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I think it prefers blood to brains.

1 of each it is! Thanks for all the info everyone


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One more thing, is the impaler any good on the BS?

I'd take the impaler, as it's situationally more useful than 1 extra attack. It's got enough to ruin pretty much anything it touches anyway, but being able to shoot a krak missile and get some extra charge range is nice for no extra points.

I will say from my own experience with slaughterers is that they are absolute fire magnets, partly because they're so fast. Even supported with my crunchy walker heavy army, they've died in almost all my games pretty early (still get a charge or two in). They're right at the front, and 10w isn't quite enough to soak up all that fire.

Quick question; Is the 'Flames of Spite'-Warlord-Trait affected by the Veteran of the Long War Stratagem? I.e. on a 5+ instead of a 6+ it's a mortal wound?

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
Quick question; Is the 'Flames of Spite'-Warlord-Trait affected by the Veteran of the Long War Stratagem? I.e. on a 5+ instead of a 6+ it's a mortal wound?

Yep, 'this happens on a roll of n' comes into play after modifiers. So with VOTLW it activates on a 5+.

 lindsay40k wrote:

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
Quick question; Is the 'Flames of Spite'-Warlord-Trait affected by the Veteran of the Long War Stratagem? I.e. on a 5+ instead of a 6+ it's a mortal wound?

Yep, 'this happens on a roll of n' comes into play after modifiers. So with VOTLW it activates on a 5+.

So, add the Murdersword to a Lord and, if he hits he causes a MW & 5+ to wound also causes a MW.. hm

Alpha Legion Tzeentch Possessed with The Changeling seem really solid. I just had them shut down a Guilliman list by deploying 12.1" away (to dodge Auspex Scan and guarantee heavy weapons hitting at -2 if I go second) and then locking everything in combat. He fell back on his turn but then his heavy weapons were shooting at -2 to everything and -3 to things past 12" or the Possessed. If you're already daisy-chaining back to The Changeling (this is easy because you have 20 models in the unit), it makes sense to bring along a Champion to re-roll wounds and maybe an Apostle.

Cultists were also really solid. Same idea -- 40 of them deploy in the enemy's face, daisy-chained back to the Champion. This is only 160 points, but they're a massive tar pit that threaten to put out a huge number of re-rolled attacks in CC.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Alpha Legion Tzeentch Possessed with The Changeling seem really solid. I just had them shut down a Guilliman list by deploying 12.1" away (to dodge Auspex Scan and guarantee heavy weapons hitting at -2 if I go second) and then locking everything in combat. He fell back on his turn but then his heavy weapons were shooting at -2 to everything and -3 to things past 12" or the Possessed. If you're already daisy-chaining back to The Changeling (this is easy because you have 20 models in the unit), it makes sense to bring along a Champion to re-roll wounds and maybe an Apostle.

Cultists were also really solid. Same idea -- 40 of them deploy in the enemy's face, daisy-chained back to the Champion. This is only 160 points, but they're a massive tar pit that threaten to put out a huge number of re-rolled attacks in CC.

I love your filthy heretic mind.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Alpha Legion Tzeentch Possessed with The Changeling seem really solid. I just had them shut down a Guilliman list by deploying 12.1" away (to dodge Auspex Scan and guarantee heavy weapons hitting at -2 if I go second) and then locking everything in combat. He fell back on his turn but then his heavy weapons were shooting at -2 to everything and -3 to things past 12" or the Possessed. If you're already daisy-chaining back to The Changeling (this is easy because you have 20 models in the unit), it makes sense to bring along a Champion to re-roll wounds and maybe an Apostle.

Cultists were also really solid. Same idea -- 40 of them deploy in the enemy's face, daisy-chained back to the Champion. This is only 160 points, but they're a massive tar pit that threaten to put out a huge number of re-rolled attacks in CC.

I was thinking about running 2 AL Helbrutes with Missle Launcher/Reaper Auto Cannon they are only 112 points. Main purpose being to thin out horde units with Frag missles and finish off transports.

Edit: points correction.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Alpha Legion Tzeentch Possessed with The Changeling seem really solid. I just had them shut down a Guilliman list by deploying 12.1" away (to dodge Auspex Scan and guarantee heavy weapons hitting at -2 if I go second) and then locking everything in combat. He fell back on his turn but then his heavy weapons were shooting at -2 to everything and -3 to things past 12" or the Possessed. If you're already daisy-chaining back to The Changeling (this is easy because you have 20 models in the unit), it makes sense to bring along a Champion to re-roll wounds and maybe an Apostle.

Cultists were also really solid. Same idea -- 40 of them deploy in the enemy's face, daisy-chained back to the Champion. This is only 160 points, but they're a massive tar pit that threaten to put out a huge number of re-rolled attacks in CC.

I was thinking about running 2 AL Helbrutes with Missle Launcher/Reaper Auto Cannon they are only 112 points.

Edit: points correction.

Nice, I was thinking about Oblits - more stuff with that juicy -2 to be hit.

Sounds like a pretty brutal rushdown, @Dionysodorous!

Dionysodorus wrote:
Alpha Legion Tzeentch Possessed with The Changeling seem really solid. I just had them shut down a Guilliman list by deploying 12.1" away (to dodge Auspex Scan and guarantee heavy weapons hitting at -2 if I go second) and then locking everything in combat. He fell back on his turn but then his heavy weapons were shooting at -2 to everything and -3 to things past 12" or the Possessed. If you're already daisy-chaining back to The Changeling (this is easy because you have 20 models in the unit), it makes sense to bring along a Champion to re-roll wounds and maybe an Apostle.

Cultists were also really solid. Same idea -- 40 of them deploy in the enemy's face, daisy-chained back to the Champion. This is only 160 points, but they're a massive tar pit that threaten to put out a huge number of re-rolled attacks in CC.

how'd you get the changeling in there with them, summoning from the apostle?

 Latro_ wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Alpha Legion Tzeentch Possessed with The Changeling seem really solid. I just had them shut down a Guilliman list by deploying 12.1" away (to dodge Auspex Scan and guarantee heavy weapons hitting at -2 if I go second) and then locking everything in combat. He fell back on his turn but then his heavy weapons were shooting at -2 to everything and -3 to things past 12" or the Possessed. If you're already daisy-chaining back to The Changeling (this is easy because you have 20 models in the unit), it makes sense to bring along a Champion to re-roll wounds and maybe an Apostle.

Cultists were also really solid. Same idea -- 40 of them deploy in the enemy's face, daisy-chained back to the Champion. This is only 160 points, but they're a massive tar pit that threaten to put out a huge number of re-rolled attacks in CC.

how'd you get the changeling in there with them, summoning from the apostle?

No, a separate detachment. I was just throwing things together to try to test out new Chaos stuff. I had Abaddon, Magnus, and the Changeling in a supreme command detachment alongside an Alpha Legion battalion, which was Cultists, Possessed, and a unit of Havocs.

Really happy with the Possessed and Cultists. I was planning to cast the Nurgle power on the Cultists to make them harder to hit too, but that wasn't necessary -- I feel like you'd only ever want it if you didn't get the first turn, but then you can't cast it anyway. The threat of the Cultist respawn stratagem meant that they weren't getting shot at much.

Magnus with +1 to his invulnerable save shrugged off 10 re-rolling lascannons without a wound. This was lucky but it still almost doubles his durability.

I'm not actually sure I have the CP to spare to have the Havocs shoot twice. But I may be biased because they missed all of their shots when using the stratagem.

I should have deep struck Abaddon; he didn't accomplish much other than helping a little with morale tests. Mostly he's there for +2 CP, and he can probably be dropped altogether in favor of another battalion of something.

I'm working on a version without Magnus because that's going to be a bit much for casual games.

Ermm, I think Magnus is a superheavy, not a command unit. So, not sure if you got your supreme command detachment of Abaddon, Magnus and the Changling wrong ...

Still, the idea of tzeenth possessed along with Changling in Alpha legion is really nice. I might try it too.

Changling with tzeenth obliteraters from an alpha legion also sounds really good.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Ermm, I think Magnus is a superheavy, not a command unit. So, not sure if you got your supreme command detachment of Abaddon, Magnus and the Changling wrong ...

Still, the idea of tzeenth possessed along with Changling in Alpha legion is really nice. I might try it too.

Yeah, the SC detachment also had Ahriman for helping to cast Chaos powers. But the SC also has a slot for a super-heavy, and that leaves a free detachment, though I don't have many points. I tossed in a few Malefic Lords in another SC detachment to make up the last 100 points and get me another CP. And then the battalion had a Lord and a Champion, but the Lord should really be swapped for an Apostle or maybe a winged Prince -- I was originally thinking I would run the Cultists with lasguns but it occurred to me just before the game that the big squad would be a lot better with more CC ability given how much easier it is to get re-rolls there, and I wanted to have both the Alpha Legion chainsword and the Murdersword.

How do you guys play forward operatives? Like deep strike? Are you all still allowed to move, shoot and charge after you deploy a unit from forward operatives? or do you play it like deep strike where the unit counts as having moved already if you deploy it from froward operatives.

Also, do you deploy if just before you take your turn, or just before the 1st turn starts (whoever starts first). So, if opponent gets to start first, do you then still have to deploy forward operatives, after which they will get shot at and charged by the opponent?

Forward operatives seem really good, but given how it may determine the whole flow of the game, Its wording may be subject to alot of argument by you and your opponent. I mean, no opponent likes the idea of one or more unit who may deploy at 9.1 inches who can move, shoot and charge. And the issue is that if you deploy your army more as a beta strike army (because it has quite a few drops), then forward operatives becomes less powerful. Its best when you can go first.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
How do you guys play forward operatives? Like deep strike? Are you all still allowed to move, shoot and charge after you deploy a unit from forward operatives? or do you play it like deep strike where the unit counts as having moved already if you deploy it from froward operatives.

Also, do you deploy if just before you take your turn, or just before the 1st turn starts (whoever starts first). So, if opponent gets to start first, do you then still have to deploy forward operatives, after which they will get shot at and charged by the opponent?

Forward operatives seem really good, but given how it may determine the whole flow of the game, Its wording may be subject to alot of argument by you and your opponent. I mean, no opponent likes the idea of one or more unit who may deploy at 9.1 inches who can move, shoot and charge. And the issue is that if you deploy your army more as a beta strike army (because it has quite a few drops), then forward operatives becomes less powerful. Its best when you can go first.

It functions just like a deep strike, but it's explicit that it happens before the first turn, so it's clear that you can move the unit on your first turn. Units arriving as reinforcements are only unable to move on the turn they arrive.

You set them up before the very first player's turn, no matter whose turn that is. I am not 100% clear on whether you set them up before or after you decide which player actually has the first turn, but I asked in YMDC and so far I'm outnumbered. If that holds, then you know for sure when you set the unit up that you will be going first or that you will be going second, and so you can deploy aggressively or defensively as appropriate.

But, yes, it's incredibly powerful, especially if you have relatively few drops and so are likely to go first. However, even if you're not going first you can get a lot out of it. Along with the identical Raven Guard stratagem, it means that armies need to be prepared to deal with any (Chaos) Space Marine infantry unit moving, shooting, and charging after starting 9" away on the first turn. Or multiple such units. You don't even have to decide which unit is using it until you see your opponent, so you could bring something to rip through a Conscript blob and something to kill tanks and then use the stratagem for the appropriate squad (or both!) depending. I'm not sure that anyone has a great answer to this other than (of course) Imperial Guard with Ratlings.

I think angling to go first is great for using forward operatives. Also, from what I understand, forward operatives can be used several times (if you have the CP for it), since deployment is not even considered a proper "phase". Although, again this may be subject to argument. (sigh, this strategem is great, but subject to so many potential arguments).

And from what I read in that thread, deployment happens before determining who goes first, and then the 1st battle turn starts. So, that prevents forward operatives from being godlike. Because firstly, there is a chance opponent goes first after you have already placed forward operatives (if you all use a roll off system to determine who goes first). And secondly, even if you go first, opponent has a chance to sieze initiative, and he would for sure use his reroll, so still possible he might end up going first too.

One problem with angling to go first, is that you then have to go for few drops. it constrains your army list.

In response to the conversation about Defilers a page or two earlier, Ive been running 3 of them alongside Abaddon and they've been pretty baller. They're togher than one would think, and theyre a hilarious respone to deep strikers. Otherwise they bombard stuff with their general purpose Battle Cannons and reapers for fire support.

And people gasp at the strength 16, which is fun.

Two of them have the twin Heavy Flamer option, just because thats whats painted. The scourge might be smarter, but having the auto hit flamers when he would otherwise be hitting on 5s or 6s at low wounds has been remarkably helpful.

Can I get a link to the Forward Ops thread? My take on it is:

- deployment finishes before first turn is determined
- declaring that a unit is set up in concealment fulfils the obligation to deploy it, just like if you set it up in a teleportarium
- a battle round is defined as two consecutive player turns, starting with the first player's movement phase
- who goes first and second is determined before the start of the first battle round
- forward ops are therefore deployed immediately before player one takes their first movement phase, which happens after it is determined who goes first

AFAICT the majority are wrong on this

Now that they are cheaper, Defilers might be worth considering. But mainly for close combat to midrange I feel. They suffer so much once they start moving. The battle cannon becomes a 5+ to hit stuff lol. Would have been better if the reaper cannon could have been swapped for either flamer options or close CC option.

And they are still close to 200 points, even with the cheaper armament options. Plus its not like they move that fast. 8 inches. Could take as long as third turn before they can charge something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Can I get a link to the Forward Ops thread? My take on it is:

- deployment finishes before first turn is determined
- declaring that a unit is set up in concealment fulfils the obligation to deploy it, just like if you set it up in a teleportarium
- a battle round is defined as two consecutive player turns, starting with the first player's movement phase
- who goes first and second is determined before the start of the first battle round
- forward ops are therefore deployed immediately before player one takes their first movement phase, which happens after it is determined who goes first

AFAICT the majority are wrong on this

Most of the people in that thread so far feel that forward ops deployment happens before it is determined who goes first. I got a feeling this will require a FAQ before it can be settled conclusively. And if you try to play your version, be prepared for a long rules argument with your opponent. (because like I said, its a pretty powerful strategem if you make your list based on using it).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, if the strategem can be used multiple times because you argue that deployment is not considered a phase, you wouldn't even care so much even if you have to use forward operatives before it is determined who goes first.

Consider if I play 4 squads of 20 zerkers along with 3 cultists and my alpha legion warlord. (Its not even a 2000 point list). So, I use 4 cp to use forward operatives 4 times to place the 4 berserker squads all within 9.1 inches of the opponent line.

Who cares even if opponent starts first. I have got a mass of 80 zerkers which I can position however I want up the board within 9.1 inches of the opponent's army. You get at most one round of shooting before I will definitely charge your lines. And if I go first, most armies would probably conceded already because I don't know how many armies can take being charged by 80 zerkers turn 1. lol.

If I want to be "conservative". I can position the 80 zerks at 12.1 inches. Now they are at -1 to hit and I just need to make a 6 inch charge after my move. I save on Rhinos, and heck, I can even save on bringing icons of wrath.

But of course, I think opponent may argue to death about whether you can use forward operatives multiple times. Its a really powerful mechanic, but the kind of rules arguments it will bring about ....

They are right to say that forward ops deployment happens before it is determined who goes first. However, 'Deployment' in this context refers not to setting up a unit in play on the table, but declaring that they are in concealment - the exact same term used for Assassins. An Alpha Legion Squad and a Vindicare are deployed in a pipe or bush or crater somewhere, some Terminators are deployed in a teleportarium, an assault squad is deployed in a thunderhawk ready to pass.

Setting these Concealed units up happens later - at the start of the first battle round, which happens after determining who goes first and immediately before the first player's movement phase in the case of the AL, and at the end of the Imperium player's movement phase in the case of the Vindicare. But they were Deployed the instant the players committed them to Concealment.

Yes, it's extremely powerful, especially if it is unlimited. I would happily accept an errata that makes them commit to set up before working out who goes first, but right now that is simply not RAW.

I don't think we've had an FAQ on number of pregame stratagems? It's a question that also applies to Gifts of Chaos - can we burn 4CP to run seven Artefacts?

 Insectum7 wrote:
In response to the conversation about Defilers a page or two earlier, Ive been running 3 of them alongside Abaddon and they've been pretty baller. They're togher than one would think, and theyre a hilarious respone to deep strikers. Otherwise they bombard stuff with their general purpose Battle Cannons and reapers for fire support.

And people gasp at the strength 16, which is fun.

Two of them have the twin Heavy Flamer option, just because thats whats painted. The scourge might be smarter, but having the auto hit flamers when he would otherwise be hitting on 5s or 6s at low wounds has been remarkably helpful.

Actually, how are they a hilarious response to deepstrikers? Because of their twin heavy flamers? Still doesn't prevent say a host of scions who just want to jump strike in and unleash all their plasma or meltas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lindsay40k wrote:
They are right to say that forward ops deployment happens before it is determined who goes first. However, 'Deployment' in this context refers not to setting up a unit in play on the table, but declaring that they are in concealment - the exact same term used for Assassins. An Alpha Legion Squad and a Vindicare are deployed in a pipe or bush or crater somewhere, some Terminators are deployed in a teleportarium, an assault squad is deployed in a thunderhawk ready to pass.

Setting these Concealed units up happens later - at the start of the first battle round, which happens after determining who goes first and immediately before the first player's movement phase in the case of the AL, and at the end of the Imperium player's movement phase in the case of the Vindicare. But they were Deployed the instant the players committed them to Concealment.

Yes, it's extremely powerful, especially if it is unlimited. I would happily accept an errata that makes them commit to set up before working out who goes first, but right now that is simply not RAW.

I don't think we've had an FAQ on number of pregame stratagems? It's a question that also applies to Gifts of Chaos - can we burn 4CP to run seven Artefacts?

Personally, given how powerful this strategem is. I am pretty sure they will FAQ it to mean use just once, even if used pregame start. Its just too op otherwise. I mean, who needs transports when I can just burn multiple CPs to bring the bulk of my entire army into charge range?

I was thinking of using the alpha strike to set up some combi-plasma chosen in cover. They put some early pressure on my opponent while everything else rushes foward. I think rhinos are worth taking to absorb overwatch, and everything else I'm using is fast and/or deepstrikes in (wing DP w/ToBB, jump pack sorcerer, warptalons, and raptors). I agree that it may be too OP if its unlimited use, no real need for transports. Although I do really like the 80 berzerker rush idea! For the chosen squad, I'm thinking 6 dedicated to slaanesh with 5 combi-plasma and either a plasma gun or heavy bolter. Thats 164 or 161, respectively, and if they shoot twice they'll almost certainly make their points back.

Hi,

Just starting out an EC army and was looking for advice if this loadout made sense:

5 TERMINATORS
3 storm bolters + Lightning claws
1 Heavy flamer + lightning claws
Champion with melta gun + powerfist
Icon of excess

They will arrive from DS with a Sorcerer in terminator armor w/ force stave and some kind of combi weapon and use warptime and preciense on them.

this is my logic:
Warptime will close the distance.
In the shooting phase I unload 12 bolter shots and 1 melta shot and hopefully in range of heavy flamer. This might strip away some chaff and/or weaken a unit before charging.
The average terminator will have 2x S4 attacks, against imperium a 5+ to hit (4+ if preciense goes off) gains me an extra attack. In addition re-rolling wounds because of LCs.
The champ is there to help deal with vehicles and multi-wound targets with the melta and powerfist.

the sorcerer will likely be in the open after his termy bodyguard gets warptimed and charges, although with good positioning this may not be a problem.

I am thinking maybe dual claws would be better? an extra attack in CC and the fact that all of that shooting might make the charge harder to make because of enemy casualties. However this would result in loss of flexibility.
Also would a reaper cannon be better than a heavy flamer? If warptime fails, the heavy flamer will not be in range after the DS. But my logic here is that the terminators will be in constant movement and the HEAVY profile of the reaper would not be ideal (-1 to hit).

Any advise from more experienced players would be greatly appreciated! Thanks

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
In response to the conversation about Defilers a page or two earlier, Ive been running 3 of them alongside Abaddon and they've been pretty baller. They're togher than one would think, and theyre a hilarious respone to deep strikers. Otherwise they bombard stuff with their general purpose Battle Cannons and reapers for fire support.

And people gasp at the strength 16, which is fun.

Two of them have the twin Heavy Flamer option, just because thats whats painted. The scourge might be smarter, but having the auto hit flamers when he would otherwise be hitting on 5s or 6s at low wounds has been remarkably helpful.

Actually, how are they a hilarious response to deepstrikers? Because of their twin heavy flamers? Still doesn't prevent say a host of scions who just want to jump strike in and unleash all their plasma or meltas.

Because they assault and mash things, and have a variety of weapons. They actually do ok taking plasma with the invuln and 14 wounds too. They are big and brutish and fun. Three of them together helps optimize reponses, firing Autocannons at one target, Battlecannons at another, Heavy Flamers and Assaulting a third.

At range they dont have to move, and get the rerolls from Abaddon. If the enemy gets close they react and pound stuff. The dual role sets them apart from most other chaos vehicles, and youre not locked into a strategy with them.

Actually, if Abbadon is gonna sit in the back field with them just to provide rerolls. I would suggest you go world eaters and just use Kharn along with world eaters defilers. Kharn is cheaper than Abbadon, just as fierce on the counter charge, and Kharn also can provide rerolls to hit for your defilers.

BTW,can I check something? Can I give an artifact to a champion? Like can I give Axe of Biting Fury to my berzerker champion? Because I actually think a berzerker champion with an axe of biting fury is more deadly on the attack compared to a chaos lord on foot with the same axe of biting fury. lol

Eldenfirefly wrote:


BTW,can I check something? Can I give an artifact to a champion? Like can I give Axe of Biting Fury to my berzerker champion? Because I actually think a berzerker champion with an axe of biting fury is more deadly on the attack compared to a chaos lord on foot with the same axe of biting fury. lol

CHARACTERs only :(

awww, ok thanks. Disappointed. lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another question. If my Khorne chaos lord is locked in combat. Can he still do a demon ritual and summon in some daemons? Fighting doesn't mean move right?

Also, Daemon ritual can be done as long as a character didn't move. So I can summon in a bunch of daemons, and still charge into combat after that right?

Eldenfirefly wrote:
awww, ok thanks. Disappointed. lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another question. If my Khorne chaos lord is locked in combat. Can he still do a demon ritual and summon in some daemons? Fighting doesn't mean move right?

Also, Daemon ritual can be done as long as a character didn't move. So I can summon in a bunch of daemons, and still charge into combat after that right?

Sounds right

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Alpha Legion Tzeentch Possessed with The Changeling seem really solid. I just had them shut down a Guilliman list by deploying 12.1" away (to dodge Auspex Scan and guarantee heavy weapons hitting at -2 if I go second) and then locking everything in combat. He fell back on his turn but then his heavy weapons were shooting at -2 to everything and -3 to things past 12" or the Possessed. If you're already daisy-chaining back to The Changeling (this is easy because you have 20 models in the unit), it makes sense to bring along a Champion to re-roll wounds and maybe an Apostle.

Cultists were also really solid. Same idea -- 40 of them deploy in the enemy's face, daisy-chained back to the Champion. This is only 160 points, but they're a massive tar pit that threaten to put out a huge number of re-rolled attacks in CC.

how'd you get the changeling in there with them, summoning from the apostle?

No, a separate detachment. I was just throwing things together to try to test out new Chaos stuff. I had Abaddon, Magnus, and the Changeling in a supreme command detachment alongside an Alpha Legion battalion, which was Cultists, Possessed, and a unit of Havocs.

...

okie, struggling to work out then how you deployed the possessed 'and' the changeling 12.1" away?