Niiru wrote:

 McGibs wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
It is on par with the alpha legion trait vs intended target i don't see people complaining about having no trait as alpha legion vs certain armies that do all there work within 12inches or in the assault phase.

Emperor's children is one of the strongest traits it gives you at worst infinite free counter offence. (Which costs 2cp) At best you're curbstomping assault armies because you will always hit first in subsequent rounds, it is why i give all the hellbrutes power scourges.

Well it's true that the Alpha Legion trait is less slightly useful on assault armies, but it still is useful especially on the first couple turns while you're moving your units up the board. -1 to hit means a lot more of them will make it into assault range in the first place. The only units that wont get any benefit are deepstrikers, but even then they would be safer from getting shot at from other enemy units that are further away, so they'd only be vulnerable to the enarby units (which are the ones they would be planning to assault anyway). So the trait is useful for all armies, for every turn of the game.

The emperors children trait is seems like it would only be useful for maybe one or two turns. Footslogging or transported troops wouldnt be in combat for the first turn or two anyway, so its useless for them then. If they charge (or are charged) on turn 2/3 the trait doesnt effect anything. So it's turn 3/4 that it starts really getting some use, for the surviving units. Maybe turn 4/5 too, if the game lasts that long and noone has fallen back or wiped out your squads.
But if you attack a weak unit, they're likely to fall back and have one of their assault units charge in (again negating the trait).
Or if you attack a strong unit, then you'll both get slaughtered, but you will get one extra turn of going first. Which is *great*, but it's only likely to happen for maybe 1 or 2 turns, for a couple of units that get the right conditions.
By which time you're on turn 4 or 5 so the game will be over.

I can see it being good in pure assault armies, that focus on lots of deepstriking assault units (or fast vehicles if they can get them into melee on turn 2).

But, and here's the downside... if you're emperors children, and taking Sonic Helbrutes and Noise Marines, then you wont have many points for these deeptriking / fast assault units. So it'll be wasted.

I'm still tempted to go with Empoerors Children, just so I get Noise Marine troops and the Sonic Brute. But I'd only have a couple of assault units to use as skirmishers, so I know I'd get only a bit of use from the trait.

I think he meant the AL trait is situationally useless AGAINST short ranged armies. I play Khorne CSM, and against a Ravenguard army, I don't think the trait came up at all. The little shooting I had was all anti-tank, shooting at targets that dont have the trait anyways. Everything else was only attacking once within 12" or melee.

Ahhhh... I didn't think of that. It's a good point. Two of the opponents I'm likely to play against run Tau / Imperial Guard tanks / Ultramarines, so I pretty much assume lots of long range firepower flying across the board.

I may rethink the Emperors Children trait then, though Alpha does also have the single infiltrators strategem which seem potentially useful (if there's a unit that can make good use of it).

It's also made me realise that maybe the Iron Warriors one isn't as bad as people say. Giving the enemy no cover saves at all isn't the worst thing in the world.

Mazzyx wrote:


Another thing to consider with EC is their stratagem excessive violence or whatever the name is.

In combat when you remove a model get an extra attack. Between death to the false emperor, icon of excess, prescience, and the stratagem you can tear through even a big blob if conscripts of you have to in one round with some close combat units.

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
World Eaters get an extra attack when they charge, but I believe it only lasts for the first round of combat.

Niiru wrote:

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
World Eaters get an extra attack when they charge, but I believe it only lasts for the first round of combat.

Yeh thats the one. Does mean everyone gets +1 attack on the charge, vs the Excess one where you only get one attack as you die... both good, probably fairly equal, unless a unit gets two charges off in one game (which is very doable for some units).

Excess would be better if you got one attack as your die even from shooting attacks, like Noise Marines get anyway. But would be overpowered.

Wonder if it means melee noise marines get 2 attacks when they die?

 Rydria wrote:

Niiru wrote:

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
World Eaters get an extra attack when they charge, but I believe it only lasts for the first round of combat.

Yeh thats the one. Does mean everyone gets +1 attack on the charge, vs the Excess one where you only get one attack as you die... both good, probably fairly equal, unless a unit gets two charges off in one game (which is very doable for some units).

Excess would be better if you got one attack as your die even from shooting attacks, like Noise Marines get anyway. But would be overpowered.

Wonder if it means melee noise marines get 2 attacks when they die?

The Excess of Violence is a stratagem and it isn't when you die it is when you kill something in the fight phase.

mario88826 wrote:
So I saw that Bloat drones to be decent - just like I was thinking. At least Bloat drones as everything from DG atm except for typhus and drones is straightforward overpriced or just weak.

I would love to make DG themed army that is at least semi viable on table not just for looks. But at this rate it looks like it will be 2x outrider full of bloat drones and idk typhus/sorcerer ...

I really hope GW will realize that plague marines and poxwalkers are vastly overpriced and should be more like 16-17 and 4-5 respectively points value.

Not even mentioning Lord of Contagion that i wouldn't even take for 130 points, let alone consider his current 184 point cost. This guy is slow, his aura is useless , lacks any utility and actually isn't even strong CC except vs elite infantry and characters. But completely fails against hordes with 4 attacks and anything with T7/T8.
I would say ~~125 points for this dude ... then ... maybe. Still not sold on this as he lacks mobility/ranged weapons or useful aura like rerolling 1's.

Am I missing something or atm anything DG exclusive just won't work against other decent lists ?

Hopefully DG codex will change it. But I don't believe guys who initially price plague marine at 21 points ... with standard bolter and 1 cc attack.

Edit : Isn't it also super stupid to lock legion trait only to infantry/bikers/helbrutes but at same time make infantry weak and removing bikers completely. I thinik iconic as of now bloat drones should be counted as helbrutes for legion tactic !

 ZergSmasher wrote:

mario88826 wrote:
So I saw that Bloat drones to be decent - just like I was thinking. At least Bloat drones as everything from DG atm except for typhus and drones is straightforward overpriced or just weak.

I would love to make DG themed army that is at least semi viable on table not just for looks. But at this rate it looks like it will be 2x outrider full of bloat drones and idk typhus/sorcerer ...

I really hope GW will realize that plague marines and poxwalkers are vastly overpriced and should be more like 16-17 and 4-5 respectively points value.

Not even mentioning Lord of Contagion that i wouldn't even take for 130 points, let alone consider his current 184 point cost. This guy is slow, his aura is useless , lacks any utility and actually isn't even strong CC except vs elite infantry and characters. But completely fails against hordes with 4 attacks and anything with T7/T8.
I would say ~~125 points for this dude ... then ... maybe. Still not sold on this as he lacks mobility/ranged weapons or useful aura like rerolling 1's.

Am I missing something or atm anything DG exclusive just won't work against other decent lists ?

Hopefully DG codex will change it. But I don't believe guys who initially price plague marine at 21 points ... with standard bolter and 1 cc attack.

Edit : Isn't it also super stupid to lock legion trait only to infantry/bikers/helbrutes but at same time make infantry weak and removing bikers completely. I thinik iconic as of now bloat drones should be counted as helbrutes for legion tactic !

Well, we're still waiting for the Death Guard codex; apparently it'll drop in the middle of September. We can only hope that they'll fix a lot of the problems DG units currently have, especially the Lord of Contagion. Right now, just take Typhus for the EXACT SAME AURAS/ABILITIES plus a bunch of extra ones, for 20 points less than the generic Lord of Contagion.

Ecdain wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

mario88826 wrote:
So I saw that Bloat drones to be decent - just like I was thinking. At least Bloat drones as everything from DG atm except for typhus and drones is straightforward overpriced or just weak.

I would love to make DG themed army that is at least semi viable on table not just for looks. But at this rate it looks like it will be 2x outrider full of bloat drones and idk typhus/sorcerer ...

I really hope GW will realize that plague marines and poxwalkers are vastly overpriced and should be more like 16-17 and 4-5 respectively points value.

Not even mentioning Lord of Contagion that i wouldn't even take for 130 points, let alone consider his current 184 point cost. This guy is slow, his aura is useless , lacks any utility and actually isn't even strong CC except vs elite infantry and characters. But completely fails against hordes with 4 attacks and anything with T7/T8.
I would say ~~125 points for this dude ... then ... maybe. Still not sold on this as he lacks mobility/ranged weapons or useful aura like rerolling 1's.

Am I missing something or atm anything DG exclusive just won't work against other decent lists ?

Hopefully DG codex will change it. But I don't believe guys who initially price plague marine at 21 points ... with standard bolter and 1 cc attack.

Edit : Isn't it also super stupid to lock legion trait only to infantry/bikers/helbrutes but at same time make infantry weak and removing bikers completely. I thinik iconic as of now bloat drones should be counted as helbrutes for legion tactic !

Well, we're still waiting for the Death Guard codex; apparently it'll drop in the middle of September. We can only hope that they'll fix a lot of the problems DG units currently have, especially the Lord of Contagion. Right now, just take Typhus for the EXACT SAME AURAS/ABILITIES plus a bunch of extra ones, for 20 points less than the generic Lord of Contagion.

Why is this an issue? It makes sense to me, like he's just a more efficient Lord. Are you mad because you can't take two typhus and must pay 20pts for same abilities on a Lord? If so I remind you I would gladly pay 50 more pts for a changeling if I could take a second, he's unique for a reason. Or do you not want to take typhus and just run a Lord cause you dislike named dudes? If so just call him a Lord on crack everywhere but the entry list, people will roll with it.

If it's something else I'd really like to know, it just confuses me why it's such a problem.

Arachnofiend wrote:
The real problem is that Typhus has more abilities than the Lord of Contagion and still costs less for some reason.

It doesn't make any sense. He's obviously an upgraded LoC, why doesn't he cost more?

Arachnofiend wrote:
The real problem is that Typhus has more abilities than the Lord of Contagion and still costs less for some reason.

It doesn't make any sense. He's obviously an upgraded LoC, why doesn't he cost more?

Niiru wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:
The real problem is that Typhus has more abilities than the Lord of Contagion and still costs less for some reason.

It doesn't make any sense. He's obviously an upgraded LoC, why doesn't he cost more?

That is weird actually. They're identical, except Typhus has a Pistol and an extra buff and is a Psyker, but he is 20 points less.

I wonder if it is because they have the LoC's sword a points value of 45, when he is the only person to have it. Usually those kind of weapons are valued at 0, as the points of the unit is taken into account as a whole. That would make LoC 139 points, which is more like it. Relative to Typhus, at least.

Niiru wrote:
On a seperate topic, though not sure I'd get an answer here as its more Daemons related ...

I'm considering the Dameonic options available as a small addition to the army, and I'm wondering which is actually more useful gift to have -

Tzeentch's +1 to invulnverable save, giving a 4++

Nurgle's FNP, giving a 5+++ on top of a 5++


I would have thought it would be Nurgle, as you get two attempts, but this would be on a multi-wound daemon and I believe FNP is pretty bad with multi-damage weapons as you have to roll a 5+++ for every single *damage*, not just the wound.

Is there some maths somewhere for this?

Niiru wrote:
On a seperate topic, though not sure I'd get an answer here as its more Daemons related ...

I'm considering the Dameonic options available as a small addition to the army, and I'm wondering which is actually more useful gift to have -

Tzeentch's +1 to invulnverable save, giving a 4++

Nurgle's FNP, giving a 5+++ on top of a 5++


I would have thought it would be Nurgle, as you get two attempts, but this would be on a multi-wound daemon and I believe FNP is pretty bad with multi-damage weapons as you have to roll a 5+++ for every single *damage*, not just the wound.

Is there some maths somewhere for this?

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Switching gears, I know that the Kharybdis is a pretty solid delivery system for Chaos units, but what about the Dreadclaw? Unlike the Kharybdis I can easily make a Dreadclaw out of a standard Drop Pod kit, so I was wondering if it's worth it to bring one of these things. My first impression is that it's a little expensive for what it does, but at the same time it can bring in a 10-man squad of Berzerkers and give them a decent chance of making a charge if they have an Icon of Wrath (practically mandatory on Berzerkers). Plus, if I'm not mistaken it can carry a Helbrute instead of a squad, so there's that.

mario88826 wrote:

Niiru wrote:
On a seperate topic, though not sure I'd get an answer here as its more Daemons related ...

I'm considering the Dameonic options available as a small addition to the army, and I'm wondering which is actually more useful gift to have -

Tzeentch's +1 to invulnverable save, giving a 4++

Nurgle's FNP, giving a 5+++ on top of a 5++


I would have thought it would be Nurgle, as you get two attempts, but this would be on a multi-wound daemon and I believe FNP is pretty bad with multi-damage weapons as you have to roll a 5+++ for every single *damage*, not just the wound.

Is there some maths somewhere for this?

5+ FNP is substantially better. For 2 reasons :
1. You can ignore mortal wounds actually, when invu save doesn't provide such luxury. That alone is enough , but also...
2. 5+ after 5+ in simple math reduces expected value of received damage by 55,5% against 50% of 4+ invu. Simple math.

It's also not really truth that mutli wound targets make FNP worse. In fact it's more consistent and reliable. When talking about statistics - the more chances you take the more result gets closer to "expected value". So as example I can show you simple example:

You got wounded on lets say 10 W model with attack that deals flat 6 damage . While 4+ invul give you 1/2 to take 6 take or take 0 damage - FNP works more reliable. To be wounded for exactly 6 damage you have to fail 6 4+ so it's (1/2) ^6 so around 1,5% if my math is not off.

So in fact it's not actually so reliable on luck ! That being said expected value of damage you receive is still same for both cases - invu and FNP.

Another worth mentioning fact in favour of FNP is that while many demons often don't have high normal saves - then still some like Daemon prince - rock 3+ saves that they may use along with FNP , when you can only save once using normal save or INVU, So in such case against low AP weapons invu is kinda wasted, when FNP still helps you mitigate more damage.

Hope that helps.

PS that doesn't justify THAT high DG point values i was speaking about. Though sure should increase - but not 50% ish percent ffs.

Edit : though last extra note - when you can have FNP or invu on low wound model - there actually invu works better. Because on lets say plague marine - it's hard to pass 5+ FNP 3 times (around 3,7% to do so ) vs 33,3% to pass single invu test. But then again if they shoot multi wound weapons on your 1 W models - then it's already somewhat victory for you . Also damn again proves that Plague Marine IS NOT more resilient than Primaris marine against multi wound hits.
Generally speaking FNP always change format of damage you take into mutliple separate wounds instead of big hits.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
The 5+ FNP is slightly better than the 4++.

4++ WITH Changeling is better than the 5+ FNP.

5+ FNP with a -1 to be hit is better than 4++ with Changeling.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Scabby, the Nurgle Greater Daemon, gives -1 Aura to the Fight Phase.

Niiru wrote:



The models in question are Chaos Spawn and Giant Chaos Spawn, so they are both low toughness (T5, which is low for multiwound) and multiple wounds (4W and 10W). So I guess in this case you'd recommend the 5+++ FNP over the 4++ invulnerable?

Niiru wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
The 5+ FNP is slightly better than the 4++.

4++ WITH Changeling is better than the 5+ FNP.

5+ FNP with a -1 to be hit is better than 4++ with Changeling.

Isn't the only way to get a 5+ FNP with a -1 to hit the Alpha Legion trait? Which chaos spawn dont get access to anyway. And they can only get changeling buff if they are Tzeentch, and so it would have to be a choice between either 4++ with -1 to hit, or 5++/5+++ with no hit penalties.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
The 5+ FNP is slightly better than the 4++.

4++ WITH Changeling is better than the 5+ FNP.

5+ FNP with a -1 to be hit is better than 4++ with Changeling.

Isn't the only way to get a 5+ FNP with a -1 to hit the Alpha Legion trait? Which chaos spawn dont get access to anyway. And they can only get changeling buff if they are Tzeentch, and so it would have to be a choice between either 4++ with -1 to hit, or 5++/5+++ with no hit penalties.

There's a Nurgle psychic power which gives a -1 to hit.

mario88826 wrote:

Niiru wrote:



The models in question are Chaos Spawn and Giant Chaos Spawn, so they are both low toughness (T5, which is low for multiwound) and multiple wounds (4W and 10W). So I guess in this case you'd recommend the 5+++ FNP over the 4++ invulnerable?

5++ along with 5+ FNP is for sure better than 4++ invu. But 5+ FNP alone without invu ain't superior to 4++ invu save. What is strenght of nurgle demons is they can combine both invu and FNP. Particulary plaguebearers with numbers over 20 are extremelly hard to deal with.
-1 to hit in both CC and against ranged units , 4T , 5++ invu, 5+ FNP after. For just 7 points seems like good deal(though thier offensive abilites are gak).

Back to your question - idk about normal spawn if it benefits from mark. But on Great Chaos Spawn FNP sure is better than any other option - despite its relative low Toughness it's really hard to take down something with 10 wounds , 5+ invu , 5+ fnp on top of that and it heals itself .
5T may seem like low - but i disagree. This is enough to stop power fists and lascannons from wounding you on 2+. This alone makes it not much worse than T7 actually !!
And i suspect chaos spawn is better of with FNP too.

Niiru wrote:

mario88826 wrote:

Niiru wrote:



The models in question are Chaos Spawn and Giant Chaos Spawn, so they are both low toughness (T5, which is low for multiwound) and multiple wounds (4W and 10W). So I guess in this case you'd recommend the 5+++ FNP over the 4++ invulnerable?

5++ along with 5+ FNP is for sure better than 4++ invu. But 5+ FNP alone without invu ain't superior to 4++ invu save. What is strenght of nurgle demons is they can combine both invu and FNP. Particulary plaguebearers with numbers over 20 are extremelly hard to deal with.
-1 to hit in both CC and against ranged units , 4T , 5++ invu, 5+ FNP after. For just 7 points seems like good deal(though thier offensive abilites are gak).

Back to your question - idk about normal spawn if it benefits from mark. But on Great Chaos Spawn FNP sure is better than any other option - despite its relative low Toughness it's really hard to take down something with 10 wounds , 5+ invu , 5+ fnp on top of that and it heals itself .
5T may seem like low - but i disagree. This is enough to stop power fists and lascannons from wounding you on 2+. This alone makes it not much worse than T7 actually !!
And i suspect chaos spawn is better of with FNP too.

You're right actually, normal Spawn don't get the Allegience bonus, so no FNP for them, just the Giant Spawn. Normal Spawn also dont get legion traits, unfortunately. So the only buffs I could give them would be from a changeling (I'd never get scabiethrax, he's a hugely expensive lord of war and I dont generally use those haha).

Tzeentch is looking like a frontrunner at the moment, though slaneesh is also a close contender (expecially as it helps open up noise marines as troops)