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In answer to the question about Bloat Drones. Yes... Yes I have ran them in outrider.
I've taken up to 4 in a 2000pts game. They ALWAYS kill more than their points value.

The herald combo is not great, as when you fly up the table you lose that +1s.
However, Alphastrike lists will get countered hard with the S7 weapon and the Fleshy Abundance psy power.

Supposedly world eaters get a stratagem which lets berserkers pile in and attack for a 3rd time holy hell

 Rydria wrote:
Supposedly world eaters get a stratagem which lets berserkers pile in and attack for a 3rd time holy hell

Source?

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Supposedly world eaters get a stratagem which lets berserkers pile in and attack for a 3rd time holy hell

Source?

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NZ/White-Dwarf-August-2017-ENG

Fury of khorne 3CP choose a world eaters unit it can pile in and attack an additional time (white dwarf says it works on berserkers to give them a 3rd pile in and attack)
veterans of the longwar (no idea on CP) add =1 to the to wound rolls of models (combat phase only until fully revealed)

Pretty much anything that touches a zerker unit at decent strength is going to die. A couple times over. Even a knight has a good chance of dying against a five man unit in one turn.

People will learn to save 2CP for that combat interrupt

What would last long enough to get the interrupt though? If the zerkers charged, all their attacks happen before the oppo can do anything.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
What would last long enough to get the interrupt though? If the zerkers charged, all their attacks happen before the oppo can do anything.

Custodes maybe ? They only have to survive the first wave of attacks, interrupt before the beserkers can activate a second time and pile in again.

 Rydria wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
What would last long enough to get the interrupt though? If the zerkers charged, all their attacks happen before the oppo can do anything.

Custodes maybe ? They only have to survive the first wave of attacks, interrupt before the beserkers can activate a second time and pile in again.

Doesn't the second, and now third, round of attacks go before any interrupt can take place as per the FAQ?

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
What would last long enough to get the interrupt though? If the zerkers charged, all their attacks happen before the oppo can do anything.

Custodes maybe ? They only have to survive the first wave of attacks, interrupt before the beserkers can activate a second time and pile in again.

Doesn't the second, and now third, round of attacks go before any interrupt can take place as per the FAQ?

No, while they still count as charging each round of attacks is a different activation.

It's why you could have the Bezerkers fight, then another of your charging units, then the Bezerkers again.

If it's a general World Eaters unit stratagem which it totally should be, we could see the rise of more utility units like Chosen who, with this Stratagem, can reach Berzerker levels.

Or, you know, just fight with your 20 man Berzerker blob again because feth having a toolkit when all you need IS A CHAINAXE!!!!!

If that stratagem costs 3 CP, we really need to figure out how to cheaply fill out a brigade with World Eaters. They will need those extra CP badly. Fortunately there are cheap troops in the form of Cultists, although most of the troops should be Berzerkers. Fast Attack could just be single Spawn units for very low points. Heavy Support I guess would be Havocs with just one or two special weapons per squad. I'll have to do a little research with Battlescribe to see what I can throw together.

So guys, what's the consensus on chaos marines without FW units? I'm looking over the books and there's just so few interesting things compared to the FW toys. Other than berserkers, I don't see very efficient CC units where FW has the leviathan pain train, and the FW fire support just outputs insane amounts of shootings compared to the Index heavies other than maybe predators (compare a Forgefiend to a Deredeo if you want a laugh haha).

 -Steppenwolf- wrote:
So guys, what's the consensus on chaos marines without FW units? I'm looking over the books and there's just so few interesting things compared to the FW toys. Other than berserkers, I don't see very efficient CC units where FW has the leviathan pain train, and the FW fire support just outputs insane amounts of shootings compared to the Index heavies other than maybe predators (compare a Forgefiend to a Deredeo if you want a laugh haha).

Yea I had a laugh when I did the math on my Blood Slaughter compared to my Maulerfiends. I would point out that there are plenty of interesting units, it's just that some of them are a bit overcosted.

Choppy standouts in the Index are Zerks, Helbrutes (fist / scourge) and Spawn. Helbrutes are probably a contender for choppiest unit in the game for the points cost, including FW. Levi is great and much tougher but he costs like 2.5 Helbrutes... Especially if you get that "crazed" result and just attack again with 8 attacks, lol. Spawn excel vs infantry and are very good vs armor.

Shooty standouts from index are Helbrutes (blastmaster, lascannon / missile launcher), Las Pred, and Havocs with HBs, MLs, or Plasma if you can support getting them in rapid fire range a couple times without getting charged.

 -Steppenwolf- wrote:
So guys, what's the consensus on chaos marines without FW units? I'm looking over the books and there's just so few interesting things compared to the FW toys. Other than berserkers, I don't see very efficient CC units where FW has the leviathan pain train, and the FW fire support just outputs insane amounts of shootings compared to the Index heavies other than maybe predators (compare a Forgefiend to a Deredeo if you want a laugh haha).

ForgeWorld remains pay to win as usual and the nature of CSM for CQC seems to be very few attacks without it. Maulerfiends and Zerkers are basically all we have unless you manage to get a Defiler into combat where it still has very few attacks to wrestle with (albeit at strength 16). If you grab a scourge on one then it might be something of a CQC beast but also easily bogged down by tarpits. Warp Talons are also fantastic in assault and deny overwatches so they're good support to get your berserkers in unmolested. Finally, our Lord of Skulls remains a champion of absolute carnage, able to wipe entire fields of space marines solo, and his weapon has been upgraded to swing 3 times per swing allowing him to get up to 24 attacks per turn with it.

I think CSM is more about the shooty and magic as usual. If you want those close combat units, resort to our flip side faction brothers the Daemons.

 Arkaine wrote:
Maulerfiends and Zerkers are basically all we have unless you manage to get a Defiler into combat

I have 3 Maulerfiends and I love them, but they are not competitive, for the points sadly. From a mathammer perspective, you forgot Helbrutes and Spawn. Spawn are actually slightly better vs armor (T7+) than Zerks, and Helbrutes (fist/scourge) are among the best anti-armor close combat in the game. point for point.

Not really a fan of Mathammer or theorycraft because it can fall flat in practice. These are just my personal opinions given the experiences I've had on the table, though I agree that if the game were played in a vacuum then things would be different.

If you like the spawn, go for it, but personally I'd never field them again given their non-daemon saves, lousy weapon skill, and terminator point cost. When they had 12" moves they were nice wound soak tarpits but with all the multi-wound weapons now they explode rapidly and I'd rather take cultists. Offensively sure they're math friendly but they're not rerolling charge ranges and move as fast as possessed, who just make these guys look redundant if backed by daemon buffer support. At least other marines can ride in transports to get where they're going.

As for the Helbrutes... you're looking at 155 points for a guy with no guns that is easier to kill than a Rhino. I'd rather just spend the extra 100 to upgrade to a daemon-fueled regenerating Defiler complete with all its flamer and torso cannon nonsense. Where the Maulerfiend wins out is that extra survival and speed to actually get into combat in the first place in this edition of mass shooting blobs and save-ignoring heavy weapons.

 Arkaine wrote:
Not really a fan of Mathammer or theorycraft because it can fall flat in practice. These are just my personal opinions given the experiences I've had on the table, though I agree that if the game were played in a vacuum then things would be different.

If you like the spawn, go for it, but personally I'd never field them again given their non-daemon saves, lousy weapon skill, and terminator point cost. When they had 12" moves they were nice wound soak tarpits but with all the multi-wound weapons now they explode rapidly and I'd rather take cultists. Offensively sure they're math friendly but they're not rerolling charge ranges and move as fast as possessed, who just make these guys look redundant if backed by daemon buffer support. At least other marines can ride in transports to get where they're going.

As for the Helbrutes... you're looking at 155 points for a guy with no guns that is easier to kill than a Rhino. I'd rather just spend the extra 100 to upgrade to a daemon-fueled regenerating Defiler complete with all its flamer and torso cannon nonsense. Where the Maulerfiend wins out is that extra survival and speed to actually get into combat in the first place in this edition of mass shooting blobs and save-ignoring heavy weapons.

I agree with this.

I've seen Helbrutes and Maulerfiends in 8th and, from my experience, Maulerfiends will last long enough to get into combat (if you're lucky, if you aren't...) but Helbrutes will die as soon as they come out of cover. 3+ save on a T7 W8 model makes for a very soft target whilst a Maulerfiends 12W and 5++ will see it last slightly longer. But the games I have seen them play in they've both been quite a dissappointment (save for one friend of mine who did ok with a full list of Helbrutes: choppy brutes supported by Dakka Brutes, a Lord and a Warpsmith).

I play exclusively a melee Helbrute and I assure you if you stick to LOS blocking terrain and have plenty of other threats, your Helbrute will get into combat without issue and deal more damage than your Deamon Prince. Helbrutes are absolutely nuts. Chaos Spawn are also fantastic. They don't need an invul save when they're T5 and 4W. With four of them that's a 16 wound wall on an enormous base. It's very tough to beat that in terms of having a meat shield and definitely promotes a more melee playstyle with their good attacks and mutations. Chaos Spawn in front, cheap things to the side to prevent deep strikers from hitting your flanks, and the big boys inside moving up the board.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Chaos Spawn are also fantastic. They don't need an invul save when they're T5 and 4W. With four of them that's a 16 wound wall on an enormous base.

That mattered last edition when wounds were taken 1 at a time and shot spam mattered.

However in this edition, a lascannon deals up to 6 dmg on a lucky failed save. Named Characters generally do 3 dmg per swing. I watched in horror as my friend's thunderpuppies were deleted one by one by a simple Predator shooting its staple autocannon. Another game saw the entire squad murdered in a single round by Old One Eye. That NEVER happened in 7th edition with their stormshield protection unless you had the world's largest genestealer blob. There just weren't enough attacks for it. Now they evaporate to Ahriman punching them in the wolf.

It's much easier to delete multi-wound models than it is to erase blobs who don't carry over those excess wounds. Makes shooting lascannons a waste against Cultists but highly effective against Spawn.

Spawn and hellbrutes certainly are nice when they manage to get there, but I'm finding they die like dogs to anything better than a bolter as soon as they enter LoS. It's not always possible to go from Los-block to Los-block, especially when you have a target in mind for those units, and cover doesn't matter too much here since spawn have crappy saves anyways and helbrutes are vehicles which makes cover very difficult for them to get. How have you guys been getting them into combat?

If my opponent is shooting my Chaos Spawn with Lascannons rather than my tanks/knight/drones etc.

I'm happy to feed him those points for being an idiot.

mcsheehy wrote:
If my opponent is shooting my Chaos Spawn with Lascannons rather than my tanks/knight/drones etc.

I'm happy to feed him those points for being an idiot.

Well sure you wouldn't shoot spawn with lascannons when there's better things to kill but heavy bolters, mutilasers, krak grenades, stuff that'sthat's around s6 -1 AP and people just have around as incidental fire will shred through spawn real quick.

Not to mention all that S8 2 dmg plasma shooting that's become oh so popular now.

No save roll, wounds on 3s, and kills in 2 shots (double tap range!).

5 spawn is only 165pts, which is more than an efficient cost for what you get. 165pts of anything else will also die to dedicated lascannon or plasma fire, it's not really an argument against them.

In my own experience, spawn are great as a heavy-hitter combat unit, supporting lines of cultists or helbrutes/walkers for some extra oomph. They excel at taking out multiwound units like terminators or bikes, and can trash vehicles pretty handily too.
I like to include them in a larger assault block, rather than shooting them up by themselves (as you would in 7th because of their speed), and treat them like a unit of powerfists to crack areas the other units might have trouble with.

 McGibs wrote:
5 spawn is only 165pts, which is more than an efficient cost for what you get. 165pts of anything else will also die to dedicated lascannon or plasma fire, it's not really an argument against them.

Everything dies. That's the point of this edition. Not everything dies at the same rate. Bolters vs a Tank is bad. Lascannons vs Cultists is also bad.

165 pts of 31 Cultists is going to survive that plasma/lascannon spam way more effectively than a spawn that literally dies to two failed saves. Oh wait, WHAT SAVES??

Totally depends what you're facing I suppose. My experience says the AP and High Dmg spam is real.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
Not really a fan of Mathammer or theorycraft because it can fall flat in practice. These are just my personal opinions given the experiences I've had on the table, though I agree that if the game were played in a vacuum then things would be different.

If you like the spawn, go for it, but personally I'd never field them again given their non-daemon saves, lousy weapon skill, and terminator point cost. When they had 12" moves they were nice wound soak tarpits but with all the multi-wound weapons now they explode rapidly and I'd rather take cultists. Offensively sure they're math friendly but they're not rerolling charge ranges and move as fast as possessed, who just make these guys look redundant if backed by daemon buffer support. At least other marines can ride in transports to get where they're going.

As for the Helbrutes... you're looking at 155 points for a guy with no guns that is easier to kill than a Rhino. I'd rather just spend the extra 100 to upgrade to a daemon-fueled regenerating Defiler complete with all its flamer and torso cannon nonsense. Where the Maulerfiend wins out is that extra survival and speed to actually get into combat in the first place in this edition of mass shooting blobs and save-ignoring heavy weapons.

I agree with this.

I've seen Helbrutes and Maulerfiends in 8th and, from my experience, Maulerfiends will last long enough to get into combat (if you're lucky, if you aren't...) but Helbrutes will die as soon as they come out of cover. 3+ save on a T7 W8 model makes for a very soft target whilst a Maulerfiends 12W and 5++ will see it last slightly longer. But the games I have seen them play in they've both been quite a dissappointment (save for one friend of mine who did ok with a full list of Helbrutes: choppy brutes supported by Dakka Brutes, a Lord and a Warpsmith).

Helbrutes are durable enough. The issue is that Maulerfiends are actually fast enough to make it to combat.

Bottom line up front:
When the Helbrute gets there, he swings EIGHT TIMES, HIT ON 3s, WOUND ON 2s (maybe 3s with the scourge), -3AP, 3dmg... WRECKED... just wrecks stuff dude.

A good general will deploy smart and find a way to get his models where they need to be. The Mauler and Cultists don't do any damage when they get there anyway so who cares

That Mauler swings 4 times, HIT ON 4s... need I say more?

I'll actually keep some Spawn and a Prince near the Helbrute so the Spawn can wreck infantry, Helbrute can flip vehicles, and Prince can reroll everybody's 1s... =) That's how you accrue Blood and Skulls my friend. Now, cultists have their place too! Walk 10 up behind those monsters.. nobody is worried about shooting at them, and let them sit on the objective that the Hard Pipe Swinging Boyz just cleared off for you. Bonus points if you put a Leviathan out front of all that nasty, and a Blood Slaughterer to play too because them and Helbrutes are all in the same league / speed, they just bring different toughness and a little flavor and variety. Add Rhinos with Zerkers to taste and you are on your way to losing friends my friend.

mathammer

For context, we're talking purely most efficient point/point, not necessarily most fun or what will make you friends. For the record I love Maulerfiends and I do run them, because I'm not always trying to build the nasty lists =)

It's nice to hear the harmony of opinions, so I'm not discouraging anyone, this is mine

I expect we'll be in for a big shake up once the codex drops. A lot of SM units got points reductions to make them more competitive. Chaos needs a little re-adjustment in certain places to bring it up to speed. So I expect chaos players will be rewarded a little more for not going FW. For example, the SM pred came down in price. I think the chaos pred began a little more expensive in the index than the loyalist one. So expect preds to get cheaper for chaos too, especially when for only 8 points more you can go FW and get a pred that self heals, has a bunch of attacks on the charge and can take a bunch more weapon options. No reason whatsoever to play a vanilla pred right now.

Ghorgul wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
Has anyone had much luck with warpsmiths.

Never bothered with them before but looking at it they seem like quite the fireplatform now

For me the biggest let down is the lack of mobility, he can't keep up with the rest of my army.

Index is following the last edition: Marines can put their Techmarine on bike, but Chaos Warpsmith has to footslog. And this is a severe handicap. Thanks GW!

well GW fixed that... sortta