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 Rydria wrote:
Also the codex writer has made some huge errors emperor's children and world eaters are no longer cult legions rules wise you can have rubics marines/plague marines in both legions and you aren't restricted by what marks you can take you can have mark of slaanesh world eaters or khornite emperor's children which makes no sense.

That is not true... please read codex page 116 where it states under Marks of Chaos... "You do not have to choose a Mark of Chaos for a unit if you do not want to; if you do not, it is assumed that the unit is not dedicated to a specific Dark God. The exceptions are units from World Eaters or Emperor's Children Legions: all World Eaters units must have the Khorne keyword if they are able to do so, and all Emperor's Children units must have the Slaanesh keyword if they are able to do so."

I'm sure some basket case rules lawyer will try to take enough drugs until his understand of these statements means something completely different from what's being said, but the gyst of it is that World Eaters and Emperor's Children are already covered as being Khorne/Slaanesh only under the Mark rules while DG and TS are getting their own codex to say all that stuff. GW sucks at writing rules which is why some Chaos legions are being denied stratagems while some fools are trying to taking Noise Marines as World Eaters.

But remember the golden rule: This rulebook weighs a hefty amount. I will beat you over the head with it until you get smarter.


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 TheWaspinator wrote:
Am I reading it right that despite being in the CSM codex, the demon infantry disqualify a detachment for Legion traits?

That's kind of been the case for ages. Daemons are allies, not troops. They belong in their own detachment. You can take them as part of the Chaos faction but lose benefits.

The only reason they list them at all is for summoning purposes.

So which option(s) for Havocs is the most efficient/best in the new codex?

Msolve wrote:
So which option(s) for Havoks is the most efficient/best in the new codex?

Still Missile Launchers. They have selectable ammo. Krak for tanks, Frag for hordes. Can't beat that unless you feel like specializing each squad.

I now have my hands on the codex and can't find anyway to make Berzerkers troops. Anyone else with the codex find something different?

It's not there. :(

They are no longer troops, and I believe this has been confirmed by GW to be intentional.

But, I guess it makes sense. Troops are taken for ObSec and command points as you need them for Battalions, and that type of strategic planning doesn't seem too Berzerker-y to me. Run them as a Vanguard detachment or use Cultists or Bloodletters as troops.

Speaking of Berzerkers, can they (and any other unit for that matter) move in the turn after using the Alpha Legion Forward Operatives?

Had my first game today of 40k with the new codex against an Imperial Fists player. All I really took away from that game was that Primaris marines are crap: I destroyed a unit of Hellblasters and a banner man turn 1 with Terminator deep strike just using their combi-plasma. His Lysander model managed to kill my Terminator lord but then what was left of my Terminator squad (a Champion and 1 Termie) Charged in and wrecked him with Power Fists: 7 attacks from two Termies at S8? Nasty.

Not really marking that game down as a real test of the new codex rules because I'm pretty sure I'd have whiped the floor with him even without the new tactics and strategems. (Side note: the guy I played against was the only one available to play this morning and only had his pretty mediocre IF list with him whilst I had brought a more powerful WE list. Though I really wanted to take it for a spin, I didn't use my Fire Raptor against him once I saw the list he had, not because I was tailering but because the FR would have one Flyer armied his army.)


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GrafWattenburg wrote:
Speaking of Berzerkers, can they (and any other unit for that matter) move in the turn after using the Alpha Legion Forward Operatives?

Why wouldn't they be able to? That strategem happens before turn 1.

That's what I thought, cheers

So my FLGS opens in a few hours, and it seems from the scuttlebutt here that there is no real reason to take <WORLD EATERS> as my legion outside of overkill. So would I be better off taking night lords or renegade as I despite alpha legion.

Just keep in mind you lose veterans of the long war if you take renegades as your legion trait which is one of the top 2 strategems in the book. It is the trade off fot such a powerful legion trait.

StarHunter25 wrote:
So my FLGS opens in a few hours, and it seems from the scuttlebutt here that there is no real reason to take <WORLD EATERS> as my legion outside of overkill. So would I be better off taking night lords or renegade as I despite alpha legion.

WE Legion tactic is still good for Terminators, Characters, Cultists and Berzerker units that have been heavily damaged. In the game this morning, my Zerker champions managed to whipe out half of my opponants army on their own with 8 attacks each hitting on 4s (producing extra attacks on 6s), re-rolling 1s, wounding on 2s, re-rolling, and basically ignoring armour. A single 5 man Zerker unit with strategems, legion tactics and aura support could take on almost anything (do almost 18 damage to a Knight on the charge with buffs).

I didn't think dudes with PF could generate DTtFE attacks. What with them generating on 6+ and fists give -1 to hit.

StarHunter25 wrote:
I didn't think dudes with PF could generate DTtFE attacks. What with them generating on 6+ and fists give -1 to hit.

Damn, you're right on that one. I'll have to remember that for my next game (wouldn't really have affected the game though since my normal Zerkers who didn't even get to attack would have cleaned up anything that was left).


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I'd also like to point out that, if DeathGuard Terminators get access to the cc weapons that Plague Marines get.... Jeezus.

Instead of Power Axes take Flails of corruption which get d3 attacks per attack (so 2d3 attacks per termie and 3d3 on the champion for an average of 22 attacks for a 5 man squad!), they are S6 AP-2 D2 and damage spills over! That's gonna hurt!

And swap out Power fists/Chain fists for Great plague cleavers which do the same thing but have Dd6 instead of d3 and re-roll 1s to wound.

Of course this is just "what if's" but I don't see why DG termies wouldn't get access to these weapons.

GrafWattenburg wrote:
Speaking of Berzerkers, can they (and any other unit for that matter) move in the turn after using the Alpha Legion Forward Operatives?

Why wouldn't they be able to? That strategem happens before turn 1.

Incorrect, it happens before you get your individual turn but it still occurs in the first battle round - so still follows the rules for "Reinforcements" (e.g., Deep Strike). The ordering of having it happen in the first battle round but before first turn is intentional, in that it can backfire if your opponent gets first turn.

GhostRecon wrote:

GrafWattenburg wrote:
Speaking of Berzerkers, can they (and any other unit for that matter) move in the turn after using the Alpha Legion Forward Operatives?

Why wouldn't they be able to? That strategem happens before turn 1.

Incorrect, it happens before you get your individual turn but it still occurs in the first battle round - so still follows the rules for "Reinforcements" (e.g., Deep Strike). The ordering of having it happen in the first battle round but before first turn is intentional, in that it can backfire if your opponent gets first turn.

Ugh, I'm just gonna stop confirming/debunking rules today; I've already screwed up twice.

I'll go eat some cake and come back tomorrow.

 mrhappyface wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:

GrafWattenburg wrote:
Speaking of Berzerkers, can they (and any other unit for that matter) move in the turn after using the Alpha Legion Forward Operatives?

Why wouldn't they be able to? That strategem happens before turn 1.

Incorrect, it happens before you get your individual turn but it still occurs in the first battle round - so still follows the rules for "Reinforcements" (e.g., Deep Strike). The ordering of having it happen in the first battle round but before first turn is intentional, in that it can backfire if your opponent gets first turn.

Ugh, I'm just gonna stop confirming/debunking rules today; I've already screwed up twice.

I'll go eat some cake and come back tomorrow.

No big deal; you just seem excited with the new Codex in hand.

I heard that Leviathans have gained the Helbrute keyword, gaining the benefits of Legion traits. That's the first thing I might be wrong on.

However the wording of Fire Frenzy stratagem, combined with it not using the bold to indicate it's a keyword, I believe the Leviathan cannot have it used on it, correct?

 mrhappyface wrote:
I now have my hands on the codex and can't find anyway to make Berzerkers troops. Anyone else with the codex find something different?

There have been no changes made to the World Eater book from the index which grants the right as an army special rule. This will no doubt transfer to each of the legion codex releases and the only reasons WE and EC are mentioned at all in the CSM codex is to get access to their stratagems and legion traits/weapons EARLY since they won't be seeing a codex for quite some time. However, information regarding permissible legion or mark keywords does not replace army instructions for a separate faction in the index. You can still treat World Eaters as its own faction, with its own Index section, just as you can do so for Dark Angels etc despite them not having a codex. If you do, you can only take World Eaters units and must follow the World Eaters army rules -- WHICH GRANT BERZERKERS AS TROOPS EXPLICITLY ACCORDING TO THE 'BERZERKER HORDE' RULE! -- and since the Forces of the World Eaters rule specificies that pages 16 to 42 of the Heretic Astartes datasheets can be World Eaters, exactly as Dark Angels and other SM chapters do it, then you can choose those units as World Eaters faction units. Likewise, the new codex provides even more options for the World Eaters to choose from, such as legion traits, stratagems, relics, and updated datasheets. NONE of this replaces World Eaters as its own faction or the RULES present in the Index for treating it as such.

GrafWattenburg wrote:
They are no longer troops, and I believe this has been confirmed by GW to be intentional.

But, I guess it makes sense. Troops are taken for ObSec and command points as you need them for Battalions, and that type of strategic planning doesn't seem too Berzerker-y to me. Run them as a Vanguard detachment or use Cultists or Bloodletters as troops.

Speaking of Berzerkers, can they (and any other unit for that matter) move in the turn after using the Alpha Legion Forward Operatives?

It has not been confirmed, people are spreading a misinterpreted comment as confirmation that they will never be troops. It was merely referring to that codex, as in the past people could make them troops by taking marked lords. The ObSec thing doesn't matter because as you can see in Thousand Sons and Death Guard, Chaos Space Marines are NOT valid choices for troops. All Thousand Sons non-sorcerer marines are RUBRICS! Everything human in Nurgle's army is a PLAGUE MARINE! To claim that they are no longer troops would be a massive nerf to cult legions who are now forced to take Cultists in their lists or the new Not-Cultists.

Anyone see any ways of improving survivability or AL bezerkers infiltrating up close if you don't get first turn?

GhostRecon wrote:

GrafWattenburg wrote:
Speaking of Berzerkers, can they (and any other unit for that matter) move in the turn after using the Alpha Legion Forward Operatives?

Why wouldn't they be able to? That strategem happens before turn 1.

Incorrect, it happens before you get your individual turn but it still occurs in the first battle round - so still follows the rules for "Reinforcements" (e.g., Deep Strike). The ordering of having it happen in the first battle round but before first turn is intentional, in that it can backfire if your opponent gets first turn.

Actually, I disagree here. mrhappyface was correct on his version.

The Reinforcements rule (pg177) specifies that this only applies to units that arrive "mid-turn", giving the example of the movement phase but possible during other phases. The penalty it gives is also very explicit in its restriction.

"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive"

Except the Forward Operatives stratagem (pg 160 CSM Codex) specifically states that they arrive during the first battle ROUND and this occurs BEFORE the first turn begins. Since it occurs before the first turn, the penalty to not move further during that turn cannot possibly take place. GW has made an explicit distinction this edition between Rounds and Turns and the stratagem makes it explicit that this happens outside the turn structure. Therefore, Berzerkers setup using Forward Operatives can DEFINITELY still move or advance on their first turn, regardless of who goes first.

This rule is almost identical to the similar Infiltration or Scouting rules that have always permitted movement on the turns they arrived because they do not count as Deep Strike or arriving from reserves. They have always been on the battlefield and are now choosing expose their location.


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Captyn_Bob wrote:
Anyone see any ways of improving survivability or AL bezerkers infiltrating up close if you don't get first turn?

Hide behind a tree.

 Arkaine wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
I now have my hands on the codex and can't find anyway to make Berzerkers troops. Anyone else with the codex find something different?

There have been no changes made to the World Eater book from the index which grants the right as an army special rule. This will no doubt transfer to each of the legion codex releases and the only reasons WE and EC are mentioned at all in the CSM codex is to get access to their stratagems and legion traits/weapons EARLY since they won't be seeing a codex for quite some time. However, information regarding permissible legion or mark keywords does not replace army instructions for a separate faction in the index. You can still treat World Eaters as its own faction, with its own Index section, just as you can do so for Dark Angels etc despite them not having a codex. If you do, you can only take World Eaters units and must follow the World Eaters army rules -- WHICH GRANT BERZERKERS AS TROOPS EXPLICITLY ACCORDING TO THE 'BERZERKER HORDE' RULE! -- and since the Forces of the World Eaters rule specificies that pages 16 to 42 of the Heretic Astartes datasheets can be World Eaters, exactly as Dark Angels and other SM chapters do it, then you can choose those units as World Eaters faction units. Likewise, the new codex provides even more options for the World Eaters to choose from, such as legion traits, stratagems, relics, and updated datasheets. NONE of this replaces World Eaters as its own faction or the RULES present in the Index for treating it as such.

GrafWattenburg wrote:
They are no longer troops, and I believe this has been confirmed by GW to be intentional.

But, I guess it makes sense. Troops are taken for ObSec and command points as you need them for Battalions, and that type of strategic planning doesn't seem too Berzerker-y to me. Run them as a Vanguard detachment or use Cultists or Bloodletters as troops.

Speaking of Berzerkers, can they (and any other unit for that matter) move in the turn after using the Alpha Legion Forward Operatives?

It has not been confirmed, people are spreading a misinterpreted comment as confirmation that they will never be troops. It was merely referring to that codex, as in the past people could make them troops by taking marked lords. The ObSec thing doesn't matter because as you can see in Thousand Sons and Death Guard, Chaos Space Marines are NOT valid choices for troops. All Thousand Sons non-sorcerer marines are RUBRICS! Everything human in Nurgle's army is a PLAGUE MARINE! To claim that they are no longer troops would be a massive nerf to cult legions who are now forced to take Cultists in their lists or the new Not-Cultists.

Except that the SM Codex explicitly states that Dark Angels are different and will get their own Codex, just like this CSM one explicitly states Death Guard and Thousand Sons are getting their own - but make no exception for World Eaters and even outline them in the Codex: CSM section for making your force battle-forged... which has no stipulation or allowance (in Codex: CSM) to make Berzerkers Troops... so until GW FAQs/Erratas them or releases a separate Codex for WE it looks like the Codex: CSM version overwrites/takes precedence.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Anyone see any ways of improving survivability or AL bezerkers infiltrating up close if you don't get first turn?

20 man Zerker unit, stick them in cover over 12" from the enemy for -1 to hit and 2+ armour save. Then drop down a Sorcerer first turn and use Warptime on them.

Other than that, they seem like a pretty good distraction for your opponant.

GhostRecon wrote:
Except that the SM Codex explicitly states that Dark Angels are different and will get their own Codex, just like this CSM one explicitly states Death Guard and Thousand Sons are getting their own - but make no exception for World Eaters and even outline them in the Codex: CSM section for making your force battle-forged... which has no stipulation or allowance (in Codex: CSM) to make Berzerkers Troops... so until GW FAQs/Erratas them or releases a separate Codex for WE it looks like the Codex: CSM version overwrites/takes precedence.

And for that you would have to provide the page number where World Eaters army rules are provided. Hint: they aren't. They have not been replaced at all, they've been supplemented. The issue here is that people are failing consistently to understand what overwrites what. DATASHEETS are what are overwritten, POINT COSTS are overwritten, NOT army rules that grant these permissions. Again, there is NOTHING in the Codex stating that World Eaters as a faction must adhere to X rules. There is literally only a section in the Legion and Mark keyword entries describing who may take these words along with the permission to use the contents of the book's stratagems, psychic powers, legion traits, warlord traits, and relics for the specified Legions in question. That line about Dark Angels or Thousand Sons being different? That applies to whether or not they are PERMITTED to use the powers, stratagems, traits, and relics within.

Context is everything and so many people are failing to account for that, such as with the horrendously exaggerated claim that a GW guy confirmed on stream that Troops are gone. That's not at all what was said. A guy from Google was recently fired and the news is making it sound like it was because he made a sexist memo. Actually reading the memo shows this is not the case and was not at all his perspective.

 Arkaine wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:

GrafWattenburg wrote:
Speaking of Berzerkers, can they (and any other unit for that matter) move in the turn after using the Alpha Legion Forward Operatives?

Why wouldn't they be able to? That strategem happens before turn 1.

Incorrect, it happens before you get your individual turn but it still occurs in the first battle round - so still follows the rules for "Reinforcements" (e.g., Deep Strike). The ordering of having it happen in the first battle round but before first turn is intentional, in that it can backfire if your opponent gets first turn.

Actually, I disagree here. mrhappyface was correct on his version.

The Reinforcements rule (pg177) specifies that this only applies to units that arrive "mid-turn", giving the example of the movement phase but possible during other phases. The penalty it gives is also very explicit in its restriction.

"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive"

Except the Forward Operatives stratagem (pg 160 CSM Codex) specifically states that they arrive during the first battle ROUND and this occurs BEFORE the first turn begins. Since it occurs before the first turn, the penalty to not move further during that turn cannot possibly take place. GW has made an explicit distinction this edition between Rounds and Turns and the stratagem makes it explicit that this happens outside the turn structure. Therefore, Berzerkers setup using Forward Operatives can DEFINITELY still move or advance on their first turn, regardless of who goes first.

This rule is almost identical to the similar Infiltration or Scouting rules that have always permitted movement on the turns they arrived because they do not count as Deep Strike or arriving from reserves. They have always been on the battlefield and are now choosing expose their location

Except that Infiltration, such as SM Scouts' 'Concealed Positions' rule, occurs during deployment:

‘Concealed Positions: When you set up this unit during deployment, it can be set up anywhere on the battle eld that is more than 9" from the enemy deployment zone and any enemy models.’

And Vanguard/Scouting movements occur based on movement and don't allow a unit to arrive anywhere on the board - they have to already be deployed to benefit from the rule, such as Darkstrider's 'Vanguard' rule or AM's Scout Sentinels' 'Scout Vehicle' rule. They allow an out-of-sequence move but don't have a BRB rule that outlines any additional restrictions to their situation.

GhostRecon wrote:
Except that Infiltration, such as SM Scouts' 'Concealed Positions' rule, occurs during deployment:

‘Concealed Positions: When you set up this unit during deployment, it can be set up anywhere on the battle eld that is more than 9" from the enemy deployment zone and any enemy models.’

And Vanguard/Scouting movements occur based on movement and don't allow a unit to arrive anywhere on the board - they have to already be deployed to benefit from the rule, such as Darkstrider's 'Vanguard' rule or AM's Scout Sentinels' 'Scout Vehicle' rule. They allow an out-of-sequence move but don't have a BRB rule that outlines any additional restrictions to their situation.

If you're going to quote a rule that says they occur during deployment then you might also want to point our what relevance that carries. Deployment occurs before the first turn and does not impact your ability to move because the Reinforcements rule has nothing to do with deployment. Read it and cite where you think differently.

The Forward Operatives stratagem likewise states "Use this stratagem when you can set up an Alpha Legion Infantry during deployment. You can set up the unit in concealment instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, the unit emerges from its hiding place - set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models". It not only is a function of the deployment but triggers BEFORE the first turn and cannot suffer the Reinforcements penalty that forbids movement on that turn. A round is not a turn.

As they were dropped onto the table out-of-sequence from the turn structure and there is no BRB rule that outlines any additional restrictions to that situation, they are still permitted to move on their NEXT turn. Which happens to be the 1st turn.

 Arkaine wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:
Except that Infiltration, such as SM Scouts' 'Concealed Positions' rule, occurs during deployment:

‘Concealed Positions: When you set up this unit during deployment, it can be set up anywhere on the battle eld that is more than 9" from the enemy deployment zone and any enemy models.’

And Vanguard/Scouting movements occur based on movement and don't allow a unit to arrive anywhere on the board - they have to already be deployed to benefit from the rule, such as Darkstrider's 'Vanguard' rule or AM's Scout Sentinels' 'Scout Vehicle' rule. They allow an out-of-sequence move but don't have a BRB rule that outlines any additional restrictions to their situation.

If you're going to quote a rule that says they occur during deployment then you might also want to point our what relevance that carries. Deployment occurs before the first turn and does not impact your ability to move because the Reinforcements rule has nothing to do with deployment. Read it and cite where you think differently.

The Forward Operatives stratagem likewise states "Use this stratagem when you can set up an Alpha Legion Infantry during deployment. You can set up the unit in concealment instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, the unit emerges from its hiding place - set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models". It not only is a function of the deployment but triggers BEFORE the first turn and cannot suffer the Reinforcements penalty that forbids movement on that turn. A round is not a turn.

As they were dropped onto the table out-of-sequence from the turn structure and there is no BRB rule that outlines any additional restrictions to that situation, they are still permitted to move on their NEXT turn. Which happens to be the 1st turn.

Difficulties of working from a tablet means it's hard to copy-paste all the relevant rules sections. And I was quoting the Scouts section to highlight how the rule's premise doesn't apply or provide any precedent that benefits the AL/RG stratagem - it specifically mentions Scouts forward deploy during deployment, so the 'Reinforcements' rule wouldn't apply.

GhostRecon wrote:

Incorrect, it happens before you get your individual turn but it still occurs in the first battle round - so still follows the rules for "Reinforcements" (e.g., Deep Strike). The ordering of having it happen in the first battle round but before first turn is intentional, in that it can backfire if your opponent gets first turn.

No it says "Before the first battle round begins" which means prior to either persons turn. You can act normally your first round.

Regardless, made a thread so we don't highjack legitimate tactics discussion: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/736031.page#9547862

Even if RAW did mean that World eaters could take Berserkers as troops (which it doesn't, we have new rules for WE) then it wouldn't matter since GW have clearly stated they don't intend that it will be FAQ'ed

Honestly it's not like it's a world eaters crushing nerf, this CSM codex is very strong

On the thousand sons. Bring Rubrics as troops I found this in the SM Codex FAQ.

"If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?

You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released. Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online."

I think this applies to the CSM factions as well.