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175 points for 2d3 blastmaster shots, a missile launcher, and a doom siren is ........ wow. (Am I getting that right?)

You can efficiently pack in blastmaster shots a little more efficiently than with troops. 2 5 man squads with a blastmaster is 216 points... a single dread with twin blastmasters and a missile launcher is 175.

I get that there is a difference in the number of str4 shots tho. Pretty easy to make up that difference with saved points.

You shouldn't take the doom siren, d3 shots is just not worth it

I thought it was included no matter what.... Woops! Will recheck my faq!

So if you guys had to add one of the following, which one would you choose?

-renegade knight
- kytan
- lord of skulls
- brass scorpion

kaintxu wrote:
So if you guys had to add one of the following, which one would you choose?

-renegade knight
- kytan
- lord of skulls
- brass scorpion

On the basis of cool-ness?

Lord of Skull

On the basis of gameplay?

Brass Scorpion

On the basis of likely being about to use it in any event in the US?

Krytan or Renegade Knight

Captyn_Bob wrote:

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:

Plus, a roll of a '1' is always a fail. Regardless of modifiers.

Correct me if i'm wrong but a roll of 1 with a +1 modifier can be a success

well.. a 1 always fails for attacks, wounds.. saves..

However, a 1 with +1 modifier is not a 1, it's a 2.

If the rules said a natural 1 failed, then you'd be right, but they don't.


If you think a 1 with a +1 modifier is still always a fail, then is a 2 with a +1 modifier a fail for a model with WS/BS/Sv of 3+?

 luke1705 wrote:

kaintxu wrote:
So if you guys had to add one of the following, which one would you choose?

-renegade knight
- kytan
- lord of skulls
- brass scorpion

On the basis of cool-ness?

Lord of Skull

On the basis of gameplay?

Brass Scorpion

On the basis of likely being about to use it in any event in the US?

Krytan or Renegade Knight

Agreed, if you're looking to play tournaments the safest bet would be the Kytan or Knight.

 Leth wrote:
Honestly for the sonic dread the missile launcher is just not worth it.

I will take a blastmaster for 3 points more than a missile launcher anyday of the week. Plus the scourge gives 7! attacks. That is a great hybrid unit that brings lots of shooting while also being a Solid CC threat. All that for 173 points? Excuse me while I go convert some up.

I'm sure he meant take a missile launcher in place of the Helbrute fist arm. The two Blastmasters are both on the right side of the model the same as the twin Lascannon. So you'd have three ranged weapons. I agree on the two Blastermaster/Power Scourge combo. The Fist is good since things like flying or deep striking Monstrous Creatures can end up in your gun-line. So maybe take two Sonic Dreads, one with a fist and one with a scourge to cover you bases.

 luke1705 wrote:
Lets pretend that I don't use rhinos, and that I am not really a fan of land raiders.

How do I get my zerkers into combat without losing like all of them to shooting?

Use heldrakes to 1st turn charge their shooters and advance zerkers on foot.

What notable things does the fist wound on a 2/3+ that the scourge doesn't ?

Spellfax wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Lets pretend that I don't use rhinos, and that I am not really a fan of land raiders.

How do I get my zerkers into combat without losing like all of them to shooting?

Use heldrakes to 1st turn charge their shooters and advance zerkers on foot.

I do like this idea a lot conceptually, but no self respecting person is going to let you charge the things that you want to charge. 8th edition - the age of bubble wrap

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:

Plus, a roll of a '1' is always a fail. Regardless of modifiers.

Correct me if i'm wrong but a roll of 1 with a +1 modifier can be a success

well.. a 1 always fails for attacks, wounds.. saves..

However, a 1 with +1 modifier is not a 1, it's a 2.

If the rules said a natural 1 failed, then you'd be right, but they don't.


If you think a 1 with a +1 modifier is still always a fail, then is a 2 with a +1 modifier a fail for a model with WS/BS/Sv of 3+?

The rule literally says "a roll of 1 fails irrespective of any modifiers"

 luke1705 wrote:

Spellfax wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Lets pretend that I don't use rhinos, and that I am not really a fan of land raiders.

How do I get my zerkers into combat without losing like all of them to shooting?

Use heldrakes to 1st turn charge their shooters and advance zerkers on foot.

I do like this idea a lot conceptually, but no self respecting person is going to let you charge the things that you want to charge. 8th edition - the age of bubble wrap

it does create a great cinematic, giant demon jet planes plunging into hth.

atleast the drakes can fly and ignore intervening models and causes them to bubble wrap better. (no landing areas).

Enjoy!

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:

Plus, a roll of a '1' is always a fail. Regardless of modifiers.

Correct me if i'm wrong but a roll of 1 with a +1 modifier can be a success

well.. a 1 always fails for attacks, wounds.. saves..

However, a 1 with +1 modifier is not a 1, it's a 2.

If the rules said a natural 1 failed, then you'd be right, but they don't.


If you think a 1 with a +1 modifier is still always a fail, then is a 2 with a +1 modifier a fail for a model with WS/BS/Sv of 3+?

The rule literally says "a roll of 1 fails irrespective of any modifiers"

So why all the hype about chaos lord or prescience and plasma squad ? For save a 1 is always failure, but i dont remember seeing this apply for hits, wound or other.

What notable things does the fist wound on a 2/3+ that the scourge doesn't ?

The Fist will always make more dammage than the scourge when attacking models with 3HP or more. Lots of attack are greats, but don't forget this new variable : Dmg per attack.

I put back my mathammer Hellbrut fist vs Scourge :
- On multi-wound (>2 HP) target :
- T8 or more : 3.11HP with scourge vs 4.44HP for Hellfist
- T7 : 4.14HP with scourge vs 4.44HP for Hellfist
- T6 to 5 : 4.14HP with scourge vs 5.55HP

So if you want an hellbrute to deal with TEQ/MEQ/GEQ take the scourge. I would say an E.C. got enough S4 shoot to deal with this and is in dire need of anti-MC/Tank.

The lord grants you re-rolls, so you're looking at 1/36 chance to overheat plasma instead of 1/6

Pre science is nice because most units are only BS 3+, so they'll hit more often. But it doesn't really help with overheat except for when you roll a 2. So it's like a 3% less likely chance that you'll overheat if you re-rolled a 2 and got a 1. Not that big of a deal, but a buddy of mine did just that on his first 3 CP re-rolls of 8th edition!

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:

Plus, a roll of a '1' is always a fail. Regardless of modifiers.

Correct me if i'm wrong but a roll of 1 with a +1 modifier can be a success

well.. a 1 always fails for attacks, wounds.. saves..

However, a 1 with +1 modifier is not a 1, it's a 2.

If the rules said a natural 1 failed, then you'd be right, but they don't.


If you think a 1 with a +1 modifier is still always a fail, then is a 2 with a +1 modifier a fail for a model with WS/BS/Sv of 3+?

The rule literally says "a roll of 1 fails irrespective of any modifiers"

Yeah I really should learn to triple check before I post

 luke1705 wrote:
The lord grants you re-rolls, so you're looking at 1/36 chance to overheat plasma instead of 1/6

Pre science is nice because most units are only BS 3+, so they'll hit more often. But it doesn't really help with overheat except for when you roll a 2. So it's like a 3% less likely chance that you'll overheat if you re-rolled a 2 and got a 1. Not that big of a deal, but a buddy of mine did just that on his first 3 CP re-rolls of 8th edition!

Ok, so the lord work because it's a reroll, but prescience doesn't because it's a modificator ?

Yes that's correct. You can always re-roll a 1, but you can never "auto succeed" when you roll a 1, even if you technically hit on a "1+" by having WS 2+ with +1 to hit, for example.

GW always wants you to be able to theoretically fail a roll. Otherwise, it's not a dice game.

kaintxu wrote:
So if you guys had to add one of the following, which one would you choose?

-renegade knight
- kytan
- lord of skulls
- brass scorpion

I own a Kytan and a LoS.

Id always use the Kytan unless it was some massive game. LoS not only looks like a pile of crap honestly, but its so over coasted its still worthless. Hence why Forgeworld took the cool torso and up part and make it a million times better looking.

Kytan looks good and is good. Same goes for the knight really.

Brass Scorpion is cool, but again very expensive (though less then the LoS which further states why he is terrible) so hes not going to be in any tourney winning list either. but id take him if I played a 3k game and such

str00dles1 wrote:
LoS not only looks like a pile of crap honestly, but its so over coasted its still worthless.

Hahahaha! Are you serious? I played a doubles 4000pt game and 3500pt game yesterday taking the LoS and he rofl stomped everything (or rofl tracked maybe?)! The necron player (one of my opponents in the doubles) dropped two Monoliths down in our deployment and out walked a 10 man unit of Immortals and a 20 man unit of Warriors, 1st turn after they came in the LoS had shot+burnt the Immortals to death and blue the Monolith sky high and the 2nd turn it did the same to the other Monolith and the Warriors. In the 3500pt game the LoS smashed through an entire Inquisition detachment, assault terminators a couple of LRBTs and then exploded wiping a 1/4 of the board (and clearing up an objective). If you have the points, the LoS will not dissapoint (especially if you use Warptime + Prescience on it).

 mrhappyface wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
LoS not only looks like a pile of crap honestly, but its so over coasted its still worthless.

Hahahaha! Are you serious? I played a doubles 4000pt game and 3500pt game yesterday taking the LoS and he rofl stomped everything (or rofl tracked maybe?)! The necron player (one of my opponents in the doubles) dropped two Monoliths down in our deployment and out walked a 10 man unit of Immortals and a 20 man unit of Warriors, 1st turn after they came in the LoS had shot+burnt the Immortals to death and blue the Monolith sky high and the 2nd turn it did the same to the other Monolith and the Warriors. In the 3500pt game the LoS smashed through an entire Inquisition detachment, assault terminators a couple of LRBTs and then exploded wiping a 1/4 of the board (and clearing up an objective). If you have the points, the LoS will not dissapoint (especially if you use Warptime + Prescience on it).

which...is my point you are proving. Like I said, if I had 3.5k or 4k. sure id bring one for fun. Im speaking in the context of the "average game" and tourney game setting for 2k points, which he is worthless because of how expensive he is.

str00dles1 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
LoS not only looks like a pile of crap honestly, but its so over coasted its still worthless.

Hahahaha! Are you serious? I played a doubles 4000pt game and 3500pt game yesterday taking the LoS and he rofl stomped everything (or rofl tracked maybe?)! The necron player (one of my opponents in the doubles) dropped two Monoliths down in our deployment and out walked a 10 man unit of Immortals and a 20 man unit of Warriors, 1st turn after they came in the LoS had shot+burnt the Immortals to death and blue the Monolith sky high and the 2nd turn it did the same to the other Monolith and the Warriors. In the 3500pt game the LoS smashed through an entire Inquisition detachment, assault terminators a couple of LRBTs and then exploded wiping a 1/4 of the board (and clearing up an objective). If you have the points, the LoS will not dissapoint (especially if you use Warptime + Prescience on it).

which...is my point you are proving. Like I said, if I had 3.5k or 4k. sure id bring one for fun. Im speaking in the context of the "average game" and tourney game setting for 2k points, which he is worthless because of how expensive he is.

I don't know, a Lord of Skulls supported by a psyker or two could do a hell of a lot of damage, you could even take some infantry with the left over points to sit on objectives. Versus say StormRaven spam, with Prescience the LoS would do around 8.5 wounds per turn and any psykers with him could do 2 more mortal wounds, with some lucky rolls you could destroy a StormRaven in a turn. Versus non-SR spam lists, you have ground targets which means the LoS is going to have a field day.

 mrhappyface wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
LoS not only looks like a pile of crap honestly, but its so over coasted its still worthless.

Hahahaha! Are you serious? I played a doubles 4000pt game and 3500pt game yesterday taking the LoS and he rofl stomped everything (or rofl tracked maybe?)! The necron player (one of my opponents in the doubles) dropped two Monoliths down in our deployment and out walked a 10 man unit of Immortals and a 20 man unit of Warriors, 1st turn after they came in the LoS had shot+burnt the Immortals to death and blue the Monolith sky high and the 2nd turn it did the same to the other Monolith and the Warriors. In the 3500pt game the LoS smashed through an entire Inquisition detachment, assault terminators a couple of LRBTs and then exploded wiping a 1/4 of the board (and clearing up an objective). If you have the points, the LoS will not dissapoint (especially if you use Warptime + Prescience on it).

which...is my point you are proving. Like I said, if I had 3.5k or 4k. sure id bring one for fun. Im speaking in the context of the "average game" and tourney game setting for 2k points, which he is worthless because of how expensive he is.

I don't know, a Lord of Skulls supported by a psyker or two could do a hell of a lot of damage, you could even take some infantry with the left over points to sit on objectives. Versus say StormRaven spam, with Prescience the LoS would do around 8.5 wounds per turn and any psykers with him could do 2 more mortal wounds, with some lucky rolls you could destroy a StormRaven in a turn. Versus non-SR spam lists, you have ground targets which means the LoS is going to have a field day.

Thanks for the input guys.

I don´t think any of the ones I mentioned is bad, I was just looking into which one would actually be the most competitive option.

Kytan, while cheaper, seems to lack in the shoot department compared to the LoS or Skopion, though of course it is a fair cheaper and you could add in a few things. We could split them into two levels.

BIG:
- LoS
- Scorpion

MEDIOUM
- Kytan
- Knights.

Which would you consider the better option in each category?

kaintxu wrote:
Thanks for the input guys.

I don´t think any of the ones I mentioned is bad, I was just looking into which one would actually be the most competitive option.

Kytan, while cheaper, seems to lack in the shoot department compared to the LoS or Skopion, though of course it is a fair cheaper and you could add in a few things. We could split them into two levels.

BIG:
- LoS
- Scorpion

MEDIOUM
- Kytan
- Knights.

Which would you consider the better option in each category?

LoS VS Scorpion:
I don't think you could go wrong with either; the scorpion is cheaper, starts off with more attacks and has more shooting but; the LoS is tougher, it has more choice in it's cc attacks and it's still deadly as it gets more damaged. It's up to your taste I guess, they both do a similar job.

Kytan VS Knight:
Again they are about even; the Kytan's invulnerbale works no matter what and it regens a wound each turn but the Knight has more wounds; the Kytan's gatler is better than the Knight but the Knight can choose a different shooting weapon and can take carapace weapons; the Kytan has more attacks in cc but the knight can swap it's weapon out for the thunderstrike gauntlet or another ranged weapon. The Kytan is better if you really want to get into the thick of the fight or you are expecting your opponant to try to charge you but the Knight is better if you just want a gun platform that can potentially get into a combat and finish something off.

Based on your criteria and categories, Brass Scorpion and Kytan for sure

str00dles1 wrote:

kaintxu wrote:
So if you guys had to add one of the following, which one would you choose?

-renegade knight
- kytan
- lord of skulls
- brass scorpion

I own a Kytan and a LoS.

Id always use the Kytan unless it was some massive game. LoS not only looks like a pile of crap honestly, but its so over coasted its still worthless. Hence why Forgeworld took the cool torso and up part and make it a million times better looking.

Kytan looks good and is good. Same goes for the knight really.

Brass Scorpion is cool, but again very expensive (though less then the LoS which further states why he is terrible) so hes not going to be in any tourney winning list either. but id take him if I played a 3k game and such

What are you taking alongside the Kytan?

How do we feel about Cypher? I realize that Fallen are kinda meh compared to Chosen, but Cypher himself is not too shabby for 110 points (or whatever he costs, I don't have my index handy at the moment).

 ZergSmasher wrote:
How do we feel about Cypher? I realize that Fallen are kinda meh compared to Chosen, but Cypher himself is not too shabby for 110 points (or whatever he costs, I don't have my index handy at the moment).

Cypher is kinda cool because you can just have him run around doing his own thing, and 5/6 games he won't be a kill point so you don't have to worry about those invested points.

 andysonic1 wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

kaintxu wrote:
So if you guys had to add one of the following, which one would you choose?

-renegade knight
- kytan
- lord of skulls
- brass scorpion

I own a Kytan and a LoS.

Id always use the Kytan unless it was some massive game. LoS not only looks like a pile of crap honestly, but its so over coasted its still worthless. Hence why Forgeworld took the cool torso and up part and make it a million times better looking.

Kytan looks good and is good. Same goes for the knight really.

Brass Scorpion is cool, but again very expensive (though less then the LoS which further states why he is terrible) so hes not going to be in any tourney winning list either. but id take him if I played a 3k game and such

What are you taking alongside the Kytan?

Well still I havent decided. I want to try and make something competitive around them. I love all models, but preffer kytan over regular knight and while I love the scorpion, I think LoS is better looking

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
How do we feel about Cypher? I realize that Fallen are kinda meh compared to Chosen, but Cypher himself is not too shabby for 110 points (or whatever he costs, I don't have my index handy at the moment).

Cypher is kinda cool because you can just have him run around doing his own thing, and 5/6 games he won't be a kill point so you don't have to worry about those invested points.

I'm running a fallen themed chaos army this ed and i'm struggling to find a place for him, as his role is a bit average. He cant jump into transports and his aura only effects fallen, which are a sub par elite choice compared to chosen.

He will end up being a foot slogger with or without a squad of fallen accompanying him. Maybe they play a role holding down objectives and responding to deep strikes? I need to play test them a bit more but so far im not really loving them, which is frustrating given the theme of my army.

Has anyone got any suggestions on how to use cypher and the fallen effectively?