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You are making it more complicated than it needs to be, it is quite simple.

There are two datasheets for each cult marine let's call them troops and elites.

Codex chaos space marines has only replaced the elites version of the datasheet. (and the troop versions are different datasheets due to keywords being different)

By your logic space marines, Blood angels, Dark Angels and Space wolves have to use the rules for rhinos, razorbacks, dreadnoughts, stormravens, storm talons, Land raiders in codex Greyknights, because it is a identically named datasheet and is the most recent datasheet. So enjoy your vehicles your space marines can't ride in. (Different keywords makes them separate datasheets from those in codex space marines)

 mrhappyface wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
So after, what, 10 years now? It has been confirmed that Berzerkers can no longer be taken as troops in Khorne/WE detachments, apparently because Berzerkers are elite units in WE armies. Wth? This has got me so damn salty.

Gonna complain my ass off to GW that cult units are no longer troops in their own legions, I'll probably get the same stupid response though: "What's the problem? Just take them in a different detachment", thanks for penelising fluffy Legion players GW! This is especially stupid for TS players though who's legion doesn't actually have any CSM!

So damn salty.

Where was this confirmed? Frontline Gaming said the exact opposite not long ago, and they usually have a pretty good handle on these things.

Re: zerkers delivery method, go for the storm eagle if you want to do Forge World. Not much more expensive than a kharybdis and WAY better offensive output.

Otherwise, we are alpha legion. It's not ideal, but it'll get better with more BLOS terrain, which really is necessary in today's game. Plus, if you go first....whoo baby! As a Tyranid player, I can tell you that that -1 to hit is just amazingly powerful. And if they want to get up close and personal to avoid that....

Speaking of alpha by the way, I'm sure this has already been mentioned but Changeling + Alpha legion oblits. Wow what a firebase at -2 to hit!

It was confirmed by the guy who wrote the Codex on WarhammerTV, also I believe FLG said they made a mistake on that...

I knew it! They had to screw Chaos over somehow. So, not only can we not use Daemons as troops, since they don't get obsec for some reason. But you have to take them in a separate detachment anyway to keep you Legion traits. So you have to take three units either cultists or regular busted CSM. Emperor's Children really want as many CP as you can get, so I can't just run Vangaurd. Plus we're gonna need that obsec. I despise cultists so that's out. So, I guess its CSM being useless in my deployment zone. Yeah.

Having cult troops as elites is not the end of the world.

Sure, you are probably not going to take a battalion detachment, but 12 command points on an army with 6 Noise Marine squads would probably be broken.

 Sersi wrote:
I knew it! They had to screw Chaos over somehow. So, not only can we not use Daemons as troops, since they don't get obsec for some reason. But you have to take them in a separate detachment anyway to keep you Legion traits. So you have to take three units either cultists or regular busted CSM. Emperor's Children really want as many CP as you can get, so I can't just run Vangaurd. Plus we're gonna need that obsec. I despise cultists so that's out. So, I guess its CSM being useless in my deployment zone. Yeah.

I mean... this is nothing new... why are people surprised?

Daemons have been their own codex for a while. They've always been our allies, not our troops. So you can ally with them in other detachments.

They only exist in the codex as part of the Summoning rule. We're still playing Chaos Space MARINES, not the Grand Alliance of Chaos.

Still, I was excited for obj secured noise marines with their wonderful stat line, cost, and tactic. They'd be wonderful for locking down an objective

 techsoldaten wrote:
Having cult troops as elites is not the end of the world.

Sure, you are probably not going to take a battalion detachment, but 12 command points on an army with 6 Noise Marine squads would probably be broken.

How are you getting a battalion of noise marines in a reasonable sized game ?

SilverAlien wrote:
Still, I was excited for obj secured noise marines with their wonderful stat line, cost, and tactic. They'd be wonderful for locking down an objective

That's right! No more obsec on cult units! Now we have to take *shudders* cultists.

I haven't run a single cultist unit since 8th came out and was so happy. But now...

 mrhappyface wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Still, I was excited for obj secured noise marines with their wonderful stat line, cost, and tactic. They'd be wonderful for locking down an objective

That's right! No more obsec on cult units! Now we have to take *shudders* cultists.

I haven't run a single cultist unit since 8th came out and was so happy. But now...

Pre-Codex Cultists - 5 points, 40 man squads, meh

Codex Cultists - 4 points, 40 man squads, stratagem to come back from any table edge at full strength, objective secured, legion tactics

Cultists went from being silly to include to being amazing when taken in large blobs. Two 40 man Cultist units will not only prevent early game nonsense from hitting your important units but when they are nearly depleted you can just straight up bring them back behind your enemy while your main force hits them from the front. Cultists are amazingly tactical now.

Yes but many of us would prefer they not be our main troop choice. Plus plain CSM are never going to be good :(

 andysonic1 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Still, I was excited for obj secured noise marines with their wonderful stat line, cost, and tactic. They'd be wonderful for locking down an objective

That's right! No more obsec on cult units! Now we have to take *shudders* cultists.

I haven't run a single cultist unit since 8th came out and was so happy. But now...

Pre-Codex Cultists - 5 points, 40 man squads, meh

Codex Cultists - 4 points, 40 man squads, stratagem to come back from any table edge at full strength, objective secured, legion tactics

Cultists went from being silly to include to being amazing when taken in large blobs. Two 40 man Cultist units will not only prevent early game nonsense from hitting your important units but when they are nearly depleted you can just straight up bring them back behind your enemy while your main force hits them from the front. Cultists are amazingly tactical now.

Shall we just pretend that anyone wants to take Cultist models in their army (not for tactical reasons but for aesthetic reasons)?

OK so I have been looking at quad heavy bolter rapiers and they seem pretty fething gross actually.

A unit of 3 is 246 points total. Take it from a legion and give it MoS of course. If you cast prescience on them they average 30 hits a turn. Using endless cacaphony thats becomes 60 hits in one phase. To make things more nasty you can use Vets of the Long War as well and your either wounding vehicles on 4's or infantry on 2's.

For some odd reason they are range 48 to top it off. Each gun is t5 4w 3+save and you can't target the gunners unless they are closest.

This unit seems like a no brainer to me, I was trying to make my idiot contemptor efficient using marks and strategems and I kept passing over this entry like a moron lol.

I don't see how this unit isn't pretty much an auto take in any list, it's even 9 models in your backfield for objective purposes.

I mean my normal CSM squads have actually done okay in my games. They aren't my hammer but still 2 specials+combi and 10 power armor bodies isn't terrible. Rather have them as noise marines though.

I will give cultist another try. I have been using my orks as stand ins because I have no cultist models. I started playing with the 3.5 dex when they were an alpha legion thing and never really grabbed them. So far they are an okay tarpit and filler and that is it. Rather have marines though as well I am playing Chaos Space Marines.

WE cultists get three attacks on the charge.

Alpha Legion cultists get the -1 to hit.

Word Bearer cultists get ATSKNF which isn't as crappy for them

IW cultists can be made fearless with a character.

Renegade cultists get advance and charge.

Some good options if we are forced to take 3 units of 10 and thus a 120pt tax for a battalion. Still want to be able to take cult troops but having chaff is pretty crucial in 8th.

 Red Corsair wrote:
OK so I have been looking at quad heavy bolter rapiers and they seem pretty fething gross actually.

A unit of 3 is 246 points total. Take it from a legion and give it MoS of course. If you cast prescience on them they average 30 hits a turn. Using endless cacaphony thats becomes 60 hits in one phase. To make things more nasty you can use Vets of the Long War as well and your either wounding vehicles on 4's or infantry on 2's.

For some odd reason they are range 48 to top it off. Each gun is t5 4w 3+save and you can't target the gunners unless they are closest.

This unit seems like a no brainer to me, I was trying to make my idiot contemptor efficient using marks and strategems and I kept passing over this entry like a moron lol.

I don't see how this unit isn't pretty much an auto take in any list, it's even 9 models in your backfield for objective purposes.

I'm still a massive fan of Laser Destroyers: why yes that is a lovely painted StormRaven/Knight/Baneblade, now could you please remove it from the board?

Seriously! With strategems and powers you could have 6 shots hitting on 2s re-rolling, wounding on 2s, basically no armour save and then doing d6, 2d6 or even 3d6 damage per shot! Ouch! You're dropping two StormRavens per turn or an Imperial Knight or a Baneblade or about 3 Raazorback/Predator/Vindicator equivilents!

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
OK so I have been looking at quad heavy bolter rapiers and they seem pretty fething gross actually.

A unit of 3 is 246 points total. Take it from a legion and give it MoS of course. If you cast prescience on them they average 30 hits a turn. Using endless cacaphony thats becomes 60 hits in one phase. To make things more nasty you can use Vets of the Long War as well and your either wounding vehicles on 4's or infantry on 2's.

For some odd reason they are range 48 to top it off. Each gun is t5 4w 3+save and you can't target the gunners unless they are closest.

This unit seems like a no brainer to me, I was trying to make my idiot contemptor efficient using marks and strategems and I kept passing over this entry like a moron lol.

I don't see how this unit isn't pretty much an auto take in any list, it's even 9 models in your backfield for objective purposes.

I'm still a massive fan of Laser Destroyers: why yes that is a lovely painted StormRaven/Knight/Baneblade, now could you please remove it from the board?

Seriously! With strategems and powers you could have 6 shots hitting on 2s re-rolling, wounding on 2s, basically no armour save and then doing d6, 2d6 or even 3d6 damage per shot! Ouch! You're dropping two StormRavens per turn or an Imperial Knight or a Baneblade or about 3 Raazorback/Predator/Vindicator equivilents!

WAY more expensive and terrible vs single wound targets though. Not knocking it, but the quad heavy bolters literally boost any style list I can think of for very cheap.

 Red Corsair wrote:
WAY more expensive and terrible vs single wound targets though. Not knocking it, but the quad heavy bolters literally boost any style list I can think of for very cheap.

Perhaps, though I still love the idea of blowing 2x 300pt models out of the sky or destroying half of a parking lot list before your opponant has a chance to think and, depending on your list, you might already have a lot of units that can tear through infantry like there's no tomorrow but not much of an answer to monsters and vehicles than hope weight of fire is enough.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Still, I was excited for obj secured noise marines with their wonderful stat line, cost, and tactic. They'd be wonderful for locking down an objective

That's right! No more obsec on cult units! Now we have to take *shudders* cultists.

I haven't run a single cultist unit since 8th came out and was so happy. But now...

Pre-Codex Cultists - 5 points, 40 man squads, meh

Codex Cultists - 4 points, 40 man squads, stratagem to come back from any table edge at full strength, objective secured, legion tactics

Cultists went from being silly to include to being amazing when taken in large blobs. Two 40 man Cultist units will not only prevent early game nonsense from hitting your important units but when they are nearly depleted you can just straight up bring them back behind your enemy while your main force hits them from the front. Cultists are amazingly tactical now.

Sure cultists are good now sure but the aren't thematic for all legions. EC for instance do not take groupies we snort them! EC legion trait does nothing for them with their mighty one attack. 4 pts? For 3 pts more I can flood the board with Daemonettes. I'm glad this works for other players but not everyone wants to take cultists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arkaine wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
I knew it! They had to screw Chaos over somehow. So, not only can we not use Daemons as troops, since they don't get obsec for some reason. But you have to take them in a separate detachment anyway to keep you Legion traits. So you have to take three units either cultists or regular busted CSM. Emperor's Children really want as many CP as you can get, so I can't just run Vangaurd. Plus we're gonna need that obsec. I despise cultists so that's out. So, I guess its CSM being useless in my deployment zone. Yeah.

I mean... this is nothing new... why are people surprised?

Daemons have been their own codex for a while. They've always been our allies, not our troops. So you can ally with them in other detachments.

They only exist in the codex as part of the Summoning rule. We're still playing Chaos Space MARINES, not the Grand Alliance of Chaos.

That's not what I meant. Some are saying that even in a Chaos Daemon detachment daemons don't get obsec because of the way GW worded factions.

I have hundreds of cultists I just never use them because I normally am playing chaos space marines when I can't be arsed moving hordes of units.

I play Thousand Sons specifically because I don't want to run hordes. Cultists do not appeal to me.

The cult units are amazing as they are. Wanting them to be troops too is asking for the moon on a stick.

MaxT wrote:
The cult units are amazing as they are. Wanting them to be troops too is asking for the moon on a stick.

Hardly since they were already troops in the index and previous codeces.

MaxT wrote:
The cult units are amazing as they are. Wanting them to be troops too is asking for the moon on a stick.

Is it though? They've been troops since the start of the 8th, and I've never seen anyone call it OP. But whatever it is what its is.

 Red Corsair wrote:
OK so I have been looking at quad heavy bolter rapiers and they seem pretty fething gross actually.

A unit of 3 is 246 points total. Take it from a legion and give it MoS of course. If you cast prescience on them they average 30 hits a turn. Using endless cacaphony thats becomes 60 hits in one phase. To make things more nasty you can use Vets of the Long War as well and your either wounding vehicles on 4's or infantry on 2's.

For some odd reason they are range 48 to top it off. Each gun is t5 4w 3+save and you can't target the gunners unless they are closest.

This unit seems like a no brainer to me, I was trying to make my idiot contemptor efficient using marks and strategems and I kept passing over this entry like a moron lol.

I don't see how this unit isn't pretty much an auto take in any list, it's even 9 models in your backfield for objective purposes.

Rapiers are great, but sadly, I don't think they will work the way you lay out with endless cacophony and Votlw. Once you set them up, each rapier and crew becomes a separate unit. Can only put endless cacophony and Votlw on one unit. Also, the rapiers themselves do not have the infantry keyword, so cannot benefit.

Touching on the Be'lakor discussion from before, he does have one other big advantage going for him....if you're inclined to summon units (and with the decreased point cost of our Troop demons, I think Bloodletters should be appealing), Be'lakor is an excellent guy to do it with. Since he is unmarked by any particular god, he can summon any kind of daemon unit. And unlike say a Malefic Lord or other summon-battery, Be'lakor is quite fast. His movement plus Warp Time can put him in great position turn 1, to be able to summon next turn. Alternately, owing to Warp Time, he is less penalized than other characters because he can summon and then cast and still get one normal movement in on the turn.

Very nice, flexible character. Definitely worth paying a little extra on top of the normal DP costs to include him, in my opinion.

I'm at at work so can't check my index, but does Be'lakor have the <Legion> keyword? It not, I don't know it's worth taking him in a separate detachment.

Whats everyones thoughts on Abaddon, is he worth it, does he justify having to deal with the black legion?

MaxT wrote:
The cult units are amazing as they are. Wanting them to be troops too is asking for the moon on a stick.

I've never seen anyone use any other cult troops as elites, they only time they are ever used is when they where available as troops simply because there not good enough.

If i'm forced to take an inferior detachment which gives less command points and denies be objective secured feth taking noise marines i'm taking terminators, possessed, Havocs or chosen so I can give every member of the squad a special/heavy weapon and watch them wreck things.

Also did you guys know that Emperor's Children and World Eaters are supposedly not locked to mark of slaanesh and Khorne respectively according to someone on B&C you can literally take any mark they forgot to put that restriction in the codex :/

What happened to our good old Juggerlord with axe of biting fury? No one fields him anymore?

The axe gives +3 Str, ap -3 and he is str 5. So, that makes his attacks Str 8. He has 4 attacks base. If he is WE, then butcher's nails gives him one more attack on the charge. The Juggernaut itself gives 3 additional attacks at str 7, ap -1

So, he gets 5 Str 8, Ap -3 attacks and 3 Str 7 AP -1 attacks. And we haven't considered world lord traits yet. We can make him Exalted champion to gives yet one more attack. So, now he has 6 attacks on the charge plus the 3 juggernaut attacks. lol Sounds like a ton of attacks. Plus, this is just with axe of biting fury. You can give him a normal or plasma pistol too. Then use demon shot strategem to do d3 mortal wounds before he charges in.

Juggerlord isn't infantry, bike, or a hellbrute so he unfortunately doesn't get butcher's nails for the +1 attack, the axe of blind fury also prevents him from re-rolling his misses which is quite bad.

 Rydria wrote:
Juggerlord isn't infantry, bike, or a hellbrute so he unfortunately doesn't get butcher's nails for the +1 attack, the axe of blind fury also prevents him from re-rolling his misses which is quite bad.

zzzz... didn't think of that, less 1 attack... Oh well. with warlord trait exalted champion, he still gets 1 more attack. And he gets the 3 Juggernaut attacks too. He is still very fierce on the charge.

Actually, in that case, might as well field him as another legion's warlord. lol Black legion, alpha legion, night lords can all have marked characters right? Its just that he won't be as fluffy ecept maybe in a black legion army as the warlord because black legion can have just about anything.