Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If any one God/legion got the shaft, I'd say it's probably Nurgle. Their units are tough but their offensive power seems pretty gakky.

I've been playing this nurgle list for NOVA style events lately.
I've been willing more games than losing at tourneys. It has weaknesses (mostly because it can't earn butchers bill consistently, and the only guaranteed secondary to get is 'heart of the matter') but it's a solid list.

Nurgle is in a good spot right now.

You've got your points a bit off there Sheehy, Oblits are 65pts and Havocs with Lascannons are 38pts so 8 Havocs are about equal to 5 Oblits (though the oblits are still more expensive).

On average, the Havocs do about 10.4 damage to T8 3+ models whilst the Oblits only do 8.9 damage. Now versus T7 3+, the Oblits come out on top with 11.9 damage whilst the Havocs stay at 10.4 damage.

When comparing Havocs to Oblits it's also worth considering that Havocs are more consistent: as you've shown, the Oblits damage output varies depending on good dice rolls so that damage versus T8 3+ can shoot from 2.2 damage up to 22.2 damage. As well as that, their range is only 24" whilst Havocs have double that so Havocs can quite happily sit on a back field objective and snipe whatever big monster they want whilst Oblits have to get up close.

But you also have the two 'Spare" havocs for your unit of 5.

Its 'Pts per Damage' that I'm working from mainly.

330pts for 2 units of 10 havocs. 8 Lascannons.

390pts for 6 Oblits.

Levi 369 fully equipped. (Unless Butcher Cannon Array has changed in price?)
My Levi calculation is marginally off. I forgot to turn off the Re-roll 1's. It doesn't actually make a huge difference when hitting on 2's.

The biggest difference between a Levi and 2 units of Oblits is survivability. I Will calc that tomorrow.
Havocs have the range, but they are a static unit. The Oblits can move with no penalty (slowly) and the DS negates the majority of range issues.
I suppose it depends on your preference.

But on a side note, its likely more challenging to keep the Lords re-roll 1's bubble on the Oblits. Short of throwing a lord into the backlines.

I just want Oblits in my Deathguard army! :(

Look who's here:


Not only has Morty arrived though but take a look in the top left hand corner: those are new Death Guard Raptors.

I feel slightly left out being the only chaos god without a plastic lord of war : (

I do hope World Eaters and Emperor's Children get promoted to solo codexes or at least get cult terminators and primarchs each.

Judging by the way they are facing (backs to us, facing the blight drone) and the general shape, those are primaris inceptors facing off against DG, not raptors. Not sure why this is in tactics though.

Would you guys consider a redemptor converted up with mutations too be a suitable count as leviathan ?

SilverAlien wrote:
Judging by the way they are facing (backs to us, facing the blight drone) and the general shape, those are primaris inceptors facing off against DG, not raptors. Not sure why this is in tactics though.

Nah, look at the backpacks and the angle of the base: they are facing forward and have Raptor Jump packs. Also, I remember someone mentioning (a long time ago, before DI was released) that DG might be getting new jump units, can't get a quote though it's just something I remember from long winded discussions about new release leaks.

Also, it's in tactics because I thought some Death Guard players might want to start thinking about how they can use a Magnus equivilent and how whether Raptors might need another looking at if Death Guard get their own version with Discusting Resilience.

I have no idea what you are seeing,you can even see where the little plastic transparent base thing connects into its back between the two jump pack turbines. Those are inceptors I'm 99% sure.

As for tactics, cross your fingers he and some of the other DG hqs give better auras than the garbage mortal wound thing we are stuck with in the index?

 Rydria wrote:
Would you guys consider a redemptor converted up with mutations too be a suitable count as leviathan ?

Sure, it's already been mentioned how similar the models look, albeit the redemptor being boxier and uglier.

SilverAlien wrote:
I have no idea what you are seeing,you can even see where the little plastic transparent base thing connects into its back between the two jump pack turbines. Those are inceptors I'm 99% sure.

As for tactics, cross your fingers he and some of the other DG hqs give better auras than the garbage mortal wound thing we are stuck with in the index?

The stands are clearly facing forward, the turbines are pointing upwards (like on raptors, whilst the inceptors don't actually have turbines, they have jets) and they are also painted DG green. I have no idea how you could mistake them for inceptors besides that they have the same stand.

Well Magnus gave re-rolls of 1s to hit and for saves for nearby TS and Guilliman gave re-roll to hit and wound rolls for nearby UM. Morty will probably have re-rolls for 1s to hit and a buffed mortal wound aura, something like: within 7", enemy units within an 1" of a friendly DG unit roll a d6 and take that many mortal wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rydria wrote:
Would you guys consider a redemptor converted up with mutations too be a suitable count as leviathan ?

I want to see someone do this since Redemptors are nearly half the price of a Leviathan and about the same size.

Look at the model on the far right, next to th blight drone, you can see where the base connects, you can see the shovel shoes, you can see the turbine things facing down. It's an inceptor, DG aren't going to get raptors of all things. Our only deepstrike option will be terminators (if that).

SilverAlien wrote:
Look at the model on the far right, next to th blight drone, you can see where the base connects, you can see the shovel shoes, you can see the turbine things facing down. It's an inceptor, DG aren't going to get raptors of all things. Our only deepstrike option will be terminators (if that).

So I got someone who can actually see properly to take a look at the image and they agree it's an inceptor. They showed me what you were talking about.

My bad. Alcohol, tiredeness and mild colour blindness don't make me the best at picking out new minis in blury photos. I think I'll go get some sleep now...

No worries, I'm color blind so I also know the struggle, and the photo is really low quality.

I am trying to make World Eaters work too, cos I like Kharn and berserkers. The key problem is delivery. Foot slogging absolutely doesn't work, and Rhinos... well.

Here's the problem with Rhinos. They eat into your army points. After they have delivered their payload, they don't do that much. And you really just need them for first turn mostly.

So, either forgeworld is needed, or Alpha legion or renegades. Alpha legion traits work best I think. The issue with berserkers is they can't be exposed even for one turn. They are just too dangerous in close combat NOT to get shot at.


BTW, bring on Mortarion and deathguard!

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I am trying to make World Eaters work too, cos I like Kharn and berserkers. The key problem is delivery. Foot slogging absolutely doesn't work, and Rhinos... well.

Here's the problem with Rhinos. They eat into your army points. After they have delivered their payload, they don't do that much. And you really just need them for first turn mostly.

So, either forgeworld is needed, or Alpha legion or renegades. Alpha legion traits work best I think. The issue with berserkers is they can't be exposed even for one turn. They are just too dangerous in close combat NOT to get shot at.


BTW, bring on Mortarion and deathguard!

Forgeworld has the best solution by a long shot; the only question is do you have enough money to buy it...

My friends don't play forgeworld. Its not about the money.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Look who's here:


Not only has Morty arrived though but take a look in the top left hand corner: those are new Death Guard Raptors.

BTW, I think the mask spoils it. I thought most heros are barefaced. Would have preferred a daemon like face with horns. And yeah the wings look a bit too flimsy.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I am trying to make World Eaters work too, cos I like Kharn and berserkers. The key problem is delivery. Foot slogging absolutely doesn't work, and Rhinos... well.

Here's the problem with Rhinos. They eat into your army points. After they have delivered their payload, they don't do that much. And you really just need them for first turn mostly.

So, either forgeworld is needed, or Alpha legion or renegades. Alpha legion traits work best I think. The issue with berserkers is they can't be exposed even for one turn. They are just too dangerous in close combat NOT to get shot at.


BTW, bring on Mortarion and deathguard!

Until they get their own codex, Khorne wont work. Simple as that. I have nearly every forgeworld model for them. IVe tried them with shooting, only deamons, a mix. You name it. He at the time is just the weakest god there is currently. Its a melee army in a shooting game.

My best advice is shelf it for now and play another army you have, or start another one til he gets a codex

Well, I am actually open to a mixed sort of army with Khorne for melee and other elements for psychic and shooting. Just need to find that balance. There's something very satisfying about deleting entire units when you get into melee combat.

So, erm yeah. it doesn't have to be world eaters. It doesn't even have to be mass Khorne berserkers. It just has to have like maybe one or two units.

Besides, I feel that CSM will never be the shootiest army. We aren't meant to be. Even space marines have gulliman and Azreal to give that 6 inches radius bubble a 4++ save and reroll to hit and reroll to wound. Its just really tough to outshoot that. CSM shine in other areas, which are mainly psychic, and melee. I mean, space marines just don't have something like Khorne berserkers, or Daemon Princes. So, melee is where we shine. Since that is where we shine, I want to at least see if we can somehow work those into an effective list.

CSM are plenty shooty if you are slaanesh. Most things can't put out the number of shots we do at 24".

So far the Khorne success I have are a single unit of zerkers in a land raider moving them up the board taking out half an army with sorc/prince buffs behind them.

Most of the support are havocs, my dreads, and some termi and raptor drops. But this was pre-codex.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, I am actually open to a mixed sort of army with Khorne for melee and other elements for psychic and shooting. Just need to find that balance. There's something very satisfying about deleting entire units when you get into melee combat.

So, erm yeah. it doesn't have to be world eaters. It doesn't even have to be mass Khorne berserkers. It just has to have like maybe one or two units.

Besides, I feel that CSM will never be the shootiest army. We aren't meant to be. Even space marines have gulliman and Azreal to give that 6 inches radius bubble a 4++ save and reroll to hit and reroll to wound. Its just really tough to outshoot that. CSM shine in other areas, which are mainly psychic, and melee. I mean, space marines just don't have something like Khorne berserkers, or Daemon Princes. So, melee is where we shine. Since that is where we shine, I want to at least see if we can somehow work those into an effective list.

For point efficiency, try the kharybdis claw from forgeworld loaded down with 20. It's more expensive but also more useful than a rhino after it drops off its package. Running them as four sets of five guarantee at least some make the charge, particularly with the khorne icon.

You can also try one idea I'm toying with, which is a 20 strong unit in the claw being warptimed by a terminator sorcerer who also buffs them with the +1 to hit (really good vs imperium due to 5+ extra attacks). It's heretical and possibly overkill, but still a fun idea.

Or go with zerkers, plasma slaanesh terminators, abaddon, and the terminator sorcerer for the ultimate alpha strike. It's also a bit less than 1400 points but man it'd be funny to see.

I'm wondering about running a Khorne list with plenty of Berzerkers and Bloodletters supported by Be'lakor and either a Bloodthirster, Renegade Knight or Lord of Skulls. Be'lakor can throw Warptime on a unit of Berzerkers and then do a Smite on top of that, and he's no slouch in close combat himself. Maybe sprinkle in a few Flesh Hounds for some psychic denial as well, but not many as they just aren't as good as they used to be.

Something about Be'lakor just makes me think he's a good fit for a Khorne list that has CSM units as well as Daemons. His powers are useless with only Daemons, but his buff affects only Daemons, so his best use is in such a combined list. Plus his CC ability is good and fits in with the Khorne theme even if he himself is not a Daemon of Khorne.

I run Be'lakor often and he's not a close combat fighter. He's an assassin. He can murder characters or other monsters but he's not going to survive against anything that throws a ton of attacks his way. He's the universal answer for daemons to anything that might obstruct their winning goals but please don't stick him on the frontline and expect him to do well.

So after, what, 10 years now? It has been confirmed that Berzerkers can no longer be taken as troops in Khorne/WE detachments, apparently because Berzerkers are elite units in WE armies. Wth? This has got me so damn salty.

Gonna complain my ass off to GW that cult units are no longer troops in their own legions, I'll probably get the same stupid response though: "What's the problem? Just take them in a different detachment", thanks for penelising fluffy Legion players GW! This is especially stupid for TS players though who's legion doesn't actually have any CSM!

So damn salty.

 mrhappyface wrote:
So after, what, 10 years now? It has been confirmed that Berzerkers can no longer be taken as troops in Khorne/WE detachments, apparently because Berzerkers are elite units in WE armies. Wth? This has got me so damn salty.

Gonna complain my ass off to GW that cult units are no longer troops in their own legions, I'll probably get the same stupid response though: "What's the problem? Just take them in a different detachment", thanks for penelising fluffy Legion players GW! This is especially stupid for TS players though who's legion doesn't actually have any CSM!

So damn salty.

Where was this confirmed? Frontline Gaming said the exact opposite not long ago, and they usually have a pretty good handle on these things.

Re: zerkers delivery method, go for the storm eagle if you want to do Forge World. Not much more expensive than a kharybdis and WAY better offensive output.

Otherwise, we are alpha legion. It's not ideal, but it'll get better with more BLOS terrain, which really is necessary in today's game. Plus, if you go first....whoo baby! As a Tyranid player, I can tell you that that -1 to hit is just amazingly powerful. And if they want to get up close and personal to avoid that....

Speaking of alpha by the way, I'm sure this has already been mentioned but Changeling + Alpha legion oblits. Wow what a firebase at -2 to hit!

 luke1705 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
So after, what, 10 years now? It has been confirmed that Berzerkers can no longer be taken as troops in Khorne/WE detachments, apparently because Berzerkers are elite units in WE armies. Wth? This has got me so damn salty.

Gonna complain my ass off to GW that cult units are no longer troops in their own legions, I'll probably get the same stupid response though: "What's the problem? Just take them in a different detachment", thanks for penelising fluffy Legion players GW! This is especially stupid for TS players though who's legion doesn't actually have any CSM!

So damn salty.

Where was this confirmed? Frontline Gaming said the exact opposite not long ago, and they usually have a pretty good handle on these things.

Re: zerkers delivery method, go for the storm eagle if you want to do Forge World. Not much more expensive than a kharybdis and WAY better offensive output.

Otherwise, we are alpha legion. It's not ideal, but it'll get better with more BLOS terrain, which really is necessary in today's game. Plus, if you go first....whoo baby! As a Tyranid player, I can tell you that that -1 to hit is just amazingly powerful. And if they want to get up close and personal to avoid that....

Speaking of alpha by the way, I'm sure this has already been mentioned but Changeling + Alpha legion oblits. Wow what a firebase at -2 to hit!

It was confirmed by the guy who wrote the Codex on WarhammerTV, also I believe FLG said they made a mistake on that...

It really makes no difference to World Eaters if Berzerkers are Elites instead of Troops. I've found we don't need very high CP to be competitive and we certainly aren't going to make use of the "attack twice" stratagem since Zerkers are going to be our bread and butter unit regardless.

 andysonic1 wrote:
It really makes no difference to World Eaters if Berzerkers are Elites instead of Troops. I've found we don't need very high CP to be competitive and we certainly aren't going to make use of the "attack twice" stratagem since Zerkers are going to be our bread and butter unit regardless.

Your saying that now but when we get access to all those tasty strategems...

You can still use the index troop versions of noise marines/Berserkers there datasheets haven't been replaced only the elite generic versions have been. (You always use the most recent datasheet)

They aren't the same datasheets before you bring that up again, since the elite generic cult troops have different keywords and army role with the elite ones having <Legions> while being elites. while the troop ones have <Emperor's Children> and <World Eaters> while being troops.

The same applies to Death Guard and thousand sons if the generic elite profile replaces the troop one from the index, as soon as there own codex comes out there troop datasheet will replace the one from codex chaos space marines.

This doesn't sound bad until you realize that the troop datasheet will not have <Legions> but <Death Guard> and <Thousand sons> making those two cults illigal in all other legions.

Yeah the way they are doing datasheets is odd but I think the idea is

Most recent entry replaces index for any army that uses that unit unless said army has a codex specifically for them. I think. So CSM codex data sheets aren't replaced by codex DG or tsons datasheets.

The whole "the troop entry in the index was different" argument is odd and will likely need a faq to be sure.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
It really makes no difference to World Eaters if Berzerkers are Elites instead of Troops. I've found we don't need very high CP to be competitive and we certainly aren't going to make use of the "attack twice" stratagem since Zerkers are going to be our bread and butter unit regardless.

Your saying that now but when we get access to all those tasty strategems...

None of the stratagems force me to take Zerkers as troops in order to use them, plus I'll just take normal bois in Rhinos and cultists to fill out the bigger detachment to get CP if I find I need it.

And yeah I'm not going to bother worrying about if the index datasheet means World Eaters can be Troops because it's just splitting hairs. We don't need them as troops so I'm not going to start jumping through hoops to make them troops.