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Only release date we have is September. Hopefully early September.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
Black Legion specifically may not have any improvement but Chaos as a whole just went to bonkers levels.

You're not required to have an entire detachment of World Eaters or Emperor's Children to benefit from making them World Eaters or Emperor's Children.

So expect to see Troop Berzerkers and Troop Noise Marines in mixed CSM detachments too. Previously Berzerker Horde was an army rule. Now it's a unit ability.

I love how literally you read the rules. Every time I am wondering about how a rule is worded, there's Arkaine making the case for how it allows an absurd army list to happen. Until GW hires you as a proofreader, all of their books will be flawed.

That said - not sure who wants to give up +1 on the charge, fight first or other legion traits just to have these units as troops. Feels like it would make more sense to take them as elites.

So essentially, we can two three units of WE zerkers/EC Noise Marines plus two Maleficent lords for cheap battalions with obsec troops. Nice.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
Black Legion specifically may not have any improvement but Chaos as a whole just went to bonkers levels.

You're not required to have an entire detachment of World Eaters or Emperor's Children to benefit from making them World Eaters or Emperor's Children.

So expect to see Troop Berzerkers and Troop Noise Marines in mixed CSM detachments too. Previously Berzerker Horde was an army rule. Now it's a unit ability.

I love how literally you read the rules. Every time I am wondering about how a rule is worded, there's Arkaine making the case for how it allows an absurd army list to happen. Until GW hires you as a proofreader, all of their books will be flawed.

That said - not sure who wants to give up +1 on the charge, fight first or other legion traits just to have these units as troops. Feels like it would make more sense to take them as elites.

So essentially, we can two three units of WE zerkers/EC Noise Marines plus two Maleficent lords for cheap battalions with obsec troops. Nice.

Malefic lords are chaos space marines ? won't we lose objective secured because they aren't the same sub faction.

 Rydria wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
Black Legion specifically may not have any improvement but Chaos as a whole just went to bonkers levels.

You're not required to have an entire detachment of World Eaters or Emperor's Children to benefit from making them World Eaters or Emperor's Children.

So expect to see Troop Berzerkers and Troop Noise Marines in mixed CSM detachments too. Previously Berzerker Horde was an army rule. Now it's a unit ability.

I love how literally you read the rules. Every time I am wondering about how a rule is worded, there's Arkaine making the case for how it allows an absurd army list to happen. Until GW hires you as a proofreader, all of their books will be flawed.

That said - not sure who wants to give up +1 on the charge, fight first or other legion traits just to have these units as troops. Feels like it would make more sense to take them as elites.

So essentially, we can two three units of WE zerkers/EC Noise Marines plus two Maleficent lords for cheap battalions with obsec troops. Nice.

Malefic lords are chaos space marines ? won't we lose objective secured because they aren't the same sub faction.

Ah, yeah, not obsec. Still cheapish battalions for command points. Thanks for the correction, I got ahead of myself. Still good, and one could replace the lords with apostles or exaulted champs to get obsec, if one has the points. Still pretty good. What would be better for zerkers, +1 hitting or wounding?

Three ObSec Plague Marine or Rubric units with a pair of cheaper DPs that can hide behind other units isn't a bad option for a mainly Daemonic army

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:
Gearing up for a tournament this coming weekend, my Night Lords list has developed a strong core I think, but I've got 220 points left to spend, which leaves me wondering, what are our best supporting units?

Rough List:

Demon Prince, MoT, Talons
Lord with Jump Pack, MoT, Claws of the Black Hunt
Socerer W/Jump Pack
Sorcerer on bike

3 units of 10 cultists
5 Slaanesh Terminators w Combi Plasma and Power Fists
15 Raptors with mark of Khorne (3 plasma pistols)
5 Raptors with Mark of Slaanesh (2 Multi-Melta, 1x Combi Melta)
5 Bikers w/MoN, 2 Multi-Meltas, 1x Combi Melta, Icon of Despair
5x Warp Talons w/MoK
1x Chaos Spawn
1x Chaos Spawn

1780 points.

So I'm wondering, should I take some obliterators for added firepower? Maybe a Heldrake to deal with opposing flyers? A predator with lots of Lascannons? I've got 8 command points, and Marks stacked throughout so that I can buff the units that might be having a hard time.

Or maybe my beloved contemptor.... haha, it's a hard choice!

I think the more jump troops to impose the penalties on leadership, the better. I might suggest splitting the Raptors up and adding more to form a third unit? I love Night Lords.

 Rydria wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
Black Legion specifically may not have any improvement but Chaos as a whole just went to bonkers levels.

You're not required to have an entire detachment of World Eaters or Emperor's Children to benefit from making them World Eaters or Emperor's Children.

So expect to see Troop Berzerkers and Troop Noise Marines in mixed CSM detachments too. Previously Berzerker Horde was an army rule. Now it's a unit ability.

I love how literally you read the rules. Every time I am wondering about how a rule is worded, there's Arkaine making the case for how it allows an absurd army list to happen. Until GW hires you as a proofreader, all of their books will be flawed.

That said - not sure who wants to give up +1 on the charge, fight first or other legion traits just to have these units as troops. Feels like it would make more sense to take them as elites.

So essentially, we can two three units of WE zerkers/EC Noise Marines plus two Maleficent lords for cheap battalions with obsec troops. Nice.

Malefic lords are chaos space marines ? won't we lose objective secured because they aren't the same sub faction.

The way i'm reading it, none of this is possible. the eratta:
Page 116 – <Mark of Chaos>
Add the following to the last paragraph:
‘If a unit has the Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh
keywords, it cannot be from the World Eaters Legion,
and if a unit has the Khorne, Tzeentch or Nurgle
keywords, it cannot be from the Emperor’s Children
Legion. In addition, Psykers cannot be from the World
Eaters Legion.’

Page 132 – Khorne Berzerkers, Abilities
Add the following ability:
‘Berzerker Horde: The Battlefield Role of World Eaters
Khorne Berzerkers is Troops instead of Elites.’
Page 135 – Noise Marines, Abilities
Add the following ability:
‘Masters of the Kakophoni: The Battlefield Role of
Emperor’s Children Noise Marines is Troops instead
of Elites.’

and on page 156, end of 1st paragraph "A Chaos Space Marines Detachment is therefore which includes units with one of these keywords"

Ya, i thought each detachment picked a legion keyword, jot each unit

I'm not sure what people thought changed. You could always run a detachment as EC and get noise marine troops in it, then run another as WE for zerker troops, in a single army. They always changed to troops based on the keyword assigned to them not as a bonus for having a WE/EC army or even detachment. The only thing that changed is legion traits make running zerkers and noise marines both as troops in a single detachment less appealing.

That being said, I fully expect EC/WE (and later tsons and DG) to be used as the battalion for many CSM armies. It's a attractive option for those who want to stay away from cultists as troops (and normal CSM squads are still pointless).

Why the Warp did they use this convoluted term of phrase that's open to argument instead of just using HERETIC ASTARTES? Oh, no, DG or TS might have early access to DotG and Stratagems via application of common sense, quick, close the door on easy expansion for extra factions like the Crimson Slaughter we previously tried to make happen

SilverAlien wrote:
I'm not sure what people thought changed. You could always run a detachment as EC and get noise marine troops in it, then run another as WE for zerker troops, in a single army. They always changed to troops based on the keyword assigned to them not as a bonus for having a WE/EC army or even detachment. The only thing that changed is legion traits make running zerkers and noise marines both as troops in a single detachment less appealing.

That being said, I fully expect EC/WE (and later tsons and DG) to be used as the battalion for many CSM armies. It's a attractive option for those who want to stay away from cultists as troops (and normal CSM squads are still pointless).

It wasn't so much what changed from the index, so much as what I thought it would be. My thoughts were in order to get troops, one would have to have a detatchment of the same Legion. I think it is coming from the old edition. What changed was instead of running an elites detatchment, you can run a troops one, in other words, two more command points. Batallion vs. vanguard (or whatever they call the elites one).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
Ya, i thought each detachment picked a legion keyword, jot each unit

Yes, but all Chaos cult troops will inevitably have a same keyword, "chaos". You don't have to "pick" one, the units just have them, and all units need to share at least one.

SilverAlien wrote:
I'm not sure what people thought changed. You could always run a detachment as EC and get noise marine troops in it, then run another as WE for zerker troops, in a single army. They always changed to troops based on the keyword assigned to them not as a bonus for having a WE/EC army or even detachment. The only thing that changed is legion traits make running zerkers and noise marines both as troops in a single detachment less appealing.

That being said, I fully expect EC/WE (and later tsons and DG) to be used as the battalion for many CSM armies. It's a attractive option for those who want to stay away from cultists as troops (and normal CSM squads are still pointless).

Well i just returned from leaving 4th edition, where all 4 where troops and i had my army built with berserkers and noise marines as the troops. chaos codex is the only 8th edition material i have to go on for the new rules, with a picture of sorcerer on bike from the index so i have the stats for a previously converted model. In the codex, it doesn't list them as troops in any aspect at all. the eratta changes this, allowing me to effectively use my forces the way they're meant to be used without buying a load of cultists.

however, you cant run berserkers when noise marines are troops in a detachment, and vice versa. page 156 of the codex covers (and the eratta clarifies) this, a detachment may inlcude only 1 of the faction keywords (EC, WE, WB, BL, NL, AL, IW and renegade chapters). so to run both with one or both as troops, you need multiple detachments

 thundertau wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
I'm not sure what people thought changed. You could always run a detachment as EC and get noise marine troops in it, then run another as WE for zerker troops, in a single army. They always changed to troops based on the keyword assigned to them not as a bonus for having a WE/EC army or even detachment. The only thing that changed is legion traits make running zerkers and noise marines both as troops in a single detachment less appealing.

That being said, I fully expect EC/WE (and later tsons and DG) to be used as the battalion for many CSM armies. It's a attractive option for those who want to stay away from cultists as troops (and normal CSM squads are still pointless).

Well i just returned from leaving 4th edition, where all 4 where troops and i had my army built with berserkers and noise marines as the troops. chaos codex is the only 8th edition material i have to go on for the new rules, with a picture of sorcerer on bike from the index so i have the stats for a previously converted model. In the codex, it doesn't list them as troops in any aspect at all. the eratta changes this, allowing me to effectively use my forces the way they're meant to be used without buying a load of cultists.

however, you cant run berserkers when noise marines are troops in a detachment, and vice versa. page 116 of the codex covers (and the eratta clarifies) this, a detachment may inlcude only 1 of the faction keywords (EC, WE, WB, BL, NL, AL, IW and renegade chapters). so to run both with one or both as troops, you need multiple detachments

I don't think so. Because the rule for troops is in the unit, all you need to do is make the unit a specific faction. One detatchment under chaos can have two malific sorcerers, two units of Noise Marines and one unit of zerkers, and the NM and zerkers are still troops. All you need to do is give them their respective Legion keyword. Heck, you could even do it with two daemon heralds as hqs.

Not sure how the errata effects sorcerers on bikes as it makes no mention of them. They are allowed via a post GW made on their community page though.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 thundertau wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
I'm not sure what people thought changed. You could always run a detachment as EC and get noise marine troops in it, then run another as WE for zerker troops, in a single army. They always changed to troops based on the keyword assigned to them not as a bonus for having a WE/EC army or even detachment. The only thing that changed is legion traits make running zerkers and noise marines both as troops in a single detachment less appealing.

That being said, I fully expect EC/WE (and later tsons and DG) to be used as the battalion for many CSM armies. It's a attractive option for those who want to stay away from cultists as troops (and normal CSM squads are still pointless).

Well i just returned from leaving 4th edition, where all 4 where troops and i had my army built with berserkers and noise marines as the troops. chaos codex is the only 8th edition material i have to go on for the new rules, with a picture of sorcerer on bike from the index so i have the stats for a previously converted model. In the codex, it doesn't list them as troops in any aspect at all. the eratta changes this, allowing me to effectively use my forces the way they're meant to be used without buying a load of cultists.

however, you cant run berserkers when noise marines are troops in a detachment, and vice versa. page 116 of the codex covers (and the eratta clarifies) this, a detachment may inlcude only 1 of the faction keywords (EC, WE, WB, BL, NL, AL, IW and renegade chapters). so to run both with one or both as troops, you need multiple detachments

I don't think so. Because the rule for troops is in the unit, all you need to do is make the unit a specific faction. One detatchment under chaos can have two malific sorcerers, two units of Noise Marines and one unit of zerkers, and the NM and zerkers are still troops. All you need to do is give them their respective Legion keyword. Heck, you could even do it with two daemon heralds as hqs.


Not sure how the errata effects sorcerers on bikes as it makes no mention of them. They are allowed via a post GW made on their community page though.

page 156, not 116. it specifically states a detachment can contain only one of the <legion> keywords. and eratta makes berserkers illegal in a EC legion detachment, and noise marines illegal in a WE legion detachments. you can't mix and match legion traits/keywords within a detachment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorcerer is pointless to current discussion, just making the point that i don't have any other resources for units

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 thundertau wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
I'm not sure what people thought changed. You could always run a detachment as EC and get noise marine troops in it, then run another as WE for zerker troops, in a single army. They always changed to troops based on the keyword assigned to them not as a bonus for having a WE/EC army or even detachment. The only thing that changed is legion traits make running zerkers and noise marines both as troops in a single detachment less appealing.

That being said, I fully expect EC/WE (and later tsons and DG) to be used as the battalion for many CSM armies. It's a attractive option for those who want to stay away from cultists as troops (and normal CSM squads are still pointless).

Well i just returned from leaving 4th edition, where all 4 where troops and i had my army built with berserkers and noise marines as the troops. chaos codex is the only 8th edition material i have to go on for the new rules, with a picture of sorcerer on bike from the index so i have the stats for a previously converted model. In the codex, it doesn't list them as troops in any aspect at all. the eratta changes this, allowing me to effectively use my forces the way they're meant to be used without buying a load of cultists.

however, you cant run berserkers when noise marines are troops in a detachment, and vice versa. page 116 of the codex covers (and the eratta clarifies) this, a detachment may inlcude only 1 of the faction keywords (EC, WE, WB, BL, NL, AL, IW and renegade chapters). so to run both with one or both as troops, you need multiple detachments

I don't think so. Because the rule for troops is in the unit, all you need to do is make the unit a specific faction. One detatchment under chaos can have two malific sorcerers, two units of Noise Marines and one unit of zerkers, and the NM and zerkers are still troops. All you need to do is give them their respective Legion keyword. Heck, you could even do it with two daemon heralds as hqs.

Not sure how the errata effects sorcerers on bikes as it makes no mention of them. They are allowed via a post GW made on their community page though.

You are correct, the units in that detachment just do not get their specific 'Legion Trait'. You only gain that bonus if everything in a detachment is from the same legion.

If you want just We or just EC detatchments to get Legion traits, yes. Nothing is stopping you from making a <chaos> detatchment with both as troops. They wouldn't get obsec or Legion traits, but they would get the sweet, sweet CPs.

the wording on page 156 seems to say otherwise, unless i'm reading it wrong.
"A Chaos Space Marine Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with on of these keywords"
How would you be able to keep them in the same detachment while having different legion keyowrds?

So not sure if this has been pointed out but VotLW and Flames of Spite warlord traits on models with a high number of attacks can be very devastating. Espically when paired with The Black Mace which can net you more kills.

I was thinking of doing something like this:

Battalion Detachment: WE, 2 Zerkers and 1 Cultists as troops.

Patrol Detachment: EC, Noise Marines as the troop.

Each separate Detachment will trigger the Legion Trait for themselves.

156 is detailing the rules for a "chaos marine detachment," not legal detachments in general. Qualifying as a CSM detachment gives you traits and obsec, etc, but you can still take a detachment with mixed legions or chaos units in general.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
No love for bikes?

With Warp Talons being ludicrously good, I'm sure there could be some mileage over dropping in talons and raptors shooting bikes up the board since they are so fast and following up with some rhinos with zerkers inside.

One hell of a choppy fast moving army. No screens to protect the rhinos though....

Bikes should be ok now with the points drop. They are a shooty platform, not really meant for close combat. You waste a lot of their shooting if you try and charge into CC, unless you can kill off your opponent and not get countercharged in the next turn. I think Rhinos themselves are already a screen to protect the infantry inside. Once you popped smoke on Rhinos, they are -1 to hit. If opponent still wants to shoot a T7, 3+, 10 wound transport with a -1 to hit, I think you should be more than happy to let them. So I don't really think Rhinos need a screen.

re-reading the page a few times, i think i've just read it too literally, going by what youse are saying. Just to clarify, you can mix and match, but if you decide to mix and match at all you lose out on legion traits but gain "extra troops"?

 thundertau wrote:
the wording on page 156 seems to say otherwise, unless i'm reading it wrong.
"A Chaos Space Marine Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with on of these keywords"
How would you be able to keep them in the same detachment while having different legion keyowrds?

It just wouldn't be a CSM detachment. You could have it be a generic chaos detachment instead. It is a weird rule though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thundertau wrote:
re-reading the page a few times, i think i've just read it too literally, going by what youse are saying. Just to clarify, you can mix and match, but if you decide to mix and match at all you lose out on legion traits but gain "extra troops"?

You'd lose all the unique stuff from the codex, including obsec and traits/relics/tactics. In return, you'd be able to mix in demons as well as mix legions, though there isn't much point beyond having cult troops. Even that's just for cp as they don't gain any other benefit for being troops. So in practice I doubt anyone will but you still can do so.

 Draco765 wrote:
I was thinking of doing something like this:

Battalion Detachment: WE, 2 Zerkers and 1 Cultists as troops.

Patrol Detachment: EC, Noise Marines as the troop.

Each separate Detachment will trigger the Legion Trait for themselves.

It's fine, you just need the HQs to fill out the detatchments.

Ehh in Battlescribe I cannot give Obliterators mark of Slaanesh, what gives? Oh nvm - I checked they are not infantry or biker anyways......

Are oblits worth it dropping in with a lord for the 1 rerolls? Anyone tried them?

What are players thoughts on heldrakes in 8th? Gaming experience hasn't been that great so far as despite attracting a lot of fire they don't have much damage output either from the flamer or CC.

For approximately the same point cost I could take a winged prince or a decimator with a soul burner and either seem like a superior choice.

Perhaps just using wrong?

 buddha wrote:
What are players thoughts on heldrakes in 8th? Gaming experience hasn't been that great so far as despite attracting a lot of fire they don't have much damage output either from the flamer or CC.

For approximately the same point cost I could take a winged prince or a decimator with a soul burner and either seem like a superior choice.

Perhaps just using wrong?

its the 30 inch charge and ability to hold up a high value unit that makes the screamin eagle of chaos interesting. Sometimes an enemy will have units that rely heavily on their alpha ability and keeping a key unit or two from doing it is pretty cool. So all in all, while it does strike me as somewhat...less...than it used to be, it has utilty in this way, no matter its damage output.

 scommy wrote:
Ehh in Battlescribe I cannot give Obliterators mark of Slaanesh, what gives? Oh nvm - I checked they are not infantry or biker anyways......

Are oblits worth it dropping in with a lord for the 1 rerolls? Anyone tried them?

Oblits are infantry in the codex unless this was FAQed

P.S. my updated version of battlescribe has not updated all point totals - plagues are still 8 points and abaddon is 253 or whatever. Just an FYI. Maybe I am having patch issues...

If your opponent is dumb enough not to use any sort of screen whatsoever, the Heldrake can conceivably charge a unit to impact it's shooting...and then probably fail to kill anything. If you want it to accomplish anything beyond that, or your opponent is competent enough to screen off important units, it's a waste of 185 points. Speaking from experience, not just negative theory-crafting. The movement speed is great, but it's overpriced--either needs to be a good bit cheaper still, more durable, or have more attacks so it can actually inflict some damage.

After all the time I spent painting and converting mine, I certainly wish they were better.

SilverAlien wrote:

 thundertau wrote:
the wording on page 156 seems to say otherwise, unless i'm reading it wrong.
"A Chaos Space Marine Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with on of these keywords"
How would you be able to keep them in the same detachment while having different legion keyowrds?

It just wouldn't be a CSM detachment. You could have it be a generic chaos detachment instead. It is a weird rule though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thundertau wrote:
re-reading the page a few times, i think i've just read it too literally, going by what youse are saying. Just to clarify, you can mix and match, but if you decide to mix and match at all you lose out on legion traits but gain "extra troops"?

You'd lose all the unique stuff from the codex, including obsec and traits/relics/tactics. In return, you'd be able to mix in demons as well as mix legions, though there isn't much point beyond having cult troops. Even that's just for cp as they don't gain any other benefit for being troops. So in practice I doubt anyone will but you still can do so.

See, where pg156 says "A Chaos Space Marine Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with one of these keywords", I could read that to mean that:

Black Legion DP
Word Bearers Sorcerer
World Eaters Berzerkers
Emperor's Children Noise Marines
Night Lords Cultists

all have "one of these keywords". The same could be said of the similar paragraph in the Space Marines Codex (which specifically requires the units have AA as a Faction as well; the lack of HA Faction requirement is odd, considering the rest of the paragraph is identical, save the CHAPTER and LEGION specifics - almost as odd as Cultists *getting* HA as a keyword, even if that is just to ensure aura/psychic compatibility).

I have no intention to abuse this myself, but the question is open on both RAI & RAW here and definitely needs an FAQ so we all know where we are. Meantime, I'd recommend assuming it does mean you must have LEGION purity to be a CSM detachment, based on the omission of DG & TS from qualification, and also on the common sense maxim of 'don't spend a load of money on kits to exploit a rules interpretation which might be shut down within a few weeks'.