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Ok,

I just mathed out the Levi Dreadnought and the Fire Raptor against a unit of 10 marines. (I did check other stuff too)

You can see the math for the Marines.
Comparing different loadouts for the Levi and the Fire Raptor.

Levi is approx 20% more efficient point for point. Surprisingly Soulburner is still more efficient at killing.
Moreso than 16 shots hitting on 2's.

But it has to get into range and will likely be moving a lot more. So I made a profile and amended its hit roll to 3.

Link : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fIYAu1UgDyxMCrnHYUoIdviPottSyRSQGTSgmsNxHfs/edit?usp=sharing

On a side note... the Butcher Cannons jump way ahead against a T7 12W Daemonic Vehicle. (3+, 5++)

Adding a lord for re-roll 1's makes the pt/pt efficiency jump by approx 20%. Well worth the investment. IMO.

C

Sonic Dreadnought:

So the new Sonic Dreadnought is a Hellbrute with two additional wargear options; it may take a doom siren, and it may replace its multi-melta with two Blastmasters.

Doom Siren:

Skip the Doom Siren isn't worth it's points any more, plus you have access to a heavy flamer as an upgrade to the Helbrute fist anyway.

Twin Blastmasters:

Taking two Blastmasters costs only 6 points more that a Twin Lascannon, for 2D3 S8/AP-2/D3 shots. Its potentially much better than Twin Lascanons against armor doing 8 damage on average, but up to 18 damage in a single shooting phase. While its alt firing mode makes it effective against infantry hordes with up to 2D6 S4/AP-1/Damage 1 hits. Imagine if you happen to roll crazed! A Sonic Dreadnought with just 2 Blastmasters, and a Helbrute Fist for 168 pts. All that and its still 27 pts cheaper with for its two Blastmaster shots than the IA13 version! You could then take a heavy flamer in the fist for +17 pts, or swap out the fist for a Power Scourge for 7X S8/AP-2/Damage 2 melee attacks for 173 pts. There's no reason to NOT get this dreadnought over a basic Helbrute if you play Emperor's Children.

Also unlike the 7th ed version your don't have to stay still to get to shots from the Blastmaster making it more mobile. I'll take one or two and keep them in the backfield for fire support and to protect my camping Noise Marines for deep strikers.

Remind me why again they didn't give the Doomsiren the same profile all other flamers got but with slightly better strength and AP?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sersi wrote:
Taking two Blastmasters cost only 6 points more that a Twin Lascannon, for 2D3 S8/AP-2/D3 shots. Its potentially much better than Twin Lascanons against armor doing 8 damage on average, but up to 18 damage in a single shooting phase. While its alt firing mode makes it effective against infantry hordes with up to 2D6 S4/AP-1/Damage 1 hits. Imagine if you happen to role crazed! A Sonic Dreadnought with just 2 Blastmasters, and a Helbrute Fist for 168 pts. All that and its still 27 pts cheaper with for its two Blastmaster shots than the IA13 version! You could then take a heavy flamer in the fist for +17 pts, or swap out the fist for a Power Scourge for 7X S8/AP-2/Damage 2 melee attacks for 173 pts. There's no reason to NOT get this dreadnought over a basic Helbrute if you play Emperor's Children.

Also, this will likely be the go to Dreadnought now for any chaos player not going with a list based around the other 3 gods.

I know right. I was hoping for a single Blastmaster when I emailed Forge World about the Sonic Dreadnought. I never imagined that they would allow two of them. I can see why though. I doubt the Twin Sonic Blaster variant ever sold that well; and the alt mode of the Blastmaster makes Sonic Blasters pointless now. Since the Twin Blastmaster’s alt mode averages 7 shot with S4/AP-1, vs 6 shots at S4/AP-.

I am disappointed about the Soulburner Petards being double what they were. But I suppose 4d3 shots hitting on 3+ that cause mortal wounds is probably worth 210pts total (on a Decimator). Tossing a lord near em is also handy for the rerolling of 1s. I mean that's probably an average of 6MWs a turn which can be pretty crippling.

@Anticitizen,

I'm honestly not surprised after seeing some people take 6 of these!

Im considering a few options.
Giant Chaos Spawn got a buff, they now get the Daemons rules. So Nurgle and march it over the board soaking wounds.
Cheap as chips also.

Has anyone considered taking a Sokar Pattern Gunship, filling it with Plasma and a lord.
Move, drop, shoot, load, move, drop, shoot, load.

Plus your entire army gains its 4+ void shields.
Take 49 Zerkers and a Lord for re-rolls.


Anyway, onto more serious thoughts.
The Leviathan Dread is actually surprisingly cost efficient with those Butcher Cannons.

Stick a lord nearby for lols. His re-roll 1's adds 15% value per Levi. Works out at 55pts value per turn per dread.
So 2 dreads and your lord is worth 110pts per turn in re-rolls.
Approx.

How are the hellbrutes? Worth taking? I plan to do them nurgle or khorne possibly, maybe one each to match my armies but not sure if they are worth it?

str00dles1 wrote:
How are the hellbrutes? Worth taking? I plan to do them nurgle or khorne possibly, maybe one each to match my armies but not sure if they are worth it?

As outlined above, the Slaanesh Helbrute seems to be the best loadout. Saying that, a Helbrute with autocannon/multi melta and a power scourge ain't bad.

 anticitizen013 wrote:
I am disappointed about the Soulburner Petards being double what they were. But I suppose 4d3 shots hitting on 3+ that cause mortal wounds is probably worth 210pts total (on a Decimator). Tossing a lord near em is also handy for the rerolling of 1s. I mean that's probably an average of 6MWs a turn which can be pretty crippling.

Same. I think 60pts each is too much. It should've been 45 or 50 each.

3rdlegion wrote:
Same. I think 60pts each is too much. It should've been 45 or 50 each.

Yeah... I had to remove a Chaos Lord from my list just to take the same loadout on both Decimators. But I suppose it could be worse...

50 would probably be better IMO, but whatever

 Sersi wrote:
Sonic Dreadnought:

So the new Sonic Dreadnought is a Hellbrute with two additional wargear options; it may take a doom siren, and it may replace its multi-melta with two Blastmasters.

Doom Siren:

Skip the Doom Siren isn't worth it's points any more, plus you have access to a heavy flamer as an upgrade to the Helbrute fist anyway.

Twin Blastmasters:

Taking two Blastmasters cost only 6 points more that a Twin Lascannon, for 2D3 S8/AP-2/D3 shots. Its potentially much better than Twin Lascanons against armor doing 8 damage on average, but up to 18 damage in a single shooting phase. While its alt firing mode makes it effective against infantry hordes with up to 2D6 S4/AP-1/Damage 1 hits. Imagine if you happen to role crazed! A Sonic Dreadnought with just 2 Blastmasters, and a Helbrute Fist for 168 pts. All that and its still 27 pts cheaper with for its two Blastmaster shots than the IA13 version! You could then take a heavy flamer in the fist for +17 pts, or swap out the fist for a Power Scourge for 7X S8/AP-2/Damage 2 melee attacks for 173 pts. There's no reason to NOT get this dreadnought over a basic Helbrute if you play Emperor's Children.

Also unlike the 7th ed version your don't have to stay still to get to shots from the Blastmaster making it more mobile. I'll take one or two and keep them in the backfield for fire support and to protect my camping Noise Marines for deep strikers.

It can also advance and still shot something a regular Hellbrute can't do, which makes it incredibly versatile and fast.

 anticitizen013 wrote:

3rdlegion wrote:
Same. I think 60pts each is too much. It should've been 45 or 50 each.

Yeah... I had to remove a Chaos Lord from my list just to take the same loadout on both Decimators. But I suppose it could be worse...

50 would probably be better IMO, but whatever

Yeah, it could be worse. I just wanted to have a good unit for a change

Overall there's some interesting and good buff for Chaos from the FAQ. I am particularly interested in the Sonic Hellbrute and Giant Spawn now.

I'm glad I have an Emperor's Children army with a Sonic Dreadnought just chilling in my display cabinet. Might need to add some things to it and let it rip!

What do people think about the Deimos Vindicator? As a Thousand Sons player hurting for inexpensive ways to kill vehicles it looks fairly attractive.

Weird Chaos FAQ bits:
- Ferrum Infernus dreads are now just Helbrutes. no options for siege weaponry, no option to become Characters, just plain old Helbrutes. It's just lazy

- Removing "in the turn this is used" from Machina Malefica, making Hellwrights pointless

- Hellwrights can't be Thousand Sons, World Eaters or Death Guard...but CAN be Emperor's Children

- Hellforged Siege Claws (SIEGE claws) get a bonus against Infantry

Hellwrights can be world eaters too.
Not being able to repair hellforged vehicles is iffy

The drill is clearly the anti vehicle weapon and they have now made the claw anti infantry. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

How are helbrutes now? From what I see they can be a cheap dakka dread or get punchy with the power scourge but I've not played them yet. Also being able to go double blastmaster as a sonic dread seems solid but might be too expensive idk.

(Also I hope melta/fist is good because I have 5 from the dark vegence set)

They are a big target because they are relatively easy to kill. A rhino has 10 wounds and can blow smoke. A dread has only 8 wounds, yet is much more expensive than a Rhino. It is also more dangerous if you let it do what its equipped for.

So, its a no brainer which one your opponent would kill first unless you have other targets that are even juicier or take priority over an expensive Hellbrute.

You could try for target saturation but the hellbrute makes for an expensive distraction. I think it would work only in very specific armies that somehow are able to make your opponent shoot his heavy weapons at something else.

I think we can say a EC Noise Dread is better than MSU Noise marine for getting those great blastmaster.
What do you think he should get on the other arm when taking in complement of a Noise marine army ?

CrownAxe wrote:How are helbrutes now? From what I see they can be a cheap dakka dread or get punchy with the power scourge but I've not played them yet. Also being able to go double blastmaster as a sonic dread seems solid but might be too expensive idk.

(Also I hope melta/fist is good because I have 5 from the dark vegence set)

I have a friend who has been running an entire army of dreads (I believe they are equipped with autocannons and power scourges?) and he has reported them doing very well: their shooting isn't great but the power scourges make them very deadly in cc. Not sure whether MM + PF is a great load out for them: I used one with that set up VS a Tau player and another time VS a DA player and both times it did bugger all damage.

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:I think we can say a EC Noise Dread is better than MSU Noise marine for getting those great blastmaster.
What do you think he should get on the other arm when taking in complement of a Noise marine army ?

2xBlastmaster + Power Scourge, bring the hurt in cc too.

Is a sonic dread unethical to bring to the no forgeworld crowd? Is that something a lot of people would have problems with because of it's forgeworld origins?

so is the decimator with soulburner petard still the option to go? or is a contemptor with butcher cannons or a Leviathat with butcher arrays better?

macluvin wrote:
Is a sonic dread unethical to bring to the no forgeworld crowd? Is that something a lot of people would have problems with because of it's forgeworld origins?

Sonic dreads where originally a standard codex option back in 3.5 that got lost in the 4th ed codex butchering. You can also build a blastmaster arm easily by using green stuff + the dirge caster from the chaos vehicle sprue so it can be made from standard GW kit. But you should still run it by your group before droping it on them.

 CrownAxe wrote:
How are helbrutes now? From what I see they can be a cheap dakka dread or get punchy with the power scourge but I've not played them yet. Also being able to go double blastmaster as a sonic dread seems solid but might be too expensive idk.

(Also I hope melta/fist is good because I have 5 from the dark vegence set)

Twin Blastmasters is on 6 points more than Twin Lascannons; and its 168 pts now so 22 pts cheaper since you don't have to take that dream killing Doom Siren upgrade. Two MSU Blastmaster Noise Marine squads are 216 pts minimum.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:
I think we can say a EC Noise Dread is better than MSU Noise marine for getting those great blastmaster.
What do you think he should get on the other arm when taking in complement of a Noise marine army ?

Well its been more points efficient since IA13 updated it to two shots. I'd go with the Power Scourge its only +2 pts more for +3 attacks. The fist S12 is great, but any vehicle or monster coming at you is going to be eating 8-18 damage. "If" they make charge range you Overwatch with 2D3 shots, then the Power Scourge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

macluvin wrote:
Is a sonic dread unethical to bring to the no forgeworld crowd? Is that something a lot of people would have problems with because of it's forgeworld origins?

Forge World models have been fully game legal for years now. In fact many tournaments allow them now. You should run it by your opponents but the Sonic Dreadnought is not OP anyway.

Well its been more points efficient since IA13 updated it to two shots. I'd go with the Power Scourge its only +2 pts more for +3 attacks. The fist S12 is great, but any vehicle or monster coming at you is going to be eating 8-18 damage. "If" they make charge range you Overwatch with 2D3 shots, then the Power Scourge.

Coudn't resist doing some mathammer on Scourge vs Helbrute fist (Helbruts hammer seems garbage, so didn't bother with it).

- On multi-wound (>2 HP) target :
- T8 or more : 3.11HP with scourge vs 4.44HP for Hellfist
- T7 : 4.14HP with scourge vs 4.44HP for Hellfist
- T6 to 5 : 4.14HP with scourge vs 5.55HP

In fact, the 2 more hits you get with scourge (3 attack on 3+) make less damage on models with more than 2HP and a save of 4/3/2+ than the Fist.

Ofc things are different when you look at 2 or 1Hp target. For exemple on Terminator Scourge score 1.944 dead vs 1.85 for the Fist.

Soooo... When talking about an Emperor Children army with lots of Sonic weapon :
- You get that anti-horde answer with Sonic Blaster and Blastmaster single frequency
- You get antiTEQ by saturation of sonic blaster and blastmaster on varied frequency.
- You get a little anti-light tank/Monstruouse creatures by blastmaster on varied frequency.

What you do need, imo, is more anti-tank, especially anti-heavy tank with Toughness>7 as blastmaster will have a hard time destroy those. So in that purpose a Hellbrut fist may complement a Emperor Children army much better than a scourge.

Lastly : You can take an heavy flammer with the fist, not with the Scourge. It's 4 point cheaper than a Doom Siren, but it's an heavy weapon. So no heavy flamers after an advance.

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:
Lastly : You can take an heavy flammer with the fist, not with the Scourge. It's 4 point cheaper than a Doom Siren, but it's an heavy weapon. So no heavy flamers after an advance.

Though, if your advancing, your probably not in range to use the flamer anyway.

kaintxu wrote:
so is the decimator with soulburner petard still the option to go? or is a contemptor with butcher cannons or a Leviathat with butcher arrays better?

Untill FW changes points values Decimator is way ahead if you are playing with enought screen (i.e. horrors) agaist charging enemies.
150 points for 4d3 mortal wounds on 3+ is jaw dropping value for money.

I ran a test game on weekend and for me the question is whether to take daemon prince or abaddon as a support hero.
The test was against SM with a lot of scouts and my heroes (changeling and DP) died on first turn.
Abaddon can start game in deep strike and deploy amidst decimators for guaranteed rerolls.

But recent tournaments show that sniper limits aren't that strong overall, so I am not sure.

Fan67 wrote:

kaintxu wrote:
so is the decimator with soulburner petard still the option to go? or is a contemptor with butcher cannons or a Leviathat with butcher arrays better?

Untill FW changes points values Decimator is way ahead if you are playing with enought screen (i.e. horrors) agaist charging enemies.
150 points for 4d3 mortal wounds on 3+ is jaw dropping value for money.

I ran a test game on weekend and for me the question is whether to take daemon prince or abaddon as a support hero.
The test was against SM with a lot of scouts and my heroes (changeling and DP) died on first turn.
Abaddon can start game in deep strike and deploy amidst decimators for guaranteed rerolls.

But recent tournaments show that sniper limits aren't that strong overall, so I am not sure.

That's the thing, it is no longer 150 points. Soulburner petards are now 60 points each, so it comes to 210 points. Is it still worth it at that price tag?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Has anyone noticed that our leviathan pays more for the same type of weapon than the "good aligned" leviathan?

Our grav flux bombard is 65 while theirs is 50
Our butcher array is 80 with with extra range and +1 strength and -2LD, but 1 less AP and 2 less shots and theirs is 50.

to be honest numbers don't add up here unless Im missing something

The search for a counter to stormravens continues.

#1 lascannon havoc spam

A stormraven costs 311 points and kill 6,5 marines a turn (65% of two 5-man squads).

Two 5-man havoc squads with 8 lascannons total cost 330 pts and deal 10,8 damage to a stormraven on average. That's 79% of its total wounds.

I would still play stormravens over havocs - SRs don't lose to infantry hordes, havocs do.

#2 predators

two stormravens cost 622 pts and deal 16.6 wounds to predators on average (that's 1.5 predator)

three predators cost 639 pts and deal 15 wounds to stormravens on average (that's 1 stormraven).

So both are more or less evenly matched. But stormravens still are faster, better at fighting, and immune to close combat.

#3 land raiders

No nice even numbers here, but looks the best so far. Field LR with all the lascannons, combi-bolter and a havoc launcher. Now you cost 369 points and deal 8.6 damage to stormravens a turn. At the same time, a stormraven deals mere 4.6 damage to you.

Ravens are cheaper, but even including the points, you have a significant edge now. You are better against infantry, SR's are better against vehicles and again, immune to close combat. But so far, LR looks like the best bet.