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Ok, I inadvertently started the debate, and for that I apologize, but let me say that the store owner, in my situation, didn't ban FW for sales reasons. In fact, he offered to order FW items for those who wanted it, but explained that he doesn't get a discount and can't extend one to customers.

During the infancy of our 40k community, FW was seen as OP, and due to the prices it was feared by many that those that did bring FW would hold serious advantage over those who didn't. Either by OP units or by fielding units no one ever saw before. So some of the players went to the owner and asked for the restriction. Obviously, most of us here know that FW being all OP all the time is nonsense. Though now with many people having larger armies or having been used to dealing super heavies in previous editions it may be possible to lift the restriction. Though I've tried before and most people still stubbornly clinging to the rule for no real reason, but are ok with buying FW rhino doors, Dread arms, shoulder pads, etc.


As far as models bought from places other than the store, the owner doesn't care. We had a WAAC guy for a while that only spent money on tournament/leage entry. He was a douche that bragged about his ebay finds and how he never pays full price for models, but the owner bit his tongue and let him play.

well, back to the topic of tactics before it gets sidetracked ...

Anyone tried a walking army of noise marines. Like seriously pack 80 noise marines with sonic blasters and move them up the field while shooting?

It looks like it shouldn't work, but sonice blasters are assault 3. So, those noise marines can move, assault and then shoot 3 times.

And unless its T8, Str 4 shooting is just as effective against everything from T4 to T7. 80 noise marines with 3 shots each is 240 shots per turn. And the range is 6 +d6 +24 inches, after you have moved. That's pretty good and should just about reach most things on the board.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Kharn is the only hero in CSM right now other than Abaddon that gives units around him a reroll to hit. That's not a small thing. The first time my friend put Azreal into a fire base and told me he gives models around him a 4++ invul, gives them rerolls to hit, plus he himself can serve as a countercharge... I was green with envy.

I do like Kharn for the re-rolls, but the basic chaos lord for 99 points less will still let you do re-rolls of 1, which is almost as good, and his aura is a lot larger. I've been using that to great effect.

I don't want to inadvertently add fuel to any fires going around here, but I just want to ask, what would be the best competitive list moving forward in a metagame without any FW pieces? So imagine all GDub lists about 99.9% of the time.

The meta is still fluid. I really don't think there is anything particularly OP right now. World Eaters are good because berzerkers are good, but ground slogging berzerkers are a very one dimensional army, so they are really good against certain army types and against others, they will be almost auto lose (like a flying shooty army).

Someone mentioned an all DP army. Against very specialised and auto win against some armies, but will probably auto lose against others.

 luke1705 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Kharn is the only hero in CSM right now other than Abaddon that gives units around him a reroll to hit. That's not a small thing. The first time my friend put Azreal into a fire base and told me he gives models around him a 4++ invul, gives them rerolls to hit, plus he himself can serve as a countercharge... I was green with envy.

I do like Kharn for the re-rolls, but the basic chaos lord for 99 points less will still let you do re-rolls of 1, which is almost as good, and his aura is a lot larger. I've been using that to great effect.

This. Taking Kharn for full rerolls is a waste of points, just take a bare bones Chaos Lord instead and use the saved points for something else that will actually get full utility.

Well, I think it all depends on what you are running Kharn with and how you want to strategise your army around him. Running Kharn up the board with two LR besides him, then he doesn't waste his awesome fighting capability and the LRs get benefit from his rerolls.

As a stationary firebase there are of course cheaper options like said chaos lord, but one lone chaos lord might not be much of a counter charge option for your firebase if it gets attacked whereas Kharn will give anyone some pause.

Bear in mind also that some stuff like Defilers are at 4+ to hit. So, in this case, a reroll is much stronger than just a reroll 1 to hit.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, I think it all depends on what you are running Kharn with and how you want to strategise your army around him. Running Kharn up the board with two LR besides him, then he doesn't waste his awesome fighting capability and the LRs get benefit from his rerolls.

As a stationary firebase there are of course cheaper options like said chaos lord, but one lone chaos lord might not be much of a counter charge option for your firebase if it gets attacked whereas Kharn will give anyone some pause.

Bear in mind also that some stuff like Defilers are at 4+ to hit. So, in this case, a reroll is much stronger than just a reroll 1 to hit.

Kharn in and of himself is a weak counter-assault unit. If something is attacking whatever Kharn is standing next to giving his aura, they can most likely kill IT and Kharn. You're better off filling the Raiders with Berzerkers or something.

By all means, fill the LRs with berzerkers. That has always been the plan.

Raising my question again. Anyone had experience with fielding mass noise marines with Sonic blastors? Seems like a lot of shots.

Kharn also isn't quite fast enough to keep up with the raiders to buff them after a turn or so, but they should buffer him nicely from most things on the wrong side of the tracks.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
well, back to the topic of tactics before it gets sidetracked ...

Anyone tried a walking army of noise marines. Like seriously pack 80 noise marines with sonic blasters and move them up the field while shooting?

It looks like it shouldn't work, but sonice blasters are assault 3. So, those noise marines can move, assault and then shoot 3 times.

And unless its T8, Str 4 shooting is just as effective against everything from T4 to T7. 80 noise marines with 3 shots each is 240 shots per turn. And the range is 6 +d6 +24 inches, after you have moved. That's pretty good and should just about reach most things on the board.

blaster noise should ride rhinos, while footslogging should be for blastmasters. 5 noiser with blastmaster are 108 pts! 5 with blaster are 100 pts... a minimum rhino is 72.

Vanguard detachment

a lord
a sorc

3X 5 noise with blasters and a doom siren

2 rhino

4X 5 noise with blastmaster

2X2 spawn (filler, better units can be here)

2X 5 havocs, 2 heavy bolter, 2 lascannon

about 1500 pts. maybe it can work?

Eldenfirefly wrote:
well, back to the topic of tactics before it gets sidetracked ...

Anyone tried a walking army of noise marines. Like seriously pack 80 noise marines with sonic blasters and move them up the field while shooting?

It looks like it shouldn't work, but sonice blasters are assault 3. So, those noise marines can move, assault and then shoot 3 times.

And unless its T8, Str 4 shooting is just as effective against everything from T4 to T7. 80 noise marines with 3 shots each is 240 shots per turn. And the range is 6 +d6 +24 inches, after you have moved. That's pretty good and should just about reach most things on the board.

That's my goal right here.

My to-do list is something like that :

- 20 Noises marines, all with sonic weapon (so 14 sonic blaster and 3 Blastmaster) and combiplasma on Noise marine champ
- Going with one Chaos lord for the reroll
- 2 Spawn to protect them (a little) from assault and teleporting units
- 3 bikes with 2 melta and a sorcerer on bike to snipe super heavy (with prescience you can turbo-boost and use your melta normally)
- 10 Raptors with 3 flamers (2 flamers + Combiflamers) with a sorcerer with jetpack (for warptime)
- Sicaran with two lascanon

All that for 1500 points.

blaster noise should ride rhinos, while footslogging should be for blastmasters. 5 noiser with blastmaster are 108 pts! 5 with blaster are 100 pts... a minimum rhino is 72.

With assault weapon you can just advance at any turn until you'r in position, so NM are 6+1D6", not sure the rhino is mandatory.

I wish you could take noise marine havocs as heavy support with 4 blastmasters it wouldn't even be redicules since they are roughly comparable to missile launchers now.

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
well, back to the topic of tactics before it gets sidetracked ...

Anyone tried a walking army of noise marines. Like seriously pack 80 noise marines with sonic blasters and move them up the field while shooting?

It looks like it shouldn't work, but sonice blasters are assault 3. So, those noise marines can move, assault and then shoot 3 times.

And unless its T8, Str 4 shooting is just as effective against everything from T4 to T7. 80 noise marines with 3 shots each is 240 shots per turn. And the range is 6 +d6 +24 inches, after you have moved. That's pretty good and should just about reach most things on the board.

That's my goal right here.

My to-do list is something like that :

- 20 Noises marines, all with sonic weapon (so 14 sonic blaster and 3 Blastmaster) and combiplasma on Noise marine champ
- Going with one Chaos lord for the reroll
- 2 Spawn to protect them (a little) from assault and teleporting units
- 3 bikes with 2 melta and a sorcerer on bike to snipe super heavy (with prescience you can turbo-boost and use your melta normally)
- 10 Raptors with 3 flamers (2 flamers + Combiflamers) with a sorcerer with jetpack (for warptime)
- Sicaran with two lascanon

All that for 1500 points.

blaster noise should ride rhinos, while footslogging should be for blastmasters. 5 noiser with blastmaster are 108 pts! 5 with blaster are 100 pts... a minimum rhino is 72.

With assault weapon you can just advance at any turn until you'r in position, so NM are 6+1D6", not sure the rhino is mandatory.

idk if i am ok with the -1 to hit and the general squishiness of noise marines... if they walk, they can be shot easily...

Yea but all the point you spend in rhino can go on more Noise marines.
And in the case of noise marines you get more dakka when you get killed, so that's not like your points are totally lost when you get killed (exept of course if there is nothing at range).

So i'm not sure if X Noise marines in Y Rhino are so much better than X+Yx3.6 Noise marines without rhino.

 luke1705 wrote:
Kharn also isn't quite fast enough to keep up with the raiders to buff them after a turn or so, but they should buffer him nicely from most things on the wrong side of the tracks.

That's why you should start the game with Kharn inside the Raiders, then Disembark and advance for 9+d6" first turn movement and he's still buffing the raiders. He'll lag behind a bit but with some good advance rolls he should be able to keep up.

Anyone tried the hellforged preds yet?

Really considering a flamer one! 189pts looks pretty tasty

2d6 s5 ap-1 2dm
1 d6 s5 -1 1dm
1 d6 s5 -1 1dm

thats a whole lot of flame.

 Latro_ wrote:
Anyone tried the hellforged preds yet?

Really considering a flamer one! 189pts looks pretty tasty

2d6 s5 ap-1 2dm
1 d6 s5 -1 1dm
1 d6 s5 -1 1dm

thats a whole lot of flame.

Nasty, 4d6 auto hits on a predator shassy. Drive it into the Hordes and dare them to charge you! Mwahahaha!

It's quite a lot but have you seen the renegade Baneblade? Max that thing out and you're killing Hordes left and right: 2d6 S9 AP-3 D3, d3 S10 AP-3 Dd6, 4 S9 AP-3 Dd6 and 8d6 S5 AP-1 D1. Four Twin Heavy Flamers! That's an average of 28 auto hits! On top of all the anti-tank stuff! Expensive, sure, but damn do I want to take one of these monsters and drive it right into an Ork/Nid Horde, "Burn the Xenos".

 mrhappyface wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Kharn also isn't quite fast enough to keep up with the raiders to buff them after a turn or so, but they should buffer him nicely from most things on the wrong side of the tracks.

That's why you should start the game with Kharn inside the Raiders, then Disembark and advance for 9+d6" first turn movement and he's still buffing the raiders. He'll lag behind a bit but with some good advance rolls he should be able to keep up.

I actually love this idea lmao

Kharn is amazingly good when it comes to making stuff better, and the lower balistic skill, the better.
At BS 3+ he increases the effectiveness of a unit by 33%, at 4+ he increases the unit by 50% and at 5+ he increases the effectiveness by 67%.

This means that if a unit is more expensive than Kharn, and hits on a 4+, it is equally effective to take Kharn and buff two units than to take three of that same unit, not counting the extra value of being able to target three things.

He does this while filling the role of "Fark that Deep Striking unit trying to target my gun line"

dethric wrote:
Kharn is amazingly good when it comes to making stuff better, and the lower balistic skill, the better.
At BS 3+ he increases the effectiveness of a unit by 33%, at 4+ he increases the unit by 50% and at 5+ he increases the effectiveness by 67%.

This means that if a unit is more expensive than Kharn, and hits on a 4+, it is equally effective to take Kharn and buff two units than to take three of that same unit, not counting the extra value of being able to target three things.

He does this while filling the role of "Fark that Deep Striking unit trying to target my gun line"

He's pretty mad that he has to baby sit these Tanks, he's even angrier that someone is trying to charge his babies!

I0 sonic blaster noise marines is only a 20pts more than 5 terminators w/ power sword/combi bolters. Though the noise marines have an inferior save they have 10 extra shots at 12inch (optimal combi range) and 20 more shots at 13-24 inch range. Noise marines also shot when they die so foot slogging them is perfectly fine since even if they die they will shot somthing. They are also decent in combat nowhere near berserker but they are no push overs, also unlike berserkers they actually do somthing as they walk up the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only power armour unit i can think of which is more point effecient with small arms at long-range are sister of battle dominions with storm bolters. Who happen to also be by far the best at short range too.

 Rydria wrote:
I0 sonic blaster noise marines is only a 20pts more than 5 terminators w/ power sword/combi bolters. Though the noise marines have an inferior save they have 10 extra shots at 12inch (optimal combi range) and 20 more shots at 13-24 inch range. Noise marines also shot when they die so foot slogging them is perfectly fine since even if they die they will shot somthing. They are also decent in combat nowhere near berserker but they are no push overs, also unlike berserkers they actually do somthing as they walk up the board.

If noise marines are removed from play due to Morale, do they still get to fire? If not, foot slogging 10 of them up the board may be dangerous.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
I0 sonic blaster noise marines is only a 20pts more than 5 terminators w/ power sword/combi bolters. Though the noise marines have an inferior save they have 10 extra shots at 12inch (optimal combi range) and 20 more shots at 13-24 inch range. Noise marines also shot when they die so foot slogging them is perfectly fine since even if they die they will shot somthing. They are also decent in combat nowhere near berserker but they are no push overs, also unlike berserkers they actually do somthing as they walk up the board.

If noise marines are removed from play due to Morale, do they still get to fire? If not, foot slogging 10 of them up the board may be dangerous.

You can run them in two seperate squads so two units of 5 if you're worried about morale, technically better since the squad champions have an extra attack, and they have to kill 3 to even cause a morale test.

 Rydria wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
I0 sonic blaster noise marines is only a 20pts more than 5 terminators w/ power sword/combi bolters. Though the noise marines have an inferior save they have 10 extra shots at 12inch (optimal combi range) and 20 more shots at 13-24 inch range. Noise marines also shot when they die so foot slogging them is perfectly fine since even if they die they will shot somthing. They are also decent in combat nowhere near berserker but they are no push overs, also unlike berserkers they actually do somthing as they walk up the board.

If noise marines are removed from play due to Morale, do they still get to fire? If not, foot slogging 10 of them up the board may be dangerous.

You can run them in two seperate squads so two units of 5 if you're worried about morale, technically better since the squad champions have an extra attack

The question still stands though: do Morale losses prevent them from shooting again?

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
I0 sonic blaster noise marines is only a 20pts more than 5 terminators w/ power sword/combi bolters. Though the noise marines have an inferior save they have 10 extra shots at 12inch (optimal combi range) and 20 more shots at 13-24 inch range. Noise marines also shot when they die so foot slogging them is perfectly fine since even if they die they will shot somthing. They are also decent in combat nowhere near berserker but they are no push overs, also unlike berserkers they actually do somthing as they walk up the board.

If noise marines are removed from play due to Morale, do they still get to fire? If not, foot slogging 10 of them up the board may be dangerous.

You can run them in two seperate squads so two units of 5 if you're worried about morale, technically better since the squad champions have an extra attack

The question still stands though: do Morale losses prevent them from shooting again?

No because they weren't slain but fled (morale specifically says they flee) music of the apocalypse specifically says models slain.

Noise Marines as troops are pretty great. Here are our other troops for comparison (that I would even consider taking)

5 noise Marines w blastmaster is 108
5csm with a missile launcher is 90
10 poxwalkers are 60 (situational and req dg)
10 cultists are 50
10 brimstones 20 pts

If you kit out your noise Marines with sonic blasters too, you go up to 124. With a Doom Siren it goes to 146. I think at that point a Doom siren is too expensive for footslogging. Either barebones with a blastmaster or bm + 4x sonic blasters is the way to go.

Rhinos with Combi meltas to move em around are pretty dank too.

Don't forget that:

10 Mutants are 40 points
10 Militia without special weapons is 40 points

 luke1705 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Kharn is the only hero in CSM right now other than Abaddon that gives units around him a reroll to hit. That's not a small thing. The first time my friend put Azreal into a fire base and told me he gives models around him a 4++ invul, gives them rerolls to hit, plus he himself can serve as a countercharge... I was green with envy.

I do like Kharn for the re-rolls, but the basic chaos lord for 99 points less will still let you do re-rolls of 1, which is almost as good, and his aura is a lot larger. I've been using that to great effect.

Rerolling 1's is NOT almost as good. You're lying to yourself.

In fact, it's exactly twice as good if you are supporting units with 3+ WS/BS. A lord will buff you to hitting at about 77% vs Kharn or Abaddon who bring you to 88%.