretty potent combat mix.

Ordinarily, land raiders will get shot at. But in this case, you have an even bigger target right beside the land raider (the LOS). So, the LOS serves as a pretty big shot magnet and distraction. So, is your opponent gonna shoot the LOS and let the LR continue firing its 4 lascannons, twin heavy bolters, etc while unloading its deadly payload of zerkers (backed by Kharn) or is he gonna shoot the Land raider, in which case he will have to content with the LOS getting into close range combat.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I just wanna say the Lord of skulls is good in this edition, based on the few times I tried it out. Make it the lyncpin of your army, or have him holding up an entire flank. He is great. Extremely hard to kill, and he gives the opposition nightmares.

And he stands up really well to imperial knights too. He can't take on an entire knight army of course, but one knight he definitely can handle. He is meant to charge into the biggest and baddest thing the opponent has and just duke it out while still being able to fire all its guns in the meantime.

And buffs like warptime and prescience work really well on him. Worried about how to take down heavy vehicles? Then use a LOS. That thing chews through vehicles really well because that huge axe does 6 damage per hit. And don't be afraid to charge him in in the face of fire. He can take a ton of damage, and his attacks actually go up as he takes damage!

Basically, if you plop down a LOS, there is no way the opponent can simply just ignore it.

What ranged weapons are you giving him?

I tried different arms. The best seem to be Ichor cannon and the hades gratling gun. His rules allow him to shoot someone far away with both even if some one tries to throw some tarpit infantry unit in the way.

The hades gratling gun is a very fierce 12 shots. And the ichor cannon has a -4 AP str 7 d6 shots at 48 inch range. The -4ap is very nice. Ichor cannon is very cheap too. cheaper than the gorestorm cannon which is heavily nerfed this edition.

btw, if you run the LR with zerkers and kharn and the LOS, no chaff is going to be enough to tarpit them. Kharn himself will mow down any chaff, not to mention the twin heavy bolters, the combi weapon and the havoc launcher you can equip on the LR. Ordinarily, I would hesitate to make my LR even more expensive with all the additional guns but with such a big target as the LOS beside it, I have no qualms going all out in my LR loadout. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Shoot the LR or shoot the LOS? lol In any case, both are T8 with a ton of wounds... so... have fun! lol

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I tried different arms. The best seem to be Ichor cannon and the hades gratling gun. His rules allow him to shoot someone far away with both even if some one tries to throw some tarpit infantry unit in the way.

The hades gratling gun is a very fierce 12 shots. And the ichor cannon has a -4 AP str 7 d6 shots at 48 inch range. The -4ap is very nice. Ichor cannon is very cheap too. cheaper than the gorestorm cannon which is heavily nerfed this edition.

But is the Hades cannon worth it at a whopping 184pts when the skullhurler is only 94pts?

btw, if you run the LR with zerkers and kharn and the LOS, no chaff is going to be enough to tarpit them. Kharn himself will mow down any chaff, not to mention the twin heavy bolters, the combi weapon and the havoc launcher you can equip on the LR. Ordinarily, I would hesitate to make my LR even more expensive with all the additional guns but with such a big target as the LOS beside it, I have no qualms going all out in my LR loadout. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Shoot the LR or shoot the LOS? lol In any case, both are T8 with a ton of wounds... so... have fun! lol

I might try this tactic out in a larger game I'm planning on playing.

I tried both the skullhurler and the Hades cannon. 12 shots are better than d6 per turn (which averages 3 to 4 shots). I think its worth it, but as you said. Its expensive.

Don't forget Kharn can be there to give rerolls to hit. 12 shots of str 8 with 2 damage each shot is a lot of damage.

I'm having a lot of trouble with my Kharybdis right now. I always used to take it stuffed to burstin with Berzerkers, arguably the most expensive way to do that, yet in my last Tournament I put a melee Helbrute in there and the combination was amazing. Now I'm torn because the Berzerkers in Rhinos in that game ALWAYS made their charges because they can disembark and move, yet I seem to ALWAYS fail my charges out of the drop pod even with icon of wrath rerolls. It's obvious that being able to get that extra positioning with the Rhino is better than being placed 9 inches away because you can potentially get a lot closer. The Helbrute didn't always make his charge either but he was tough enough to survive the return fire for a turn before going ham. I also found that you really don't need more than one-two units of berzerkers due to their cost and their effectiveness, so now I'm struggling to take one or two units in Rhinos.

That feel when all you ever wanted to do was take berzerkers but now they're too good at killing infantry so you only need one unit and need to take other vehicle killing stuff QQ

I'm considering adding in Lord Arkos to bring that 9" down to 8".
Also CP reroll can be better than icon of wrath, so always consider that.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I'm considering adding in Lord Arkos to bring that 9" down to 8".
Also CP reroll can be better than icon of wrath, so always consider that.

mah brudda, when da dice always rullin' low, CP aint bein a good help to yeah

Historically when I flub a roll it's flubbed hard and I need to reroll both dice. I also tend to make lists with low CP and spend the reroll on the Kharybdis' charge because hooollyy gak does that thing love close combat. I also charge with it FIRST to soak up the overwatch and it has fly so it always hops over the Zerks to get into combat. In all my games the Kharybdis has only ever not made its charge once because I always reroll that dice. The thing loves killin.

 andysonic1 wrote:
I'm having a lot of trouble with my Kharybdis right now. I always used to take it stuffed to burstin with Berzerkers, arguably the most expensive way to do that, yet in my last Tournament I put a melee Helbrute in there and the combination was amazing. Now I'm torn because the Berzerkers in Rhinos in that game ALWAYS made their charges because they can disembark and move, yet I seem to ALWAYS fail my charges out of the drop pod even with icon of wrath rerolls. It's obvious that being able to get that extra positioning with the Rhino is better than being placed 9 inches away because you can potentially get a lot closer. The Helbrute didn't always make his charge either but he was tough enough to survive the return fire for a turn before going ham. I also found that you really don't need more than one-two units of berzerkers due to their cost and their effectiveness, so now I'm struggling to take one or two units in Rhinos.

That feel when all you ever wanted to do was take berzerkers but now they're too good at killing infantry so you only need one unit and need to take other vehicle killing stuff QQ

You can start the game with the droppods on the table, in which case you can manuver it just like a rhino and deploy when/where you want.

Debilitate wrote:
So boys and girls, what are our tools for dealing with knights? My short list includes:

Cereberus (but it looks dumb)
Leviathans
Kharybdis (see above)
Another knight/scorpion and hope you get luckier
Xiphons (maybe??)
Spartan (8 lascannon shots)

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought, with Chainclaws and SoulBurners. Place near Knight. Cast prescience, then cast warp time. Profit.

Better explanation:
Soulburner: 2D3 Shots, Hitting on 2+, that with prescience are getting +1 to hit. These are doing Mortal wounds, and they aren't rolling to wound. Morta wounds mean your invul save can suck it.
In close combat, you're at 5 attacks, Hitting on 2+ (with a +1 to hit) Wounding on 3's, Ap -4, and Damage 4 for each hit that goes through.

Long story short, if you don't kill the Knight in the first round of combat, you are very likely gonna get him on the second. The contemptor has a 4++ in close combat, so odds are he's gonna be able to survive to round 2.

The contemptor will cost about 250 points to remove a knight of easily twice his points value. I personally ran a couple of characters into the knight with him to ensure it died on the first turn it was charged, but it wasn't necessary... Not that I care, overkill is a Night Lord calling card. You get extra style points if you use some Warp Talons to prevent the knight from shooting overwatch.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
I'm having a lot of trouble with my Kharybdis right now. I always used to take it stuffed to burstin with Berzerkers, arguably the most expensive way to do that, yet in my last Tournament I put a melee Helbrute in there and the combination was amazing. Now I'm torn because the Berzerkers in Rhinos in that game ALWAYS made their charges because they can disembark and move, yet I seem to ALWAYS fail my charges out of the drop pod even with icon of wrath rerolls. It's obvious that being able to get that extra positioning with the Rhino is better than being placed 9 inches away because you can potentially get a lot closer. The Helbrute didn't always make his charge either but he was tough enough to survive the return fire for a turn before going ham. I also found that you really don't need more than one-two units of berzerkers due to their cost and their effectiveness, so now I'm struggling to take one or two units in Rhinos.

That feel when all you ever wanted to do was take berzerkers but now they're too good at killing infantry so you only need one unit and need to take other vehicle killing stuff QQ

You can start the game with the droppods on the table, in which case you can manuver it just like a rhino and deploy when/where you want.

The issue with that is the damn thing is going to have to tank just about all the enemy fire for a turn, and if you're up against some hardcore shooting you want a rhino you can stick fully behind terrain. I don't know if you've seen the Kharybdis but the damn thing is enormous. Yes there are a lot of reasons to put it on the table instead of deep striking it, such as the fact that it's movement never diminishes as it takes damage, and it has toughness 8, and 16 wounds, and you pretty much eliminate the 9 inch problem if you move it up the board asap, and everything else in your army will pretty much never be shot at while it is alive, and....hm....you would pretty much need an entire fast assault army that can move up while the Kharybdis tanks the incoming fire, and even then if you don't go first you can say goodbye to the damn thing. Land Raiders are already getting blown apart first turn and they at least can attempt to get cover from certain enemy units. But...if you start it on the table you eliminate the need to balance your deep strike and your on board presence so you can fill it with HQs. 10 berzerkers, 5 plasma gun havocs, kharn, dark apostle, and maybe another HQ or three. You push it into the middle of the board near some cover and if it explodes you disembark into the cover, hopefully weather whatever else the enemy has to throw at you, then the rest of your army catches up and as one you assault.

Thoughts?

I don't think it is terribly efficient for what it brings, but if you aren't deepstriking, I think you need to have a number of other threats in the table, just to avoid the problems you laid out. Personally, I would only load it up with a bunch of zerkers, and maybe one or two cheap support characters (maybe daemon heralds) and keep them in the thing letting it do what it does until it does die.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I don't think it is terribly efficient for what it brings, but if you aren't deepstriking, I think you need to have a number of other threats in the table, just to avoid the problems you laid out. Personally, I would only load it up with a bunch of zerkers, and maybe one or two cheap support characters (maybe daemon heralds) and keep them in the thing letting it do what it does until it does die.

Deamons cannot go in Chaos Space Marine transports. They do not have the <Mark of Chaos> keyword.

It is extremely efficient at killing units both big and small, I have used it in about 6 games so far and I haven't been disappointed. The fact that you can deep strike, fire your weapons, assault, then in your next turn leave assault, fly into the middle of the enemy formation, and fire your AOE pistol that auto hits everything around you is fantastic. The models removed adds up very quickly.

Currently, there is no difference between faction keywords and unit keywords, so Khorne=Khorne, no matter what line it's on.

""All datasheets have a list of keywords, sometimes separated into Faction keywords and other keywords. the former can be used as a guide to help decide which models to include in your army, but otherwise both sets of keywords are functionally the same."

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I don't think it is terribly efficient for what it brings, but if you aren't deepstriking, I think you need to have a number of other threats in the table, just to avoid the problems you laid out. Personally, I would only load it up with a bunch of zerkers, and maybe one or two cheap support characters (maybe daemon heralds) and keep them in the thing letting it do what it does until it does die.

Deamons cannot go in Chaos Space Marine transports. They do not have the <Mark of Chaos> keyword.

I think you ment <Legion> keyword, right?

That said, a Khorne herald advancing on a juggernaught behind the rhino works just fine.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I don't think it is terribly efficient for what it brings, but if you aren't deepstriking, I think you need to have a number of other threats in the table, just to avoid the problems you laid out. Personally, I would only load it up with a bunch of zerkers, and maybe one or two cheap support characters (maybe daemon heralds) and keep them in the thing letting it do what it does until it does die.

Deamons cannot go in Chaos Space Marine transports. They do not have the <Mark of Chaos> keyword.

I think you ment <Legion> keyword, right?

That said, a Khorne herald advancing on a juggernaught behind the rhino works just fine.

No, the droppods have <Legion> or <mark> infantry keywords for riders. And for all intents and purposes right now Khorne=Khorne, Nurgle=Nurgle, etc. that's why heralds can buff warp Talons, for example.

Debilitate wrote:
So boys and girls, what are our tools for dealing with knights? My short list includes:

Cereberus (but it looks dumb)
Leviathans
Kharybdis (see above)
Another knight/scorpion and hope you get luckier
Xiphons (maybe??)
Spartan (8 lascannon shots)


Doritos don't seem great for that role (better for popping transports). Laspreds and havocs are too 2 dimensional imo. Been staring at our indeces for the last two hours just pulling a blank.

An'ggrath literally chops them in half. I also like the Brass Scorpion because wartime can move him twice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arachnofiend wrote:
Yeah, killing a knight doesn't even make back Aetaos's points. I think that just shows he's costed correctly though, lol. A 700 point model that is fully worth taking in a 2000 point game, who'da thunk it.

Yep him and An'ggrath are both good at different things, but both absolutely worth their points


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
I'm having a lot of trouble with my Kharybdis right now. I always used to take it stuffed to burstin with Berzerkers, arguably the most expensive way to do that, yet in my last Tournament I put a melee Helbrute in there and the combination was amazing. Now I'm torn because the Berzerkers in Rhinos in that game ALWAYS made their charges because they can disembark and move, yet I seem to ALWAYS fail my charges out of the drop pod even with icon of wrath rerolls. It's obvious that being able to get that extra positioning with the Rhino is better than being placed 9 inches away because you can potentially get a lot closer. The Helbrute didn't always make his charge either but he was tough enough to survive the return fire for a turn before going ham. I also found that you really don't need more than one-two units of berzerkers due to their cost and their effectiveness, so now I'm struggling to take one or two units in Rhinos.

That feel when all you ever wanted to do was take berzerkers but now they're too good at killing infantry so you only need one unit and need to take other vehicle killing stuff QQ

You can start the game with the droppods on the table, in which case you can manuver it just like a rhino and deploy when/where you want.

The issue with that is the damn thing is going to have to tank just about all the enemy fire for a turn, and if you're up against some hardcore shooting you want a rhino you can stick fully behind terrain. I don't know if you've seen the Kharybdis but the damn thing is enormous. Yes there are a lot of reasons to put it on the table instead of deep striking it, such as the fact that it's movement never diminishes as it takes damage, and it has toughness 8, and 16 wounds, and you pretty much eliminate the 9 inch problem if you move it up the board asap, and everything else in your army will pretty much never be shot at while it is alive, and....hm....you would pretty much need an entire fast assault army that can move up while the Kharybdis tanks the incoming fire, and even then if you don't go first you can say goodbye to the damn thing. Land Raiders are already getting blown apart first turn and they at least can attempt to get cover from certain enemy units. But...if you start it on the table you eliminate the need to balance your deep strike and your on board presence so you can fill it with HQs. 10 berzerkers, 5 plasma gun havocs, kharn, dark apostle, and maybe another HQ or three. You push it into the middle of the board near some cover and if it explodes you disembark into the cover, hopefully weather whatever else the enemy has to throw at you, then the rest of your army catches up and as one you assault.

Thoughts?

Totally would be worth doing at 100 points, not 200. Kharybdis is more efficient but still very expensive. I honestly think Rhino rush is the best way to do it (which is a shame because I steadfastly refuse to do it. Like I will sooner just run up the field screaming "for the blood god!" on foot) Khorne forgive me but I have even used Tzeentch trickery to get up the field faster on foot

Based on the new FAQ on the ruleset, Rhinos can now advance and then fire their smoke launchers at the same time. So, they can move 12 inches, advance d6, and then fire smoke launchers.

That makes Rhinos a pretty good transport actually. Might be worth considering a Rhino rush.

Has anyone tried? Stuff like 49 Berserkers and Kharn into 5 Rhinos and then charge it up the board. The champions can be equipped with power fists, which would give them 6 Str 10 attacks. (because they attack twice). Ok, if you are using 49 zerkers in 5 Rhinos, you will likely be using battalion. So, then need two heroes. So, 48 zerkers, 1 dark apostle, Kharn, all stuffed into 5 Rhinos and then charge it up the field. (Apostle will make zerkers absolutely sick in close combat). lol

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Based on the new FAQ on the ruleset, Rhinos can now advance and then fire their smoke launchers at the same time. So, they can move 12 inches, advance d6, and then fire smoke launchers.

That makes Rhinos a pretty good transport actually. Might be worth considering a Rhino rush.

Has anyone tried? Stuff like 49 Berserkers and Kharn into 5 Rhinos and then charge it up the board.

No like that literally is the best and most cost effective way to do it. I just patently refuse

lol why? It actually sounds pretty fluffy. lol You know how they also talk about how it needs 120 lasgun shots to bring down some big vehicle such?

Watch me use 20 berserkers with chain swords and chain axes to hack down an imperial knight in two rounds.

PS: Berserkers have STR 5. They wound an imperial knight on a 5. I bet they will do better than shooting 120 lasguns at it. lol

Hmmm, strength of attacks is a pretty amazing thing. I did some math for a squad of 10 zerkers. They should be able to do just enough of 11 wounds on a T7 predator tank and destroy it. This is even if the Champion isn't equipped with something big like a powerfist. If it is, then it should be a sure thing.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
lol why? It actually sounds pretty fluffy. lol You know how they also talk about how it needs 120 lasgun shots to bring down some big vehicle such?

Watch me use 20 berserkers with chain swords and chain axes to hack down an imperial knight in two rounds.

PS: Berserkers have STR 5. They wound an imperial knight on a 5. I bet they will do better than shooting 120 lasguns at it. lol

I....don't know that I can explain it. I could even roll up in a land raider and that would make me happier. I really do wish our drop pods were 100ish like our imperial counterparts. Would literally just do a bunch of those (as to why I like that better, I guess it's because they spend less time in the pod in my mind)

FYI I love Zerkers and will find a way to play them....but I am avoiding rhino rush like it's the plague

You only need to spend 1 round in the Rhino really.

Rhino moves 12 inch, assault d6 (average 3.5), and blow smoke. Next turn deploy 3 inch, move 6, and charge 2d6 rerollable because of icon of wrath.

That's a range of 12 + 9 + 3d6 (with the last 2d6 being rerollable). Its a pretty impressive reach and they just need to spend all of one turn in the Rhino.

As long as the Rhino gets to move that one turn, you have this range. The only way you don't get this is if the opponent goes first and blows your Rhino up before you even get to move. So if you managed to go first, its a mote issue. Your Rhinos would have already moved that 12+d6 which they need to by the time its the opponent's turn. Even if he immediately blows up the Rhino after that. You still get to deploy 3 inch from the destroyed Rhino. Then next turn move your 6 inch and charge 2d6 when its your turn.

Contemptor Dreadnoughts are the answer to vehicle killing. They are absolutely terrifying. They are reasonably fragile though and suffer from a degrading profile so don't let them tank lascannon shots if you can help it.

But that's the problem. Anyone who knows them will know how deadly yet fragile they are. So, you can be pretty sure they WILL put all their lascannon or heavy weapon shots on the Contemptor Dreadnought. Then, will the game depend on who goes first?

Somehow, I don't like the idea that my list will live or die based on whether I go first or not... Not unless I have like only 4 or 5 units to put down so that I am that confident I will go first! lol

As an example, the other day my friend put down Pask. I was like, what's he do? He told me Pask's Lemon Russ had 20 shots @@ and a load of bonuses and aura and what not. So, when I got to go first that battle, and I simply dumped all my lascannons into him. He was destroyed without getting to do anything.

Why do possessed still have to be the worst unit in chaos army have they ever been good, because they where aweful in 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th.