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Eldenfirefly wrote: Anyone tried Belakor this edition? He flies 14. with warptime, and 6 attacks, he is kinda like a mini Magnus in that you can cast a warptime, then move 14 giving him a 28 inch move total and then charge a flyer (SR). His weapon does 3 damage.
Thing is, he can be hidden. So, when you don't get to go first, he is less likely to get shot off the board compared to say Magnus, and of course, he is a lot cheaper.
BTW, I can't see the attraction in cultists in this edition. A basic 5 man CSM costs just 15 more points per squad but has a 3+ save which becomes a 2+ save in cover. Its far more survivable compared to a 10 man cultist squad with a 6+ save. So, unless you need a big squad for bubble wrapping purposes... otherwise, if I really wanted to take a troop choice, I would rather go with CSM. What do you guys think?
I like Be'lakor. Having the Dark Hereticus powers but not the Heretic Astartes keyword is a bit odd so I've found he's best in mixed Daemon/CSM lists. He can cast more powers than a normal DP, has a better save and still gives to hit bluffs to Daemon units. And that sword is no joke, with -5 AP your target had better have an inv save.
So with the Daemon buff he's best with a Daemon escort. Last time I tried using six plague drones which worked ok with their speed. Screamers might be ok too, I think they are underrated atm. Be'lakor would cast smite and prescience on a nearby sicarian.
As for cultists they aren't as good as 7th edition. Fair point about 5 man CSM squads but if I didn't have a specific use for them I probably wouldn't bother. The only troops really worth it imo are the cult units depending upon the theme of your list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has FW released any info/restrictions on what units can be nominated as specific legions (I'm mainly wondering about Death Guard). The chaos index lists the standard GW units that can be taken as DG (e.g. a Predator) and the FW one lists specific units that are DG by default (e.g. Necrosius) but there doesn't seem to be any indication about whether or not the undefined Legion FW units (e.g. Sicarian) can be taken as DG.
So how to play it? A) only the units with specific permission to be DG can be taken as such, or B) if there's no listed restriction (as for most of the FW units) they are fair game to be designated as DG? I realise it doesn't really make much difference atm due to no Legion tactics but I'm guessing it could when the codex comes out and I want to keep it pure DG if I can for the moment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/25 08:51:23
Has FW released any info/restrictions on what units can be nominated as specific legions (I'm mainly wondering about Death Guard). The chaos index lists the standard GW units that can be taken as DG (e.g. a Predator) and the FW one lists specific units that are DG by default (e.g. Necrosius) but there doesn't seem to be any indication about whether or not the undefined Legion FW units (e.g. Sicarian) can be taken as DG.
So how to play it? A) only the units with specific permission to be DG can be taken as such, or B) if there's no listed restriction (as for most of the FW units) they are fair game to be designated as DG? I realise it doesn't really make much difference atm due to no Legion tactics but I'm guessing it could when the codex comes out and I want to keep it pure DG if I can for the moment.
As per the FWFaQ:
Q. Are there any restrictions on which Legion I can choose when replacing the <Legion> Faction Keyword on datasheets within this book?
A. Yes, as follows:
You can only choose for a unit to be from the World Eaters Legion if it has the Khorne keyword, or if it has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword and you choose to replace that with Khorne.
You can only choose for a unit to be from the Thousand Sons Legion if it has the Tzeentch keyword, or if it has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword and you choose to replace that with Tzeentch. You cannot choose for a Hellforged Rapier Battery, a Chaos Hellwright or a Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant to be from the Thousand Sons.
You can only choose for a unit to be from the Death Guard Legion if it has the Nurgle keyword, or if it has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword and you choose to replace that with Nurgle. You cannot choose for
a Hellforged Rapier Battery, a Chaos Hellwright or a Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant to be from the Death Guard.
You can only choose for a unit to be from the Emperor’s Children Legion if it has the Slaanesh keyword, or if it has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword and you choose to replace that with Slaanesh. Otherwise, any of the units in this book can be from any Legion.
Has FW released any info/restrictions on what units can be nominated as specific legions (I'm mainly wondering about Death Guard). The chaos index lists the standard GW units that can be taken as DG (e.g. a Predator) and the FW one lists specific units that are DG by default (e.g. Necrosius) but there doesn't seem to be any indication about whether or not the undefined Legion FW units (e.g. Sicarian) can be taken as DG.
So how to play it? A) only the units with specific permission to be DG can be taken as such, or B) if there's no listed restriction (as for most of the FW units) they are fair game to be designated as DG? I realise it doesn't really make much difference atm due to no Legion tactics but I'm guessing it could when the codex comes out and I want to keep it pure DG if I can for the moment.
As per the FWFaQ:
Q. Are there any restrictions on which Legion I can choose when replacing the <Legion> Faction Keyword on datasheets within this book?
A. Yes, as follows:
You can only choose for a unit to be from the World Eaters Legion if it has the Khorne keyword, or if it has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword and you choose to replace that with Khorne.
You can only choose for a unit to be from the Thousand Sons Legion if it has the Tzeentch keyword, or if it has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword and you choose to replace that with Tzeentch. You cannot choose for a Hellforged Rapier Battery, a Chaos Hellwright or a Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant to be from the Thousand Sons.
You can only choose for a unit to be from the Death Guard Legion if it has the Nurgle keyword, or if it has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword and you choose to replace that with Nurgle. You cannot choose for
a Hellforged Rapier Battery, a Chaos Hellwright or a Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant to be from the Death Guard.
You can only choose for a unit to be from the Emperor’s Children Legion if it has the Slaanesh keyword, or if it has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword and you choose to replace that with Slaanesh. Otherwise, any of the units in this book can be from any Legion.
I'm trying to play pure death guard, but I have no idea how to deal with this. Do you guys have any strategies/tips I can use to handle an army like this?
Kitted out Rhinos should be able to neuter the Tac squads. 2x Combi-bolters plus havoc launcher really puts the hurt on small MEQ units.
The real problem is the rest of his list. A heavily mechanized mobile list is going to be hell on earth for Death Guard. I recommend heavy weapons wherever you can get them. Prepare your Pox Walkers to protect your units against assault. Focus on zone control and moving gradually around the board. You'll want something in deep strike, something melta-y if you can, so you can have the option to either drop in on an objective or drop in and remove one of the dreads.
Death Guard don't have access to Havocs sadly but can use Predators, so I'd recommend taking two Predators to pop open vehicles and then have your infantry shoot it out with theirs. Plague Marines are very resilient to bolter fire so tactical marines won't bother you much. Helbrutes are also worth looking at because they can bring heavy weapons and smash stuff in close combat too. Additionally, Helbrute models work particularly well with Death Guard due to all their mutations and growths.
tbonebakker wrote: Ok, I have some theory crafting going on in my head right now with the leadership stats. I'll list the units in mind, and we'll put 2 and 2 together.
Zarakynel * 6" -2 leadership aura, also can take cacophonic choir power, WC 7 - Roll 2D6 closest units suffer mortal wounds for each point that exceeds their total leadership.
FW dreadnought variants with butcher cannon * -2 leadership until end of turn if unit suffers a loss of model. (not cumulative)
Be'lakor * 12" -1 leadership aura, but only in the moral phase
FW dreadnoughts, or sicaran tank with some form of malignatas weapon. Instead of rolling on their toughness to wound, Roll3D6 if result is greater than units leadership suffer 2D6dmg.
These are the key guys ^
Samus for kicks and giggles, another -1 leadership aura, but he affects psychic power ability, so not practical with cacophonic choir.
By the way I'm not saying any of this is practical, but fun to consider.
Mass units - In theory, lets say Zara is in combat with a larger group. After having her way with it for 1 turn, she falls back the following turn(can fall back and still charge same turn). Ok now the units is open to fire. Lets say also be'lakor was nearby to give Zara rerolls or something(his aura doesn't apply yet, only in moral phase). Ok psychic phase Zara casts cacophonic choir for that unit who is sufferring -2 to their leadership for some more possible dmg. Now the unit is open to fire with the butcher cannon, assuming they lose at least one model, they are at -4 leadership. Assault phase, does Zara need to charge in to finished them off? Probably not. Maybe attack a different unit, but stay within 6 inches. Now for moral phase, if everything works out. They are - 5 leadership with Be'lakor near by. If the unit was LD 7, they are now at 2, plus any losses, and the roll of the dice. No unit will survive.
Not as useful for heavy duty units. Butcher cannon -2 leadership only applies if the unit loses a model. Plus they really don't have issues in the moral phase, so be'lakor is not as useful. But still have Zara near by, you can use the Malignatas weapon which does up to 2d6dmg, if you roll 3d6 and its higher than their leadership. If they were leader ship 9 or 10, they would be 7 or 8, and with an average roll of 10.5 it should improve your wounding chances with the malignatas weapon.
I sent in an FAQ to forgeworld on if the butcher cannon is not cumulative with just itself, like successful multiple shots. Or if that means its not cumulative with any other negative leadership modifiers like Zara, Samus, and Be'lakor. They replied, but they said they would have to send it to the rules team.
Accidentally posted this in the chaos daemon thread meant to post it in this one, so I deleted other and moved it here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/25 17:05:15
What are peoples thoughts on a Leviathan Grav-Flux spam list?
Take Abaddon or Kharn for re-rolls + counter charge along with 5 Leviathans with 2xGrav-Flux and 2xHellflamers and maybe some Brimstones for screening. This list could reliably bring down 4 StormRavens per turn and verus 50 man conscript units each Leviathan has 20d3 shots! Versus any unit that tries to charge them they also get 2d6 autohits at S5 AP-1 D2!
I really want to try something like this out.
1999pts
Spearhead Detachment
HQ Abaddon
-253pts
Troops Horrors
- Blue Horro
- 23xBrimstone Horrors
-51pts
Heavy Support Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought
- 2xGrav-Flux Bombardment
- 2xHellflamers
-339pts
mcsheehy wrote: Not going to lie... Bloat Drones are stupidly pts efficient. Take/Summon a Herald of Nurgle to make them S7 and heal them.
I killed 2 dreads with 3 drones. Killed them off in his turn on Overwatch.
I agree. I really need to get a couple more Bloat Drones myself. It's funny how when the edition first was getting ready to drop everyone was saying the Bloat Drone was the worst unit in the set and that it was overcosted. Now everyone is saying how awesome they are. Oh, the irony.
As for DG heavy weapons, I think all we can do is take Helbrutes, Predators, and Defilers. I'm thinking maybe the new Plagueburst Crawler I've heard tell about might be a good heavy support choice, although honestly I have no idea what it actually does. Other than that, we can always resort to taking Daemon allies and going with smite spam.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/7/24, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Imperial Knights: ~2300 | Leagues of Votann: ~1300 | Tyranids: ~3400 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000 | Kruleboyz: ~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: ~700
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2024: 40 | Total models painted in 2025: 23 | Current main painting project: Tomb Kings
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You need your bumps felt. With a patented, Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000.
The Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000. It only looks like several bricks crudely gaffer taped to a cricket bat.
Grotsnik Corp. Sorry, No Refunds.
The Plagueburst Crawler looks like a Vindicator, and Death Guard can't take Vindicators, so... It's probably a Vindicator with a special Death Guard trick.
Regarding the grav-flux spam idea, I've considered it as well but 18" is way too short a range for a dakka dreadnought IMO. Maybe it works out better in practice than it does in my head but I just see you getting kited everywhere.
TheWizard wrote: If I were to take a combined list of CSM and Renegades and heretics could I load my Berzkers into a Storm Lord?
Two issues: 1.) I don't think R&H have access to the Stormlord (#sadface 'cause I own one and want to run it, too!) 2.) If they -did- have it, most likely would only allow R&H units, like the Imperial one does for Astra Militarum.
Arachnofiend wrote: Regarding the grav-flux spam idea, I've considered it as well but 18" is way too short a range for a dakka dreadnought IMO. Maybe it works out better in practice than it does in my head but I just see you getting kited everywhere.
That is a downside to the list but they can still move and fire at BS3+ re-rolling all misses, which gives you a first turn effective range of 26". Plus, with T8 2+/5++ W14 shassies you'll most likely survive long enough to get into range. For example, it takes about 14 lascannons at BS3+ to take down a single dread.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
TheWizard wrote: If I were to take a combined list of CSM and Renegades and heretics could I load my Berzkers into a Storm Lord?
Two issues: 1.) I don't think R&H have access to the Stormlord (#sadface 'cause I own one and want to run it, too!) 2.) If they -did- have it, most likely would only allow R&H units, like the Imperial one does for Astra Militarum.
Thanks clearing it up for me, In the R&H section of IA it does only say BaneBlade but I was hoping it meant all variants.
TheWizard wrote: If I were to take a combined list of CSM and Renegades and heretics could I load my Berzkers into a Storm Lord?
Two issues: 1.) I don't think R&H have access to the Stormlord (#sadface 'cause I own one and want to run it, too!) 2.) If they -did- have it, most likely would only allow R&H units, like the Imperial one does for Astra Militarum.
Thanks clearing it up for me, In the R&H section of IA it does only say BaneBlade but I was hoping it meant all variants.
I dearly, dearly hope they add it sometime. I've been itching to field it in some Apoc games with my Iron Warriors and R&H's. Would make a great centerpiece in addition to looking fluffy. Perhaps GW will give some love to R&H with all of the Imperium/Chaos focus this edition.
mrhappyface wrote: What are peoples thoughts on a Leviathan Grav-Flux spam list?
Take Abaddon or Kharn for re-rolls + counter charge along with 5 Leviathans with 2xGrav-Flux and 2xHellflamers and maybe some Brimstones for screening. This list could reliably bring down 4 StormRavens per turn and verus 50 man conscript units each Leviathan has 20d3 shots! Versus any unit that tries to charge them they also get 2d6 autohits at S5 AP-1 D2!
I really want to try something like this out.
1999pts
Spearhead Detachment
HQ Abaddon
-253pts
Troops Horrors
- Blue Horro
- 23xBrimstone Horrors
-51pts
Heavy Support Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought
- 2xGrav-Flux Bombardment
- 2xHellflamers
-339pts
The Grav-flux bombard wording is ambigious at best. The +D3 attacks per 5 models is clearly meant to be for Monster, Vehicle, or Titanic units since the sentence carries on from the main paragraph (just like in cumulitive sentence re: the Butecher cannon abilities above). It's so poorly written though so if an opponent will accept that interpretation then go for it, they will get utterly wiped by Leviathans with this interpretation of that weapon. I showed it to my group and they laughed at me, so I run dual Buttcher cannons & hellflamers instead, still a good unit with those weapons - not nice to charge.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/26 15:38:31
The grav flux is really clearly written there is a full stop between the this unit does 5 damage to titanic, monsters and vehicles and the add d3 attacks per every 5 models in a unit. Also please think things threw what monster, vehicle or titanic unit comes in units of 5+ ?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/26 15:53:10
I mean, I've read the rules and I don't reach that conclusion at all. The multiple hits for over 5 models is standard for most things that used to be blast.
Captyn_Bob wrote: I mean, I've read the rules and I don't reach that conclusion at all. The multiple hits for over 5 models is standard for most things that used to be blast.
I honestly think it is the best blast rules for any weapon and think it should be standard for all former blast weapons.
Rydria wrote: The grav flux is really clearly written there is a full stop between the this unit does 5 damage to titanic, monsters and vehicles and the add d3 attacks per every 5 models in a unit. Also please think things threw what monster, vehicle or titanic unit comes in units of 5+ ?
That was my argument. But not many people were accepting it as it just seems insanely good. While you accuse me of failing to 'think things threw' (sic) surely by the same token you wouldn't expect a circa 350 point Leviathan with dual Grav-flux bombards to get 22xD3 shots at S9 -5AP against a unit of 50 Guardsmen because if that's the case then there is no reason to take any other weapon in the entire book. I mean it's not like a Leviathan is easy to stop, they're excellent! Against an army like Imperial Guard you can shoot their tanks with 2xD3 BS2+ S9-5AP D5 hits or their infantry with 22xD3 BS2+ S9 -5AP hits. If that's the case then 3 of these with dual Grav-flux go in every army without even a thought. Why take any other weapons at all? I hope FW clear this up because I want to take these against people who bring 150+ Guardsmen to teach them a lesson.
PS. The full stop means nothing. There is one in the entry above for the Butcher Canonons, 'this modifier is not cumulative', does that mean that's a seperate weapon entry too or is it part of the paragraph on LDde-buff above? FW poorly written rules are to blame.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 17:39:04
You'd have to drop something to take a couple with double Butcher arrays since they are +30pts per model, that's either the Horrors screening, Abaddon's re-rolls or another Leviathan. Is being able to deal with MSU easier and better range worth dropping one of those?
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
I actually really like the 16 shots plus the 2 hellflamers by the leviathan even against hordes. You would need 8d3 (20 man squads) shots to make the number of hits even. Of course, at 20 man squads, so long as they don't have an invuln, the bombard pulls ahead (except for the fact that its range is worse). I would argue that the lack of range is sort of made up for by the fact that it has a better AP, but the better save squads also tend to be smaller. Or brimstones. So it's situational.
The damage is the big bonus for big things (of course) but even against a tank with no invuln, the numbers aren't great. Let's say you've found a T8 3+ tank with no invuln (and are in range of both so moving isn't an issue, even though it likely will be in game). This is also the absolute best case scenario for the bombard.
You're averaging 5.5 damage per round with the butcher cannon. With the bombard, you're getting 11.5 damage. Obviously great, but bring it back down to T7 and the butcher cannons are up to 7.3 on average. Give the tank a 5++ and the bombard does only 7.66 damage. Especially with things that have an invuln save, the command re-rolls make the bombard much more boom or bust than the butcher cannons.
To me, they're just a little too fringe to take and hope that they do well all the time.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/26 21:54:21
I'm coming into this edition hoping to use some of the characters I never had a go with last time out, so how would you recommend I deploy Dark Apostles or Warpsmiths to keep them both useful and alive for more than a single round? Now that our big daemon engines regenerate is there much point in the smiths?
Dark Apostles go hand in hand with Khorne Berzerkers. Warpsmiths I'm not sold on, maybe if you run one of the big LOW tanks you could get enough value for it to be worth it but I think in most instances you'd get more mileage out of any of the other HQ choices.
Tried out a Dark Apostle escorting two Helbrutes with Fist/ Scourges yesterday. In theory a very good combo, in practice the damn Wraiths made all of their 3++...
Overall I must say I'm a bit sad about my Death guard so far. While I've won most of the games at the end of 7th ed. due to Traitor Legions/ Obsec, I rarely make it to round 3 now and so far have only lost, playing against Necrons and Dark Eldar.
I get the feeling CSM are just too weak now to withstand any alpha-strike and don't have the firepower (outside FW) for an own Alpha-strike. I especially miss my mark of Nurgle.
Really hoping the Codices will improve CSM/DG, as right now I'm having more problems with them than in 6th/7th, where they were considered one of the weakest army in the game.
~16000 Astra Militarum: 
~1200 | Imperial Knights: 
~2300 | Leagues of Votann: 
~1300 | Tyranids: 
~3400 | Stormcast Eternals: 
~5000 | Kruleboyz: 
~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: 
~700
- 2000 pts < mostly 
